sistermagpie: Classic magpie (Me and my boyfriend.)
([personal profile] sistermagpie Sep. 4th, 2005 05:58 pm)
I just really wanted a subject line that was all letters.

But it is relevant. Oddly, I found myself thinking about the state of H/D post-HBP. I can't begin to cover all of it, but I was thinking about one of the ways in which HBP seemed so H/D-friendly. That is, not anything to do with sexual attraction, but just that of all the standard H/D ideas it picked up on,

H/D-ers have often been accused of wrongly claiming Draco is Harry's equal or opposite number or shadow, and it's true that within the terms of the narrative, we're not talking about these two boys in equal or opposing positions. Characters, as I've said before, tend to have many different reflections and shadows in many different characters, and you can't just pair them up and say these two are go together. HBP brought out parallels between Harry and Snape, Snape and Voldemort, Harry and Snape, Harry and Voldemort, etc. People have, for instance, often argued that it's not Harry and Draco who are foils or opposites, but Draco and Ron, and they're right in all the ways they compare those two characters. It's just that there are some ways that Draco is more like Ron than Harry, and some ways he's more like Harry than Ron. He performs both these jobs from his own, unique position.

So here's the H/D thing. One of the things that's always been an H/D staple is the idea that as Harry is the boy most important by the side of the Order, so is Draco the boy most important to the DE side. Both are born into positions where they're going to be important. It's just that before, Harry's position on the good side was always obvious while Draco was intentionally frozen out of the other side. However, even while Draco was frozen out I don't think H/D-ers were completely off in thinking of him in a more important position since even before he had anything asked of him he saw himself in a position of some responsibility that way. He wanted that position. He feels he should help the Heir of Slytherin, tries to speak to Harry as one important student to another, tries to act as emissary from the Dark Side.

In HBP he is finally put in that position--and happily, it ceases to have anything to do with Harry and everything to do with his position and test. Unlike Harry, Draco has grown up knowing his position and eagerly awaiting this opportunity. Like Harry, he has no choice in the matter. Just as Harry's job comes down to the actions of his parents, so does Draco's. He has no more choice than Harry about his predicament, as he finds out all too soon--probably in earlier years he would have been frankly jealous of Harry's fate. It just sounds so much cooler when you're not living it. This sets Draco also apart from Ron, who while connected to the Good Fight through his father is not a personal target of Voldemort's and is not the only son or child. Also, Ron seems to just have an attitude about this sort of thing that's a little more modern-or sane-than Harry or Draco.

Where the H/D comes into this is that this is something that Harry understands that other characters, including Ron and Hermione, don't. H/D has often taken note of Draco's words to Harry in PoA about Sirius, how "if it were his parents" he'd want Sirius dead. Ron claims Draco's just trying to get Harry to do something stupid and he's right, but he's also speaking Harry's language and really not lying. If it were his parents he *would* feel that way. His relationship to them is just not exactly the same type as Ron's with his parents or Hermione's with hers. I believe Harry's way of describing this conversation is even to say, "Malfoy knows."

In his hilarious read-through of HBP, [livejournal.com profile] mike_smith says this of Harry's attempts to tell Arthur Weasley about Draco the Death Eater:

And yet, when Harry Potter--The CHOSEN ONE--voices his very real, very rational, and very sensible opinion on the Death Eaters, no one believes him.... But Rowling can't have it both ways. Either Harry's the Chosen One or he's not. You can't have him be hassled by adoring fans and overzealous security guards one minute, then turn around and have him be the poor insignificant boy nobody believes until it's too late. I mean, you can, but it demands that characters like Arthur be made to appear even stupider than they already do.


So leaving the believability of this shift behind a moment, let's search for the reason given in canon for nobody believing Harry about Draco. It's not so much that people don't believe him, exactly, because Ron and Hermione know for a fact that Draco's up to something. Harry isn't basing this completely on paranoia--he hears him imply he's got a special mission. Arthur does send someone to search the Malfoy house. So what is it that they don't believe?

Well, again to quote [livejournal.com profile] mike_smith: "What's stupid about this is that they're talking to the prophesied "Chosen One" who himself is only sixteen, and they've seen him have nuttier adventures before this that would make Death Eater membership look positively tame, I'd think."

Yes, that is stupid, isn't it? Harry himself is 16, yet Voldemort has declared him his nemesis. He even insisted on dueling with him in GoF. Sure he was trying to humiliate him in that time-honored Evil-Overlord-About-To-Get-His-Arse-Handed-To-Him way, but clearly age isn't always a factor for this guy. It is for the adults in the Order. It just seems funny to think of Draco being taken seriously that way. Even Dumbledore, who knows of the plan, sees it as something easily controlled from a distance. It never occurs to him to really worry that Draco could do any damage to him or the school, or that there's anything beyond this pathetic attempt on his own life. Ron and Hermione, despite being that age themselves as well as participants in those nuttier adventures, automatically have the same attitude. Sure when they were 12 they could imagine Malfoy could have let a basilisk loose. But they're teenagers now. Teenagers they've gotten use to the fact that adults think of them as kids. Ron couldn't imagine Dumbledore giving him some secret mission, or even Hermione.

That's where Harry's unique perspective comes in. It's not just that he's a kid and therefore takes other kids seriously--as we see, that's not always the case. It's more, I think, that he more understands that Draco's position is not completely different from his own. He knows what it's like to take yourself seriously in that context at that age. He might have been taunting Draco last year, but now that he's turned off the capslock he seems to see the situation a bit more clearly--you take out someone's father, you create a vengeful Inigo Montoya (or in Draco's case, the Hamlet of Hogwarts). That understanding, even before Draco makes it clear that yes, he is operating more on Harry's level now and will show it by hexing him and stomping on him) makes Harry look at him differently, gives Draco more dignity (once he gets away from his mother). It leads to Harry really dealing with him in a whole different way, for the first time using his own experiences to help him understand what Draco is doing when in the past he always assumed that whatever Draco was doing was exactly the opposite of what Harry would be doing.

It's part of the whole slashy vibe of HBP, I think, because it gives Harry and understanding about and with Draco that no one else shares, you know? One that's not just about what Draco is up to but him as a person under that pressure. It just happens that this is, understandably, something that H/D has played with a lot, especially some of the longer H/D's. It's different than just Draco joining up with the DEs or being Dudley at school. It's the closest thing canon gives us to another boy in a similar situation. Not the same situation by any means, and one with completely different choices to be made, but in the end some of the same responsibilities--the future of that side. Which is not to say that these two boys are the only people of any consequence on either side, of course. It's more just that they are both more likely to think of themselves in those terms. It's only after HBP that they are both at the place where they can make the decision of which course they should take about that. Draco isn't in the leadership position Harry is, although he could be a different kind of leader on his side (so all that "holding court" stuff will not be in vain). But even if he isn't, that doesn't matter. It's still about him making a decision for the side he represents, which is slightly different, even, than the H/D fics that gave us a solitary Draco on the side of good, in the position of Ron or Hermione only less trusted. That Draco usually wasn't ever given the responsibilities the canon Draco has been.

HBP, for the first time, put Harry in the position of watching someone struggle and change, even if he didn't understand what he was seeing. The important thing is that he knew he was seeing something.

p.s. My allergies are driving me crazy.

p.p.s. Unrelated but also about HP, why does it seem like everyone is very quick to assume that the writing in the HBP book could be Lily's, because she was so great in Potions and was helping Snape? Couldn't the joke be that Lily was a Potions genius just like Harry was--because she was getting help from the HBP? Slughorn makes it clear that he's more apt to praise you if he likes you personally, for either personal or political reasons. Plus, does "Just shove a bezoar down his throat" sound more like Snape or Lily? And did Lily create Sectumsempra and write it in Snape's book with the direction "for enemies?"
Tags:

From: [identity profile] nutcrazical.livejournal.com


I'm not a H/D shipper, but that's a good analysis(sp?) of things :D *takes notes*

That whole thing of people assuming Lily wrote the notes on the HBP's book? I hate it, because it's so incredibly insulting to Snape. Grrr. C'mon, Snape being an excellent Potionmaker is canon - why make a case against it?

The only thing that would made me doubt is the Just shove a bezoar down his throat comment; when I read it, it just screamed "Lily" (or rather, "Ginny") to me. But Harry insists the rest of the notes he's read sound like a bloke's...

When Hermione insisted that the handwriting looked girly to her, I thought she was having a little feminist moment. >.>
ext_6866: (Good point.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Heh--that's funny because I could just *hear* Snape growling, "Just shove a bezoar down his throat." But I could see Ginny saying it too, now you mention it.

It really does seem kind of insulting to Snape, who does seem to be an *exceptional* Potions maker, to assume he needed this written out for him. It makes much more sense given Snape's personality that this was the type of thing he'd do, I think.

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From: [identity profile] gillieweed.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-09-05 04:18 pm (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] iczer6.livejournal.com


When Hermione insisted that the handwriting looked girly to her, I thought she was having a little feminist moment. >.>

That was my take.

Of course now I'm wondering is Snape just has a girly writing style, which makes me envision him dotting his 'I's with hearts which is an *odd* mental image.

From: [identity profile] sarahtales.livejournal.com


I heart Mike Smith's reviews, too. *beams*

Oh, yes. I love that they're so - in the same place emotionally. In a way. (Draco is clearly far more screamingly afraid.) Perhaps that's why Dumbledore paid attention to both of them in a way he didn't the other students. They're all epic, even though Draco may be Hamlet and Harry is much more like... hm. Bolingbroke? (quits with her Shakespeare analogies while she's ahead.) I love that Harry's *in a position* - turned towards Draco - to see more of him, even if he doesn't see that much. It might be enough.

I also just have wild random love for Draco with responsibilities. (and with the Slytherins, damn it!) I loved it that we segued into Harry's new opinion on Draco with Draco's friends clearly missing him, in spite of any letting psychotic werewolves into the school he'd been doing.

I have not heard that Lily theory. Um. Harry might've noticed that different handwriting between the name and the notes, for one thing.
ext_6866: (Me and my boyfriend.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Oh, yes. I love that they're so - in the same place emotionally. In a way. (Draco is clearly far more screamingly afraid.)

And for good reason! I mean, he's really *right* to keep Crabbe and Goyle out of it as much as possible. Ron and Hermione know what they're getting into with Harry. I suspect with Draco he started out wanting to do it all himself, and even if he needed help didn't want it to be a group project. Then once it became a nightmare it was too horrible to tell his friends--it's the type of thing Harry does all the time, too. Plus all the guys on Draco's side are the very people he's afraid of!

I also just have wild random love for Draco with responsibilities. (and with the Slytherins, damn it!) I loved it that we segued into Harry's new opinion on Draco with Draco's friends clearly missing him, in spite of any letting psychotic werewolves into the school he'd been doing.

Harry's totally learned to get his priorities right. Crabbe and Goyle look lonely! Wah!

I have now shoved Bag Balm around my nose because it was all dry and itchy. That is so not something you want up your nose.

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From: [identity profile] slinkhard.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-09-05 05:28 pm (UTC) - Expand
ext_150: (Default)

From: [identity profile] kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com


...People think Lily was helping Snape? I just...why? What sense does that make?
ext_6866: (Might as well be in Chinese)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I've seen it several times in different places now and I don't really get it. It's basically just the idea that Lily was such a Potions genius that if she and Snape were friends (or Snape loved her, etc.) she was probably helping him and called him the HBP because he had no friends in Slytherin. She was just the everything for him!
tiferet: cute girl in pink dress captioned "not all bad girls wear black" (waaah!)

From: [personal profile] tiferet


It makes about as much sense as the idea that Snape and Lily were in love, and it's usually the same people saying it.

From: [identity profile] closingtime101.livejournal.com


What's this Lily thing? I thought it was made very clear that the Prince, or rather Severus, wrote down all those curses himself. First I've heard of this.
ext_6866: (Might as well be in Chinese)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Yes, I thought it was clear too. But I've read several suggestions that Lily was the one writing the good Potions notes--and since there's no difference in the handwriting that would mean she wrote the curses as well, though I don't think that's the idea.

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From: [identity profile] yamato--ishida.livejournal.com


Great essay! You're right that many H/D shipper used the idea of Draco being in many ways Harry's opposite and HBP used that idea as well, so it looks like the H/D shippers have been on the right track for a while.

In HBP both characters realize what their future role is going to be. Others have planned it out for them, but "there's a difference between getting dragged into the arena and walking into it proudly with your head held high." And both embrace their destiny.

Harry is Dumbledore's man.

Draco is Voldemort's.
ext_6866: (Maybe I'm wrong.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Heh--well, at least he's Voldemort's in the beginning of the year. Then it's more like, "Oh well, I guess I'm Voldemort's. Dammit. Can I get a recount?" ;-)

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From: [identity profile] mondegreen.livejournal.com


It's more, I think, that he more understands that Draco's position is not completely different from his own.

So true. The Voldemort-Dumbledore parallels emphasize the Draco-Harry parallels even more. Both boys are on a mission to kill the older men. Both are being manipulated for the older mens' separate causes (Dumbles isn't so blatant about it; oddly, I respect Voldemort for his ability to admit he's a user). Personally, I saw the Draco-Ron parallels more pre-HBP. Now, however, I see the Harry-Draco parallels. And this makes me very happy.

or in Draco's case, the Hamlet of Hogwarts

This parallel always makes me uneasy. Partly because it makes so much sense, and partly because Draco might do something drastically Hamlet-like. Like, you know. Die. The Regulus-Draco parallels make me uneasy in the same way.

And the whole Lily-Snape theory? Um. No.

And did Lily create Sectumsempra and write it in Snape's book with the direction "for enemies?"

You're very right. Also, you can argue that Snape had to have created Sectumsempra, because he used it on James in OotP. You know, when he slashed James's cheek in "Snape's Worst Memory." But now that I think about it, I wonder how Lily reacted to that curse. I don't remember what she said at that point -- if she said anything to indicate that she knew what the spell was. Bah. I don't have access to OotP, unfortunately.

From: [identity profile] hellspoette.livejournal.com


Dumbles isn't so blatant about it; oddly, I respect Voldemort for his ability to admit he's a user

But he doesn't, though. That's the secret to his success. He's a sociopath that has no qualms about manipulating and using people to the fullest extent he can maange, and because of that he manages to charm the hell out of his followers and, as Dumbledore said, make each individual believe that THEY alone are his most cherished friend and loyal servant. The DEs in their way think they are following a noble cause; Voldemort is a half-blood, and I don't think he cares so much about the wizarding-blood cause as he cares about how it can be twisted to keep him alive and in power.

I re-read OotP not that long ago... I don't think Lily reacted to that curse specifically, and it may have just been a slashing curse of some sort, not necessarily Sectumsempra, which yields more immediate and violent results. I don't think it's something Snape would've chosen to use in broad daylight on the Hogwarts grounds with many witnesses looking on, even if James was the target.

I also am nervous about the Regulus-Draco and Hamlet-Draco parallels. Very, very worried.

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From: [identity profile] desultory6.livejournal.com


First, the Lily stuff.

I don't understand where the Lily writing, in the book thing came from. To me it seems more like wishful thinking than anything else. I personally think that Snape would have fairly elegant writing; he is fairly meticulous.

Personally I don't see Snape being in love with Lily (or vise versa) either. I do, however, like the idea of them having something akin to friendship at one point. It's not that there is much (or possibly any) evidence in canon to support their friendship so much that it would be interesting. It is a nice idea that they were friends once. It is something that gives them a bit more depth. Depth is something that Snape probably doesn't need any more of.

The beazor thing sounds more like Snape to me.

Now, the H/D. (I'm replying in a strange order)

I've never shipped H/D, but while reading the HBP I was silently cheering for H/D fans. Even though I don't ship H/D, the ship makes sense to me. My avoidance of the pairing is mostly attributed to the scary amount of bad H/D fic.

That being said, in the books their interaction has always been intriguing to me. In the first book I thought they would end up as friends. That theory didn't pan out.

Everything you wrote is making me think of what role Draco could have in the last book.

I found it oddly chilling that Dumbledore gave Draco hope, but seconds later that hope was snatched away by Snape, the one person Draco has left to protect him.

Whether or not Draco knows it Harry is the only person left (besides himself) that knows what happened on the tower. It puts them on an even playing field which is a first in the books. At the end of the HBP it is the closest they have ever been to equal. It will be interesting to see how all of that works out.

Thanks for the meta it has got me thinking. When I have the time I'm going to check out what other meta you have.

I hope the allergies clear up soon. Allergies = not fun.

Just letting you know that I'm going to friend you.

From: [identity profile] hellspoette.livejournal.com

speaking of many abbreviations


I personally think that Snape would have fairly elegant writing; he is fairly meticulous.

It's described in HBP as small & cramped; that was the clue early in the book that made me sure Snape was the HBP, because in OoTP we see him writing his DADA O.W.L., and his writing is described as small & cramped. However, one's handwriting may change slightly as they get older, and I don't think JKR ever went far in describing it before as anything other than "spidery". I may be mistaken there, but if memory serves...

I found it oddly chilling that Dumbledore gave Draco hope, but seconds later that hope was snatched away by Snape, the one person Draco has left to protect him.

I don't know about that. It gets complicated and muzzy, but I don't think Draco would view it that way. There was no way Dumbledore was going to get out of that scene alive... if Snape hadn't finished him off, the other DEs (who arrived before Snape) would've, and then it would have been on Draco's head. It may still be. We shall see. I'm not going to get into the "omg iz Snape innocent guyz?!" argument at this point because JKR wrote it in such a way as to be ambiguous and it's been argued to death by now. Sigh sigh sigh. Still, there is definite symbolism there. It's this constant disturbing father-figure rotation JKR has going on.

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From: [identity profile] seductivedark.livejournal.com


There always has been something between Harry and Draco. I saw it as a rivalry that went beyond their houses. They bumped up against each other the wrong way from the start, and they're both forceful personalities. It's often like the scene from a movie where the two protagonists are fighting, they get closer, then suddenly they're lip-locked. They do have a lot in common. And IMO, Harry can use that, if he finds Draco in book 7, to try and sway him to the Order side.

On Lily writing those notations: Hogwash. I've seen enough of the 'And maybe Snape had regrets because of his love (should I say 'lurve' here?) for Lily...' that I'm sick of seeing Lily's name. IMO, she did have a thing for James, even in the pensieve moment, only she didn't want less than a noble man so wasn't 'in lurve' at that time.

Snape's the Potions Master at the school. He knows what he's doing. And he was loner enough, and probably geeky enough, to devour books on the subjects he liked. Those may or may not have been his own innovations, but they definitely came from his research if he didn't outright create them. Boosting Lily and beating down Snape for the sake of a SSLE storyline is doing neither one a service, but most of all, the so-called hero of their tales is being made into a cheating little snit who can't do squat without his Big Bad Mama-girl holding his hand. IMO, it cheapens the relationship they promote by cheapening its leading man.

All right, maybe Snape did have a crush on Lily at one time. Most people I knew in high school had crushes on lots of people before settling down with one One-&-Only. He might have had a crush on Narcissa, too. And on the ever-elusive Florence. A crush is not the same thing as a full-blown case of either requited or unrequited love; it goes away sooner rather than later; it's often embarrassing to remember it later on; it usually doesn't inform how someone will grow up or how they act once they're in their thirties.

Yes, I could go on. I won't. But I do hope JKR addresses this, just to either confirm or deny. Any more, just the phrase 'Snape and Lily' is like fingernails on a blackboard.
ext_6866: (Pica loquax certa dominum te voce saluto)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


It's often like the scene from a movie where the two protagonists are fighting, they get closer, then suddenly they're lip-locked. They do have a lot in common. And IMO, Harry can use that, if he finds Draco in book 7, to try and sway him to the Order side.

Absolutely! And it really seems like that's one of the main things propelling us into the next book.

Boosting Lily and beating down Snape for the sake of a SSLE storyline is doing neither one a service, but most of all, the so-called hero of their tales is being made into a cheating little snit who can't do squat without his Big Bad Mama-girl holding his hand. IMO, it cheapens the relationship they promote by cheapening its leading man.

That really does seem like that way to me too. As strange as it sounds, it almost seems like Lily is cheated since she hasn't "earned" any of this skill, it's just heaped on her. With Snape we see him actually being good at this stuff and being interested in it--and sometimes failing at it too. I would really hate it if Snape was mostly motivated by some sort of romantic love, especially for the girl who seemed to always love the jerk who harassed him.

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From: [identity profile] seductivedark.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-09-06 02:04 am (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] meganinhiding.livejournal.com


I like the Draco and Hamlet that I've seen mentioned a few times on LJ. After all, how do we know that Hamlet wasn't prat at times before his father's murder made him grow up fast. I really do wish that the books had been told from the POV of a few characters from each of the houses instead of just one person but then the books would have been called Hogwarts instead of Harry Potter; besides that's what fanfic is for.
I have not come across any theories about Lily Sue writing the potions tips and I'm glad. As said before it detracts from Snape and makes her more inhumanly perfect. If there's going to be a revelation about her in Book Seven I hope that she turns out to be an undercover Deatheater like Irina Derevko in Alias. Hope the allergies improve.
ext_6866: (I'm looking at you)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Heh--I can easily imagine Hamlet being a complete prat at Draco's age. As it is he's 33 and seems to still not know what he wants to do with his life!

Heh--I would love the Alias route. Like I said above, it seems somehow like Snape has "earned" his Potions expertise more, whereas it just makes Lily incredibly perfect. I can't buy it.

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From: [identity profile] slinkhard.livejournal.com


I'll reply properly later, but someone suggested somewhere on lj that Harry might not be taken seriously with all his Draco ravings because he lost some credibility in the OotP wild goose chase.
I doubt this, since it's a) too sensible for Rowling and b) reflects poorly on him; rather than the 'OMG Harry is so alone and martyred, no-one's listening to him' redux we got. But still, makes sense.
ext_6866: (Wha...?)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I hadn't heard that about OotP Harry. It doesn't really work for me, though, since it's not like Harry was really wrong in OotP. He was wrong for not listening to Hermione, but he was seeing exactly what he thought he was seeing in his head, and Voldemort was doing something. It seems more like she just needed a reason for Harry to do this alone--which is at least a blessing. Can you imagine if Hermione had been along for the ride on the Draco storyline? It would have driven me insane.

From: [identity profile] nellie-darlin.livejournal.com


Fab analysis. I loved HBP for the fact it made Draco into a much more 3D character. You know, he was interesting before, but there was always a bit of "I'll get you, Potter," about him. He was a bit flat, a bit one-dimensional. But HBP made him complicated, made him ambiguous, made him human.

One thing you could add is that one of the reasons why Harry and Draco get "closer" during HBP is because Harry starts to come to terms with his own Slytherin qualities. (Someone may already have suggested this, but I haven't read the comments.) Harry is definitely a Gryffindor, but he has a Slytherin side that emerges properly in this book. This is all part of Harry growing up, of course, but it has the added advantage of making not just Draco, but Harry more ambiguous.
ext_6866: (Two for joy of talking)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks! And yes, I totally agree with Harry and his Slytherin qualities in HBP. I love the way he stops being afraid to identify with the different Slytherins and just talk about them like other students instead of feeling like he has to show how different he is than they are. He starts giving all of them more credit for being human, and it makes Harry more interesting too.

From: [identity profile] khilari.livejournal.com


I think you're right that Draco is more on Harry's level now. The position they're left in is interesting, because Dumbledore came so close to saving Draco and now he's not there to help. It seems like it's down to Harry, that this is one of the responsibilities he's been left. But to help Draco now he's going to have to learn to reach out to someone, and he's never done that before. Even with Ron and Hermione it's them reaching out to Harry.

I know Draco's got lessons to learn as well, and resources of his own to use. But I think it's mostly going to be about what Harry needs to learn, and Draco will be imporant in that.
ext_6866: (Watching and waiting)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I think you're right that Draco is more on Harry's level now. The position they're left in is interesting, because Dumbledore came so close to saving Draco and now he's not there to help. It seems like it's down to Harry, that this is one of the responsibilities he's been left. But to help Draco now he's going to have to learn to reach out to someone, and he's never done that before. Even with Ron and Hermione it's them reaching out to Harry.

Yes, that's totally what it seems like. It's like they were both left with just enough to make them be able to come together, but they have to do it themselves, make that decision themselves. I could see it going either way, but it really seems like there needs to be one hell of a climax to this relationship, whichever way it goes.

From: [identity profile] q-spade.livejournal.com


One of the things that's always been an H/D staple is the idea that as Harry is the boy most important by the side of the Order, so is Draco the boy most important to the DE side. Both are born into positions where they're going to be important. It's just that before, Harry's position on the good side was always obvious while Draco was intentionally frozen out of the other side.

I agree that Draco was "frozen out"...most likely by his own parents, who knew what being a Death Eater was actually like. It doesn't seem as if Lucius actually trained Draco, or prepared him for initiation. And Narcissa's actions in Chapter 2 of HPB make it clear that this is NOT the fate she had in mind for her only son.

Harry, on the other hand, is being raised not by parents but by a series of guardians who either actively hate and fear him (the Dursleys) or make cool use of him as a pawn in a larger game (Dumbledore). There's no primal sense of love or protection there, the way there is with Narcissa and (perhaps even) Lucius towards Draco.

...why does it seem like everyone is very quick to assume that the writing in the HBP book could be Lily's, because she was so great in Potions and was helping Snape?

Whoa, I've not heard that theory before. o_0

I have heard that the "girly" handwriting could have been Eileen Prince's (as per Hermione's suggestion), and that she bequeathed the book to her son. But honestly, I think Snape's proven throughout the series that he's more than capable of doing his own grunt work, no matter how dirty. ;) The ideas – and the funny handwriting! – are his and his alone, IMO.
ext_6866: (100% Ravenclaw)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Harry, on the other hand, is being raised not by parents but by a series of guardians who either actively hate and fear him (the Dursleys) or make cool use of him as a pawn in a larger game (Dumbledore). There's no primal sense of love or protection there, the way there is with Narcissa and (perhaps even) Lucius towards Draco.

Yes--one could look at ways in which each boy has the advantage and the disadvantage that way. I've always thought it was really important, for instance, that Harry was completely against the Dursleys always. They were cruel to him, but he always had the idea of good parents who loved him and never wanted to be like the Dursleys. Also they never gave him any hope of being accepted, so he wasn't getting mixed signals.

I thought the same thing about the handwriting--I think small and cramped are the same as we hear in OotP--perhaps that's a big reason why JKR had Harry look at Snape's paper. If he'd seen big loopy handwriting back then we'd know the handwriting wasn't his.

From: [identity profile] hellspoette.livejournal.com


DELIGHTFUL post, m'dear, delightful. I just have to sit back and enjoy your quite accurate thought processes. I'm such a H/D 'shipper at this point, there's no getting around it. I want to see those silly hair-contrasting boys touch each other in a sexual manner, damn it all. It's painful, though; if H&D were opposite genders, you could bet your bottom dollar that one of those lips-drawn-together-in-the-heat-of-the-argument would decidedly manifest itself in Book 7, with Harry seeking out the mythic female-Draco and drawing "her" to the side of good once and for all. Perhaps if it was Philip Pullman or Neil Gaiman writing the series, or if it was a television show as scripted by Joss Whedon, I could have a valid hope of canon-Harry and Draco actually getting together in a 'shippy way. As it is, I can't imagine JKR actually writing it in Book 7. It would be fairly awesome, though. I mean, all these fundamentalist weirdos are out there calling HP "Satanic" and what have you; I say put a cat amongst the pigeons and REALLY give them something to cry about.
ext_6866: (Me and my boyfriend.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thank you!

I want to see those silly hair-contrasting boys touch each other in a sexual manner, damn it all.

This should be on a tee-shirt!

And yes, if these two were opposite genders just *try* to keep them apart. Every review would probably have something about how obviously the real chemistry was between these two. Personally, I'd rather see this thrown in too--cat amongst the pigeons! Yes! Watch the feathers fly!


From: [identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com


This is another really excellent post, and you say a lot that makes sense to me about why HBP has such an H/D vibe even when one takes any subtext of erotic attraction out of the equation.

That's where Harry's unique perspective comes in. It's not just that he's a kid and therefore takes other kids seriously--as we see, that's not always the case. It's more, I think, that he more understands that Draco's position is not completely different from his own. He knows what it's like to take yourself seriously in that context at that age. He might have been taunting Draco last year, but now that he's turned off the capslock he seems to see the situation a bit more clearly--you take out someone's father, you create a vengeful Inigo Montoya (or in Draco's case, the Hamlet of Hogwarts).

And I loved it that Harry specifically acknowledges this when he first starts developing his theory that Draco's up to something; he makes a point of saying something about Lucius' imprisonment to Ron and Hermione. The reason it worked for me was two-fold: First, it was continuous from OotP and acknowledged that at the end of that book, Draco had a reason for truly *hating* Harry. Not just disliking him or wanting to annoy him, but hating him. And it's a reason that goes beyond "Harry snubbed him that one time back in first year." Secondly, I liked it that *Harry* wasn't so arrogant and full of himself that he just assumed he didn't need to take Malfoy seriously, despite the whole Inego Montoya aspect, merely because it was Malfoy. Harry took it seriously because it's something he can identify with - "You did something to my parent(s); I'll make you suffer for it" - and because he realized that it's something that would make Malfoy get serious. Now, sure, Harry ultimately had no idea that Draco's actual assignment didn't have anything to do with Draco getting revenge for Lucius (even though Draco did get that revenge, on the train), but the point is harry took Draco seriously enough to pay attention and watch and try to figure things out. And because Harry took Draco seriously, he had the presence of mind to come up with a contingency plan on that fateful night that actually *did* save lives.
ext_6866: (Me and my boyfriend.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks!

And I loved it that Harry specifically acknowledges this when he first starts developing his theory that Draco's up to something; he makes a point of saying something about Lucius' imprisonment to Ron and Hermione.

Yes, and it makes sense that they don't quite get it instinctively the way he does. But it's really even a big step for Harry to think Draco is trying to take his father's place rather than just trying to get back at him, for instance. In OotP he's still assuming that Malfoy is up to everything bad that happens to him. Sure in HBP he's also thinking Malfoy is behind everything, but it makes more sense there. He knows Draco's up to something and doesn't yet know what, so it makes sense he wouldn't rule anything out. Once he starts thinking of Draco along those lines, he starts seeing more of him.

And yes, he winds up being the one person to make a plan that night that addresses the cabinet somehow.

From: [identity profile] firebird5.livejournal.com


Very thought-provoking essay, as always. You're right; there is a lot that's H/D-friendliness in HBP with Draco's more multi-dimensional characterisation and Harry's relating to Draco as an almost equal. I'm glad, because it's canon and JKR did it well and I can respect that, even though I don't like H/D. I can see how it's good for the story, and the characterisation of the two. I thought the bathroom scene was fantastic, as was that Sectumsempra and the remorse Harry felt afterwards. (There are some things I don't think she did well, and weren't very good for the story, that worry me more -- but which have nothing to do with Draco.)

One of the things that's always been an H/D staple is the idea that as Harry is the boy most important by the side of the Order, so is Draco the boy most important to the DE side. [...] I don't think H/D-ers were completely off in thinking of him in a more important position since even before he had anything asked of him he saw himself in a position of some responsibility that way.

I agree, but I still feel iffy about embracing a meaningful (platonic!) H/D relationship in canon because although Harry sees Draco as having more of an equal role to his, it's not objectively (or perhaps emotionally?) true. I interpreted Draco's mission as one of Voldemort's whims, something he devised to divert himself and revenge himself on Lucius, Draco being a pawn whom he'll toy with for a while and watch with cruel mirth (complete with "muahaha") as he fails miserably... I can't see this as a true emotional manipulation such as we can imagine Dumbledore working on Harry, because Draco does not want to serve Voldemort, nor does Voldemort see Draco as important as Dumbledore sees Harry.

Structurally, there is a parallel (Harry is DD's man out to kill Voldie and Draco is Voldie's man out to kill DD), but I'm lacking the emotional side of it. The emotional connection and loyalty Draco has is with his family (the counterparts of the Weasleys), not with Voldemort (Dumbledore's counterpart). He didn't kill Dumbledore, because he never believed in Voldemort's 'cause'. He couldn't spare Dumbledore and join Harry's side because he doesn't believe in Dumbledore's ideals. He did everything he did in HBP to save his family. And that's rather courageous in my opinion.

I don't honestly think Ron and Draco are such clear mirrors/archrivals as I thought before (remember the essay (http://www.livejournal.com/users/firebird5/43570.html) I wrote on their roles in canon?) although I think the next book could still salvage that through a complicated Malfoy-redemption and Weasley-punishment scenario of sorts (which I explain more fully here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/firebird5/51408.html) if that's confusing).

You say neither Harry nor Draco have a choice in the responsibility entrusted to them, but Harry does choose to at least embrace his task and believes in its rightness. Draco is dragged in unprepared and trying to get out of it and trying to sabotage himself and feeling ill and crying in the bathrooms -- he doesn't choose to emotionally accept or reject it. They are still emotionally asymmetrical in the way they relate to their roles, because:

Harry = The Chosen One. He believes there is a chance of defeating Voldemort (he's done it five times); he feels all the responsibility of it; and he's Dumbledore's man through and through.

Draco = One of Voldie's Pawns. He doesn't really want to kill Dumbledore and feels it's an impossible task; he's trying to run away (though he doesn't know how to without endangering his family) from the responsibility and the 'importance' Voldemort is cynically trying to bestow upon him; doesn't give a fig for loyalty to Voldemort if he can help it.

Forgive the aimlessness of this comment; I'm still trying to sort it all out and assimilate HBP into my canon consciousness. :)
ext_6866: (I'm off.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I agree, but I still feel iffy about embracing a meaningful (platonic!) H/D relationship in canon because although Harry sees Draco as having more of an equal role to his, it's not objectively (or perhaps emotionally?) true. I interpreted Draco's mission as one of Voldemort's whims, something he devised to divert himself and revenge himself on Lucius, Draco being a pawn whom he'll toy with for a while and watch with cruel mirth (complete with "muahaha") as he fails miserably...

Oh yes, I agree. I don't know if this is the basis for any sort of relationship in canon. In canon I think Harry sees enough to look at Draco differently than he had looked at him before, but their situations are very different, with Harry only able to relate to certain aspects of it. But then, in canon Harry and Draco's personal relationship isn't the focus--it's just in slash there's more to work with now.

You say neither Harry nor Draco have a choice in the responsibility entrusted to them, but Harry does choose to at least embrace his task and believes in its rightness.

I agree--that seemed like a big reason Harry was a step beyond Draco in his development. Last year he may have felt more reactive, but now he was ready to commit himself making an informed decision. Draco seemed to just get to the point where he realized he could make his own choice--and while it didn't look like that choice would be Voldemort, he hasn't yet made another choice.

I love the essay recently posted on hp_essays about this, talking about Draco and existentialism. There's only part 1 up now, but I'm eagerly awaiting part 2.:-)

Now I am off to read those links!

From: [identity profile] ishtar79.livejournal.com


I could have sworn I commented on this post already. Ah, well *shrug*

You've simply *nailed* what's compelling about the H/D dynamic post-HBP. I never subscribed to the 'Draco is Harry's equal!!!11!!!' justification for the ship, for many reasons including the fact that I'm not too fond of the concept of attempting to place two characters on a scale to figure out which one is more worthy. And realistically, nobody in the books is really Harry's *equal* in terms of narrative importance. What I always liked about H/D was their specific dynamic, and the way they always seemed to get to each other (Draco 'got' to Harry to a lesser extent in OotP, which might have been the reason for my somewhat cooling interest in the pairing after that book).

But I love the state of things after HBP, and your post managed to articulate exactly what it is I love...you know, aside from the double-entendre lines and slashy goodness. Though I love those too. It just seems to have taken the pairing to the next level, beyond the typical hate/love antagonistic!slash thing.

As a side note, the people who think Snape needed help in Potions from Lily of all people are clearly on crack. Blast, and here I thought that you couldn't get more annoying than the 'JKR likes Ginny, therefore you MUST too!!' people.



ext_6866: (Dreamy)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


You've simply *nailed* what's compelling about the H/D dynamic post-HBP. I never subscribed to the 'Draco is Harry's equal!!!11!!!' justification for the ship, for many reasons including the fact that I'm not too fond of the concept of attempting to place two characters on a scale to figure out which one is more worthy.

Yes--and like you said, who is Harry's equal? Least of all Draco, who was always beaten. That was always more of a clue that Draco wasn't there to be only the nemesis or the school bully because he was never any threat. If that was all he was there for, as many people thought, his characterization would make a lot less sense to me, I think.

The funny thing, too, is that really it's more interesting that they're not the same. Draco isn't just Harry's opposite number on the other side, he's got a completely different thing going on. So ina way Harry can relate to him in a way that's a lot more interesting than the way he relates to Voldemort, which is just as head-on adversary.

I think there's something similar with Snape and the Marauders too. His ties to them hint at being a lot more interesting than the more simplistic popular bully (James) vs. Lonely Nerd (Snape).
.

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