Deleted my last entry-fora while

[sistermagpie]

Because I realized there was no way it was going to come across the way it was in my head instead of as something else.

ETA: I didn't realize people had actually read it and wanted to comment. It seemed a little unfair to yank it in that case. I was able to find it by going back to a previous page, so here's the text of it again. Basically, I was worried that I'd accidentally made it sound like a big attack on Sam as a person/character that would leave me defending things I didn't really believe when really it was just that I thought it was a sloppy reset. But anyway, here's the basic idea of what I had said the first time around.



I've seen a couple of reactions that found the ep really emotional and providing for explanations of Sam's behavior, but to me it sort of felt like it was attempting to be emotional without dealing with the emotions it laid out for itself. So it was more like characters telling Dean where things stood now and since they had to get to a certain kind of resolution by the end of the ep they didn't have time for all the things that would have to be processed there. So I wound up feeling the way I often do with scripts that I feel weren't really well done, like I'm watching some alternate universe that only looks like the one I know but is probably some Ray Bradbury-esque illusion with a horrible reality underneath.

I'll willingly admit that maybe there's explanations coming that will make this make sense, and maybe be fine going forward, but the way it played to me last night was pure meta: the show ended on a pretty final note and they had to re-establish a new status quo that's almost like a pilot. So Sam had to be all over the place: justifying a deception by claiming he wanted to get Dean the life he wanted for himself but wouldn't take for himself and Bobby agreed with him, but showing very little investment in said life, to the point where by the end of the hour he seems to consider it a given that Dean should walk away from it.

There were times where I almost felt like I watching a character bashing fic, only without being sure which character was being bashed. The closest analogy I could think of in the scenes where Sam brings his new family to Dean's place and they proceed to mock it was that Dean had spent the summer at band camp and his bff Sam had made new friends on the swim team. Now he'd brought them to Dean's house so Dean could feel left out. Depending on the pov, the author's showing Sam getting a better family and shoving it in Dean's face LIKE DEAN DESERVES or the author's showing Sam being mean to poor Dean LIKE SAM ALWAYS IS.

Obviously I don't think it was either of those things intentionally, really, but that's the reason it came across as mostly awkward. Sam seemed as confused as anyone as to his behavior, and while that could be about some big traumatic revelation I don't know if JP is up to that if it is. (Sam's been numb for so long it's beginning to be just his personality.) I guess at this point I just don't trust that I'm being intentionally knocked off balance for a satisfying payoff instead of being asked to go along with the patch job and embrace Dean's conflict as organic instead of something he was tricked into (meaning not that Dean doesn't actually love Ben and Lisa but that it's now tied to people intentionally witholding information from him), and maybe be interested in there being even more male relatives running around.

Including one that was dead. As I said to someone earlier, apparently in the SPN universe if you're going to be pulled out of heaven or hell you must be gripped by the penis because nobody without one of those suckers is getting a second chance. When Samuel was telling Dean that he (Dean) reminded him of his (Dean's) mother I couldn't help but wish it was Mary that had been brought back. But then, I doubt a mom would go along with that kind of deception.

One thing I did love about the new Campbell members was oselle saying that wow, Sera Gamble really loves that "we've been fighting demons since the Mayflower!" thing and maybe we should look forward to a special Thanksgiving episode complete with period costumes!

I don't know. I saw some people saying their heart really broke for Dean, but I was only able to feel mildly annoyed on his behalf at being lied and condescended to throughout the ep. Even his choice not to go with Sam seemed less about protecting his family and more about nobody in their right mind agreeing to become the beta wolf in Sam's new pack. It was sort of another version of every fantasy of Sam's we've ever seen. ETA: "Beta wolf" being the word that came to mind not because Sam doesn't show any respect for Dean's ideas in the ep, but because whatever the reasons behind it, Dean's the newbie who isn't respected by anyone else in that team because he lived in a house with InStyle Magazine.

Thinking on it more, I thought of something that's going to sound very sexist but given the show that shouldn't be surprising. It seemed almost like Dean had to stay with Lisa and Sam because it was the only place where he was treated like a man. Like I said, sounds very sexist. But what I mean is that the whole plot against Dean was reminiscent of the way women were traditionally treated. He was lied to so that he couldn't make an informed decision about his life because people decided that was best to make him happy. When called on it they were defensive, feeling that Dean should be grateful. Basically they claimed Dean as a symbol to them. He was supposed to live the happy life that none of them wanted, but which made them feel good to have won for him. But at the same time you can't really respect somebody you're duping for their own good and out of your own good will. Lisa came out with far more dignity because when Dean tried to do the "I'm sorry I put you in this situation" she could truthfully say she had chosen it for herself. There really just isn't any good reason for letting your brother think you're being tormented eternally.

Comments

[trobadora]

That's a shame; I found it interesting and was going to come back to it after I actually watched the ep. (You're referring to the SPN post, yes?)

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

I've read it, and found it interesting, but I don't follow this show (I have watched only a few random eps), so I couldn't comment or even decide if I would agree with you if I followed it (LOL). Anyway, I'm sure that you can find a way to express your thoughts!

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

oh! that's a shame, i was just about to click it open from my email. SPN meta always interests me even though (or may because) I stay far far away from the show/fandom itself.

[swan-bite.livejournal.com]

character bashing. wow. so right.

you know, sometimes i'd see the plot holes and think that the action was a bit contrived but i'd overlook it, because i always felt like the show was emotionally honest. that whatever it took to get the boys hurt and caring about each other, excited and in danger even if it was ridiculous-- well, it had a truthful emotional core to it.

as a Samgirl, this episode was a bit crushing to me. for the first time, the plot was alright i guess but the emotional side was contrived as hell. instead of starting out with "what would the boys do?" they started with "the boys do this, how can we justify it?" the outcome was that Sam seemed indifferent and amazingly self-centered and Dean looked confused, like he didn't really know if he had the right to feel devastated about the Sam/Bobby betrayal. maybe a bit of coaching would have turned it around. like "Hey Jensen, look crushed," and "Jared, you'll act like shit was not given that day, but think REPRESSION not disconnection."

i've always felt like hunters get no respect until their resting in pieces and that snarky is default for both Campbell's and Winchesters, but i was soooooooooooooooo ready to be psyched about Mary's family and the addition of a female hunter and then i just wasn't. they weren't impressive, they felt uncomfortable and one-dimensional. i don't mind people giving Dean a hard time, he can dish it out then he can sure as hell take it, but the Campbell cockiness was insubstantial. you're pretty and dress slick but show me the epic, bitches or gtfo.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

Obviously I don't think it was either of those things intentionally

One of my longest-running complaints about this show is that I think the writers themselves don't know their own intentions. Or they think they do and then they change course midstream when whatever they did plan on doing turns out to be too challenging or just runs out of steam. I've been watching this show for a long time and I've so often been led astray by what I think the writers are trying to do, only to have my hopes just go out with a whimper. Then on top of it, I'll read some ridiculous interview where the writers talk so confidently about what their intentions were even though none of that ever made its way onscreen in any coherent way. We wind up with the writers sitting on panels TELLING us what they should have SHOWN us, but never did. It's that trust issue I'm always talking about. I don't trust these writers, and of all of them I trust Sera Gamble the least...and this year we don't even have Jeremy Carver around to kick out a few decent standalones.

Dean's the newbie who isn't respected by anyone else in that team because he lived in a house with InStyle Magazine.

The mockery of Dean's new life seemed especially ridiculous considering that the whole point of lying to Dean all year was supposedly to preserve that new life. I can appreciate that hunters who haven't "gotten out" (to use Bobby's words) might feel compelled to display a certain false bravado and scorn towards something they secretly envied (i.e., a normal life), but that seems awfully childish. I think this wasn't so much a slam at Dean's domestic situation as a lame bit of humor from the writers -- just as it was oh-so-funny to see Dean wearing a suit and eating healthy food in "It's a Terrible Life" (another Gamble episode), it's oh-so-funny to see Dean living in a nice house with golf clubs in the closet and women's magazines on the coffee table. Side splitting!

He was lied to so that he couldn't make an informed decision about his life because people decided that was best to make him happy. When called on it they were defensive, feeling that Dean should be grateful.

This is a very interesting point...it's like the whole "caged bird" philosophy that existed about women, especially in Victorian times. The ideal woman was supposed to be nearly childlike in her innocence (or rather, her ignorance), but that very virtue was also used to demean women as not being as smart or as strong as men. Which was very much the way the Campbells were all treating Dean throughout the episode. Not like someone who'd been hunting his whole life (and survived 40 years in hell and was party to averting the apocalypse) but like some sheltered little suburbanite who was too delicate to handle reality.

I couldn't help but wish it was Mary that had been brought back.

I talked to a friend after the episode and we both said, if any Campbell was going to come back from the great beyond it should've been Mary. But once again the show has gone into overkill mode -- Mitch Pileggi was great in that ONE episode so hey, let's bring back Mitch Pileggi!! Urgh.

[salty-catfish.livejournal.com]

I already wrote this comment on your entry earlier but then I had to leave for work sooner than anticipated. I haven't read your rewrite, but the first entry didn't read like an attack on Sam.

I agree about the episode feeling like some weird AU character bashing fic and the first 10 minutes being the most interesting part. I would have liked to see more of that dissonance. And I had exactly the same thoughts about Mary. I love Mary and her relationship to dean.

I guess at this point I just don't trust that I'm being intentionally knocked off balance for a satisfying payoff instead of being asked to go along with the patch job and embrace Dean's conflict as organic instead of something he was tricked into Yes.

And the whole deal with Dean being "out of his game" after one year pretty much broke my mind. But Oselle covered that part.

[nicefeet.livejournal.com]

I will be interested to see if it is the show holding some information back that is giving us these weird vibes. Because something has to be up with Sam, other than the obvious. Otherwise, WTH.

[kaiz.livejournal.com]

(finally back and able to reply! thanks for putting the post back up! :-)

I might be alone in my reactions to the ep because I mostly liked it, even though Sam and Bobby's behavior baffled the hell out of me. It felt as if the writers had two betas, each with totally different takes on the story and the characters, and the writers tried to satisfy everyone, with predictably unsatisfactory results! :-)

Sam had to be all over the place: justifying a deception by claiming he wanted to get Dean the life he wanted for himself but wouldn't take for himself and Bobby agreed with him, but showing very little investment in said life, to the point where by the end of the hour he seems to consider it a given that Dean should walk away from it.

This is the part about Sam's behavior that I couldn't figure out at all. It seemed to me more likely that, at the end of the ep, Sam would have said something like, "It was great hunting with you, bro. We're outta here now, but call if you need us." And then made puppy eyes to get Dean to admit that maybe, just maybe he missed the old life. Then, we could have had a couple of eps of Dean waffling until he finally gets off the fence and returns to hunting.

But the way it played out made Sam look extra special duplicitous to me--as if he were hiding some other, more important/sinister secrets from Dean about his missing year and the reason he didn't contact Dean (especially given the flickering street light--zomg a demon approacheth!--from the end of last season's finale)--which I don't think was the intention of the writers. I don't think that we were supposed to suspect Sam's motives here.

Dean's the newbie who isn't respected by anyone else in that team because he lived in a house with InStyle Magazine

This part was so bizarre to me, especially since Sam and Dean seemed to be considered major bad-ass hunters (not to mention the fact other hunters were gunning for them after they started the apocalypse and Sam and Dean kept eluding them). I mean, after being trained to be a hunter since he was 4 years old, killing all kinds of monsters, demons, and angels, one year out of the game and *poof* Dean is no longer considered to be a 'professional'? Huh? That left me scratching my head.

The mocking about golf, etc. was especially baffling since Samuel, Deanna, and Mary all lived in a nice house complete with books, magazines, records, and frilly curtains, too. Not to mention that we've seen other hunters living in nice suburban-type houses. It all made me wonder if the Campbells have a bad name of being batshitnuts as hunters, like Gordon did. With these folks as examples, no wonder Mary wanted out!

It seemed almost like Dean had to stay with Lisa and Sam because it was the only place where he was treated like a man.

I see what you mean, but I didn't quite get that vibe. To me, I got the sense that Dean actually liked the life he was living with Lisa--possibly especially the part of having a foster-son--but that he couldn't make peace with the fact that his happiness was coming at the expense of Sam's suffering. Also, I think that Lisa's conversation with him at Bobby's (which, btw, I think was one of the better written scenes in the whole show!) made him realize that he wasn't imposing upon Lisa and Ben, rather that they truly wanted him as part of the family, PTSD, OCD, and all. So now, he might be able to have both things: this family he is now part of, and the knowledge that Sam is alive and well. (Granted I might be over-reading the ep!)

I'm really hoping that they don't end up killing off Lisa and Ben. I'm probably in a teeny tiny minority here, but I actually like the Dean, Lisa, Ben dynamic.

[tofty.livejournal.com]

I agree with a lot you say here. I was troubled enough by the last episodes of season five that I was very anxious about the new season. While this episode doesn't Put Me Off The Show Forever, it makes me feel troubled (and, in equal parts intrigued) for the season ahead, mostly because I'm in the show for Sam and Dean, and the reconciliation I was promised in season five wasn't brought about in any sort of detailed or believable way for me, and here we are with the Winchesters farther apart than ever, goddamn it, and maybe there's a reconnection planned, but it seems almost impossible just at the moment, given Sam's puppet-mastering and Dean's confusion.

I was spoiled for a couple of EoMS details, and distinctly skeptical about the introduction of the Campbells, but it turns out that one thing I did like about this episode was just that. The Campbells are clearly going to be the sort of with-friends-like-these-who-needs-enemies allies that Sam and Dean seem to encounter on a regular basis, and I'm okay with that, I think.

I posted this on a fan board, but it turns out to be relevant to your talk about the Campbells' mockery of Dean, which I read differently, I think, from most, so I'm reposting it here:

[Gwen's teasing about Dean's "delicate features"] felt jarring to me too at first, but it's occurred to me that the Campbells, far from being convinced Dean's uselessly squishy now, actually want his skillz (to what purpose, who knows) on board. Samuel mentions that he wanted Dean along for the whole ride, and only backed away because Sam insisted; later, he tries challenging Dean back into hunting, and then he plays the Family Legacy angle, and when Dean resists both tacks, he's not above shaming Dean back into the life. Gwen's and Christian's mockery struck me as being a little pointed, along the same vein, and they come at Dean from angles he's extremely likely to be touchy about. After Dean pointedly asserts his professionalism to Christian, all three of the Campbells exchange a smiling look. And when Dean tells them to leave him and Sam alone to make the djinn-trap more tempting, they give in with only the most cursory argument from Samuel. Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole djinn attack wasn't engineered by Samuel to (1) demonstrate to Sam that Dean's never going to be safely out of the hunt, and (2) to drag Dean back into it.

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

I was quite let down by this episode, mainly for the reasons that you listed. I didn't care for the unevenness that Sam displayed. On the one hand he says he's been back pretty much the whole time but didn't tell Dean because he wanted Dean to have a normal life. On the other hand he snaps his fingers and expects Dean to just walk away from that normal life and resume hunting with the splendidly awful Campbell family. The contempt that the Campbells displayed towards Dean was completely unwarrented. As oselle said above, it made me wonder if Mary's desire to leave the hunting life had more to do with getting away from her creepy family than anything else.

Any parallels the writers had intended to put in to the pilot didn't work for me. This didn't feel like a clever role reversal. That was just the framework that allowed them to have Sam be cold and calculating. I presume that I'm supposed to think that Sam's time in the worst part of hell has caused him to become the cold, lying guy we saw here, but that wasn't shown in the episode. It felt more like Sam has chosen to be this way now because it was always in him to be this way.

The heavy-handed way in which they tried to make the Campbells, especially granddaddy Campbell seem mysterious and ominous didn't work for me because it was too heavy-handed.

I was very disappointed with the revelation that Bobby had gone along with Sam's deception. I know that the writers had to do something with Bobby, but this? Bobby was a drunken loser by the end of the first 5 seasons. I would have expected this knowledge to put him right over the edge.

I read an interview with Jensen Ackles in which he flat out stated that he was unhappy with the way Dean was being portrayed in S6, and now I can understand why.

[lucky-sometimes.livejournal.com]

Good to know I wasn't the only person who thought this episode stunk.

Actually I already knew this - the Supernatural thread on SA was just like 'what? that stunk. STUNK.'

Please, no more big glisteny Dean eyes, no more Sam's Adam's Apple. Just... Give me some monster of the week pretty soon, some banter. And some explanation, but you better do it well.