Amateur HP Psychology

[sistermagpie]

I am not getting any e-mail and I don't know why. They just started coming, but anything from today before the last ten minutes seems to be gone.

I've been reading this book on the Shadow as in Jung (kind of a theme lately) and I'm reading about how the Shadow is all the things you repress in yourself, so you're enraged when you see them in other people. So somebody else could be a terrible person but wouldn't bother you as much because you're not repressing those kinds of things too much. What's horrible about it is I'm reading and knowing that my shadow…

Is post-GoF Ginny Weasley.

She's not the only one, obviously, but oh my god she so is my shadow. When I hear anyone defending her--even reasonably--I am filled with rage. Of course, being who I am (what I repress) I have to try to listen objectively and even admit when the person has a point, because I always want to be accurate and blah blah. Sometimes even I have to defend her because something's off. But what I really want to do is hex the person so that they shut up. Or say something mean that's probably like, "Don't start talking about Quidditch, you'll only embarrass yourself." Or run into the person and put them in the infirmary. This is why it's so strange when people say one must hate Ginny because one wants Harry for herself, because when Harry is liking Ginny it's hard for me to just not see him as a jerk. Like I picture them in their 30s as some dreadful couple I'd avoid. Unfortunately this isn't exactly objective canon analysis, so I can't usually just say that.

The one good thing about this is Lupin is a lot like me in this way--I mean, the kind of stuff he swallows--so maybe he hates her too. I believe when Ginny is throwing her temper tantrum in OotP Lupin quietly shuts the door. For Lupin that's probably the equivalent of smacking her in the face. Poor guy has to live with her.

Oh, the other thing I just read in one essay in the book that we tend to notice and react to Shadow things more in our own gender than the opposite gender--we can ignore stuff when it's in the other gender. I guess that's where fandom's OMG U R JUS JELLUS AND U DON'T LIKE GIRLZ!!1!!1

I was thinking about this in my ballet class, mostly because I have another Shadow problem there, or maybe it's just a pet peeve. Okay, in a dance class you often split into groups to do combinations. There is this woman who always GOES WITH ALL THE GROUPS! In this case there's just the two groups, but it drives me up a tree. The point is to split up so there's room. Yes, she's just one more person, but why the hell does she get to decide that she's the person who gets to dance whenever she wants because everyone else is only going once? What if everybody just decided to do that? (And btw, we're talking about somebody who's in class with some professional dancers--not me--and is herself not even really on the level the class is at. Every time I see her doing it I start stewing. Also she always winds up standing near me so I'm wishing there wasn't somebody so close to me because I don't like people behind me and look--it's her!

Comments

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

the Shadow is all the things you repress in yourself, so you're enraged when you see them in other people

Heh. I think the fact that I see a lot of the things I dislike about myself in Snape is why I cannot fathom the great love people have for him. He's bitter, he's mean, he's jealous, he desperately craves recognition and wants to belong to the most powerful group so he can avenge past slights and wrongs...

[quidditchmaster.livejournal.com]

...I mean, the kind of stuff he swallows...

Perfect word choice for a seemingly slash-centric fandom, don't you think? ;)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL--isn't it crazy? Sometimes you just want to shake people.:-)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, baby!

[guza.livejournal.com]

I don't know anything much about the Shadow or Jung etc, but this:

When I hear anyone defending her--even reasonably--I am filled with rage.

is exactly how I feel too. :/ Not such a good thing, is it, hahaha?

It's completely ridiculous, but whenever someone talks about Ginny (unless they're talking about why they dislike her etc.), I just want them to shut up, no matter what they're actually saying. Anything about her just makes me so cranky.

Woe.

*starts club*

For Lupin that's probably the equivalent of smacking her in the face. Poor guy has to live with her.

Haha, I hope so. I'm glad someone has the potential to feel that way in the books.

[guza.livejournal.com]

Also, the funny thing is that no other character (except sometimes, but not to that extent, the Twins and Sirius and James) inspire such a reaction.

*offers you a whip for teaching-LJ-a-lesson purposes*

Have been getting comments today that had been left a couple of weeks ago.

[cs-luis.livejournal.com]

See, that's interesting, and it probably goes toward explaining why I don't feel strongly about Ginny at all. She just exists in canon to me, and I don't hate her the way I dislike, say, Molly, who likely is a Shadow to me. (Shudder.)

(Like I picture them in their 30s as some dreadful couple I'd avoid.

FWIW, svenskaa and I always imagine that Harry and Ginny will hook up and have a shotgun wedding when they're like 23, but it'll last about 10 months before Harry starts spending a lot of time with Draco and Ron and Hermione have to take custody of the baby and Ginny goes off and has an affair....)

[teratologist.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure who my Shadow is, because I tend to develop a dislike of anyone when I hear people defend them too much (and conversely, I tend to get to like anybody I hear people slagging on - I've developed a great deal more sympathy for Hermione from reading the Snarkery than I ever got from reading the books.) I suppose it's probably Dumbledore, since he's exactly the sort of character I immediately dislike for being such an arrogant bastard when I'd far rather be the only arrogant bastard in the room.

[romeoambiences.livejournal.com]

I don't know very much about Jung, but I have recently come across some ideas of his on the shadow which interest me as pertains to Draco. (What a big surprise that is! *grins*)

Here are some quotes I found:

Good does not become better by being exaggerated, but worse, and a small evil becomes a big one through being disregarded and repressed. The shadow is very much a part of human nature, and it is only at night that no shadows exist.
"A Psychological Approach to the Dogma of the Trinity" (1942) In CW 11: Psychology and Religion: West and East. P.286

--seems like the current situation in the HP universe at present

Just as we tend to assume that the world is as we see it, we naively suppose that people are as we imagine them to be. In this latter case, unfortunately, there is no scientific test that would prove the discrepancy between perception and reality. Although the possibility of gross deception is infinitely greater here than in our perception of the physical world, we still go on naively projecting our own psychology into our fellow human beings. In this way everyone creates for himself a series of more or less imaginary relationships based essentially on projection.
"General Aspects of Dream Psychology" (1916). In CW 8: The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche. P.507

--or assume that as a woman you know how it is

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It seems like in fandom you have to also deal with these shadow figures of the characters themselves. Like, there's Hermione in the books and then the running Hermione commentary on t_s that builds on itself. Or like with Snape I like him, but enough "Snape is really a big teddy bear and he's hurting inside because of being picked on!" makes you want him dead.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Now that is an epilogue I would like to read!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's completely ridiculous, but whenever someone talks about Ginny (unless they're talking about why they dislike her etc.), I just want them to shut up, no matter what they're actually saying. Anything about her just makes me so cranky.

I know! It's like...everyone just needs to not try to change my mind here. For their own good.:-)

I'm glad someone has the potential to feel that way in the books.

He was probably sitting there thinking, "Greyback would just sleep next to her one night during the full moon. I wonder if Molly would notice. I'm sure she wouldn't be sad for long. I'd probably get stuck comforting her anyway."

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL--Oh yeah. So much stuff is just assumed we all reacting the same way here.

Draco is totally one big Shadow in the books--him and the rest of the Slytherins, really. JKR even says how he represses his compassion and all that. That would make his Shadow self the compassionate guy. You know, the one who kept him from killing Dumbledore!

[anamirza.livejournal.com]

Post-GOF Ginny irks me, but more for the lack of continuity of character than anything else. I'd have to say my Shadow character is probably Ron, as he tends to get my big irrational reaction, probably partly because I grew up, you know, without a lot of money, but It's Not Who I Am - only of course, sometimes it is.

Which would also explain why I dislike Ron/Hermione. I mean, how self-absorbed would that be?

[saturniia.livejournal.com]

Hmm... see, this is why I like reading you. You make me wish I had my entire library (small as the nonfiction section is) with me in my dorm room, so I won't have to hike across campus to brush up on what exactly a Shadow is, and how it differs from the Freudian animus and anima.

Got no comments on Shadows and HP canon at the moment, but I can totally relate to your hating people who stand behind you for no good reason! (I'm one of those people who will always work my way to the back of the elevator if my floor isn't the next one up.)

[saturniia.livejournal.com]

So if a Shadow has a Shadow self, then he isn't a Shadow, is he?

I mean, we might argue that he's Ron's Shadow, but he can't just be a Shadow of nobody, because then... oh, my head's starting to hurt.

That said, Voldemort's got the most obvious Shadow self in the books: Harry Potter. Voldemort's rational where Harry is passionate, fanatical where Harry could care less, hateful where Harry is apathetic... the list goes on.

[saturniia.livejournal.com]

*falls over laughing*

It's all the fault of Puppy Love (for Grownups!), I tell you, even if fandom's totally slash-friendly even when the protagonists are not our favorite pups.

Now that ("Puppy Love (for Grownups)!") just makes me want to write a post-Azkaban Remus/Sirius fic (which I usually can't stand to read). I mean, how immature must p-A Sirius be, really?

*shakes head* Homework first with meta and bathroom breaks, then fanfic!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, people can have lots of different Shadows, and those Shadows can have Shadows themselves. They just reflect different things in each other. So Harry can have Shadows in Dudley, Voldemort, Snape, Draco, etc...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--exactly! Sure I might be happier if I could make peace with the characters I don't like, but oh well.:-)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I haven't gotten that far into the book of essays, so it won't take long for you to catch up to my knowledge!

Even when I was little I always wanted to be at the back of the line in school. The one time I got in trouble in line up I was fighting with someone over who got to be last!

[samaranth.livejournal.com]

I’m not familiar with Jung, but I’m familiar with the feeling of instant antipathy. One part of me castigates myself for intolerance, but the other part goes ‘yeah, but no, but yeah, but, look how aggravating that person is, I mean, really, you know, fair’s fair.’

One of the mother’s at J’s school has this effect on me, severely. Just to see her walking past me on the street sends my blood pressure up a couple of notches. Her clothes? Her attitude? Her obvious and blinding stupidity? I find it very puzzling. (And no doubt she finds me doing a puzzled wrinkly glare at her for no reason kind of alarming too.)

And I don’t think I’ve ever really spoken to her, which makes this all the more unreasonable. However, I may leave the question open as to whether she reflects some aspects of myself that I have repressed. I have enough of them that I do know about, I don’t need to be reminded of the repressed ones as well. :)

I think in HP, the character that I feel this most strongly about isn’t Ginny, it’s Molly. Rereading the final chapters of GoF, I keep having to restrain myself from throwing the book across the room.

[onthehillside.livejournal.com]

Like I picture them in their 30s as some dreadful couple I'd avoid.

Um, thank you for verbalizing everything that I haaaaaaaaaate about canon Harry/Ginny.

[saturniia.livejournal.com]

Oh, right. I suppose I was thinking too much in the binary. I'm just saying that there can't be a Shadow without an anchor. If a character is "not ____" there needs to be another character out there, in the same canon, who is "____". That's all I'm saying.

The relationship between readers and the characters in the text is the exception to this rule, naturally.

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

Ooh, I get that. I don't really hate any of the characters except for, y'know, Voldemort and Umbridge, but there are times when Hermione really annoys me. And I practically am Hermione, except that I have more tact (not saying much). I just want to shout at her to stop being like that about the HBP and such -- when I'm quite bossy and a know-it-all and I would have hated whoever got valedictorian if it hadn't've been my best friend (who, oddly enough, is very different from me in a lot of places, so maybe that's the opposite of this? And that's also why I like Sirius so much, because other than that we both don't need to study we are NOTHING alike).

[thegraybook.livejournal.com]

When I hear anyone defending her--even reasonably--I am filled with rage.

Yes. I really wonder if JKR realizes how polarizing a figure Ginny is in fandom? Actually, scratch that, I'm sure she doesn't and probably all the better that she doesn't. I suppose one can say that everyone who dislikes Ginny as a character must want Harry for themselves, but this seems a limited view. For me, reading about Ginny is a disconnect - I recognize that the author really wants me to believe in the love of Harry and Ginny, but there's no life to it, no chemistry, no nothing, and the gaping hole between what the author intended and what's actually there on the page sucks all the life out of the narrative. In a way I envy those who buy the pairing. I am sure they're having a better reading experience than I am.