Saving the Universe with Luke and Han

[sistermagpie]

So you know that writer guy, what's his name? The one who wrote for Diagnosis Murder and other shows and hates fanfiction with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns? I think his blog is called something like "A Writer's Life" but every time I see it linked it seems like bitterwriter.com. Anyway, he's got another thread up where he went to some meeting for mystery writers and they all talked about the many non-writers they were superior too and he asked the other professionals what they thought about fanfic and they were all creeped out by it.

Now, I don't think I'll even go into all the issues that seem to be on display with this guy and the other self-proclaimed professional or wanna-be professional writers who agree with him. They seem mainly obsessed with a) finding a group they’re superior to (which isn't easy) and b) being really angry at how little respect readers have for the individual author. I admit I find this kind of funny, the focus paid on the author as a person whose personal wishes should be respected to the point of keeping readers from talking about their stories and characters in a way they don't like (they completely reject that idea that fanfiction is commentary on the source material). It seems like the idea that somebody reading a story should give a second’s thought to the writer when talking or thinking about the characters themselves is new and strange. Maybe it makes you uncomfortable, but people can do whatever they want with your characters. You published them publicly for an audience. The audience can say whatever they want about them. You’ve got the ability to have copyright now. That’s it.

I mean, very little about writing has anything to do with respect for the writer as a person. People care about your characters, not you (if you’re lucky—a lot of them just don’t care, period). You’re still not as bad off as Jerry Mathers getting called Beaver at 60 or Gary Coleman having random people ask him "Whatchoo talkin’ ‘bout, Willis?" Think of all the times your actual work gets hacked up on somebody else’s orders. Fanfic writers are worshipful in comparison--they probably know your words by heart and they don't put your name on their stuff. Your name isn’t going on their stuff. Fanfic isn’t the same thing as series work. I see the point they’re trying to make about hurting the author, but I don’t think that kind of hurt is going to be protected. The audience just isn’t going to give you that one, nor feel they owe it to you. They like reading stuff, they're not making money off it, you're not losing money. This falls under the category of "the less-than-positive side of success" rather than "crimes against the successful."

Um, that was a tangent. What I was really thinking about is related to that thread, and a comment on it where someone said (wades through bitter, anger to find correct post):

"Fanfic in general seems to spring from the writer's strong identification with a fictional world, and a desire to insert himself into it - either explicitly, as a character, or as the author/god, making the characters do as he wants (in some varieties, like slash and hurt/comfort, the writer's personal needs are pretty much clear to everyone). In other words, the fanfic impulse comes from the same place as my childhood daydreams of saving the universe with Luke and Han.

That may be a little unkind, but I think it's true."

What struck me about that is that obviously this guy thinks he's being really insulting (“That may be a little unkind…”), and this implied insult appears throughout the thread in different forms: only children identify with fictional characters and go to that fictional world for their own needs. You stop doing that in junior high! When you grow up you...what do you do?

See, this is one of these areas where I remain forever stunted because I have always read fiction the same way: I immerse myself in the world when I read, and if the characters and world are compelling enough they stay in my head and I continue to explore my own version on my own. I'm not sure why this impulse is considered childish but it obviously is--after all, it's considered geeky and geek=socially inept. That thread is full of generalizations about anyone who might write fanfic: they all really want to be “us” (meaning the "professional writers" or writers of original fic) and can't, they have no lives, they have no jobs. Of course, knowing so many people who write it I know plenty of them are probably more successful in their chosen careers (whatever they are) than BitterWriter might be in his or I am in mine. Plenty of them have families and lives. Some don't, but then, some sports fans don't either.

What this got me thinking about was the way the imagination is somehow considered something for children. Not all children are into imagination games, but most understand them and consider them a reasonable way to spend ones time. They know exactly what they're doing--sometimes people act like children don't know the difference between reality and imagination because they can act out something imaginary unselfconsciously. But of course they know they're imagining something--why shouldn't they? It's fun! For some reason adults aren't supposed to do this except in very specific instances.

Those instances are important because I just don't think we ever lose that "childhood daydreams of saving the universe with Luke and Han." Why would we? It's not like most peoples' adult lives become exciting enough that they lose all need to dream. In oselle's posts about Hooligans she mentioned how Lexi Alexander described men who join football firms as people who grew up dreaming of being football stars and that didn’t happen. This world was the best they could hope for. On one hand it gave them a sense of importance (like some people might feel they'd get from being a BNF), but also I think it makes them feel part of something bigger--like a hero or a warrior—like they used to feel imagining they’d be a footballer. It's dangerous because they aren't able to just make it imaginary and end up killing each other.

The hooligans example is good too because it's about sports--ever notice how the stereotype is that jocks beat up geeks for liking fantasy, yet the one area where grown men are allowed to fantasize is sports? I was reading an article about Harold Ramis once where he talked about working with Bill Murray (before BM decided he hated HR and never spoke to him again). He discussed that one oft-quoted scene in Caddyshack where Bill Murray's Carl is playing golf in the flower garden. The scene was supposed to be silent, but Ramis went up to Murray and said, "Do you ever pretend you're the sports commentator...?" and Murray just said, "Oh yeah. I know what you want." And that's where we get that whole intense fantasy: "This crowd has gone deadly silent...it's in the hole! It's in the hole!" So it’s totally okay to indulge that childhood impulse as long as there’s some sports equipment involved.

And that led me--sorry I'm making another leap here--to a show I was watching on Monday night: Bullshit with Penn & Teller. This episode was looking at alien abductions and the lack of evidence for it. There was this one woman they featured who was a "therapist" who had a handy checklist of signs you were abducted by aliens (a list that applied to everyone on the planet). She would do these "regressions" where the person would lie down and relax and she'd lead them through "remembering" what happened to them--really she was asking leading questions and having them make up an alien story. These sessions were expensive and people kept coming back for more; she also set up sad little groups where they all met and shared wild stories and everyone pretended everyone else's was true.

So I'm watching this "regression" and it reminds me of a thing I did once--I went to this workshop for past life regressions. It was part of a weekend convention but a single workshop wasn't too expensive. I had wanted to do one of those "guided imagery" things where someone helps you to imagine stuff intensely. Now, I had no need for reincarnation to be true or not. Whether or not I lived in 1612 makes very little difference to my life. But I thought this would be fun—the idea of past lives is cool. To my surprise it wound up solving a big problem I was having. See, the way this woman worked is we all lay down and did the regression together--not being hypnotized or anything, just imagining things with her help ("You see a door. What color is it? Is it big or small? Does it have a handle?” etc. and you feel in the details in your head). We were supposed to think of a problem we were having and travel back to the past life where this problem started. Would I say I discovered my real past life? Probably not. But I told myself a neat story where I was a boy blacksmith apprentice to a mean guy and it was all very Dickensian and the story helped me to see exactly what I was doing wrong that was creating this problem. It was a major help to me!

So I can't bring myself to just say that past life thing was bullshit because I got out of it exactly what I expected: a fun imagination game that turned out to help me a lot. Other people in the group were more seriously into the past life thing, and it seemed like that's how they socialized. Like one woman had all these tremendously exciting past lives and was always meeting people she "recognized" from the past. So that was someone, imo, who was a little too focused on her fantasy past and ought to have learned to deal with reality.

The point of my telling that story was that like I said, my regression was very much like what this alien therapist was doing, so my first thought was to say, "Is that woman being regressed being dishonest? Like, does she know she's making this up but likes the attention (like I suspected that past life woman was doing)? Or does she honestly believe it?" She seemed to honestly believe it, or at least feel it was appropriate to act like she did. She was very serious and said, "I'm really glad to have found out what happened." And she kept having all these expensive sessions and joined a group of people who sat around with straight faces and talked about their alien weddings to lizard men.

Then it hit me...maybe the reason some people are so willing to buy this stuff is they literally do not know how imagination works? I mean, they use it so little that they just don't know what it's capable of, so they think, "I couldn't possibly imagine anything like what I saw when she asked me what I saw in the space ship! That would be impossible unless I’d really seen one!" when of course they could. (Unsurprisingly, descriptions of average alien abductors tend to change over the years, and always reflect the movies...hmmmm....) Or they just don't know what it feels like to have an intense daydream where you try to "see" this fictional place. So they’re more likely to confuse it for a memory, because they don’t know how real the imaginary can be.

Artists are supposed to do this more often. Writers see the places they write about, hear voices of their characters, and become fictional people as they write. A painter sees a place in his/her head. Actors become other people. Dancers become characters or become music, as do singers. One ballet teacher I have ends her class with improv where she puts on music and everybody is supposed to do whatever they want to it. When I was a kid I *loved* doing that--if you ever watch kids do it, some of them get really serious about it—there nothing cuter than watching a little kid do interpretive dance. In the beginning it was a weird feeling, but now I'm like, "Oh yeah, I remember how fun this was!" Plus I'm more likely to just do it when I'm at home--music comes on and I'm all, "La la la, I am dancing--yay! Moving is fun!"

Granted, this probably does make me a loser according to the many people on that other blog (though since I'm not a fanfic writer at least I'm not immoral, unethical and a thief), but it just goes to show this impulse really isn't so unnatural and it's not something you grow out of. You might not do it anymore, but you can. It really isn't, as they would have you believe, like the way you no longer find kiddie jokes funny.

But some people would sure have you think so, huh? So reading a book, having it spark your imagination, thinking up stories about the characters, writing them down and sharing them with others becomes this perverse activity and must be strictly separated from the grand art of the original writer (or the writer who writes episodes or tie-in novels based on somebody else’s characters!). Or something.

Comments

[teratologist.livejournal.com]

It's funny, because I always thought that if you grew up and were still making up adventures in your head, that was exactly when you did become a writer. I wonder what motivates him to write, if it's not saving the universe intra-cranially?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It felt like there was a real need to draw a line between silly imagining and ART or something, though I just don't think they're that different. Imagine if somebody had convinced George Lucas to stop wanting to save the world with Buck Rogers. There would have been no Luke and Han for this guy to stop dreaming about!

Just to play devil's advocate...

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

It's an interesting topic, really. I can easily understand how writers could be made uncomfortable with fanfiction because of how easily people can get things wrong. Little details that the reader might not have picked up on can be crucial to a writer. I haven't read the BitterWriter's blog, but it sounds less like he's commenting on imagination (and by having it being automatically a loser) and more on a reader's need to be a part of things.

And that, to an extent, I can understand. Several years ago, I had a girl contact me regarding a fanfic I'd written. She'd liked the idea and wanted to write a story based off of it. I agreed and the story she produced vastly changed my concepts, while still be identifiable as being based off my work. Without a doubt, my own story was a trite nonsensical piece of emo-flavored garbage, but I was astounded by how wrong her rendition seemed. Something which I'd created had been warped, and not - from my then perspective - for the better.

So I can empathize with his unease, especially when characters are still recognizable, but are doing things they would never contemplate in the source material.

What I don't believe is that it gives him, or any other creator, the right to mock his fanbase. Regardless of how uncomfortable it can make him to share his creation with the world, those people are the ones who pay him when it comes down to it. Writers have a choice of whether they want to send their stuff out into the big scary world, and dealing with fans and fanfiction is just a part of it. People will analyse what you present to them, they will comment on it, and they'll take away from it what they'll take away from it. It's not always what the original creator had meant to imply, but isn't that the fun of it?

I will say though that if M BitterWriter was commenting on idiocy of fanfic writers because they feel the need to imagine things, then he's an idiot himself. Funny thing for a writer to suggest, really, that adults shouldn't use their imaginations! What does he think he's doing?

Re: Just to play devil's advocate...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--not that he has a fanbase. He was railing against fanfic writers, but he doesn't have any himself. In fact, looking at his imdb bio he seems to usually write about other characters anyway, because he's a TV writer who does episodes for shows. His pov is that this is okay because it's official, with the creator's okay--and that's true, of course. But he doesn't feel like you should be able to write a story that you're not paid for because you don't have the author's permission etc.

There are a lot of things in the comments, though, that just get into hating fanficcers in general and mocking the impulse. I don't think any of these people have ever been in danger of having their work fanficced--ironic since you, a fanwriter, have been in that situation. I had a story I did once made into a play where the author got a lot of things wrong--and yeah, you're right, it's really frustrating. I can definitely understand the feeling that some people have at the idea that this character they created can just show up in a story doing things that they might find really offensive. Just think of the way certain characters are demonized, for instance. The author probably wouldn't like that!

People will analyse what you present to them, they will comment on it, and they'll take away from it what they'll take away from it. It's not always what the original creator had meant to imply, but isn't that the fun of it

Yes, it really seemed like throughout there was this real need for control that you just can't have. Like it was just funny the way people kept repeating the world STEAL meaning that their ideas and characters had been stolen, when of course when you publish something you're giving those characters to people. And it's not like fanfic writers are presenting them as their own, exactly, since they say where the characters are from. It's very weird when you think about it...

[morgan-d.livejournal.com]

I remember the post you quoted very well. I also remember my reaction to it. "Dude, I don't want to save the galaxy with Han and Luke. I want to hide somewhere in the Millennium Falcon's so I can watch while they make out!" ^__^

Seriously, when I read that I did think he was being unkind when he assumed the reason why people write fanfiction could be condensed into some pseudo-psychological insight, and when he assumed fanfiction writers' motives are that different from original fiction writers'. (Frankly, would Han and Luke even exist if George Lucas hadn't spent a good part of his life dreaming of flying through the universe at lightspeed and having thrilling adventures about princesses and knights?)

But your post raises a very interesting issue that I haven't quite considered before. Like you, I've always dived into the fictional world of whatever I was watching or reading... Well, isn't that what I'm expected to do? Isn't that what the writers expect me to do? I know it's what I hope my readers will do when they read my stories. I really don't know any other way to approach a fictional universe, honestly. Either it grabs my imagination and I'll enjoy the ride, or it doesn't, and I'll take my attention someplace else.

An original fiction writers that abhors fanfiction in general always strikes me as if they're saying, "Hey, I'm the only one allowed to be creative here!" Which is completely bizarre, because the more uncreative the reader is, the harder it'll be for him to enjoy fiction. (There's also the original fiction writer that yells "You got it all wrong!" at the fanfiction writers, but that's another matter. Those guys are dead anyway. ^__^)

Your thoughts on the regression thing and on the inconvenience of being seen as an imaginative person... Gosh, you've given me a lot to think now. (And I guess I should write another Han/Luke piece too, I miss them.) Wonderful post, as always.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

"But your post raises a very interesting issue that I haven't quite considered before. Like you, I've always dived into the fictional world of whatever I was watching or reading... Well, isn't that what I'm expected to do? Isn't that what the writers expect me to do?"

Not necessarily if you're writing for television. The box is always at some remove. The viewer is never really *inside* the box. Where the reader can get *inside* the book.

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

They seem mainly obsessed with a) finding a group they’re superior to (which isn't easy) and b) being really angry at how little respect readers have for the individual author.

Actually I can think of more than a few "Big Name Ficcers" who would fit right in with them.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah--don't we know it!

[alchemia.livejournal.com]

I wonder what’s the overall feeling by pro-writers about fanfic. Is it mostly positive (like JKR), negative (like Anne Rice) or something in between- where maybe they don’t like it, but they accept it. I have a really difficult time understanding the negative POV. To me, all writing in some way is “fanfic” because we all draw upon these plots, ideas, symbolism etc that have been with our cultures- shared across cultures- for ages. Fanfic to me is just when we:
1) use a good amount that is directly identifiable to a source (text/film etc.) AND
2) that source is still under legal copyright- something that in the grand scheme of human civilization is a very new concept.

I had a lot more to say, but it was- well a lot. So I posted it in my LJ if you woudl like to take a look: http://www.livejournal.com/users/alchemia/119368.html

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes I would--will go right over.

That's a grea question about how "professional writers" think about fanfic since we've got examples of both extremes. I would guess a lot of authors should fall more in the middle. For some people fanfic is just a shock--a lot of people start out thinking it's weird but once they read some of it don't think so anymore. I'll bet some authors, once they get over the weird idea of somebody writing stories where these characters that have only lived in your head for years are doing other things, they can be more objective. Copyright issues bring in a whole other thing, but pop culture is such a powerful force I feel like it's useless to try to make it off-limits for this type of thing. Instead it seems like more and more these are the types of things we use to communicate with each other. Fiction just isn't that exclusive.

[fungus-files.livejournal.com]

wow. you do good meta - thanks for this. I was having a short discussion with a fellow LJ'er about Anne 'Dragonrider' McCaffrey and her rabid anti-fanfic tendencies (as well as some of her other interesting declarations). given her writing track record, I mused that her kneejerk response to fanfic could be a simple case of recognising that others are much better writers and, therefore, 'threats'.

tapping into the habits of fans seems to be part of many publicity plans for SF books/films/series now. what's the buzzword? 'convergence'? since becoming more involved in fandom, I've been pleasantly surprised at the relations between gleefully curious pro-writers and their fans.

and as for growing out of fantasy or toning it down because we're adults - all I can say to this is that the ideal of 'normality' is overrated and people who are bereft of the comfort of imagination need others to be similarly so. 'misery loves company' ;)

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

I have deffinitely noticed that the attitude towards the fans, in some circles is to enable greater involvement with the source.

Not necessarily just media fandom, either. Where the studios used to watch everybody like flock of paranoid hawks, and the publishing biz tended to land heavily on anyone whose fanfic's production values rose above a certain level, these days they sometimes actually form communities for the fans, set (fairly stringent) rules and harvest the best of the results. This has become a fairly widely recognized model in the past 20 years or so. Twenty years earlier it would have been inconcievable.

[sleeplessmarea.livejournal.com]

As a youngin, I daydreamed being Leia and saving the universe via tough love diplomacy and exotic hair treatments myself. Funny thing, instead of this further enabling my general "loserdom", it instead pumped up my imagination, stimulated my creativity and lead to me being motivated and brave enough to try things like the school play and stuff. So much for BIG IMAGINATION equals NO LIFE!

More to say, but gotta run for now!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, funny how that works isn't it? One of my favorite quotes ever is still the one from XF's "Jose Chung's From Outer Space": "I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little bit about courage."

[quidditchmaster.livejournal.com]

Every time I get to DS on my flist, there's only one or two things I tab to (I use Firefox) for actual reading. I find myself clicking your essays and musings quite often. May I add you?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Wow, what a nice thing to hear! Sure you can add me. Welcome!:-)

[bethbethbeth.livejournal.com]

Oddly enough, I was at an event associated with the Mystery Writers of America today (the very group that Lee Goldberg was talking about in his blog). The event in question was a book reading (three novelists, one academic, and one non-fiction writer who wrote a very interesting book on forensics).

Do I like mysteries? With very few exceptions, I'd have to say no. So what was I doing there? I was supporting two of my friends, both members of the MWA (and one, a newly published mystery novelist) who are both, not coincidentally, fanfic writers.

Meanwhile, that thread you referenced has to be read to be believed. One lone fanfic supporter politely arguing her point in the face of increasingly insulting "professionals" (...and not that it's relevant really, but most of them will likely *never* have to worry about being well known enough to have to think twice about anyone writing fanfiction about their work).

A sample?

I suspect I speak for more than a few of us who actually do the work to create our own characters and situations, at a level of quality sufficient to be published legitimately, when I say Get your own fucking stories, you self-entitled creeps.

Very nice.

(the whole thread is here)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I'm amazed at how the fact that this person writes fanfic seems to mean she can be treated like absolute dirt. The rage is just amazing. And not only do plenty of published authors also write fanfic (or started out writing fanfic) but I think that will become more common, not less, in the future. They all seem to feel everyone agrees fanfic is an abomination and just be very unaware of the real history of it or how it's viewed by other people.

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

I get your point, but please don't tar all prozzies with the same brush! The ones I know understand perfectly the difference between sex for payment and sex as an expression of love, and are capable of both.

In other words, "Professional writers are like prostitutes? Oi! Don't slander prostitutes that way!!"

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I wonder what he thinks about the Star Trek franchise - who solicit various sci fi writers to write what essentially are novel length fanfictions, licensed under the ST copyright. Not to mention Star Wars - there are probably at least 50 books now, compared to the hundreds of Trek books for each series. Even Willian Shatner wrote a couple - though how much he actually 'wrote' is questionable.

Indiana Jones, Highlander, Quantum Leap, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc. - all of these 'franchises' produce novel-length fanfic books. Perhaps it's more common in sci-fi/fantasy for movies and TV series than other genres. Granted, for published works of this type, there are guidelines which must be adhered to, and the story has to be approved at certain levels, but the fact remains that these are stories based on canon that don't appear in canon.

And though I can't see an author sanctioning such 'spin-offs', wouldn't you think that this somehow validates the concept fanfiction itself?

(Though in the case of Frank Herbert, his son is now publishing prequel novels to Dune based on his father's notes, but that's a different situation)

I know Diana Gabaldon (Outlander) doesn't approve of fanfiction, but she freely admits its because her characters are very personal to her. But from what I read, she's not mean about it. She asks her readers not to write fanfic of her novels. And considering some of the 'badfic' I've seen in HP, I can understand how she feels, to an extent.

Great essay! :)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

It seems like he doesn't have a problem with anything as long as the original creator says it's okay, and especially, I suspect, if he is making money off of it. For some reason the idea that people might just exchange stories about characters they both know without giving a thought to their creator is very threatening to him. But I don't know how much he's aware of the idea that people wrote fanfic first and then Star Trek contacted them because they knew what they were doing. I just get the feeling throughout the thread that what really bothers many of the people on it is the fact that all these people consider the characters to exist independently of their creator so that everyone is free to talk about them or write stories about them as long as they're not taking profits away from the creator or using them to make money.

[shaggirl.livejournal.com]

I seriously don't get the depth of that guy's hostility towards fanfic; I think you're right that there are other issues there. Now that he knows he's got fandom's attention he's become the equivalent of a troll in the dungeon.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Seriously. It's the hostility that's so amazing and makes it seem like this is touching some sort of button. Many of the people seem offended at the idea that someone writing a story about their characters doesn't take away from them personally. Maybe they feel personally violated, but they really aren't. It's like...maybe a movie star doesn't like their face two stories high on a building and that makes them uncomfortable, but they can't stop it.

[superdork37.livejournal.com]

This was all very well said and enjoyable to read - amen :)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[tasogare-n-hime.livejournal.com]

I can see why some authors are wary of fanfic and I can completely understand, But if you don't don't like fic do what Anne Rice did and send out a C&D. The fans will listen. Do not! I repeat DO NOT nit pick, taunt, and degrade the members of other fandoms just because you are paranoid with what ever fan base you may or may not have. It is incredibly rude to claim to speak for ALL other authors
when you clearly don't.

On a side note. If I ever publish any of my original works, weather it be written, comic, or what ever I hope to god people write fanfic about it!
Het,Gen,Slash,Fem-slash,Mary-sue,Gary-Stu,Script format, some abysmal spawn of satin done entirely in Net-speak. Because if there is fan-fic and fan art of my work, That means I have fans and that means I am making money, so the more the better! I look at the Harry Potter section of FF.Net and can't help but think that every fic there is like another check in J.K.'s pocket. Anyone agree?

[ex-lonicera600.livejournal.com]

I look at the Harry Potter section of FF.Net and can't help but think that every fic there is like another check in J.K.'s pocket. Anyone agree?

Absolutely. It's those people, who are so into your work that they're writing their own stories in your universe, that are likely to have three different issues of your book series and buy all the DVDs, merchandise and what not. I do think that fanfic is free advertising and should be encouraged - if the writer is clever.

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

Can't tell you how much I loved this post. I half nothing to add, except:

-Wow, those fanfic-condemning pro writers obviously have *serious* insecurities they've yet to address. So fanfic writters are apparently childish, and imagination playing a part in your adult life is somewhat pathetic? It makes me wonder why they chose to write for a living, unless it's just to use it as an excuse to act obnoxious, wronged and snobbish all the time. Which it might be.

-I liked the tie-in between people who buy into anything (past lives, alien abductions, supernatural forces) and their lack of faith in imagination. I've always spent a significant portion of my time daydreaming-I wonder if that's behind my refusal to absolutely *believe* anything.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--maybe! If you know you're imagination well you know it can screw you up.:-)

It really does seem like a lot of the people there are just having a knee-jerk reaction to...something else. I especially like the charges that "we've put the work in to create our original characters so you can't be like us" that I got from some of the posts. Not every fanfic writer wants to be an original novelist--and those that do what to be original novelists do not necessarily want to be you, specifically. It was interesting, too, that so many people seemed to completely reject the idea that fanfic was a form of commentary on the text, and if you reject that then you're just not really going to be able to understand fanfic at all.

[threeoranges.livejournal.com]

Your post, and in particular the phrase "reading a book, having it spark your imagination, thinking up stories about the characters, writing them down and sharing them with others" reminds me of the strange genre of essay dreamed up by the academic John Sutherland and collected in such books as IS HEATHCLIFF A MURDERER?, IS HENRY V A WAR CRIMINAL? and CAN JANE EYRE BE HAPPY?

I call it a "strange" genre because it's essentially a hybrid of historicism and the fanficcer mentality; basically, Sutherland spots "flaws" or lacunae in the plotlines of great literary masterpieces and then attempts to find an explanation for them that fits what we know of the facts. For instance, the Christmas goose that Scrooge buys for the Cratchits must have taken practically the whole day to roast, mustn't it?... Oh indeed, says Sutherland, and that's why Scrooge knew Cratchit would be late for work the next morning! Though Dickens never explicitly states it, the choice of that massive goose is perfectly in tune with Scrooge's slightly wicked sense of humour as demonstrated in the rest of the story. Scrooge is going to be good from now on, yes - but not entirely saintly ;-)

All of which demonstrates the fanficcer mentality, the reader's ability to posit a developed personality from the clues in the story itself. Sutherland's academic basis protects him from the kind of attacks fanficcers are subject to, but his work is essentially a scholarly form of fanfic (and just as fun to read, if you're into such things).

[nymphgalatea.livejournal.com]

strange genre of essay dreamed up by the academic John Sutherland and collected in such books as IS HEATHCLIFF A MURDERER?, IS HENRY V A WAR CRIMINAL? and CAN JANE EYRE BE HAPPY?

Oh yes, they are an exceedingly strange & wonderful set of books, aren't they? In many ways they remind me of the meta essays you get on Livejournal. I love the way he gets so nitpicky about things, ike in the first book he ponders the exact method of Heathcliffs' death and asks doctors if it would be possible, whien most people kind of accept the "he died of a broken heart/mind" explaination given in the text. If he were on Livejournal I think he would have a big following.

it just goes to show this impulse really isn't so unnatural and it's not something you grow out of. You might not do it anymore, but you can. It really isn't, as they would have you believe, like the way you no longer find kiddie jokes funny.

It's not, not at all. And I think the majority of writers either don't know or don't care. Terry Pratchett hangs about his own newsgroups and posts frequently. He's dedicated books to specific fans for giving him plot points. He says he doesn't mind fic as long as it goes on where he can't see is it.

And I doubt a writer like, say, Alex Garland (who wrote The Beach) would mind either, when he makes his narrator state in one of his books that he makes up stories (which bear no small resemblance to Star Wars) in his head to help him get to sleep at nights.

I think it's all a matter of how secure you are in your own status as a writer.

Oh, and may I friend you, sistermagpie? I'm always really interested in your essays and suchlike.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Looking at that quote you picked out, my first reaction was, "Yes. That's it exactly. Thank you! I love you." And then, as you did, realized that the speaker thought of it as an insult. Which, as you've said, points out how very much that person and I are not even speaking the same language.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL--exactly. Like he's uncovered our dirty secret. We were not at all aware of this--even those people who sew themselves costumes and make weapons!

[tipgardner.livejournal.com]

It is interesting to me that in so-called professional writing, referencing another book is exactly that. In visual arts, reference, knowing one's place in art history, is a tremendous component of the audience's perception of artists as "smart" and helps lead directly to success. Look at Kevin Smith in cinema and Vic Muniz in photography/painting. And if Wicked, the sequel to Gone With the Wind and the post Jedi Star Wars novels aren't fan fiction, than what is? (And that's not even getting into those Star Trek, Buffy &c type series.)

I mainly find it amusing that this writer's insecurities, like Ms Rice's, are so nakedly exposed by his words. He's showing himself up as a jealous, selfish, insecure twit with little knowledge of the world. And perhaps making a fool of himself, belittling himself as he attempts the same on others, makes the entire exercise worthwhile.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It seems like there's just a lot of different issues that keep bumping into each other. Like on one hand he's fine with tie-in novels etc. because those are approved by the creators of the series, or the owner of the copyright. So you'd think it was just a money issue, but it clearly seems like more than that if he's describing it as "creepy" and everyone on the thread refuses to accept that they're not losing money. (In fact, as someone pointed out, fanfic could very well be getting you more money as free advertising--lots of people got into HP through the fanfic, I know.) It seems to be more of a moral issue to most of them, though, and that's where all this stuff comes out where it seems like there's a lot of insecurity going around.

[in-a-tizzy.livejournal.com]

Wow. Let's just take a moment to be grateful that JKR has such a positive attitude towards all of her fandom.

I can understand why an author would be weirded out by fan fiction, I can even understand feeling the need to forbid it (like Anne Rice) but I can not understand this guy picking on fanfic writers like some school bully.

"See, this is one of these areas where I remain forever stunted because I have always read fiction the same way: I immerse myself in the world when I read, and if the characters and world are compelling enough they stay in my head and I continue to explore my own version on my own."

Psh! If that's stunted then I'd like to stay that way. To me the best books (especially fantasy books) are the ones that you finish or put down and are disappointed when you remember that its not real. That's how I knew I was hooked on Harry Potter. I finished SS and was terribly upset when I realized I was still in the real world.

*may I friend you? I adore your essays.*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

*may I friend you? I adore your essays.*

Sure! Welcome!

And boy do I agree with all of that--all hail the authors with healthy attitudes towards fans and fanfic. Interestingly, one post on that thread seems to reveal the genesis of all this: he wrote Diagnosis Murder on TV and now does tie-in novels, and the fanbase of the show apparently didn't like them, or didn't like where he went with them. So we've got some major writer vs. his fans here.

I wonder exactly what the problem was. I mean, I think the author has to do what he thinks is right and if s/he tried to just do what the fans said it would be a disaster. Sometimes fans really don't know what they want. But at the same time, fans can sometimes have perfectly valid criticisms. Sometimes an author really doesn't do right by his universe or his characters if his views change or he just has something he wants to use them for. Chris Carter seemed to really have something against his show towards the end of its run, and Mulder in particular, and there were times when it seemed like he just wanted to use it to argue with his fans.

"Fans" may sound positive, but most writers probably quickly discover that it really just means "fanatic." They're watching really carefully, and can get displeased!

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

Two words: reaction formation. Maybe if fanfic becomes big enough, people will know that *all* fiction writers are indulging in wish-fulfillment etc. That sex is everywhere. And gnarly fantasies. And fun.

Cf Freud, "Creative Writers and Daydreaming."

But we owe Mr Bitter, because the phrase "saving the universe with Luke and Han"? Such an awesome title.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ha! Isn't it? That was one of the commentators on his thread--I should get his name just for the title.

But I really do see that fear coming out a lot. There's just such a need to make it clear that what "we" (the "original fic writers," both published and hoping-to-be) do is far superior to what YOU are doing, so you can't get too close to us. And I've got no problem looking at the differences between writing somebody else's characters and your own. Sure they're two different, if related, activities, but if you're that threatened by it maybe you'll lose that sense of being that important or something.

[lavinialavender.livejournal.com]

I immerse myself in the world when I read, and if the characters and world are compelling enough they stay in my head and I continue to explore my own version on my own.

POINT.

That is reading.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

And if you're not doing that, it probably means the story is really badly-written.

[soggyoptimist.livejournal.com]

I became interested in storytelling a couple of years ago, and my husband is a fan of Antiques Road Show. (Bear with me here; there is a connection.) Storytellers talk about having "the bones" of a story, from which you develop your own riff, and folk tales often transcend geographic areas so that similar stories crop up in different mythologies or cultures. On Antiques Road Show, people are always coming in with "folk art," which brings home the fact that art is what humans do. In my mind, fanfic is like literary folk art. It's storytelling in a literate society. Fanfic writers are taking popular cultural myths and expanding them. It's very human; very legitimate. (Came here from the Daily Snitch.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's so true! (And I love finding other people who make points like I do: Here are two seemingly unrelated things. Bear with me--I have a point!:-) I think it's really a shame the way that art in so many forms has, for a lot of people, become something only privileged people are allowed to do. Sure there are people who are bad at whatever art they're attempting--there are people who write who are just not very good writers, singers who are not very good singers etc. But you can be an excellent singer or writer without being a professional one, or just be very good in a different way than the professional.

Fanfic, to me, is in some ways a really pure form of writing. You have a built in audience because people want to hear about these characters or this world--but then, so did people always want the bard to tell stories about King Arthur. But once you start telling the story it's just you. People can click away if they don't like what you're doing. If you wind up having lots of people loving to listen to the story you're telling, that's a great feeling!

Here via d_s

[parallactic.livejournal.com]

This guy amuses me, because I've read a lot of interviews with authors who stated that when they were young, they used to write like Tolkien/Twain/Star Wars/Chandler/etc, and that their first book was heavily influenced by Author X.

But I think some authors' paranoia is based on something. I heard somewhere that Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, an author who wrote the St. Germain vampire series, had some legal troubles over a fanfic writer who published a story featuring St. Germain. I think I heard somewhere that Yarbro lost the copyright to the character, and had to sue to get it back, but I'm not sure.

http://www.pywrit.com/ebooks/sfxyz/SFArticles/FanFic.htm

So if that sort of story circulates around the pro writers, they're understandably paranoid. However, other authors have given permission of a sort--Mercedes Lackey allows fanfic as long as some characters arrive 1/2 an hr before they were due in the canon, Anne McAffrey allows people to play in her world but not use her characters.

Re: Here via d_s

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yes--I can't imagine any professional writer hearing a story like that and not being paranoid. Really, it comes down to the way fandom must be regarded with healthy suspicion at all times, imo. Fans can be stalkers, fans can be crazy, fans can be just out for what they can get. When you have contact with a fan, especially, you might be feeding a fantasy. If you look at all the wank that goes on it's really hard to be surprised that a fan would pull that kind of stuff.

I think if I were in the position of being a popular author who wrote something that inspired fanfic I'd try to be respectful (since I do respect fanfic) but also very careful.

[sine-que-non767.livejournal.com]

Really enjoyed this post. Writers see the places they write about, hear voices of their characters, and become fictional people as they write. Thanks for understanding that!

[aethel]

maybe the reason some people are so willing to buy this stuff is they literally do not know how imagination works?

I like this theory; it would explain a lot.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't it? I wouldn't be surprised...