sistermagpie | A Nerd Fallacy

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A Nerd Fallacy

I threw out a little theory on Fandom!Secrets that had to do with something I've been thinking about lately...I hesitate to say it because it’s a simple answer for a complicated thing done by many different people, but I still wonder if there's not a strain of this in fandom.

The secret expressed annoyance at how "complete and utter moron has become acceptable for characterization in fandom for Captain Kirk." And it reminded me of similar things coming up for other characters. I sometimes notice something similar in Bat-fandom too. Sometimes I wonder if it's a nerd thing.

It feels sometimes like the jock/nerd conflict has become a really overriding obsession. It's definitely more obvious in movies and TV. I can't count the number of times I've run up against comments about how people are "you're just like the mean girls in high school" and "I've always been the outsider and not one of the cool kids." And that's maybe fandom being wanky but I've seen it projected onto canons as well.

Basically, it sometimes seem to work like this: If you've got two characters and one of them has more qualities that map more closely onto the "nerd" stereotype, that's the character more people will identify with, and sometimes he'll then be characterized more like the fan. Then in subtle or not so subtle ways, he'll be seen as superior. A character with more in common with the jock stereotype--even in small ways--might not be disliked, but he'll be inferior in the way all those cool people in high school and athletes are supposed to be. I don't know if it's as simple as believing that if you have gifts like athletic ability, classic good looks or social success they must be paid for by a lack of brain power and imagination and even sometimes compassion. Or maybe it's that anybody who'd be more interested in that sort of thing must be not as smart or not as interesting?

I don't think it's that simple and I'm not sure it's always about people mapping their own personality onto the character. I wonder if there's also just a preference for obsessive characters. Like, a lot of fandom is obsessive in a colloquial sense. I've said before one of the things I always think is cool about the Dick/Tim relationship in the Batbooks is that they were both created as self-insert characters for comic readers, but from different generations. Tim is more into computers, silently followed Batman and Robin around, collects information and souvenirs, and excels at the analysis part of the job. Dick, created in 1940, has a specialized background as a circus performer and other than that is more well-rounded: he's a bright student at school, and at detective studies, likes hanging out with friends and has a room full of trophies.

I've definitely seen that nudged into "won the genetic lottery for physical talent so can’t keep up with the brain stuff." Likewise his relative well-roundedness, lack of darkness and mental stability often almost seem to be taken as...not weaknesses, but not really strengths either. It’s like you can’t really be superior if you also fit in with the cool people. Or it's like it's not intelligence unless it comes in these extreme swerves from obsession into cluelessness. Like either you're the person who knows everything except for stuff you've decided isn't important, or you're the person who has very little specialized knowledge at all. (Unless it's brought out for a joke about the strange reason you know it.) (I should also note here that I understand these things being weaknesses *for a character*--like you just aren't as interested in an even-keeled character as you are in an obsessive one. But here I'm talking about judging the character objectively inferior, not just less appealing to a particular reader.)

It's frustrating because the Enterprise and the Bat-family are all made up of brilliant people. They just have different strengths. And they work together and learn from each other. They’re not ranked in terms of talent and ability. They’re united through a common purpose, around which they’re all completely different and equal. Their talents overlap enough that they can take over for one that’s missing. They can cover another person’s strength, it’s just not the same as having them all fire on all cylinders. And all their strengths are important. Being the most talented leader isn’t less valuable than the most talented engineer. Sherlock Holmes is awesome. But if he teams up with James Bond, James Bond doesn’t become Watson because he doesn’t have Holmes’ talents.

In fact, as I mentioned recently, it’s like that ep of Leverage where team members are isolated in situations that don’t lend to their strength. But since they’ve become a team they’re even stronger, even if they’re not together. But the two in trouble save themselves by asking, “What would [absent team member] do?” This is what competency porn is, people! The more competence there is, the better the porn!

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This reminds me of a conversation I had with my sister, while watching Star Trek: The Next Generation.

"You know, all of these characters are supposed to be really smart. They got through Starfleet Academy and got assigned to the ENTERPRISE, which is the freakin' flagship of the fleet."

"Then why are Riker and Troi such morons?"

...I don't think it's just us (fans) who forget that someone in Starfleet/the Stargate program/whatever means they are way ahead of the curve.

So true about both groups. When I was reading an article recently about Big Bang Theory, about how the show got better when they made Penny more of a character, it seemed like it was a great way of showing that just because you don't have goofy hobbies that are fandomish--like comics, gaming, scifi etc.--doesn't mean you can't have just as funny hobbies. Like in the article it said something about how they brought out that Penny had a background in Junior Rodeo or something and I thought--see, that's awesome. But sometimes they make it as if there's the kids in the comics club and the kids who do junior beauty pageants and nothing in between. Or that nobody ever mixes the two because they just happen to like Star Trek despite being good at football. It happens.

I heard the phrase in a thing written by one of the writers of Leverage. They said they always worried about eps where the felt nothing happened because there was too much explaining and going over the case. But then reading the 'net they realized that viewers *adore* scenes of very smart people who are really good at what they do bantering back and forth as they plan what to do. He called it competency porn. People are sexy because they're competent and it's also just great to watch people being competent. I've since applied it to a lot of shows I watch like Top Chef or Project Runway where I just love watching talented people do what they do well. I can't do it but I love watching them do it!

I have definitely seen it in canon too, but thanks so much for that note about the Breakfast Club. I had never even considered that before! Yup, people do love the Outsider. I remember some article where the actors were all asked which character they would be in that movie and of coures they all said Ally Sheedy---the total outsider.

I know! It's totally crazy--and I love that Spock plays Chess w/him and loses! I don't think, like I said, that this is in any way the standard way to write Kirk/Spock, but it doesn't surprise me that some people flatten them out that way, especially using the reboot canon. I wouldn't be surprised if young writers, especially, found it easier to write Spock as smart because he's got familiar external signs of it. The Kirk model's a little more...sophisticated? Something like that.

Really, from watching TV and movies you'd think that high school caste systems are not only rigid of totally simple. It's not that it isn't based on truth, but high school classes are made up of people from central casting playing stereotypes!

Wow, I have never thought that about Dick and the feminine qualities but that really makes sense. I mean, there's already so many ways where Dick surprisingly winds up attracting a pattern of attitudes that usually get imposed on women, but you are really right there about things like emotional intelligence, cooperation etc. And Tim, while obviously not being hyper-masculine in an exaggerated way, really does probably fall into the more comfortable area of lone, obsessive hero. Which doesn't sit so well on Dick because when he's isolated you notice--it's like icon_uk always points out as being weird about Devin Grayson's run on Nightwing. He doesn't operate naturally like that, and that's often seen as a flaw instead of just being different.

OMG, the fandom-specific version of the virgin/whore dichotomy. That is awesome. And yes, I was definitely thinking of characters like Monk and House and the way they relate to others. And all the people on the internet who can "relate" to that. ::shudder::

Crimes against nerdiness--yes. I'm not in SGA but Snape definitely gets the genius-nerd cred that makes any nastiness on his part justified and a sign of his intelligence.

LOL! God, it's so true. And now I'm picturing Riker and Troi looking puzzled, trying to figure it out.

Yeah, he was the first one, and I had to leave all things HP (and even my formerly beloved actor Rickman) behind. After only a month in SGA I already privately ranted "Don't Snape the McKay" and it never stopped and has gotten worse now the show is over. I hear House is the same, and no matter how many people point out that nastiness in itself is not sexy or cool, the pattern is transposed on every fandom.

Ugh, I hate articles like that.
I remember one with some guy for a UK broadsheet film mag, where he was dissecting Keira Knightley and why she may be popular/unpopular, which, of course, was basically 'Women hate you' (I love how some men see this as almost a compliment) 'Don't worry about it, though, it's just because they're all fat and ugly, whereas you're thin and beautiful. Wanna fuck me yet?'
To her credit, she seemed to be saying 'That's a bit of a generalisation' (in both cases!), but some people can turn you off what they like with their defenses of it. (Like fervent HP fans just make me dislike it/him more, generally. Some people have the gift of making you like something even if you didn't before because of their enthusiasm, but it's rare.)

PS: I was thinking specifically about how Babs and Dick have been oddly placed in those roles and how it doesn't, to me fit, with Babs now retconned to a nerd and so she then gets written as labeling Dick a jock. In canon.

And Junior Rodeo would only be all kinds of fantastic! They could base whole subplots on that!

I think of Dick as a jock and just imagine him in that comic where he's singing a song about Gotham High and accompanying himself on the accordion. Like, tell me Dick Grayson probably wasn't adored by the dorkiest guys and girls in school because he was totally nice and encouraging to him. He's Dick!

You can feel smug if you like but dumb Kirk is definitely not a Kirk/Bones thing. He's usually genius Kirk. But being a genius is a
huge part of why I love Kirk in the first place.

I just assumed it was either in Kirk/Spock or maybe as background to something else. It seems like McCoy/Kirk wouldn't lend itself to it as much because while McCoy is also smart he's a doctor and that seems like it gets judged differently. Like, it takes brains but nobody thinks the person who doesn't know how to do surgery is dumb.

I think part of it is that they were geeks in the Glee mode. For guys in particular being in chorus or drama is nerdy. Even being in a rock
band is sort of nerdy in a drop out way. On Freaks & Geeks the Jason Segel character is just a little geekier than the other two because he takes is seriously. In many US high schools the only thing it's okay to take seriously are sports.

But it doesn't mean they were total social rejects, merely that they were passionate about one thing and weren't prom king. Interestingly the creator of Glee was popular in high school.

Which doesn't sit so well on Dick because when he's isolated you notice--it's like icon_uk always points out as being weird about Devin Grayson's run on Nightwing. He doesn't operate naturally like that, and that's often seen as a flaw instead of just being different.

Yeah, it's odd how that aspect of Grayson's run on Nightwing seems to push Dick into a the loner hero bit, but I'd say she also gives him a bit of the "pretty boy/jock" treatment, in that she writes him as someone for whom everything stems from the body/movement/physicality, to the point where he's actually sometimes kind of socially oblivious. At leas some of the time. In the Inheritance prose DC novel she wrote, that's definitely how Dick comes off.

Would you think less of me if I said that I can kind of relate to those characters?

I mean, yes, I'm an asshole, but that's not the fault of any condition; that's just me.

That being said, the sense of social disconnect that can spark off assholishness is easy for me to relate to.

And no, I'm not self-diagnosed with Asberger's. I was, however, diagnosed with full-blown autism at the age of two, 10 years before the movie Rain Man was made, so instead of being told, "Wow, your kid's gonna be wicked smart at math," my mom got pulled into a ROOM full of doctors, rather similar to the ones Ellen Burstyn faced when she sent Linda Blair off for treatment in The Exorcist, all of whom told her that the GOOD news was that there were a number of excellent institutions where I could receive round-the-clock care for the rest of my life.

So, yeah. My alienation and social awkwardness? I think I've earned it. ;)

Eeps, sorry, didn't consider, um, Sister M might have Kirk/Bones readers on her flist and/or people who don't know me well... anyway, that was tongue-in-cheek, 'cause my Kirk/Bones friend constantly needles me about how K/S is inferior in every way, etc. Anyway, in that case it's neither a Kirk/Bones or Kirk/Spock thing, therefore existing nebulously in some third dimension. Perhaps it's a Kirk/Chekov thing. That must be it. :> Don't you think all those Kirk/Chekov people feel chagrined right about now? How sad for them. :>

Although, I don't really consider Jim a genius like, mathematician/physicist/programmer/etc. He's a really great leader of men (though 'genius' is a little fuzzy in that category, I'll go with it). When I said I've seen 'genius Jim' in K/S I mean he's like, a genius mathematician or whatever, which is just kinda buttering it on too thick, and I don't believe it's canon.

I wouldn't think badly of you at all! I think a lot of people who are alienated and socially awkward probably get a lot of crap from people who are neither but just annoying and manipulative by claiming to be that, if that makes sense. I mean, it's not like the characters aren't believalbe, after all, and I can understand why people in their universes deal with them. It's one thing to act like House when you're House...but if you just try to act like that as a regular person it probably won't work out the same way.

I've said before one of the things I always think is cool about the Dick/Tim relationship in the Batbooks is that they were both created as self-insert characters for comic readers, but from different generations. Tim is more into computers, silently followed Batman and Robin around, collects information and souvenirs, and excels at the analysis part of the job. Dick, created in 1940, has a specialized background as a circus performer and other than that is more well-rounded: he's a bright student at school, and at detective studies, likes hanging out with friends and has a room full of trophies.

I can't stop thinking about this. Absolutely fascinating and so insightful and I even read this aloud to Husband. Totally intriguing!

Yay! I'm glad that makes sense--it's one of the things I love about them. Especially because they get on so well and are so into being brothers. It gives me a warm feeling about generations getting along and appreciating each other.:-)

I could not agree with you more about the misogyny of denigrating "feminine" traits and interests. Sadly, I see a lot of women doing this, (especially in traditionally male-dominated fandoms like comics & sci-fi), both towards real people and in fics.

First that there's a resentment of people putting their minds towards social situations at all, caring about those sorts of things. It's hard not to relate that to the many metas I've read about people who definitely want to be seen as the person who can't do that, who just doesn't have that ability (even though it's really not being presented as an ability but the sign of a weaker character)

I'm trying -- and failing -- to figure this one out. Maybe because I don't see it as some magical ability that some people are granted and others aren't, but as a specific set of skills, which to some extent can be picked up by most people?

I was one of those poorly socialized fen. Ridiculously awkward and had a had time with social cues. But I made a conscious decision to learn to emulate proper social behavior. I'm still shy, especially around groups of new people, but I can handle myself.

Obviously, some people are born with a natural talent for socializing, just like for singing or gymnastics or whatever. And maybe all of my hard work will never get to the level that some people can achieve effortlessly. But my experience at picking up the skill of social interaction (like learning to sing) has given me new ways to express myself. In the end, the hard work was worth it. And as a bonus, I find myself a lot less resentful of the people who have that particular talent.

I'm rambling a bit, I know. Migraine meds are starting to kick in.

I'm trying -- and failing -- to figure this one out. Maybe because I don't see it as some magical ability that some people are granted and others aren't, but as a specific set of skills, which to some extent can be picked up by most people?

That is a really good point. In a way sometimes intelligence gets seen the same way, where people want to make it a magical ability that appears in only certain ways. When really social ability is a combination of different things and is definitely something you can learn. Even people who would be considered good at it sometimes stumble if they're in a different social setting where they don't know the rules or the signals are different. But sometimes the people who want to define themselves as incapable of that sort of thing are really saying that they want to be the person who doesn't do it.

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A Nerd Fallacy

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