Hi, here by way of my reading lists' reading lists, since there can never be too much talk of this ep. :) Hope it's ok!
I think it's so interesting on a show that has the literal Apocalypse happening, has Lucifer rising and God playing the arcades in Atlantic City, where angels and demons roam the land - faith is presented as more about family and people believing in each other as a way to fight the darkness. I guess when God gives you a restraining order so as not be bothered by the End Times you have to take your faith where you can get it.
Perhaps Dean’s words about Sam being grown up aren’t really about faith in Sam but acceptance of the reality that whether or not he thinks Sam’s up to the job, it’s still Sam’s job.
Team Free Will has consistently said screw destiny, but last night was the first time Dean seemed to believe it and I think that's where the end conversation with Sam came from. In S3, Dean never believed Sam could get him out of the deal - and he did end up in Hell as was destined/foreshadowed all season. In S4, he knew stuff was hinky with Sam and that led to them not working well together (to say the least) and the destiny of Lucifer rising was fulfilled - as was foreshadowed all season. This season seemed like the same old issues, with the foreshadowing being a brotherly cage fight between Lucifer and Michael wearing Sam&Dean somehow. Suddenly, though, Dean is saying to Sam that he does believe Sam will fight to keep Lucifer out - not that he may not fail, but that he has faith in Sam as an adult to make the right choices. In that last conversation, the foreshadowing of the entire season was turned on it's head and human free will replaced destiny as the driving force.
here by revealing that his whole plan actually rested on knowing Dean and Sam *would* save Adam because everything he said before was a lie
It's interesting - I came away with a different take home message. Yes, Zachariah knew they would come - there's an innocent in danger plus he's family, no question they would come. However, he was also saying when push comes to shove, Sam&Dean will choose each other over the entire world as they have time and again. In the end, Dean helped Adam up and made sure the innocent was ok, but it was Sam he half-carried out, which is why Adam didn't make it out the door. Of course Dean tried to go back and get him, but the time when he could have saved Adam was when he chose who to help out the door. So... Zachariah likes to manipulate the truth definitely, but I wouldn't say everything he said about Sam&Dean was a lie just because they came to the rescue like he knew they would.
Castiel’s story so far mostly involved learning that most every angel has betrayed their purpose (including him now), and then switching to humans who are by definition undependable in angel terms.
Castiel was awesome last night! He felt betrayed by everyone and basically gave everyone a beat down. He's certainly the character that has changed the most I think - he went from Team Heavenly Destiny to Team Free Will after all. I think all he's got left is fight, because he's lost all faith.
I think it would be very interested how this story would unfold in another country or era, some time/place where not as much emphasis is put on free will and nuclear family as we see in the US today. In the past, the concept of faith and freewill have sometimes been supportive and sometimes combative of each other. I mean, in Calvinism or Islam or pre-Rennaissnce era religion in general, the concept of fate is tied around your neck from birth and it's a matter of faith that you will somehow find your destiny. In Protestant groups other than Calvin, free will is essential for choosing faith/doing good and there isn't a destiny concept. In the US, that idea of religious/moral choice is important and that's why it's so big on the show, but I wonder how it's viewed by people who's cultural/religious background don't support it.
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Date: 2010-04-17 07:16 pm (UTC)I think it's so interesting on a show that has the literal Apocalypse happening, has Lucifer rising and God playing the arcades in Atlantic City, where angels and demons roam the land - faith is presented as more about family and people believing in each other as a way to fight the darkness. I guess when God gives you a restraining order so as not be bothered by the End Times you have to take your faith where you can get it.
Perhaps Dean’s words about Sam being grown up aren’t really about faith in Sam but acceptance of the reality that whether or not he thinks Sam’s up to the job, it’s still Sam’s job.
Team Free Will has consistently said screw destiny, but last night was the first time Dean seemed to believe it and I think that's where the end conversation with Sam came from. In S3, Dean never believed Sam could get him out of the deal - and he did end up in Hell as was destined/foreshadowed all season. In S4, he knew stuff was hinky with Sam and that led to them not working well together (to say the least) and the destiny of Lucifer rising was fulfilled - as was foreshadowed all season. This season seemed like the same old issues, with the foreshadowing being a brotherly cage fight between Lucifer and Michael wearing Sam&Dean somehow. Suddenly, though, Dean is saying to Sam that he does believe Sam will fight to keep Lucifer out - not that he may not fail, but that he has faith in Sam as an adult to make the right choices. In that last conversation, the foreshadowing of the entire season was turned on it's head and human free will replaced destiny as the driving force.
here by revealing that his whole plan actually rested on knowing Dean and Sam *would* save Adam because everything he said before was a lie
It's interesting - I came away with a different take home message. Yes, Zachariah knew they would come - there's an innocent in danger plus he's family, no question they would come. However, he was also saying when push comes to shove, Sam&Dean will choose each other over the entire world as they have time and again. In the end, Dean helped Adam up and made sure the innocent was ok, but it was Sam he half-carried out, which is why Adam didn't make it out the door. Of course Dean tried to go back and get him, but the time when he could have saved Adam was when he chose who to help out the door. So... Zachariah likes to manipulate the truth definitely, but I wouldn't say everything he said about Sam&Dean was a lie just because they came to the rescue like he knew they would.
Castiel’s story so far mostly involved learning that most every angel has betrayed their purpose (including him now), and then switching to humans who are by definition undependable in angel terms.
Castiel was awesome last night! He felt betrayed by everyone and basically gave everyone a beat down. He's certainly the character that has changed the most I think - he went from Team Heavenly Destiny to Team Free Will after all. I think all he's got left is fight, because he's lost all faith.
I think it would be very interested how this story would unfold in another country or era, some time/place where not as much emphasis is put on free will and nuclear family as we see in the US today. In the past, the concept of faith and freewill have sometimes been supportive and sometimes combative of each other. I mean, in Calvinism or Islam or pre-Rennaissnce era religion in general, the concept of fate is tied around your neck from birth and it's a matter of faith that you will somehow find your destiny. In Protestant groups other than Calvin, free will is essential for choosing faith/doing good and there isn't a destiny concept. In the US, that idea of religious/moral choice is important and that's why it's so big on the show, but I wonder how it's viewed by people who's cultural/religious background don't support it.