sistermagpie (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
sistermagpie) wrote2010-11-23 12:56 pm
sistermagpie) wrote2010-11-23 12:56 pm
Damian's Douche-iness
Okay, so Damian Wayne. Robin. There was a discussion of the preview for the next Teen Titans up, where Damian gets into it with Ravager, and that led to talk about his sexist jokes in the comments. I find them really creepy. I find it especially creepy that they have become the go-to joke with Damian.
And while I have certainly blamed Grant Morrison for a lot of things that bother me about the Damian character, I don't think this is one of them.
Because when I think back on times Grant Morrison was writing Damian, pint-sized misogynist isn't actually one of the things that come to mind. GM's Damian is essentially elitist, mostly in a classist sense. He's a bit like Draco Malfoy's first appearance in the HP books when he refers to Hagrid as "some sort of servant" and when Harry angrily corrects him that he's "the head groundskeeper" merely replies, "Exactly." He's not even intentionally being insulting there, he just thinks a groundskeeper is some kind of servant. He (Damian) is like royalty in his mind. Class barriers are real and he treats people according.
I think GM has attempted to show that by living with Alfred and Dick he's altered these beliefs, but without being able to reject them completely. Hence he's grown to care for Alfred, but still calls him "Pennyworth." He's grown to respect Dick despite his being circus folk, but hasn't quite worked out a way to express that he's his brother. The few times I remember him interacting with women I don't remember him being sexist. His interaction with Scarlet I remember as that of victim and would-be hero. Even his break with his mother was done in completely respectful tones with no hint that I remember that Talia lacked authority over Damian because she was a woman. Even in a party scene where society women were pinching his cheeks and exclaiming about Bruce having a son, his only reaction that I remember was "tt."
Maybe I'm forgetting some exchange in Morrison, but Damian's signature sexist interactions with women seem to come from other writers. Like, all of them. Who collectively jumped on the idea that Damian, being a fantasy brat, had a certain fantasy way of behaving with women and girls.
For women, it's all about being sexually precocious. Despite being only 10, he'll ask if a grown woman is seeing someone as if he can date her. More often, he'll label the woman a harlot or a whore (Donna, Selina) at first sight. This will get a wry comment from the woman about how charming he is. Dick himself will do nothing to correct this behavior the way he has corrected other behavior of Damian's, I think because it's popular. I don't get the sense that any writer is interested in Dick laying down rules about that kind of talk, and certainly not interested in Dick having any serious conversations about misogyny with Damian. The tramp jokes must be preserved.
With younger girls Damian's MO is about body image. He calls them fat and flat-chested and stupid while they do a slow burn and continue to work with him. There was at least one story that ended with Supergirl giving Damian a verbal spanking for calling Stephanie fat, but it didn't make me think we were going to see the end of that sort of thing. (The Batgirl comics themselves have had a few jokes about Stephanie being aware of her weight, and she even once played straight man for a random male character’s joke about girls being bitches at "that time of the month.")
In response to Damian's behavior towards women many in fandom take it for granted that he's going to be an awesome ladies' man. I find this a little disturbing--because as far as I can tell it's not even just fanboys that think this. Damian/Steph, Damian/Kara and Damian/Rose have all been suggested based on these kinds of interactions. The logic being that he's rude because he likes the girl, and so she'd find that attractive. Oh, and if the girl does fight back she doesn't so much gain Damian's respect as earn his desire (it makes her hotter). Damian has already mastered the most important point about women: they're more pliable without self-esteem. (Isn't there even a word for this, like in the urban dictionary? A word for insulting pretty women incessantly?)
Personally, I don't get why this kind of hostility about women would be attractive at all. I know the thing about boys being mean to girls they like. I remember somebody explaining this about a boy that picked on me one summer and it did not make me stop fantasizing about ways that I could kill him and get away with it. There was nothing attractive about it to me.
Character-wise: where did this even come from? Yes, Damian's a brat. But Morrison didn't originally make him a misogynist brat. There's nothing specifically explaining why he's this way. Did he learn it from the League of Assassins? Immediately referring to a woman (especially a beautiful one) who's been identified as an ally as a whore kind of implies some really messed up early development about sex and women, no?
Yet honestly, it seems played more as if there's nothing significant about it at all. Damian is a brat. As a brat he says what he thinks, even if they're insulting. So naturally he would openly treat women as sexually suspect objects whose bodies need to be judged and criticized. I can't help but feel like Damian's attitude is not supposed to require an explanation. Like maybe it's not Damian's id I'm getting a peek at here. Because there's really nothing in the character specifically that says he should have a particular hostility about women. Yes, his mother is Talia. But if that's supposed to be the case why isn't it played as Oedipal? Someone who hates and fears women because of their cold, sexy mommy isn't a confident ladies' man (at least not on the inside), he's an unhappy creep. (Seriously, one of the reasons Dick's always so believable as popular with women is that he really likes them--starting with his fun, professionally-accomplished, confident mom!)
To make a possibly ill-conceived comparison, note that no writer has run with Damian's all-around insulting of people by making him racist. I can't help but feel that the reason for that is only that open misogyny in comics is so much more normalized. Which is not to say that there isn't racist in comics, obviously--just that it's expressed differently--I think there are plenty of people who would love it if Damian was "politically incorrect" in that way too. (Maybe the League of Assassins made racist jokes when they weren't judging women by bra size.) Damian being a naughty child seems to be a convenient opportunity to play unchecked sexism as fun and healthy and it seems to work like a charm.
And while I have certainly blamed Grant Morrison for a lot of things that bother me about the Damian character, I don't think this is one of them.
Because when I think back on times Grant Morrison was writing Damian, pint-sized misogynist isn't actually one of the things that come to mind. GM's Damian is essentially elitist, mostly in a classist sense. He's a bit like Draco Malfoy's first appearance in the HP books when he refers to Hagrid as "some sort of servant" and when Harry angrily corrects him that he's "the head groundskeeper" merely replies, "Exactly." He's not even intentionally being insulting there, he just thinks a groundskeeper is some kind of servant. He (Damian) is like royalty in his mind. Class barriers are real and he treats people according.
I think GM has attempted to show that by living with Alfred and Dick he's altered these beliefs, but without being able to reject them completely. Hence he's grown to care for Alfred, but still calls him "Pennyworth." He's grown to respect Dick despite his being circus folk, but hasn't quite worked out a way to express that he's his brother. The few times I remember him interacting with women I don't remember him being sexist. His interaction with Scarlet I remember as that of victim and would-be hero. Even his break with his mother was done in completely respectful tones with no hint that I remember that Talia lacked authority over Damian because she was a woman. Even in a party scene where society women were pinching his cheeks and exclaiming about Bruce having a son, his only reaction that I remember was "tt."
Maybe I'm forgetting some exchange in Morrison, but Damian's signature sexist interactions with women seem to come from other writers. Like, all of them. Who collectively jumped on the idea that Damian, being a fantasy brat, had a certain fantasy way of behaving with women and girls.
For women, it's all about being sexually precocious. Despite being only 10, he'll ask if a grown woman is seeing someone as if he can date her. More often, he'll label the woman a harlot or a whore (Donna, Selina) at first sight. This will get a wry comment from the woman about how charming he is. Dick himself will do nothing to correct this behavior the way he has corrected other behavior of Damian's, I think because it's popular. I don't get the sense that any writer is interested in Dick laying down rules about that kind of talk, and certainly not interested in Dick having any serious conversations about misogyny with Damian. The tramp jokes must be preserved.
With younger girls Damian's MO is about body image. He calls them fat and flat-chested and stupid while they do a slow burn and continue to work with him. There was at least one story that ended with Supergirl giving Damian a verbal spanking for calling Stephanie fat, but it didn't make me think we were going to see the end of that sort of thing. (The Batgirl comics themselves have had a few jokes about Stephanie being aware of her weight, and she even once played straight man for a random male character’s joke about girls being bitches at "that time of the month.")
In response to Damian's behavior towards women many in fandom take it for granted that he's going to be an awesome ladies' man. I find this a little disturbing--because as far as I can tell it's not even just fanboys that think this. Damian/Steph, Damian/Kara and Damian/Rose have all been suggested based on these kinds of interactions. The logic being that he's rude because he likes the girl, and so she'd find that attractive. Oh, and if the girl does fight back she doesn't so much gain Damian's respect as earn his desire (it makes her hotter). Damian has already mastered the most important point about women: they're more pliable without self-esteem. (Isn't there even a word for this, like in the urban dictionary? A word for insulting pretty women incessantly?)
Personally, I don't get why this kind of hostility about women would be attractive at all. I know the thing about boys being mean to girls they like. I remember somebody explaining this about a boy that picked on me one summer and it did not make me stop fantasizing about ways that I could kill him and get away with it. There was nothing attractive about it to me.
Character-wise: where did this even come from? Yes, Damian's a brat. But Morrison didn't originally make him a misogynist brat. There's nothing specifically explaining why he's this way. Did he learn it from the League of Assassins? Immediately referring to a woman (especially a beautiful one) who's been identified as an ally as a whore kind of implies some really messed up early development about sex and women, no?
Yet honestly, it seems played more as if there's nothing significant about it at all. Damian is a brat. As a brat he says what he thinks, even if they're insulting. So naturally he would openly treat women as sexually suspect objects whose bodies need to be judged and criticized. I can't help but feel like Damian's attitude is not supposed to require an explanation. Like maybe it's not Damian's id I'm getting a peek at here. Because there's really nothing in the character specifically that says he should have a particular hostility about women. Yes, his mother is Talia. But if that's supposed to be the case why isn't it played as Oedipal? Someone who hates and fears women because of their cold, sexy mommy isn't a confident ladies' man (at least not on the inside), he's an unhappy creep. (Seriously, one of the reasons Dick's always so believable as popular with women is that he really likes them--starting with his fun, professionally-accomplished, confident mom!)
To make a possibly ill-conceived comparison, note that no writer has run with Damian's all-around insulting of people by making him racist. I can't help but feel that the reason for that is only that open misogyny in comics is so much more normalized. Which is not to say that there isn't racist in comics, obviously--just that it's expressed differently--I think there are plenty of people who would love it if Damian was "politically incorrect" in that way too. (Maybe the League of Assassins made racist jokes when they weren't judging women by bra size.) Damian being a naughty child seems to be a convenient opportunity to play unchecked sexism as fun and healthy and it seems to work like a charm.
no subject
Personally, I don't get why this kind of hostility about women would be attractive at all.
I don't get it either and, like you, would feel insulted and angry (both in childhood and now), but some men apparently think this will make them popular with women in RL. I believe the word is "a neg" or "negging". Here it is:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=neg
The funny thing is that imo negging reveals lack of confidence. By trying to put down a woman, a man reveals he thinks she won't date him otherwise, iow that he is quite significantly worse than her. If he thinks so, who am I to claim otherwise? After all, he knows himself the best.
Btw, some boys were attracted to me in childhood (my mother remembers one 3-year-old, then at 10-13) and none of them picked on me. On the contrary, even 3-year-old tried to attract my attention in not-negative ways. Another reason to doubt "he just likes you" common wisdom. Except sexism, it's one more excuse not to deal with bullying, which bullied kids of both genders get plenty of.
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And he was kind of species-ist with Gar, I guess? But still, not along the same lines as the constant (in other books than Batman and Robin) casual (and thought to be hilarious by some) sexism. I really cannot believe that Dick's character has to stand by while Damian insults Bruce's girlfriend or Dick's very close friend Donna by calling them sluts or harlots. Or that we get to watch the fantasy idea of the woman taunted being so "burned" by a ten-year old yet also being unable to retaliate in a way that makes so much as a dent in the ten-year-old's self-assurance.
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1. He had Damian taking some girl out for a spin in the Batmobile to pick her up. (and then she died and no one cared. wtf.)
2. He objected to teaming up with Squire because she was a girl. Squire told him to stuff it though. And yet he got one over on her later.
I think Damian is less 'negging' which is a PUA trick along the lines of 'treat her mean, keep her keen' and more 'pulling pigtails.'
I don't like the way many writers handle Damian, but Morrison didn't make him a he-man woman hater. However, the way Morrison treats adult women in the Batman comics could be seen as the shitty type of parenting that would generate a kid like that.
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The whole PUP (pick up artist) shtick? I think they "neg" women with backhanded compliments or something.
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In response to Damian's behavior towards women many in fandom take it for granted that he's going to be an awesome ladies' man.
CREEPY. Also, imo, a mixing-up of tropes. What that suggests to me is that fandom assumes a naughty, misogynist child will grow up into a charming rogue. Only charming rogues, or indeed arrogant-yet-charming men (which is something only men can get away with) get their charm from their conviction that they are awesome and other people will agree, as well as liking other people. Whereas this insulting-hot-women bollocks suggests someone who thinks they themselves are crap, and perhaps if they're rude to those whores they'll go out with them.
Charming rogues /= Nice Guys.
(no subject)