Love vs. Will (I wanted to call it Love Under Will, but that's taken!)

[sistermagpie]

Well, this is the thing about lists, you never know when I'm going to prattle on so much in a reply that it creates a post in itself. First Slughorn, now...this. But I thought it was interesting because recently I know I was talking to somebody about why Occlumency and throwing off Imperius were so different and why Harry sucks at one and is good at the other. I was reading a discussion about Harry's greatest strengths and weaknesses (does he need to learn to keeps his mind shut like Snape says?) and it got me around to seeing what may be the difference.



Occlumency is not, I don't think, the key to anything for Harry as he can't do it and that seems to be fine. But Snape's parting shots do still sound like something Harry will have to learn in his own way--he's got to have something left to learn about his personality in the last book, after all.

Harry's love will indeed be the thing that saves him etc., and since this is JKR's book she's going to control what defeats evil, but there's only so much moral weight you can give to something that's strictly tempermental before you lose credibility. Harry is openly emotional because that is his natural temperment. He can't hide his emotions for the same reason.

Harry is our hero and so it's his personal strengths that will see him through, and the author has probably chosen a personality to which she herself most relates. The villains, by contrast, do happen to be more able to compartmentalize their emotions, but it can't come completely down to temperment. That would be like a person who is very athletic, for instance, saying, "Well, I'm athletic because I'm healthy and love life and therefore good. Bookish people are therefore afraid of life and unhealthy and therefore bad." Any temperment can be good or evil, the trick is to make the best of your strengths, and seek a balance. It's just that our hero is going to be dealing with his own strengths and weakness, so that's what we're going to see.

The moral of OotP is not that Harry must learn Occlumancy, but Voldemort still uses Harry's nature against him--and he's able to do this because Harry is still not mature, imo. Harry could not and should not ever become Snape, but he's not yet perfect himself. Given that the four houses represent the four elements, a balance between the basic natures of each seems implied in the story.

In fact, Slytherin is the house of water, and water is emotion, not fire (Gryffindor's element). Fire is Will. I do think a strong Will is Harry's nature--thus the ability to throw off Imperius. A mature Harry would have not been as vulnerable to Voldemort in OotP not because he'd lost his emotions but because of his strong Will to resist being dominated. Harry's inability to compartmentalize fits nicely with that--he is not a fragmented person. He is always whole and so directs his will. Therefore when Voldemort manipulates Harry's emotions Harry confuses the two and his will is manipulated to do what Voldemort wants--that's exactly what happens.

The Slytherin books (CoS and HBP) deal with love most openly. If we were talking about cold intellect, that would be air and Ravenclaw. (The author has openly said the houses correspond to the elements and I'm only saying things I see supported in the books themselves.) Slytherins may therefore be able to manipulate their emotions, but this does not have to imply giving them up. Their emotions do not contain the exact type of danger because they are compartmentalized, they don't have the Will that Harry does. Draco is the character JKR describes as a natural Occlumens (Harry is natural thrower-off of Imperius), yet he's not without emotion at all. In fact, his story in HBP seems to be partially about his freeing emotions he has unhealthily repressed with is own Will.

I'm not making Draco and Harry equals here in the text here, but HBP did give them both tasks during the year. Harry did need to learn to consciously use emotions to support his will (like when he uses his dead mother to manipulate Slughorn) more in this book, and not allow his emotions to dominate his Will. (Harry's emotions want to jump Ginny early on, but he controls them. It is only when his entire self gives the okay that he acts on those emotions, setting his Will to getting the girl and of course succeeding.) The other kid, Draco, is encouraged to free the emotions he had repressed by Will. In both cases the dominant strength of the house (Will and Emotion) is the dominant strength of the boy, but only when used with the support of the other elemental strengths. It's not that Harry has to change his nature. On the contrary, to truly be himself is to claim his true strength, his Will, and connect to all the other elements of his personality through that. His emotions will always give strength to his Will; he just can't let them *replace* his Will. Draco and Snape have so far been weakened the opposite way, I think.

So Harry does have to learn a bit from Snape there, but Snape has to learn from Harry as well. Harry, I'm confident, will learn what he has to learn. Snape maybe won't. So far he hasn't, so he has not grown. He's still as Slytherin and so emotional as ever, but perhaps still trying to repress it.

Comments

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Beautiful, as always. I hope JKR is reading your essays ;-). As for Snape, I do think he's trying to repress his emotions: "Fools who wear their heart on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance agaist his powers."

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That was exactly the quote that got me started.:-) It does put him more into the "complete repression" mode, but the idea of not wearing your heart on your sleeve is more about just not *showing* your emotions, not getting rid of them. So it's like Snape knows what's right, but still isn't doing it, sort of...

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Sometimes he seems to be doing it, and sometimes it seems he can't. He was very in control of his emotions in the Spinner's End scene, but suddenly, when Narcissa says the third condition, his hand twitches.

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

I've written before on that line, I think it's a, possibly the definitive one in Snape canon. When I read it I see it as a dire--nearly desparate warning to Harry spoken in a way that strongly suggests he's speaking from personal experience. As I'm a firm believer in Personallymotivated!Snape I see in that line a huge clue as to "what happened to Snape."
The parting shot was a perfect follow-up, and I read a distinct "mark my words!" in it.

[meganinhiding.livejournal.com]

Snape strikes me as someone with a tendency to be ruled by his emotions;he may have an impressive intellect but he is not a rational person which I think is why he isn't in Ravenclaw. For all his prowess at Occlumency he is unable to compartmentalize his emotions in such a way that they don't affect his teaching. Emotions include anger, hate and bitterness in addition to love and compassion.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, definitely. Talk about emotional-the guy is Slytherin all the way.

It's funny that for so long this kind of thing was considered fanon, but it really is canon. There's a reason people love to write about Snape and emotional things.

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

I actually think Snape is overall able to compartmentalise his emotions...as long as he's not around people who provoque great emotion in him, namely Harry and the surviving Marauders. Hm, I sense a flaw in his system. I don't seem much potential for growth for him either. Hell, Draco is already ahead of him on that area, having managed to ignore Harry for a whole year.

Harry on the other hand...while I agree with you wholeheartedly on his needing to achieve balance, I fear that JKR will keep him as impulsive and emotionnal as ever, and yet still succeed, because in her world, heart is more important than pretty much...everything. *eyeroll*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Harry on the other hand...while I agree with you wholeheartedly on his needing to achieve balance, I fear that JKR will keep him as impulsive and emotionnal as ever, and yet still succeed, because in her world, heart is more important than pretty much...everything. *eyeroll*

Yeah. Do you think she knows that Snape's pov on this kid is very often all too correct? It's not even that Harry's emotions are open but that they're just so unsophisticated next to the stuff that seems to churn in some of these other characters. Yes, you can say that Snape's focus on James & Co. is just childish, but there's a big cauldron of emotion there--that what you get when you can compartmentalize somewhat.

I don't seem much potential for growth for him either. Hell, Draco is already ahead of him on that area, having managed to ignore Harry for a whole year.

Seriously, this is what makes this pair so much more interesting now that Draco's getting older and you can start to see him as a potential adult. Before Snape/Draco was very much about the teacher and student, man and boy, adult and child. Now there are honestly some contexts in which you can imagine Draco being like, "Snape, chill." You can more see them as two different personalities working together on more the same level. Instead of always concentrating on Draco as a kid whose greatest potential is as a mini-Snape (where Snape's own flaws must be erased so that he's a better role model) you can think about Snape maybe having a friend of some kind, you know? A flawed friend he really connects with who has all his own problems, but who also has a different personality that might sometimes be good for him. If that makes sense. They don't have it yet, but you can start to sketch it out more now than you could before.

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

You can more see them as two different personalities working together on more the same level. Instead of always concentrating on Draco as a kid whose greatest potential is as a mini-Snape (where Snape's own flaws must be erased so that he's a better role model) you can think about Snape maybe having a friend of some kind, you know? A flawed friend he really connects with who has all his own problems, but who also has a different personality that might sometimes be good for him. If that makes sense.

It makes a LOT of sense, and I wish I could find some post-HBP fic exploring that dynamic. Most of the Snape/Draco stuff is shippy, and just...no. That ship doesn't work for me.

Plus, Draco uttering the line 'Snape, chill' would be officially the greatest thing ever.

[hellspoette.livejournal.com]

Now there are honestly some contexts in which you can imagine Draco being like, "Snape, chill."

Must... not... snort loudly... at work...

A flawed friend he really connects with who has all his own problems, but who also has a different personality that might sometimes be good for him. If that makes sense.

This is why I can't get behind the Snape-as-the-next-Voldemort theories that seem to be circulating. That was what struck me most strongly about the parallels between Snape and Voldemort; not the similarities, but the inherent differences. JKR sets Voldemort up to be a true sociopath. He is ruled by the emotion of fear, certainly, but beyond that, no emotions which relate to other people. He collected and manipulated, all to buoy himself up to a place of power. He certainly becomes angry and vengeful when he perceives a "betrayal" or anything that can compromise his power, but otherwise he completely lacks the emotions Snape has in abundance. Can you imagine a tiny Tom Marvolo Riddle crying in a darkened corner about anything? Can you imagine him being awkward and bullied at school? No; it just wouldn't have happened. I think perhaps Snape yearns for that sort of nature, but it just isn't him, when it comes down to it.

*sigh* i REALLY need my own lj.......

[(Anonymous)]

I always just let it lie at, not so much in what you said, but desire. Slytherins WANT to hide their emotions, they WANT to keep them suppressed. Gryffindors, well, don't. They take pride in their emotions. In GoF, after Rita's interview with Harry makes its debut, the students are all teasing Harry about Rita's "tears fill those startingly green eyes" line, and Harry says, "Yeah, that's right, I'm just on my way to cry my eyes out over dead mum." Of course, Harry borders on arrogant, but that's more or less how most Gryffindors seem to me. They feel, therefor they're good, and they want to be good, so they let people know they're feeling.

And wooooah was this the reason I just KNEW Dumbledore had chosen Snape to teach Harry Occlumency. I wondered, when Harry asked. Snape can't have been right, that Dumbledore was just too busy to do it himself. There had to be others, after all. But then I realised, well ... who is the one person in the whole world, asides from Voldemort himself, that would make Harry, for once, WANT to hide his emotions? Snape. Snape, the man he hates and the man who ridicules him CONSTANTLY. Had Dumbledore taught Harry, Harry would have had no incentive whatsoever to try and hide his emotions. He likes Dumbledore, and he wouldn't mind in the least if Dumbledore saw inside him - I imagine he'd even offer assistance. He might make an effort just because Dumbledore wants him to, but that's not enough, nowhere near. He needed to WANT to block his emotions. And Dumbledore was near to the last person who would trigger that defensive wall in Harry's mind. But even with Snape, Harry couldn't do it, which is the biggest reason why I think that Harry really will NEVER learn Occlumency (or be anything more than a Squib at it). If he can't do it with Snape, he can't do it with anybody else, and it didn't work in HBP, either, when he hated Snape a gazillion times more than he did in OotP and whom he believed was Voldemort's spy.

To me, it was always the DESIRE to block your emotions that made it work. Slytherins consider emotions weaknesses; they don't want to be weak, they don't want to have weaknesses, so they strive to block those emotions, to supress them.

And that's, I think, where Snape and Harry differ so much. To me, they're just the same. JKR said Harry's too damaged in some ways, and I think that Snape is, too. Harry wears his emotions so close to the surface, JKR said, and I think Snape does the exact same. The one time Harry blasted his way into Snape's head, he came across such intimate memories that at first, I was astounded. They weren't even RECENT ones. They went back over twenty years. Harry was weak, Snape was strong - how the devil did Harry managed to get that far deep? But then, I don't think he did. I think that Snape's memories, even the most intimate, are just as close to the surface as Harry's, only his are walled up; once you break that barrier you strike gold. The difference, then, was that Snape WANTED to hide his emotions - Harry didn't - doesn't.

(Draco, in my mind, is very different from both of them.
He has a goldmine of emotions unlike Harry and Snape put together, but his is walled up, fortified, and buried down deep to the very bottom. If you broke through his barriers you would have to dig yourself to China and be damn grateful if you get so much as a nugget.)

- gabby

Re: *sigh* i REALLY need my own lj.......

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I love the way you said that--yes! Snape and Harry are both sort of boiling cauldrons ready to blow all the time. Harry assumes that his emotions are good because they are part of himself, he's proud about them and righteous. Snape is all too aware that they can potentially hurt him.

Draco's sort of so aware they can hurt him they're stamped down really really far, so in HBP he's having to even discover them, he's so disconnected. Like, he's not even aware of why he can't do this and why it's upsetting. Where Snape tries to Will himself into feeling something Draco has Willed his emotions down so much he's actually having to think to even recognize them, if that makes sense.

They both just sort of have to learn different things about the whole thing. Harry sort of has to learn that hey, those emotions are even more powerful than you think and Snape has to learn they're not quite as scary as you think--if you dealt with them they wouldn't trip you up all the time.

Re: *sigh* i REALLY need my own lj.......

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, definitely.

And I think that that's also a huge reason why it's so easy for Harry to resist the Imperius. Because he's SO connected with who he is, what his feelings and emotions and memories. He knows EXACTLY who he is. To me, the Imperius is just that. It's eliminating all sense of who you are in order to make you do something that your true self would never have done.

I think that Draco really wouldn't be able to resist the Imperius, though, because, like you said, he's so disconnected. He doesn't know who he is. He can't fight to be himself when he doesn't even know who "himself" is. I don't know if this is making sense, but, with Harry, I think it's, "This is me, I know who me is, and what you're asking me to do is not me, so I won't do it". He has such a clear idea of who he is that, even when he can't define it, he still knows. It might be abstract, with the Imperius curse, but it's there, and it's clear enough for him to know that the order is against his character and beliefs. With Draco, he can't make that distinction. He might not have been under the Imperius curse in HBP but he was damn near close. He was being ordered to do something, he didn't have a choice, and he didn't know who he was in order to understand that he couldn't follow through with it.

And the ironic thing is, it's like Draco's the one emplying all these Unforgivables on himself. Occluemency, I think, is something that he's not only always been doing, but that he's been doing a sketchy form of it ON HIMSELF. He's not trying to block the emotions from other people, he's trying to block them from himself. He has a certain ideal image of who he wants to be, and those emotions don't figure into that fantasy at all, so he, yeah, stamps them down. And he's stamped them so far down that even he can't reach them, not even if he tried. (It was so obvious he was lying in CoS when he told Colin Creevey he wasn't jealous. But I really believe that he was trying to convince himself (maybe even he had, already). Which is like you said. I think that he got to the point where he was lying to himself so constantly, and was desperate enough to believe every word of it. Because I think he really did believe that he wasn't jealous of Harry, he was just mad. And with the truth went away all his ability to recognize his emotions for what they are. And I can't imagine what he first thought of all the emotions that were leaking out in HBP. That alone must have been absolutely terrifying. Because the emotions were just SOOO large they were bursting out like a volcano. He's kept too many and too much locked up in too tight and too small a box. Now more are coming in, the others are trying to get out, it's getting harder and harder to push them down, he can't run away from them like he did before because whenever he pushes them down and gets away he has to face it all over again and they come right back up, because emotions come from experiences, and he can't keep the emotions down forever when he's constantly going through the experience, and it's like this emotional overload for him, one big erruption of raw emotions.

As for the Imperius curse, I think that when he began to realize that he was a little more uncomfortable with the task than he had expected, he started to pretty much order himself into it, too. You know, like, "You have to do this, you don't have a choice, you have to." He's shutting up who he is with Occlumency, choosing ignorance (the mead and necklace were both set up using intermediaries, and he wouldn't have been around to actually see the death). And wasn't that what Harry so often noticed about the Imperius? The "blissful ignorance"? The ability to not think, which is something Draco's been trying desperately to do all year, refusing to actually think about all that was going on and happening?

But at the end of HBP, he's starting to find out who he is. Starting to. Nowhere near far enough to break an Imperius curse, maybe, or paint a clear portrait of his identity. But Dumbledore gave Draco that very tiny sense of self, that small crutch of identity to lean on. He's not a killer. That's the starting point. He's not a killer. He doesn't know what he is, he has no clue, but he knows what he is not. And that is a killer.

Re: *sigh* i REALLY need my own lj.......

[saturniia.livejournal.com]

Personally, I think that the fact that Draco was crying in the bathroom creates a sort of middle ground for Slytherins. It sort of qualifies what you said, making it seem more like "Slytherins consider showing emotions weakness; they don't want to be weak, they don't want to have weaknesses, so they strive to supress those emotions, to hide them". The emotions themselves aren't weaknesses, but to a Slytherin showing one's emotions before one is ready is akin to having a shitty poker face... it's done, and done often, but it isn't good for one's plans.

Also, you'll notice that Slytherin emotions, excluding pride, are only fully apparent when three or less people are present; in HBP, this includes Narcissa's fear/love for her son in "Spinner's End", Severus's fear for Draco during the Christmas party and following Sectumsempra, and Severus's anger when Harry tries to turn the older man's spells against him during the flight from the castle. This has little to nothing to do with trust, as far as I can tell. Rather, it's a way of denying it ever happened. The fewer witnesses, the better, since it can more easily be dismissed as gossip.

Re: *sigh* i REALLY need my own lj.......

[(Anonymous)]

But that's exactly what I mean.

I'm not saying that all Slytherins push their emotions down as far as they can go. They hide them. That's what I'm saying. They're weaknesses in that they hinder their plans when they are shown (or they think it does). They have ambitions, they want to succeed, and they can't have those hindrances.

As for the Slytherins... it's not so much when they're faced in a room with small numbers, I don't think. It's when they're faced with the problem in question, actually faced with it. Snape was worried about Draco and he was facing Draco alone, and were able to talk upfront to each other about what was bothering them, so his worry showed.

randomly ...

[likethemodel.livejournal.com]

And since water equals emotion it makes that the second task in GoF was all to do with water.

Re: randomly ...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, that's right!

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

Very interesting, as always!

I hadn't heard of the fire/will, water/emotion connection before, but it really makes a lot of sense. Especially if you consider that Harry was eligible for Slytherin in the beginning - he really does have traits to fit in both houses.

His emotions will always give strength to his Will; he just can't let them *replace* his Will. Draco and Snape have so far been weakened the opposite way, I think.

Yes. I think you said just about as perfectly as it can be said right there.

I often like characters who live according to their emotions (and a large part of that is because I myself am so different, and I admire the honesty in those type of characters) but in Harry's case I think they're too unbalanced. Especially his anger. He doesn't really show much of his emotions though, except for the anger, and avoid talking about his feelings as much as possible... Sometimes I wonder how much his best friends even know about him.

I think that he's really starting to learn, though. OotP had some harsh lessons for him. And it felt like he was quite a bit different from how he was at the end of OotP when I finished HBP. Also, as you say, he's still growing into the person he's going to be; sometimes I think we forget how young they are.

Anyway, reading this makes me even more of a H/D shipper than I already was, heh. You managed to put words on something I'd just vaguely suspected, with the will/emotions reasoning. You say they're not equals, and they aren't yet, but now I can definitely see the possibility. I guess I just like that type of combination, haha.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hee-yes, this totally inspires the H/D in me as well. I mean, they're not equals in the text but there is a reason that people see them as potential equals in other stories. Ron and Hermione are the sidekicks who are there to help, but Draco needed his own arc, which he got in HBP.

I hadn't really thought about Harry's emotions this way before, but now I look back and see the way they're sort of always written that way. Whatever he feels he feels with his whole self, which is probably why in OotP there's times where it honestly feels like some sort of anger pinball. He's just always reacting to all these things that make him frustrated and angry all the time, and that controls his actions. He rarely isn't acting out of how he feels, whereas presumably Draco does do that plenty of times. There's a lot of times where we know what he must feel underneath, but his surface behavior is often really against that.

[lanjelin.livejournal.com]

I was hoping for a Draco-arc actually, and was really happy to get one.

Heh, their differences make them sound really compatible for some reason, and overall they're so alike that it would probably work too! Anyway, one of Harry's problems is that even though he often acts on his emotions he never talks about them. And then he explodes. Though it takes quite a lot before he does, but still.

With Draco it's too much guesswork for me to really have a good grip on his character. I think what you're saying sounds very likely though!

[static-pixie.livejournal.com]

Harry is our hero and so it's his personal strengths that will see him through, and the author has probably chosen a personality to which she herself most relates.

I think this is my major sticking point with JKR, actually. I mean, I guess every writer creates protagonists s/he can most relate to, but sometimes I feel like JKR has done it to the extent that she doesn't really relate at all to some characters. It's like, I feel I read somewhere that JKR said she had absolutely nothing in common with Umbridge or something like that, but she'd have to in order to write her so well. It's like in the interview she did with Leaky where she said that Draco is someone to be pitied...and that's it. It's like, she understands them, but she can't relate to the way they go about things. Or doesn't want to think she can, or something like that. It's the way she says the books aren't pushing any specific type of morality, but then gets "worried" when people start likeing Draco too much because she doesn't actually get how they could or refuses to. Which bugs me. A lot, actually. Because sometimes I really feel like she is saying if athletes are good, bookish people must be bad. Or maybe I'm just too sensative when it comes to Draco, or something crazy like that, I dunno. :D I just know that I see a lot of Draco in both Ron and Ginny, but I feel like if I said that to her, she'd beat me over the head with something.

But anyway, great essay, as usual! Although I think that she's cheated a bit with Harry. He does let his emotions rule a lot of the time, but then a lot of the time, his will tends to agree with his emotions anyway (so it's not so much his emotions ruling his will as it is his emotions ruling his head), whereas Draco's emotions never agree with his will, which I think is just because love has to win out and you can't have love following will, but will following love is ok. So I think Draco actually inherently has the longer road to travel, just because of the way the books are (grumbles). Just to add to your point, though, both Draco and Harry had Major Moment of Conflict at the end, and in Harry's case it was one where his will had to dominate (poisoning Dumbledore) and in Draco's case, he had to let his heart take over (not killing Dumbledore because he didn't want to). Which is interesting, because I'd come away from the book thinking that Harry was most Slytherin when he was forcing Dumbledore to drink and the opposite for Draco, but now I'm reconsidering. And if you want to put Draco, Harry and Snape into a sort of Trio, I think your point actually makes an excellent case for Snape's having killed Dumbledore out of love rather than spite, although I can't quite articulate how right now.

Bravo!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I have exactly the same problems with the books--and yeah, it does seem silly to suggest they're not pushing a specific morality. Maybe there are ways that JKR feels she's not pushing it, but she often just doesn't seem to realize when she's making judgments. Sometimes she acts like we just all already agree on these things. Like when Hermione says that line about books and cleverness I think she might just take that as a given and not know that a lot of people would take exception to that line.

I agree even more when it comes to Umbridge--other people have even pointed out that Umbridge and Hermione (her stand-in character) are often very much alike! It's hard to believe that Umbridge is hard for her to write in the way that a really foreign character would be. But then, there are ways in which all the characters are so alike that it seems that way. That's, again, why it's so weird when she starts worrying about people like Draco or whatever, because from my pov he's really *not* so different from the heroes as she seems to think he is. At all.

Just to add to your point, though, both Draco and Harry had Major Moment of Conflict at the end, and in Harry's case it was one where his will had to dominate (poisoning Dumbledore) and in Draco's case, he had to let his heart take over (not killing Dumbledore because he didn't want to).

Ooh, I hadn't thought of it that way, but yes it's true. In fact, they're whole storylines are sort of the opposite. Harry does seem to have to kill Voldemort and he did have to feed Dumbledore the potion despite it hurting him. Draco's task is also to kill, but it's more important that he choose not to do it and not have the nerve.

[woman-ironing.livejournal.com]

Here via the Snitch. I've really enjoyed reading this essay and the comments following. Dumbledore trying to get Harry to do occlumency in OotP always seemed to be barking up the wrong tree (Though Harry did learn some useful things about Snape, the Marauders and Lily as a result.) because in fact it was Harry getting into Voldemort's mind and discovering helpful info not vice versa - until Voldemort finally twigged and used it against him, of course. It didn't seem that important for Harry to block out Voldemort because he'd already shown (in GoF) that he had the stronger will. I suppose Snape's right that now it would be a good idea for Harry to be develop some occlumency skills, if he's hoping to succeed in casting any spells on Voldemort, that is. If Harry can see occlumency and legilimency as expressions of will he might manage it. Perhaps Snape's technique - suppressing emotions - is only necessary if you are the weaker party.

Can Harry actually learn anything from Snape? This is perhaps another way of asking is Snape good or bad. Harry's instincts are usually right, but JKR has made it impossible to be sure. This week I'm in the Snape:bad camp, and believe that Snape is a reluctant ally of Dumbledore and is only working for him for his own protection. If we've seen Snape apparently protecting Harry on occasion it's because Snape's survival depends on Harry's survival. I've got a bitofatheory about this but don't know if half a million other people have already had the theory before.

Your discussion with Anonymous about Draco was fabulous! Draco didn't devote himself to Voldemort's task only because his parents lives were at stake. He was just as strongly, perhaps more, motivated by ambition. If he achieved his goal he would prove himself to be everything that so far he was not: strong, powerful, important, successful, Voldemort's right hand man. He really wanted this! In his conversation with Dumbledore in the tower you could clearly see the conflict between his concern for his parents, his ambition for himself and his horror at what he'd agreed to do to, but the conflict was not really resolved.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Can Harry actually learn anything from Snape?

That's a good question someone else asked recently. I figure it's possible that Snape could accidentally teach Harry things, like the way Snape is presenting it is wrong, but the idea behind it is right. So maybe Occlumency itself isn't the goal, but there's still something to be said for Harry not letting people use his open emotions against him.

If he achieved his goal he would prove himself to be everything that so far he was not: strong, powerful, important, successful, Voldemort's right hand man. He really wanted this! In his conversation with Dumbledore in the tower you could clearly see the conflict between his concern for his parents, his ambition for himself and his horror at what he'd agreed to do to, but the conflict was not really resolved.

Yes! That's why I think it's wrong when people reduce it to just how it sounds on the surface, with Draco wanting "glory" of the stupidest kind. That would be like saying everything Harry did in the books and felt he had to do himself was just about glory as well. These are coming of age books. It's important he be able to do a man's job. He just happens to exist on the side where a man's job is a bad thing. But he can't really choose not to be on that side until he is a man, if that makes sense.

[(Anonymous)]

Oooh, I'm officially known as Anonymous now, am I? ;)

That's what I love about Draco. The fact that he doesn't do anything for one reason (or at least, he does everything strictly on his emotions, but he always feels like a billion emotions, so his reactions are all based on that). Obviously, he did want a bit of glory. But then who doesn't? Ron wanted some of that for himself, didn't he? And of course, he wanted to protect his parents. But you know, a part of me really believes that Draco did it to right a wrong he thinks he did. Because I believe that taking the offer, to him, *was* a sort of redemption. Because I have to wonder ... does Draco blame himself for his father's capture and imprisonment?

It just doesn't seem like JKR would have him so heavily involved with Harry and the DA member's escape to the Ministry for no reason. I like to imagine him as the kid with the divorcing parents, who illogically thinks that it never would have happened if he had done something, anything, differently. I'm not saying it really is his fault but I can totally imagine him blaming himself. I mean, think about it from his perspective.

He's in charge of the Iquisitorial Squad, and he has Harry Potter and the DA members trapped in Umbridge's office. He even has Harry's wand in his pocket! Hermione then starts prattling on about a secret weapon in the forest. Draco has such a low opinion of Hermione, and known her for so long, he *should* have realized straightaway that she was lying. Then Umbridge declares that she's going with the Trio, alone, and into the Forest, to see this weapon. Draco protests, Umbridge cuts him down, and Draco, being so easily intimidated by authoritative figures, subsides immediately. He doesn't protest again. Had he pressed *harder*, though, than Umbridge *surely* would have listened to reason and selected someone else to go with her. Maybe not him, but somebody. He's in charge of the DA members while she's gone. But Ginny hits him with a Bat-Bogey Hex and then they head off straight to the Ministry and straight to Harry.

I really think that Draco has never taken responsibility for anything before. He not only points the blame at others, but, more importantly, he truly *believes* that they're the ones to blame, not him. But the stark reality that he's to blame for his father's capture? That's something even he can't avoid. That's a blame that he can't shift to anybody else. It's just too big for that, and he loves his father too much for that. But, I can so see this guilt as a reason Draco would be so excited to be a Death Eater, his compensation for his earlier mistake, and I can see it as a huge milestone in his life that would make him later on able to take responsibility of a more logical sense, which is the ultimatum that Dumbledore gave him. I can't make myself believe that being a Death Eater alone was what changed him so drastically. He's going through hell, yes, but there's so much more to that. And I can't believe that the only reason Lucius was imprisoned was so that Draco could be put through that hell, either.

- Gabby