sistermagpie (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
sistermagpie) wrote2008-05-13 12:13 pm
sistermagpie) wrote2008-05-13 12:13 pm
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Now that's a redemption story!
So yeah, I'm going to write about Avatar again--and again I feel like I'm just stating the obvious but nothing excites me more than a story that just stuff really really well so I'm satisfied!
So...Zuko. Oh, what a satisfying story. ::sigh:: Especially having just finished the 7 books taking place in the Potterverse, aka "The Land that Redemption Forgot (but if you earn it our hero may grant you some measure of approval and won't that be wonderful for you)." I was listening to ATLA commentaries the other day, and the creators talked about how they were kind of surprised when fans figured out where Zuko was headed back in the first season. Not that this bothered them, because it wasn't about the surprise but how they got there. (And that alone makes me love them, because what is the obsession people have with surprise at the expense of all else sometimes? If all you've got going for you is the surprise, there's no reason to think about it later.)
Anyway, the creators said how they got all these angry letters when Zuko chose "evil" in CoD, but they felt that was the only choice he could have made at that moment, as he was angry and confused and angry and confused people make bad decisions.
But here's what I love about it, is that it's not just about redemption but maturity...and in fact those two are linked together, which is one of my favorite pairings! I love it when stories show that being a good person is actually smart and intelligent and badass. If Zuko had chosen to side with Aang and Iroh et al. in CoD--well, it still could have worked, but he wouldn't have really switched sides because he would still be confused. His choice there would have been less about him truly choosing the Avatar and more about him choosing one father (Iroh) over the other (Ozai as represented by Azula). He would be doing what Uncle thought was right and also still following along his muddled ideas about fate. If they had done that, I think they would have needed Zuko to waiver and be untrustworthy to the group until they truly finished that part of the arc. They knew he wasn't done changing yet. He was still in the middle. (Iroh was not completely correct—this wasn’t Zuko’s crossroads. He was rushing it.)
I mean, at that point in the series he's admitted that he has these impulses towards protecting or helping Aang and others, that he isn't so sure about the war. But he still isn't sure those aren't just weaknesses that keep him from being a good Fire Nation Prince. Iroh tells him that he's stronger and wiser and freer than he was before, and he's right, but Zuko doesn't see that yet so it’s just Iroh trying to get him to take the path he (Iroh) thinks is best for him. (Zuko’s still operating under that pesky Bad Faith!!) Actually, it's kind of interesting given Iroh's own past and relationship with Zuko that he always avoids the real thing that Zuko's about, which is his father. Azula doesn't--she jumps right in about how if he fights with her he'll have his father's love. That's what even later Zuko admits it was more about for him. I wonder if Iroh just didn't want to go there. Because he can't really say to him: "That stuff you long for as a son? Not gonna happen."
In fact, the whole Iroh/Zuko father/son relationship probably deserves its own post the way it informs that whole relationship and especially Iroh's actions imo, while at the same time Zuko has to work out his dad issues completely on his own with no overt help from Iroh.
The creators just totally hit a personal story kink of mine by not having Zuko switch sides here where he'd be listening to Iroh. He's not just Iroh's successful project. In order to make a strong decision he had to be thinking completely for himself for the first time. So we get that whole section where he returns to the Fire Nation and still feels uneasy and angry. But it takes him a while to really know why. At first he keeps trying to find old reasons for his anger, ones that fit his old child pattern. If he just feels badly for not doing what Iroh wanted he's back to where he was with his father and can lash out at Iroh. Only Iroh refuses to play that role. Zuko’s last scenes before he decides to switch sides play on that even more--he's angry because he's been cut out of the war meeting and sulks that he won't go--that's the sort of thing he was always angry about before. But then it turns out he has been invited and they're waiting for him and he's still not really happy.
He's trying to fit himself back into his old role at court but he's outgrown it. Unfortunately he has not grown to fit the new role he's being offered either. So ultimately, as he tells Sokka in TBR, leaving the Fire Nation isn't that hard because it's the only thing that feels right for who he is. It's hard, but staying would be a lot harder.
Of course, just because he's not just making decisions based on what Iroh thinks doesn't mean Iroh's not still a role model and Zuko can't still imagine what Iroh would say when he's confused. That's another thing I love in the post-DBS Zuko, the way he can't ever be Iroh when he's trying to be (his imitation in WAT and "silver sandwich" blathering in TBR) and yet doesn't notice the times when he actually is being Iroh. When he tries to imitate him he focuses on Iroh's personal quirks of language, using metaphors from the natural world and speaking in abstractions. He sucks at that because that's not how he talks.
But at times when he's just being sincere and passing on his own wisdom gained through experience (which is what Iroh was trying to do) he can be quite the guru! Just in more straightforward language. Like his speech about honor when he approaches the GAang the second time to explain why he wants to join them or his advice to Sokka on what not to base his decisions on in TBR. He isn't aware of it, since he's still speaking in his own straightforward way, but the concepts can still be confusing. He even gets a confused reaction from Sokka in TBR like he might have given to Uncle in the past, but with Sokka's personality ("Is this supposed to be helping?") when he talks about failure.
Zuko's been wonderfully goofier since embracing his Avatar love, since he's not taking himself so seriously and isn't so afraid to show when he's at a loss or make mistakes. But in the moments where he knows what he's doing, he's far more interesting and charismatic than his old, robotic self. Zuko's cool!
So...Zuko. Oh, what a satisfying story. ::sigh:: Especially having just finished the 7 books taking place in the Potterverse, aka "The Land that Redemption Forgot (but if you earn it our hero may grant you some measure of approval and won't that be wonderful for you)." I was listening to ATLA commentaries the other day, and the creators talked about how they were kind of surprised when fans figured out where Zuko was headed back in the first season. Not that this bothered them, because it wasn't about the surprise but how they got there. (And that alone makes me love them, because what is the obsession people have with surprise at the expense of all else sometimes? If all you've got going for you is the surprise, there's no reason to think about it later.)
Anyway, the creators said how they got all these angry letters when Zuko chose "evil" in CoD, but they felt that was the only choice he could have made at that moment, as he was angry and confused and angry and confused people make bad decisions.
But here's what I love about it, is that it's not just about redemption but maturity...and in fact those two are linked together, which is one of my favorite pairings! I love it when stories show that being a good person is actually smart and intelligent and badass. If Zuko had chosen to side with Aang and Iroh et al. in CoD--well, it still could have worked, but he wouldn't have really switched sides because he would still be confused. His choice there would have been less about him truly choosing the Avatar and more about him choosing one father (Iroh) over the other (Ozai as represented by Azula). He would be doing what Uncle thought was right and also still following along his muddled ideas about fate. If they had done that, I think they would have needed Zuko to waiver and be untrustworthy to the group until they truly finished that part of the arc. They knew he wasn't done changing yet. He was still in the middle. (Iroh was not completely correct—this wasn’t Zuko’s crossroads. He was rushing it.)
I mean, at that point in the series he's admitted that he has these impulses towards protecting or helping Aang and others, that he isn't so sure about the war. But he still isn't sure those aren't just weaknesses that keep him from being a good Fire Nation Prince. Iroh tells him that he's stronger and wiser and freer than he was before, and he's right, but Zuko doesn't see that yet so it’s just Iroh trying to get him to take the path he (Iroh) thinks is best for him. (Zuko’s still operating under that pesky Bad Faith!!) Actually, it's kind of interesting given Iroh's own past and relationship with Zuko that he always avoids the real thing that Zuko's about, which is his father. Azula doesn't--she jumps right in about how if he fights with her he'll have his father's love. That's what even later Zuko admits it was more about for him. I wonder if Iroh just didn't want to go there. Because he can't really say to him: "That stuff you long for as a son? Not gonna happen."
In fact, the whole Iroh/Zuko father/son relationship probably deserves its own post the way it informs that whole relationship and especially Iroh's actions imo, while at the same time Zuko has to work out his dad issues completely on his own with no overt help from Iroh.
The creators just totally hit a personal story kink of mine by not having Zuko switch sides here where he'd be listening to Iroh. He's not just Iroh's successful project. In order to make a strong decision he had to be thinking completely for himself for the first time. So we get that whole section where he returns to the Fire Nation and still feels uneasy and angry. But it takes him a while to really know why. At first he keeps trying to find old reasons for his anger, ones that fit his old child pattern. If he just feels badly for not doing what Iroh wanted he's back to where he was with his father and can lash out at Iroh. Only Iroh refuses to play that role. Zuko’s last scenes before he decides to switch sides play on that even more--he's angry because he's been cut out of the war meeting and sulks that he won't go--that's the sort of thing he was always angry about before. But then it turns out he has been invited and they're waiting for him and he's still not really happy.
He's trying to fit himself back into his old role at court but he's outgrown it. Unfortunately he has not grown to fit the new role he's being offered either. So ultimately, as he tells Sokka in TBR, leaving the Fire Nation isn't that hard because it's the only thing that feels right for who he is. It's hard, but staying would be a lot harder.
Of course, just because he's not just making decisions based on what Iroh thinks doesn't mean Iroh's not still a role model and Zuko can't still imagine what Iroh would say when he's confused. That's another thing I love in the post-DBS Zuko, the way he can't ever be Iroh when he's trying to be (his imitation in WAT and "silver sandwich" blathering in TBR) and yet doesn't notice the times when he actually is being Iroh. When he tries to imitate him he focuses on Iroh's personal quirks of language, using metaphors from the natural world and speaking in abstractions. He sucks at that because that's not how he talks.
But at times when he's just being sincere and passing on his own wisdom gained through experience (which is what Iroh was trying to do) he can be quite the guru! Just in more straightforward language. Like his speech about honor when he approaches the GAang the second time to explain why he wants to join them or his advice to Sokka on what not to base his decisions on in TBR. He isn't aware of it, since he's still speaking in his own straightforward way, but the concepts can still be confusing. He even gets a confused reaction from Sokka in TBR like he might have given to Uncle in the past, but with Sokka's personality ("Is this supposed to be helping?") when he talks about failure.
Zuko's been wonderfully goofier since embracing his Avatar love, since he's not taking himself so seriously and isn't so afraid to show when he's at a loss or make mistakes. But in the moments where he knows what he's doing, he's far more interesting and charismatic than his old, robotic self. Zuko's cool!
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That's only when one erroneously blames Mai for Zuko's state of mind/actions during the first half of season three. It's not Zuko With Mai that was the issue. It was Zuko Confused, Conflicted, and Trying To Be His Father's Ideal of a Prince that was the problem and during this time he happened to be in a relationship with Mai. (Mai who, mind, did the best that she could as an emotionally screwed up 17-year-old girl to support him, counsel him, and make him happy, while still notably calling him out on being an ass when necessary. But the fact of the matter is, she isn't magical. She couldn't know what was wrong with Zuko [who is, frankly, far more worldly and experienced then her when it comes to real considerations of morality as opposed to the propaganda that they both grew up with] when Zuko didn't even know himself. Then as soon as he DID know, he didn't tell her about it or explain, he just flitted off in some gallant attempt to protect her from such nasty business.]
They played, "Let's boss some servants around," for laughs, and Mai was clearly only suggesting these things to cheer Zuko up because he'd just been showing off to her in this way so she assumed it would make him feel better. Is it an amazingly nice and kind thing to do? No. Does it indicate that a character whose first appearance featured her very specifically not caring about the royal treatment would be sooo terrible when given power? Also no.
And this comment is long enough now, so I'm not going to go into Mai's heel face turn and how it was done and what can be taken from it...just there is a disturbing tendency for people not just to unduly associate Mai with Zuko's bad decisions/behavior in the first half of season three, but to blame her for them. Which is unfair and inaccurate.
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re: Mai and Zuko don't bring out good things in each other
The entire episode The Beach was about them calling each other out on the bad things in their respective personalities, not to mention the very important moment wherein Mai essentially tells Zuko that a shitty childhood does not excuse him from culpability. They're both pretty screwed up and neither of them is a perfect person, but I don't believe that Zuko's trying to live up to his father's perception of him (which is what Nightmare and Daydreams is about) and Mai temporarily going along with his attempts to pretend just because she wants him to stop moping all over the place (because she loves him and it upsets her to see him upset) is indicative that it is Mai and Zuko themselves who don't bring out good things in each other. I guess one could fault Mai in N&D for being excessively accommodating to Zuko even when he was acting a little badly? But that clearly wasn't a problem she had prior to that or afterwards. I'd even hazard to say that her acting that way in N&D was because Zuko was specifically upset about his dad and his relationship with him and she knows how sore a spot that is.
re: "Mai is part of a larger 'Zuko trying to be the perfect prince' that is motivated by his issues"
I might disagree even MORE strongly with this. Annoyingly relegated to ancillary material though it might have been, Zuko hooked up with Mai based on his affection for her prior to even deciding whether to return home at all. And even within the show itself Zuko doesn't connect Mai and his feelings for her with the Perfect Prince lie that he left behind. It's made explicit in TBR that she was the only thing that it was hard to leave and that he only did so in aforementioned gallant attempt to keep her out of the nasty treason business. And it was also made obvious that despite his having overcome those issues wrt his father and his father's vision of what a prince should be his feelings for Mai have not changed at all. His relationship with her is categorically not motivated by his issues and never was, which is why it still stands and gets explored after that part of his arc has been resolved.
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