Draco's Fangirls

[sistermagpie]

I was reading bookshop's post on OTPs (I took out the link because it's f'locked--oops!) including H/D, and along the way the subject came up of JKR putting jokes in the books for fans--easy to spot jokes. And one came up that I've always actually been kind of interested in, because I think it goes deeper than a joke, which is

...Myrtle as Draco's fangirl.

On the one hand I can easily see the connection, with Myrtle rhapsodizing about how Draco's really sensitive and all that. I think JKR could definitely have had fun writing Myrtle's dialogue there and been thinking about Draco fans...though, actually, we may have a skewed impression of just what she thought of them. I mean, we know that post-HBP she got letters from girls who were all mushy over poor Draco, but her previous comments about bad boys and Tom Felton may have been about people thinking Draco was cute in his evilness rather than really sensitive underneath. Though the two do go together, sometimes. (You know what we women are like!)

But at the same time, the most I can imagine JKR doing in that scene with regards to commenting on Draco fandom is having fun with things that were there for the plot already, because Myrtle's attitude towards Draco--and Kreacher's too--are just too, imo, important to the story. Part of what Harry is doing in HBP is following Draco into his world for the first time, if not very far in, and for the first time having to try to think about Draco as a person at the center of his own life. So it's fitting that Harry meet people whose view of Draco is so completely the opposite of his own to shake him up.

Both these characters who are besotted with Draco are saying something about themselves too. Kreacher and Myrtle both seem to prefer different versions of fanon Draco. Kreacher's into the fine cheekbones and aristocratic bearing--he'd read the fics where Draco's sophisticated and has expensive taste and is witty. And that fits Kreacher because he's the Black family retainer in love with their history and his place in it, the anti-Dobby. He immediately recognizes Draco as family and sees the family the way they want to see themselves.

Myrtle's more into the emo!Draco fics, which is interesting in itself, especially since as silly as Myrtle is, she's not completely *wrong*. Myrtle is never objective about anyone and always sees what she wants to see to some extent, but still, her relationship with Draco is based around something different than her relationship with Harry was. We don't see Draco and Myrtle together enough to really understand how much she's warping things, but in the one scene we do see Draco is essentially being what she says. He's not being cruel to her, he is being weepy and bullied and vulnerable. Myrtle may always see things in a self-centered way, but she also always has exactly the important, crucial information Harry's looking for. The boy saying strange words in the bathroom, the book someone threw at her, how to work the egg, and her crying boy were all the answer Harry was looking for at the time.

There also in some way seems something significant in how believably Draco and Myrtle can have this kind of relationship. I can't really put my finger on it and don't want to come across as being overly positive about it, but it somehow fits that Draco, rather than another student, would somehow fit with self-pitying, childish Myrtle.

It's just kind of ironic that although neither Kreacher nor Myrtle are giving us insightful, three-dimensional portraits of Draco, we almost need extreme views like that to challenge Harry's own and knock him out of his own view. Not as some lesson that Harry's been totally wrong, but by opening up the possibilities, showing him that if he's to understand what's going on he has to be able to think of Draco as someone who has value to other people who see something in him. Harry's original idea, that Draco wants revenge and has been given a chance by Voldemort, is a good start, but not enough--it's not the thing that's really driving him.

And of course, as a Draco fan I've always thought those views, even when I disagreed with them, were important to the fandom conversation all along. I think the characters in the books are really a combination of different versions of themselves. It's just that when you release the books to a fandom made of so many people, it's like a prism and characters breakdown into rainbow interpretations, if that makes sense. Sirius becomes a heartless bully on the red end and a tragic hero on the violet side. Snape's evil on one end and a brilliant, unappreciated, noble victim on the other. Draco's got his evil DE self, his cowardly DE self, his emo!boy self, his witty aristocrat self, all based on something in canon. Somehow he also seems to lend himself the most to pointing out the differences.

Comments

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

i hate when links lead to locked posts :D and then i think glass houses *bg*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ack! That'll show me for not checking before I linked!

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

I think the characters in the books are really a combination of different versions of themselves.

I think this applies to all people, too, actually. I think we're all an amalgamation of the different versions of ourselves that we show people, and because of that, all the interpretations are correct, at least to a point.

I want to talk about Draco and Myrtle, too, but I feel like I need to go home and re-read first, or I'll just be talking out my ass. :) I love this conversation, though.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think this applies to all people, too, actually. I think we're all an amalgamation of the different versions of ourselves that we show people, and because of that, all the interpretations are correct, at least to a point.

True--and you can certainly see that on lj!

Looking forward to more talking about Draco and Myrtle!:-)

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

I think the characters in the books are really a combination of different versions of themselves. It's just that when you release the books to a fandom made of so many people, it's like a prism and characters breakdown into rainbow interpretations, if that makes sense.

That makes all the sense. And even if some of these interpretations will be "less authorised" after Book 7, I believe we will still have a lot of different views on the characters. Which is great, but also exasperating. As life itself!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That makes all the sense. And even if some of these interpretations will be "less authorised" after Book 7, I believe we will still have a lot of different views on the characters.

Yup--though probably pieces of them will still be there. Though there have been times when I'd have thought certain interpretations had been put to rest by canon and they weren't, so we'll probably just keep fighting.

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

the most I can imagine JKR doing in that scene with regards to commenting on Draco fandom is having fun with things that were there for the plot already, because Myrtle's attitude towards Draco--and Kreacher's too--are just too, imo, important to the story.

I agree with you about the function of the Myrtle scene, actually. Sorry I didn't make that clear in my post on Aja's LJ!

I don't know if I will ever buy Draco as the debonair witty aristocrat, though -- I feel like that archetype was just imported from other fandoms, like Buffy, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the main proponents of it are people who are pretty lazy about characterization and writing more generally (Cassie Claire, Mistful, etc.)

Anyway, great post! I'm so glad you're writing about HP again! ♥

[nidoking.livejournal.com]

I see Draco thinking he's debonair and witty, acting like it, and getting away with it because his family's big among "old money" circles and people want to curry his favor. I've been working on an alternate version of the Harry Potter series where Harry's sorted into Slytherin from the start, and we get to see a lot more of Draco Malfoy and the other Slytherins. Among other things, Draco's always willing to take a dare, such as when Harry notes that he never faces a problem without Crabbe and Goyle at his side, but he always finds a way to avoid having to face any real danger or do any significant work. Harry, unenamored with money, sees him for what he really is behind the façade.

I've been wondering about one thing, though... Draco seems to afford money about the same respect as pure blood. So what would he think of a Muggleborn who happened to have risen in the wizarding world and made lots of money as well as influence?

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Have you read any of Mistful's more recent work?

(And forgive me, but the curiosity is killing me - would you mind clarifying the 'debonair witty aristocrat' being imported from Buffy comment? Because I don't recall any characters matching that archetype in BtVS...)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I agree with you about the function of the Myrtle scene, actually. Sorry I didn't make that clear in my post on Aja's LJ!

I suspected you did think that--I was more thinking about the idea in general, which I've heard before. And thought myself--it's hard not to when you listen to Myrtle!

I don't know if I will ever buy Draco as the debonair witty aristocrat, though -- I feel like that archetype was just imported from other fandoms, like Buffy, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the main proponents of it are people who are pretty lazy about characterization and writing more generally (Cassie Claire, Mistful, etc.)

I think this aspect of Draco comes from what he is trying to be in a lot of scenes, myself. I mean, to get into the discussion below, I think there actually are times when Draco's supposed to be funny. Not Noel Coward, certainly, but in re-reading there are times when his snob humor (as opposed to Potty and the Weasel) is funny, and that it makes the older kids laugh. Like when he suggests the Gryffindors raffling off their Cleansweeps because a museum would bid for them.

In the CoS scene he's not really making a lot of jokes--the one I can think of is his imitation of Colin which Harry thinks is cruel but accurate. Mostly he's waiting for their reactions to things like the article about the Weasleys.

So while I do think fanon!Draco benefits greatly from having a witty writer feeding him lines, I think "witty type" is coming from canon too. It's just sometimes also removes the ugly stuff that sticks out all over the place in canon. I suspect if you cherry-picked certain lines of Draco's and ignored the rest you could defend some very fanon characterizations.

Anyway, great post! I'm so glad you're writing about HP again! ♥

I'm glad you're posting!!!

[hellspoette.livejournal.com]

It's amusing that the population of readers engages in such distinct psychological splitting with all the characters; this is, of course, because everyone is pulling a Myrtle and reading what they want into the situation. Of course, because we are all to some extent sentient creatures with eyes and ears and brains and things, some bit of the truth wriggles through, and all the interpretations, no matter how disparate, have some textual basis (except for the pervos who write about little girl Draco having sex with adult Harry, and so on--what is it about this fandom that draws out the pedos? Oh right, the children, sorry).

I like that you're able to step back and see how and where the splitting is happening. Whether JKR realizes it or not, she's very clever to have introduced Draco's interactions with Myrtle & Kreacher.

I think the characters in the books are really a combination of different versions of themselves.

That's all people are, really. A combination of traits and dynamics which look quite different, viewed from an assortment of angles & contexts. In life and in literature I think it's vitally important to grant people/characters a little dignity, by taking the time to process & understand their dynamics.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That's all people are, really. A combination of traits and dynamics which look quite different, viewed from an assortment of angles & contexts. In life and in literature I think it's vitally important to grant people/characters a little dignity, by taking the time to process & understand their dynamics.

It's true--and in this canon that seems so often brought up right there in the text. James Potter being a great example--total jerk or heroic martyr? He's totally both all at the same time. His characterization in a way mirrors the stuff with Kreacher and Myrtle just in how we were first introduced to him through misty recollections from people who loved him, and then there's Snape saying he's a jerk (but he's not objective), but then there's Harry's impression, and the way Lily thinks he's a jerk but is on her way to being in love with him.

[ljash.livejournal.com]

A side note: It is interesting that Draco and Myrtle would get along at all--yet it kind of makes sense. Draco can show a vulnerable side to Myrtle because she's not exactly real. She's there and has a full personality but she's not a part of the school and for the most part no one talks to her. Myrtle is loopy but she doesn't seem to like false niceness. Harry either pities her or warily edges away, trying to be the nice guy but also not wanting to be around her. (I haven't read the books in a really long time--this might be inaccurate. It's just the feel I was left with.)


(sigh. I suppose I'll have to reread the books before the 7th comes out or it won't make any sense.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it does somehow make sense. And Myrtle's being a ghost is a big part of it, particularly given the situation in his sixth year where he's having to hide from all the people he would normally hang out with. But there's also somehow something fitting about Draco being vulnerable with Myrtle in ways Harry isn't or something. Or maybe they could just bond over their anger at Olive/Harry!

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

It's just kind of ironic that although neither Kreacher nor Myrtle are giving us insightful, three-dimensional portraits of Draco, we almost need extreme views like that to challenge Harry's own and knock him out of his own view. Not as some lesson that Harry's been totally wrong, but by opening up the possibilities, showing him that if he's to understand what's going on he has to be able to think of Draco as someone who has value to other people who see something in him.

Yeah. There's been hints to "Myrtle's Draco" all along, as he's never been the "cool, detached evil mastermind" some readers have wanted to make him into. He's been far too hot-headed, vulnerable and emotional for that, taking insults by Harry and even Hermione extremely personally, etc.

As someone who was expecting Draco-development all along, I have to admit, I used to think it would be much subtler. I even had a conversation with my sister mocking all the readers who thought Draco-development necessarily had to involve something "cheesy, like Harry discovering Draco crying in the bathroom" (oh, the irony! :D), but in retrospect it makes sense, because not only would more "subtle" clues, in all likelyhood gone over the head of the readers, but more importantly, they would have gone over Harry's head. Because Harry was already so set in his view of Draco that he needed something big to seriously knock him off it, in order to even consider other possibilities. And there really aren't many things in these books that are subtle, so I don't know why I expected this character to be. ;D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah. There's been hints to "Myrtle's Draco" all along, as he's never been the "cool, detached evil mastermind" some readers have wanted to make him into. He's been far too hot-headed, vulnerable and emotional for that, taking insults by Harry and even Hermione extremely personally, etc.

Right--it's actually really realistic the way Harry responds to all signs of Draco's vulnerability. Because he revels in them when they're there, but then goes back to hating him as if he never has any insecurities at all. It's that typical way that we consider our own vulnerabilities sympathetic while somebody we hate always needs to be brought down a peg. And even when they have been, they haven't been.

I even had a conversation with my sister mocking all the readers who thought Draco-development necessarily had to involve something "cheesy, like Harry discovering Draco crying in the bathroom" (oh, the irony! :D), but in retrospect it makes sense, because not only would more "subtle" clues, in all likelyhood gone over the head of the readers, but more importantly, they would have gone over Harry's head.

LOL! I remember laughing at loud at this idea when I read HBP because we'd all been defending ourselves that way for so long: "Look, we know it won't be like in a fic where Harry finds Draco crying somewhere!" And then...oops. And yet it fits the character. Hermione is also found crying in the bathroom after being just as off-putting as Draco. If you're somebody uncomfortable with your own weakness, you try to cover it up with others, which leads both to people thinking you're arrogant and to hiding out to cry.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Yay, have finally got off my butt and quit neglecting your posts! I swear, I'm gonna catch up to the DTCL ones especially, am really enjoying them.

actually, we may have a skewed impression of just what she thought of them.

I think in general, fandom way over-estimates how much JKR pays attention to them by way of acknowledgment in the text itself (like blowing up their importance to her, but also giving her this sense of humour that they feel is one she shares with themselves, so it's like she's part of their Sue-mocking club or whatever.)

Like how people have said that Tonks is a spoof of Mary Sues because um...she has a cool fantasy-style power. Which seems to be looking at it backwards - Tonks has a fantasy power because she's in a fantasy book. People wrote fics like that inspired by what they thought would fit into the Potterverse, so it doesn't automatically follow that the Potterverse including them means it's inspired back.
Similiarly, I don't agree with bookshop's conclusion that JKR's been influenced by fandom to make Draco more like they want him to be, when it seems far more sensible to assume that fandom's been picking up clues from the books and writing him that way.

It just seems to be taking on an assumption about the books from fandom rather than vice versa (for instance, laughing at Mary Sues is something for a very fandom-literate person, and it demands a certain sensibility - either that you worship an author and hate lots of fanfics for taking over that 'verse; or that you're making a commentary on genres or characterisation itself: that too many fantasy style characters are beautiful/handsome, have amazing over-kill powers, and are tough, cool and kind, for example.
JKR clearly has a sense of humour, but it's never seemed like either of those, from interviews or the books - um, could someone who, through Tonks, was mocking ff.net's Calandula Moonflower, possibly write New!Ginny?
And of course, to take her side, it's a pretty self-important view of one's self and a petty view of JKR to assume that she'd write characters purely based on injokes at her own fans - and again, the natural self-cented point here is that she'd see fandom as the main ones, rather than, gee, I dunno, children? - rather than to further a plot.)

Both Draco fans and haters might be more prone to worrying about/hoping that a reference or joke would be pointed their way because JKR does make a lot of her jokes in interviews about this group (although it's pretty much established by now that this is a distraction tactic to get away from questions about the books, same as 'What's going to happen to Snape?' turns into 'Everyone fancies Lucius in the movies, too!', no?); but I do think this is unlikely, at least as a reference for the sake of a joke.
Which isn't to say she couldn't include something (like how her 'silly girls like Pansy's friends/Cho's friends/Parvati and Lavender' stock is similiar to her 'You're a woman' talk, even though they come from different motivations - one's presumably to flesh out a book and maybe show the 'ideal girl(s)' in contrast; one's to take a question about where the plot is headed into safer discussion of the fans and maybe genuine concern and sexism.) but altering the plot or characterisation based on fans (either positively or negatively - equally I've seen people say that she'll kill off ones she thinks people like too much in preference to her own favourites, and I hope I'm not overestimating her in doubting that!)
I mean, people have discussed the author's personality (in terms of predicting patterns for the text - her interviews indicate this, the books indicate that) but I'd say the one thing that seems absolute and comes out of both is that she's a person with very strong opinions and a very set plan. It might waver - Grawp? Really? - and it might not come off - 'She was like that all along!' - but the seeds for a lot are sown v. early (the Vanishing cabinet!) and she definitely doesn't seem like someone who just needs 100 or 1000 more people to point out something before she listens. The opposite, her opinions seem very entrenched.

This is a whole bunch of WORD, basically

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

I think in general, fandom way over-estimates how much JKR pays attention to them by way of acknowledgment in the text itself (like blowing up their importance to her, but also giving her this sense of humour that they feel is one she shares with themselves, so it's like she's part of their Sue-mocking club or whatever.)

I totally agree.

um, could someone who, through Tonks, was mocking ff.net's Calandula Moonflower, possibly write New!Ginny?

Or Imperiused/Polyjuiced/LovePotioned/OtherwiseObviouslyImpairedUnlessYou'reARabidRemus-TonksShipper!Tonks, for that matter.

Harry thinks that Draco's plan is failing, when of course, he looks especially awful after Ron and Katie which Harry obviously doesn't realise), but he literally can not connect them to the person he's seen. He can't even move when he's confronted with it.

Oooh, never thought of this before ...

And of course, the contrast and differences between opinions is even more pronounced because we have Kreacher on Draco's 'side' and Dobby on Harry's (poor Harry!), who's seeing exactly what Kreacher is and interpreting it how Harry might like to see it (ie. neither of them can catch Draco out; Kreacher rather humourously plays the literal 'He sleeps and eats and goes to school' game; Dobby does the classic Gryffindor arguing style of jumping back from prior assumptions not relevant to the conversation: 'I always hated him since I worked for his family!' to obvious bias and twisting of conclusions: 'I couldn't catch him doing anything wrong, but I bet he is!')

Another really good point.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

and for the first time having to try to think about Draco as a person at the center of his own life.

Exactly, and ITA and think it's very important that Myrtle's description isn't wrong - the perspective is drastically different from Harry's (so much so that he has all the clues all year for what's going on and could even make an educated guess from the bathroom description to Draco's getting more stressed - I think you pointed out in the HBP recap how Harry thinks that Draco's plan is failing, when of course, he looks especially awful after Ron and Katie which Harry obviously doesn't realise), but he literally can not connect them to the person he's seen. He can't even move when he's confronted with it.
And JKR clearly gets and portrays that Myrtle isn't romanticising what isn't happening or isn't there (she's not saying 'He's really tolerant!' or 'He's so kindly!')
(That, and I'd presume JKR would be careful with making even Myrtle, a mere woman, too idiotic and fangirlish - her first crush was of course, Harry, so it doesn't reflect well.)

Even Kreacher is saying a flattering version of the negative description we get of Draco's looks - one person's 'rat/pointy face' is another person's fine features (and again, this is something that's pretty much subject to perspective and character role in this series. Dudley's weight must be rubbed in our noses, Molly's must be gently stepped around.) but the point is the same. (He's not saying 'He's really buff' or ' he has dreamy blue eyes.')

And of course, the contrast and differences between opinions is even more pronounced because we have Kreacher on Draco's 'side' and Dobby on Harry's (poor Harry!), who's seeing exactly what Kreacher is and interpreting it how Harry might like to see it (ie. neither of them can catch Draco out; Kreacher rather humourously plays the literal 'He sleeps and eats and goes to school' game; Dobby does the classic Gryffindor arguing style of jumping back from prior assumptions not relevant to the conversation: 'I always hated him since I worked for his family!' to obvious bias and twisting of conclusions: 'I couldn't catch him doing anything wrong, but I bet he is!')

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Even Kreacher is saying a flattering version of the negative description we get of Draco's looks - one person's 'rat/pointy face' is another person's fine features

Yes--I've always thought the whole question of "is Draco attractive" was an interesting side of the character. Because he's not the sex god of fanon, obviously, but he's also really not described as unattractive, any more than Harry is. He's physically *striking* with the pale pale coloring, which I think a lot of writers love. Pale and pinched are not attractive, particularly, but they give me the impression of just one of those boys who's very pale and has pointy features. Not a sex god, but nothing that indicates anything really homely about him. Above all if he were ugly Harry would probably happily say so. I was saying to B_D recently that Harry's interest in Draco's clothes sort of echoes the whole H/D "I hate him and he's unattractive and totally not my type with the blond hair but he turns me on."

'I couldn't catch him doing anything wrong, but I bet he is!')

LOL--it's like Rashamon with elves with those two. Because Dobby's just as biased for and against Harry and Draco. And it's so great seeing Harry just have to deal with that because he literally never has. Once in a while he gets something of it, like Pansy crying in CoMC and the Slytherins wanting Hagrid fired. But usually he's just surrounded by people who hate Draco just as Draco's surrounded with people who hate Harry. Well, maybe I should amend that. I think Draco feels he's surrounded by people who love Harry, meaning the whole school. But he tries to surround himself with people who hate him.

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Myrtle . . . always has exactly the important, crucial information Harry's looking for. The boy saying strange words in the bathroom, the book someone threw at her, how to work the egg, and her crying boy were all the answer Harry was looking for at the time.

That's really fascinating -- I'd never thought of her role that way before. That is extremely cool. So maybe, discovering Draco is Harry's next adventure . . . *is delusive, but likes it that way*

when you release the books to a fandom made of so many people, it's like a prism and characters breakdown into rainbow interpretations, if that makes sense

Well, even without the fandom, I think the plurality of the characters' perspectives, the multiple ways of reading them, is partly what JKR is all about. The idea of partial judgments and blind spots and radical misunderstandings seems really crucial to her sense of why the world is the way it is: messy and conflicted and comic and sometimes awful. That's one reason I've always been a little wary when people think she's portraying her heros without irony, that she's somehow suspending judgment or overlooking their bad sides.

So it may be that the instability of the way we read JKR's characters is one of the reasons HP has generated such a huge fandom -- it's a perfect world to argue about, to attract people from all perspectives and never let them reach any resolution. :)

I do think that, as someone once said, "JKR likes to fuck with us." But that's a subtler thing than fanservice, maybe. I can't imagine her making major revisions unless she became convinced that they worked in terms of her own master plan. Some of her "shoutouts" make more sense as ways of teasing fans, maybe holding up a distorting mirror to give them a silly look at themselves, rather than pandering to them. I'm not sure Dobby comes off that much better than Kreacher in his take on Draco. :)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That's really fascinating -- I'd never thought of her role that way before. That is extremely cool.

It probably won't surprise you to know it wasn't until I typed it out that I realized just how true this was. I mean, I remembered that Myrtle was vaguely important to the plot all the time, but then I realized hey--she really has the answers Harry's looking for. And she makes it hard for him to get them because he's so repulsed by her.

So it may be that the instability of the way we read JKR's characters is one of the reasons HP has generated such a huge fandom -- it's a perfect world to argue about, to attract people from all perspectives and never let them reach any resolution. :)

Yes, as I remember Sydney saying once, what proves how good she is is that she doesn't have to defend her characters. She just draws them in such a way that their fans will defend them. And they are almost all created around a conflict. They've got this one obvious personality on top with the total opposite right underneath and constantly popping out.

I'm not sure Dobby comes off that much better than Kreacher in his take on Draco. :)

Yup--like Slinkhard said, Kreacher might be giving Harry as little information as possible but Dobby's openly saying that although he didn't see Draco do anything he must be up to something bad if Harry thinks so.

[static-pixie.livejournal.com]

I was actually thinking about this the other day, because I remembered this post wherein someone had put down that basically, nothing Myrtle said about Draco could be true because JKR was just satirizing his fangirls. And I was like, '...except everything she said was kinda true.'

But yeah, I agree with you, Myrtle's view wasn't so much a warped view of Draco as a partial one. She thought she was talking about the whole, but she'd just seen the extreme, sort of like Harry'd just seen the extreme, and so the two needed to balance.

Which is so interesting, because you do see the same thing in fandom, people polarizing Draco and trying to shove him into a box he doesn't really fit into. And I feel like, if I were to ask, 'who is Draco Malfoy?' no one would be able to give me a correct answer (except JKR). And I think Draco fits with the whole prism idea so well just because his character is about potential, who he could be rather than who he is, and so it's easier for people to sort of mold him to suit their fancy. And there are that many more jumping-off points.

There also in some way seems something significant in how believably Draco and Myrtle can have this kind of relationship. I can't really put my finger on it and don't want to come across as being overly positive about it, but it somehow fits that Draco, rather than another student, would somehow fit with self-pitying, childish Myrtle.

Impotence, maybe? I mean, Narcissa strikes me as the sort of helicopter parent who tells Draco that it's alright when he fails at things and cleans up his messes, just as a reaction to Lucius's constantly pointing out Draco's short-comings. Chapter 2 showed that she doesn't really think that Draco should do for himself or stand on his own. And Myrtle's the same way. She's all about self-pity rather than thinking up a solution to the problem and fixing it, plus she's desperate for company. And so Draco would probably come to Myrtle in the same way that he'd come to his mother, because she'd tell him that it was alright that he was scared and that he might fail, etc. And I don't think any other student is that coddled or that dependent. Because, of course, book 6 was all about Draco’s realizing that he did have power and that he could do for himself, which is why you get Dumbledore praising him for concocting and executing an evil plan to infiltrate Hogwarts.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I was actually thinking about this the other day, because I remembered this post wherein someone had put down that basically, nothing Myrtle said about Draco could be true because JKR was just satirizing his fangirls. And I was like, '...except everything she said was kinda true.'

Wow--see, that is exactly the weirdness of honestly thinking she'd use a character to just satirize the fandom. First it would show real disrespect for her work if she was using it to just poke at certain readers. But also it shows a bit of denial about fangirls. All characters have them, and they're always too biased to be objective, but that doesn't mean they're always wrong about everything. And in this case, as you say, what on earth isn't "true" about what Myrtle is saying? Everything is true. This is exactly the Draco that she's seen.

Draco and trying to shove him into a box he doesn't really fit into. And I feel like, if I were to ask, 'who is Draco Malfoy?' no one would be able to give me a correct answer (except JKR).

And even JKR would be limited. I mean, I'm not saying "JKR doesn't know her own character!" or "the fans know him better!" Just saying that if a character is "real" in that sense he's like a real person the way good fictional characters are, he can stand up to scrutiny by other people. They can say things about him that the character might not have thought about--and they can have different interpretations that might even hold up better. Like I just had a thing with this one author where her interpretation of one thing in her book was different than mine, and I'm sorry, but I just don't think I'm wrong. Not because I know the characters better at all, but I'm judging a situation put before me. If an interpretation doesn't fly with me it doesn't matter that the author said it. Good authors often write instinctively, knowing what a character would do more than they might know every single reason they did it. That's what makes the character more real and not just a set of intellectual ideas.

Because, of course, book 6 was all about Draco’s realizing that he did have power and that he could do for himself, which is why you get Dumbledore praising him for concocting and executing an evil plan to infiltrate Hogwarts.

Oh yeah! And what a great take on Myrtle there. I know a lot of us have noticed that despite accusations that he's bad and so must be a rapist, Draco actually seems to have a basically positive attitude towards women, and I think ultimately that was there for a reason, because of his relationship with Narcissa. He may be naturally drawn to women who treat him the way she does, even if he's conflicted about liking the pampering. He knows he has to fight it, but also maybe draws strength from that kind of comfort out of habit.

[seaislewitch.livejournal.com]

… we almost need extreme views like that to challenge Harry's own and knock him out of his own view.

Exactly! The 'canon truth' about Draco lies somewhere in between, and JKR finally gave that to us in HBP. That's exactly what captured my attention, compelling me to write about it.

(And isn't this true in life too? Politicians are perfects examples.)

Kreacher and Myrtle as fan!creature and fan!ghost! *g* I hadn't thought of it in those terms, but I see now how she was playing with us. :0 Excellent post as usual.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Exactly! The 'canon truth' about Draco lies somewhere in between, and JKR finally gave that to us in HBP. That's exactly what captured my attention, compelling me to write about it.

Definitely! And I did thoroughly enjoy all scenes where Harry was having to listen to Myrtle and Kreacher talk about Draco. And it was also kind of fitting that these were both people that Harry found repulsive and never wanted to spend time with to begin with.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

I was groaning for the fact that book 7 is less than 4 months away, yet here we are having this huge drought of posts about the HP books/fandom (of course, I haven't contributed any myself, ahem)... then Sister M comes to the rescue ;-)

But at the same time, the most I can imagine JKR doing in that scene with regards to commenting on Draco fandom is having fun with things that were there for the plot already, because Myrtle's attitude towards Draco--and Kreacher's too--are just too, imo, important to the story.

Yeah! I don't know to what extent (if at all) was JKR digging fun at Draco's RL fans, but I thought what Myrtle and Kreacher made out of Draco were pretty much partial but real traits of his they wanted to focus on. It was just so IC for both of them I could not imagine these plots to be mainly designed for certain readers' benefits/disbenefits.

As for humor in the HPverse, I'd say Harry, Ron, F&G, Dumbledore, Snape and Draco probably each has made me laugh about the same number of times (but in terms of percentage of their page time that were funny, Draco tops them all!) And with Draco even humor is something that is more about his potential to be really witty. The few times that he really cracked me up he actually wasn't trying to entertain nor insult anyone, but merely stating facts in a detached manner. Maybe I am just weird in that I find something as simple as an accurate recounting of an absurd situation extremely funny :-D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I have the same reaction to Draco. I was looking back at an old post from post-OotP, where Black_Dog was pointing out that in OotP he has a small part but he's still really vibrant and vivid whenever he's onscreen, and I think that's part of it too. Energy is attractive and Draco has energy. And somehow he's funniest when he's sort of admitting to the situation he's really in, if that makes sense. Like, he has no power over Hagrid, he can't get him fired, he's less funny when he's trying to pretend he's got power over him. But he is funny when he states that outright or draws the line at where Hagrid doesn't have power. Like when Hagrid's all "And then you can all come after school and spend more time with the skrewts!" and Draco says, "Yeah, right." and then Hagrid gets really defensive. Or "Oh, of course, we were supposed to stroke them! Why didn't I think of that?" Or even, "Here I was thinking he'd just swallowed a bottle of skele-grow." And of course my favorite scene, where he's taking points as a member of the IQ. People seem to like to frame that in terms of Draco being evil and powerful when he's actually joking about the absurdity of the whole situation himself.

[discordiana.livejournal.com]

Heh. I touched on this in my comment to spare_change, but I think a lot of the anger at the Kreacher characterization is due to fandom politics. There was a time where the sort of fanfic that included that idea was just awful, so now even the slightest whiff of positive Draco affirmation creates the knee-jerk that the fic is totally about Draco as a misunderstood woobie. Sad 'cause good writing is usually in the middle!

It's like that line about being not the greatest thinker. I think it was slightly ironic seeing how by the end of the book he actually got the DEs inside Hogwarts and Dumbledore helpless. But it must mean he's completely stupid, because if not, then in binary world it'd mean he's a genius. I like how you said all the different perspectives create a character -- not so much for the literal sense of it, but because I'm a fan of many dimensions contained inside an archetype.

I don't even like the aristocrat Draco trope, but mostly 'cause aristocrats and the romanticization thereof make me laugh, so I barely understand the resentment that he could be one. Like no aristocrat was ever an awkward jackass? Though I admit I like the detail about fine bones and swagger -- helps a certain porn aesthetic, if you know what I mean. ;)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You know that's always something that gets me, the idea that he can't be an aristocrat because look at how awful he and his family are, and how vulgar...because real aristocrats couldn't be that. Money and class are the same! It's like everybody circling around the same romantic notions of aristocracy but using it in different ways.

But it is very funny the way it's always one or the other--and also with the Trio. Harry can be partially right and partially wrong, because he's looking at it from his own perspective. Actually, I thought of that for a lot of the stuff said about the mystery in HBP, because the big thing they weren't thinking about was what Dumbledore brings up at the end, which is that his heart isn't in what he's doing. So when Harry says, "When's he been one of the world's great thinkers?" it doesn't work because if Hermione's being objective she's know that yes, Malfoy can be stupid, but he's not so stupid you can just use that as an excuse. The real reason is this underlying wanting to be stopped. And then later Hermione says the killer is really ruthless because he doesn't care who gets hurt because now Ron's been hurt, where really again it's the same opposite idea. It's the squeamishness that's making him more dangerous. (And of course they also fail to think about how Slughorn's mead was from months before, around the same time as the necklace.)

[primroseburrows.livejournal.com]

Draco's got his evil DE self, his cowardly DE self, his emo!boy self, his witty aristocrat self, all based on something in canon. Somehow he also seems to lend himself the most to pointing out the differences.

I knew there was a reason I'm a Draco fan. He's multifaceted. Maybe it's because up until book seven he was so two-dimensional: we had to make up stuff to extract the third dimension, or something. JKR didn't disappoint, though, IMO.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I know! And I love that the real thing didn't disappoint and of course made sense of all those sides in ways a lot of previous interpretations didn't. It didn't need anything explained away.

[kaskait.livejournal.com]

I found it apt that Draco should find Myrtle to discuss his woe. After all they were both victimized by Riddle. But it never struck me that Rowling was slapping down Draco's fandom.

Draco, as a character, has been wound up so tight since the first book. Basically he failed from year 1. I believe he was sent to Hogwarts with a mission to befriend Harry. He disappointed his father a lot when he messed that up. Then he barged into that train compartment acting for all the world like Hermione. I wonder how many compartments he was looking into before he found Harry? Then realized he messed up royally?

HBP was the first year in which he wasn't trying to make some impression on Harry. If he was compared to Hermione in book 1 then he was compared to Ginny in book 6. She was also another character who wasn't trying to get in Harry's face anymore.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hee! I love how he fits so easily with girls! I love the comparison to the two of them--especially Hermione, because of course she, too, went crying in the bathroom because they are ashamed of their weakness and so try to hard to come across as not needing other people, which makes people dislike them and starts a pattern.

And I've always loved that moment when he sees that the boy from the robe shop was Harry Potter--oh no!