sistermagpie (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
sistermagpie) wrote2005-12-01 08:13 pm
sistermagpie) wrote2005-12-01 08:13 pm
Entry tags:
Charles Darwin--Super Geek--and Neo-Pagan Xenophobia
Happy birthday ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
trazzie!!
I went to he Darwin Exhibit yesterday and developed a huge crush on Charles Darwin--I came very close to buying a little Darwin doll.:-)
Seriously, if this guy were alive today he would be on the internet all the time. They had lots of personal notes and letters and he was just so obsessed. So much of what he wrote would go well on lj, like when he was stuck away from his friends who shared his beetle-collecting obsession: "I am dying by inches not having anyone to talk about insects with!" And also: "It is quite absurd how interested I am getting about teh science!!" Okay, he spelled "the" correctly, but the modern translation would totally be "teh."
When he decided to get married he made a big pro and con list--though some of the pro side wound up including cons as well. He was naurally worried about the loss of time for his studies, though he did have pros were things like, "Companion in later life. Better than a dog, anyway." Cons were stuff like, "Less money for books??!"
He had a happy marriage, btw. Oh, and also, not only did he classify new, strange animals, but he liked to eat them too. Oh, and at one point he thought he was going to be kicked off The Beagle during his historic voyage because he got into a big fight with the captain over slavery (Darwin was against it). Flamewar at sea!
Okay, also, I've been taking this class in Dark Goddesses and a couple of people said they were kind of interested in that subject. I just had to write something about the question of whether or not there is a trend of xenophobia in Neo-Paganism. I'm no expert on Neo-Paganism in general, but I get what it means. This was written in the context of this class and stuff so that might be clear in the writing. Still, it seems like this might be a subject other people might have opinions on so:
The short answer: yes. The long answer:
This seems like it gets right to the heart of the big questions in the Neo-Pagan community. My first long-term experience with people with “alternative” faiths was when I first got on the internet I used to hang out on a Native American board. What I heard over and over was European-Americans asking about Native practices and being told to look to their own culture, which was just as good and very much the same, only it had been lost.
They were coming from a very specific place-they were Native Americans fighting against the commercialization of their culture. As they put it-the Dominant Culture took everything else, and now the one thing they never wanted and forced us to give up, they want that too. It wasn't hard to see their point and because of that I got used to automatically thinking “stick with your own culture.” I didn't want to be that type of person who just took sacred things from other people-they even had a word for it. I can't spell it correctly, but it was “wasaichu” meaning “he who takes the fat.” The person who comes to dinner and takes all the best meat for themselves.
So I sort of walk around really not wanting to be that person who does that. But then, that can also contribute to just this xenophobia. I was recently reading a book review that even suggested that WWII had the effect of sticking people within their own borders more than they had been before, and also encouraged people to present their nationality as almost a brand name (Belgian Chocolate, Italian Shoes, etc.). Are man-made borders that real?
In the past I'm sure it would be natural to take on the culture of the land on which you were living and not have to produce a pedigree. It's the land, to me, that seems most important anyway. As an American that's another problem-as I said, I feel separate from the Native Cultures of North American, but my heritage doesn't lead me back to one specific place in Europe either. I feel most attached to the area of the US that I'm from-the Northeast. In fact, some of my family, while mostly Irish, has been in that area for a relatively long time for non-Natives.
So how do you find a balance between the two extremes? I wasn't as aware of the way different Dark Goddesses are viewed, but what's described here makes perfect sense. I think both things mentioned are a factor--that people are drawn to familiar Goddesses and so are happy to change them to suit what they want them to be, while seeing “foreign” goddesses as smaller, two-dimensional, limited-more potentially dark and weird.
I know that when I was reading through the original list of Goddesses I was instinctively classifying them as Goddesses I'd heard of and those I hadn't, and then also slotting them into the cultures I associated them with-Lilith was Jewish, Kali was Indian, etc. I am neither of those things, therefore they were not me. Actually, I've been aware during the course of trying to keep my mind open until I meet everyone because I don't trust myself to latch on to a Goddess I already know or have positive associations with and make her what I want. I'll catch myself thinking about a familiar one and think, “Stop that!”
Perhaps there's also the illusion that we “know” some of these Goddesses more than others-especially if the culture they come from is no longer living. The Celts can't tell you you've got Cerridwen all wrong, while a modern Hindu could have a lot to say about Kali or Ganesha if you get them wrong. It's like a shortcut-you imagine that Goddess or God is already like you, so there's less to learn. And of course, what she is is your defintion of cool, so her long-dead culture must have been too.
Still what I think that means is that these Goddesses become more of a reflection of “us” meaning modern people, three-dimensional people, good people. They are vulnerable to being polished up to show how positive and good Neo-paganism is. To me it seems like any nature-based religion is based on balance, which means all black and all white, but it does seem like many traditions of Paganism seem more about focusing on only the one. It also seems very convenient that a Goddess first worshipped thousands of years ago has the mindset of a 21st century Neo-Pagan! I suppose that also leads to people to look for “dark” forces that they can make completely dark just to stand against that image. It's a bit like God vs. the devil all over again.
Perhaps it's just a very uncomfortable truth we have to face that many of the bad impulses we associate with monotheism can show up in a different form in Paganism. They're not left behind with monotheism since no one don't leaves themselves behind there. Just as people in the past demonized the local deities to replace them with demons, it may seem natural to make distinctions between “your” gods and the ones of other cultures. Do people just still have this need to search for a “true” God or Gods? Perhaps it's harder than people think to drop that mentality of feeling like they're right. Maybe it's just hard for many people to really believe that Gods can be different but equally valid, however much they might say that, it it's not what they're used to. They have to have the best.
I mean, really, it's strange that anyone would react to anyone's God with advice about staying away from that God or choosing a different one. It seems more natural to ask the person about the God, since they are the ones in a relationship with him or her. If certain Gods are a bad idea to deal with it implies that they should have fewer followers. Even in Christianity you don't know which Jesus or God the person worships until you talk to them (the one who thinks people need compassion or punishment? Do they like gay people or not? Do the poor get help or scolding?).
I will say this is the good thing about this class, for me. All my introductions to these goddesses will be, I assume, positive. The one that people can do to address the problem is probably first to simply address the problem. Often the people who are most afraid of "different" people are the ones who don't know anyone of that Pantheon, race or sexual orientation.
trazzie!!I went to he Darwin Exhibit yesterday and developed a huge crush on Charles Darwin--I came very close to buying a little Darwin doll.:-)
Seriously, if this guy were alive today he would be on the internet all the time. They had lots of personal notes and letters and he was just so obsessed. So much of what he wrote would go well on lj, like when he was stuck away from his friends who shared his beetle-collecting obsession: "I am dying by inches not having anyone to talk about insects with!" And also: "It is quite absurd how interested I am getting about teh science!!" Okay, he spelled "the" correctly, but the modern translation would totally be "teh."
When he decided to get married he made a big pro and con list--though some of the pro side wound up including cons as well. He was naurally worried about the loss of time for his studies, though he did have pros were things like, "Companion in later life. Better than a dog, anyway." Cons were stuff like, "Less money for books??!"
He had a happy marriage, btw. Oh, and also, not only did he classify new, strange animals, but he liked to eat them too. Oh, and at one point he thought he was going to be kicked off The Beagle during his historic voyage because he got into a big fight with the captain over slavery (Darwin was against it). Flamewar at sea!
Okay, also, I've been taking this class in Dark Goddesses and a couple of people said they were kind of interested in that subject. I just had to write something about the question of whether or not there is a trend of xenophobia in Neo-Paganism. I'm no expert on Neo-Paganism in general, but I get what it means. This was written in the context of this class and stuff so that might be clear in the writing. Still, it seems like this might be a subject other people might have opinions on so:
The short answer: yes. The long answer:
This seems like it gets right to the heart of the big questions in the Neo-Pagan community. My first long-term experience with people with “alternative” faiths was when I first got on the internet I used to hang out on a Native American board. What I heard over and over was European-Americans asking about Native practices and being told to look to their own culture, which was just as good and very much the same, only it had been lost.
They were coming from a very specific place-they were Native Americans fighting against the commercialization of their culture. As they put it-the Dominant Culture took everything else, and now the one thing they never wanted and forced us to give up, they want that too. It wasn't hard to see their point and because of that I got used to automatically thinking “stick with your own culture.” I didn't want to be that type of person who just took sacred things from other people-they even had a word for it. I can't spell it correctly, but it was “wasaichu” meaning “he who takes the fat.” The person who comes to dinner and takes all the best meat for themselves.
So I sort of walk around really not wanting to be that person who does that. But then, that can also contribute to just this xenophobia. I was recently reading a book review that even suggested that WWII had the effect of sticking people within their own borders more than they had been before, and also encouraged people to present their nationality as almost a brand name (Belgian Chocolate, Italian Shoes, etc.). Are man-made borders that real?
In the past I'm sure it would be natural to take on the culture of the land on which you were living and not have to produce a pedigree. It's the land, to me, that seems most important anyway. As an American that's another problem-as I said, I feel separate from the Native Cultures of North American, but my heritage doesn't lead me back to one specific place in Europe either. I feel most attached to the area of the US that I'm from-the Northeast. In fact, some of my family, while mostly Irish, has been in that area for a relatively long time for non-Natives.
So how do you find a balance between the two extremes? I wasn't as aware of the way different Dark Goddesses are viewed, but what's described here makes perfect sense. I think both things mentioned are a factor--that people are drawn to familiar Goddesses and so are happy to change them to suit what they want them to be, while seeing “foreign” goddesses as smaller, two-dimensional, limited-more potentially dark and weird.
I know that when I was reading through the original list of Goddesses I was instinctively classifying them as Goddesses I'd heard of and those I hadn't, and then also slotting them into the cultures I associated them with-Lilith was Jewish, Kali was Indian, etc. I am neither of those things, therefore they were not me. Actually, I've been aware during the course of trying to keep my mind open until I meet everyone because I don't trust myself to latch on to a Goddess I already know or have positive associations with and make her what I want. I'll catch myself thinking about a familiar one and think, “Stop that!”
Perhaps there's also the illusion that we “know” some of these Goddesses more than others-especially if the culture they come from is no longer living. The Celts can't tell you you've got Cerridwen all wrong, while a modern Hindu could have a lot to say about Kali or Ganesha if you get them wrong. It's like a shortcut-you imagine that Goddess or God is already like you, so there's less to learn. And of course, what she is is your defintion of cool, so her long-dead culture must have been too.
Still what I think that means is that these Goddesses become more of a reflection of “us” meaning modern people, three-dimensional people, good people. They are vulnerable to being polished up to show how positive and good Neo-paganism is. To me it seems like any nature-based religion is based on balance, which means all black and all white, but it does seem like many traditions of Paganism seem more about focusing on only the one. It also seems very convenient that a Goddess first worshipped thousands of years ago has the mindset of a 21st century Neo-Pagan! I suppose that also leads to people to look for “dark” forces that they can make completely dark just to stand against that image. It's a bit like God vs. the devil all over again.
Perhaps it's just a very uncomfortable truth we have to face that many of the bad impulses we associate with monotheism can show up in a different form in Paganism. They're not left behind with monotheism since no one don't leaves themselves behind there. Just as people in the past demonized the local deities to replace them with demons, it may seem natural to make distinctions between “your” gods and the ones of other cultures. Do people just still have this need to search for a “true” God or Gods? Perhaps it's harder than people think to drop that mentality of feeling like they're right. Maybe it's just hard for many people to really believe that Gods can be different but equally valid, however much they might say that, it it's not what they're used to. They have to have the best.
I mean, really, it's strange that anyone would react to anyone's God with advice about staying away from that God or choosing a different one. It seems more natural to ask the person about the God, since they are the ones in a relationship with him or her. If certain Gods are a bad idea to deal with it implies that they should have fewer followers. Even in Christianity you don't know which Jesus or God the person worships until you talk to them (the one who thinks people need compassion or punishment? Do they like gay people or not? Do the poor get help or scolding?).
I will say this is the good thing about this class, for me. All my introductions to these goddesses will be, I assume, positive. The one that people can do to address the problem is probably first to simply address the problem. Often the people who are most afraid of "different" people are the ones who don't know anyone of that Pantheon, race or sexual orientation.