Because I realized there was no way it was going to come across the way it was in my head instead of as something else.

ETA: I didn't realize people had actually read it and wanted to comment. It seemed a little unfair to yank it in that case. I was able to find it by going back to a previous page, so here's the text of it again. Basically, I was worried that I'd accidentally made it sound like a big attack on Sam as a person/character that would leave me defending things I didn't really believe when really it was just that I thought it was a sloppy reset. But anyway, here's the basic idea of what I had said the first time around.



I've seen a couple of reactions that found the ep really emotional and providing for explanations of Sam's behavior, but to me it sort of felt like it was attempting to be emotional without dealing with the emotions it laid out for itself. So it was more like characters telling Dean where things stood now and since they had to get to a certain kind of resolution by the end of the ep they didn't have time for all the things that would have to be processed there. So I wound up feeling the way I often do with scripts that I feel weren't really well done, like I'm watching some alternate universe that only looks like the one I know but is probably some Ray Bradbury-esque illusion with a horrible reality underneath.

I'll willingly admit that maybe there's explanations coming that will make this make sense, and maybe be fine going forward, but the way it played to me last night was pure meta: the show ended on a pretty final note and they had to re-establish a new status quo that's almost like a pilot. So Sam had to be all over the place: justifying a deception by claiming he wanted to get Dean the life he wanted for himself but wouldn't take for himself and Bobby agreed with him, but showing very little investment in said life, to the point where by the end of the hour he seems to consider it a given that Dean should walk away from it.

There were times where I almost felt like I watching a character bashing fic, only without being sure which character was being bashed. The closest analogy I could think of in the scenes where Sam brings his new family to Dean's place and they proceed to mock it was that Dean had spent the summer at band camp and his bff Sam had made new friends on the swim team. Now he'd brought them to Dean's house so Dean could feel left out. Depending on the pov, the author's showing Sam getting a better family and shoving it in Dean's face LIKE DEAN DESERVES or the author's showing Sam being mean to poor Dean LIKE SAM ALWAYS IS.

Obviously I don't think it was either of those things intentionally, really, but that's the reason it came across as mostly awkward. Sam seemed as confused as anyone as to his behavior, and while that could be about some big traumatic revelation I don't know if JP is up to that if it is. (Sam's been numb for so long it's beginning to be just his personality.) I guess at this point I just don't trust that I'm being intentionally knocked off balance for a satisfying payoff instead of being asked to go along with the patch job and embrace Dean's conflict as organic instead of something he was tricked into (meaning not that Dean doesn't actually love Ben and Lisa but that it's now tied to people intentionally witholding information from him), and maybe be interested in there being even more male relatives running around.

Including one that was dead. As I said to someone earlier, apparently in the SPN universe if you're going to be pulled out of heaven or hell you must be gripped by the penis because nobody without one of those suckers is getting a second chance. When Samuel was telling Dean that he (Dean) reminded him of his (Dean's) mother I couldn't help but wish it was Mary that had been brought back. But then, I doubt a mom would go along with that kind of deception.

One thing I did love about the new Campbell members was [livejournal.com profile] oselle saying that wow, Sera Gamble really loves that "we've been fighting demons since the Mayflower!" thing and maybe we should look forward to a special Thanksgiving episode complete with period costumes!

I don't know. I saw some people saying their heart really broke for Dean, but I was only able to feel mildly annoyed on his behalf at being lied and condescended to throughout the ep. Even his choice not to go with Sam seemed less about protecting his family and more about nobody in their right mind agreeing to become the beta wolf in Sam's new pack. It was sort of another version of every fantasy of Sam's we've ever seen. ETA: "Beta wolf" being the word that came to mind not because Sam doesn't show any respect for Dean's ideas in the ep, but because whatever the reasons behind it, Dean's the newbie who isn't respected by anyone else in that team because he lived in a house with InStyle Magazine.

Thinking on it more, I thought of something that's going to sound very sexist but given the show that shouldn't be surprising. It seemed almost like Dean had to stay with Lisa and Sam because it was the only place where he was treated like a man. Like I said, sounds very sexist. But what I mean is that the whole plot against Dean was reminiscent of the way women were traditionally treated. He was lied to so that he couldn't make an informed decision about his life because people decided that was best to make him happy. When called on it they were defensive, feeling that Dean should be grateful. Basically they claimed Dean as a symbol to them. He was supposed to live the happy life that none of them wanted, but which made them feel good to have won for him. But at the same time you can't really respect somebody you're duping for their own good and out of your own good will. Lisa came out with far more dignity because when Dean tried to do the "I'm sorry I put you in this situation" she could truthfully say she had chosen it for herself. There really just isn't any good reason for letting your brother think you're being tormented eternally.
trobadora: (Castiel)

From: [personal profile] trobadora


That's a shame; I found it interesting and was going to come back to it after I actually watched the ep. (You're referring to the SPN post, yes?)
ext_7625: (longfire)

From: [identity profile] kaiz.livejournal.com


Ditto what trobadora said. I thought it was an interesting, well-thought-out post and was going to comment tonight when I had time to write up my thoughts.
ext_6866: (Default)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I didn't realize people had actually had time to read it--I searched around to try to find a copy in a page, so I'll put it up in this entry if you want to reply!

From: [identity profile] ptyx.livejournal.com


I've read it, and found it interesting, but I don't follow this show (I have watched only a few random eps), so I couldn't comment or even decide if I would agree with you if I followed it (LOL). Anyway, I'm sure that you can find a way to express your thoughts!
ext_6866: (Hmmmm..)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks! I may tuck it into this post since it seems kind of rude to put it up and yank it.

From: [identity profile] bookshop.livejournal.com



oh! that's a shame, i was just about to click it open from my email. SPN meta always interests me even though (or may because) I stay far far away from the show/fandom itself.
ext_6866: (Default)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I found it from a previous page, so I'm editing it into this entry. I didn't realize people had already read it and actually wanted to comment.

From: [identity profile] swan-bite.livejournal.com


character bashing. wow. so right.

you know, sometimes i'd see the plot holes and think that the action was a bit contrived but i'd overlook it, because i always felt like the show was emotionally honest. that whatever it took to get the boys hurt and caring about each other, excited and in danger even if it was ridiculous-- well, it had a truthful emotional core to it.

as a Samgirl, this episode was a bit crushing to me. for the first time, the plot was alright i guess but the emotional side was contrived as hell. instead of starting out with "what would the boys do?" they started with "the boys do this, how can we justify it?" the outcome was that Sam seemed indifferent and amazingly self-centered and Dean looked confused, like he didn't really know if he had the right to feel devastated about the Sam/Bobby betrayal. maybe a bit of coaching would have turned it around. like "Hey Jensen, look crushed," and "Jared, you'll act like shit was not given that day, but think REPRESSION not disconnection."

i've always felt like hunters get no respect until their resting in pieces and that snarky is default for both Campbell's and Winchesters, but i was soooooooooooooooo ready to be psyched about Mary's family and the addition of a female hunter and then i just wasn't. they weren't impressive, they felt uncomfortable and one-dimensional. i don't mind people giving Dean a hard time, he can dish it out then he can sure as hell take it, but the Campbell cockiness was insubstantial. you're pretty and dress slick but show me the epic, bitches or gtfo.
ext_6866: (Where was I going with this?)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


That was definitely what it felt like, like there was just a lot of things being established here and that was controlling everyone's reactions. And I can sympathize that it's hard to get them where they wanted in that amount of time but I can understand why that left a lot of people--me included--feeling like...what just happened?

I know one person's review that I read who I think is definitely a Sam fan said she felt like they took a lot of things that people who don't like Sam said and used that as the basis for his characterization. What's funny is I almost have to give him the benefit of the doubt because otherwise it would almost be comic!

Honestly, I barely remembered the one female of the group!

From: [identity profile] swan-bite.livejournal.com


I know one person's review that I read who I think is definitely a Sam fan said she felt like they took a lot of things that people who don't like Sam said and used that as the basis for his characterization.


the whole time Sam appeared on the screen i felt so amazingly head-tilty, like-- are you Kripke's!Sam or are you Ibsen's!Sam? which is it, Torvald?


Honestly, I barely remembered the one female of the group!


i did because i always think of SPN like this:

From: [identity profile] oselle.livejournal.com


Obviously I don't think it was either of those things intentionally

One of my longest-running complaints about this show is that I think the writers themselves don't know their own intentions. Or they think they do and then they change course midstream when whatever they did plan on doing turns out to be too challenging or just runs out of steam. I've been watching this show for a long time and I've so often been led astray by what I think the writers are trying to do, only to have my hopes just go out with a whimper. Then on top of it, I'll read some ridiculous interview where the writers talk so confidently about what their intentions were even though none of that ever made its way onscreen in any coherent way. We wind up with the writers sitting on panels TELLING us what they should have SHOWN us, but never did. It's that trust issue I'm always talking about. I don't trust these writers, and of all of them I trust Sera Gamble the least...and this year we don't even have Jeremy Carver around to kick out a few decent standalones.

Dean's the newbie who isn't respected by anyone else in that team because he lived in a house with InStyle Magazine.

The mockery of Dean's new life seemed especially ridiculous considering that the whole point of lying to Dean all year was supposedly to preserve that new life. I can appreciate that hunters who haven't "gotten out" (to use Bobby's words) might feel compelled to display a certain false bravado and scorn towards something they secretly envied (i.e., a normal life), but that seems awfully childish. I think this wasn't so much a slam at Dean's domestic situation as a lame bit of humor from the writers -- just as it was oh-so-funny to see Dean wearing a suit and eating healthy food in "It's a Terrible Life" (another Gamble episode), it's oh-so-funny to see Dean living in a nice house with golf clubs in the closet and women's magazines on the coffee table. Side splitting!

He was lied to so that he couldn't make an informed decision about his life because people decided that was best to make him happy. When called on it they were defensive, feeling that Dean should be grateful.

This is a very interesting point...it's like the whole "caged bird" philosophy that existed about women, especially in Victorian times. The ideal woman was supposed to be nearly childlike in her innocence (or rather, her ignorance), but that very virtue was also used to demean women as not being as smart or as strong as men. Which was very much the way the Campbells were all treating Dean throughout the episode. Not like someone who'd been hunting his whole life (and survived 40 years in hell and was party to averting the apocalypse) but like some sheltered little suburbanite who was too delicate to handle reality.

I couldn't help but wish it was Mary that had been brought back.

I talked to a friend after the episode and we both said, if any Campbell was going to come back from the great beyond it should've been Mary. But once again the show has gone into overkill mode -- Mitch Pileggi was great in that ONE episode so hey, let's bring back Mitch Pileggi!! Urgh.
ext_6866: (Hanging on a branch)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Then on top of it, I'll read some ridiculous interview where the writers talk so confidently about what their intentions were even though none of that ever made its way onscreen in any coherent way. We wind up with the writers sitting on panels TELLING us what they should have SHOWN us, but never did.

This is so true. And that's going to be even worse with the situation where where the show clearly ended at the end of last season. Not only are they trying to reset everything with Dean in Sam's place but there's this whole introduction of the awesome Campbell family.

I think this wasn't so much a slam at Dean's domestic situation as a lame bit of humor from the writers -- just as it was oh-so-funny to see Dean wearing a suit and eating healthy food in "It's a Terrible Life" (another Gamble episode), it's oh-so-funny to see Dean living in a nice house with golf clubs in the closet and women's magazines on the coffee table. Side splitting!

I definitely thought that--even though there wasn't anything particularly emasculated about Dean's life. He'd somehow found himself that job that was pretty traditionally masculine, he was protecting his home, he was teaching a son how to fix cars.

On one hand I totally bought the hunter's attitude towards it. They're part of a subculture that's going to have all these conflicting feelings about it and I totally buy that this type of bravado is part of the package. Wasn't it even the girl who mocked the InStyle (while looking pretty, natch!). But it just pointed out the messiness of the story intentions. Like I said in your lj, we've got Sam who's committed himself to lying to his brother in an incredibly huge way, and bringing Bobby into it, but then he tosses it out the window for a couple of lame djinn with a weak motivation for going after Dean. Then he's telling Dean that he's doing this family a disservice by staying with them.

Again, they probably didn't intend it, but okay, this ep is sort of a flip of the pilot: Dean's got the domestic life and Sam wants him to hunt. But Sam's arc seems to have been coming to realize that he can't have that real life. So you could almost look at his actions here and feel like he set Dean up to go through the same thing he did. I don't think that's what he was supposed to be doing and it wasn't played that way, but I wonder if they thought, "Hey, Sam specifically wanted Dean to have the life he was going for in the pilot and by the end of the ep he's telling him he's wrong to want it." It doesn't seem like they did.

Total agreement on the Mitch Pileggi idea. If they wanted him I think the least they could have done was just make him an unknown Campbell (since there are so many of them, apparently!) who just looks like Samuel. It's just way too obviously he was chosen out of everyone to come back to life because he was played by Mitch Pileggi.

From: [identity profile] oselle.livejournal.com


they probably didn't intend it, but okay, this ep is sort of a flip of the pilot

But that is what they intended. At ComicCon the writers and the actors were all talking about the big "role reversal." So we're definitely supposed to see this as a flip of the pilot.

But it doesn't even work as that because Sam supposedly wanted Dean to have this life, to the extent that he made Dean promise that he would pursue it. Dean never exacted any deathbed oaths from Sam about getting a law degree. It's also such a false equivalency...Sam in the pilot was still pretty much a kid. He was a grad student with a committed relationship, but at the age of twenty-two, nothing is set in stone. And even though Dean didn't really "get" Sam's life, he still drove him back to Stanford to continue living it...and in time for his job interview to boot. I've heard people say that Dean dragged Sam back into the hunting life, but he didn't...he just dragged Sam out of the trap the YED had set for him, and after Jessica died it was Sam who wanted to get on the road and hunt him down. I don't think the show plans to torch Lisa and Ben, but they're going to have to find some reason to get Dean back in the game and judging from the way the djinn was used in this episode, I suspect that reason will be hopelessly lame.
ext_6866: (WTF?)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Yes! That's exactly what seemed so weird, that the parallels to the pilot were obvious but it seemed like they weren't being very careful about the ways that it wasn't. Like, they must see them but they're not important. The motivations in the pilot were straightforward and here they were weirdly twisted but it's almost like they were presented as if they weren't. Dean's motives are muddled because he's been manipulated and lied to and Sam's motives are muddled because they just are.

From: [identity profile] salty-catfish.livejournal.com


I already wrote this comment on your entry earlier but then I had to leave for work sooner than anticipated. I haven't read your rewrite, but the first entry didn't read like an attack on Sam.

I agree about the episode feeling like some weird AU character bashing fic and the first 10 minutes being the most interesting part. I would have liked to see more of that dissonance. And I had exactly the same thoughts about Mary. I love Mary and her relationship to dean.

I guess at this point I just don't trust that I'm being intentionally knocked off balance for a satisfying payoff instead of being asked to go along with the patch job and embrace Dean's conflict as organic instead of something he was tricked into Yes.

And the whole deal with Dean being "out of his game" after one year pretty much broke my mind. But Oselle covered that part.
ext_6866: (Hmmmm..)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks! This is mostly the same entry as before, same idea anyway.

I do love Mary. And it seemed somehow...fitting? I mean, fitting with the way things to pan out on this show that Dean was openly described as being like Mary in the same ep that his hunting skills were being questioned because he was too domestic. Where Sam presumably is now accepting that he's just like John.

Of course, if it had been Mary who came back it would be even more impossible to believe that she'd lie to Dean about Sam being alive than Bobby would.

From: [identity profile] oselle.livejournal.com


Maybe Mary will come back from the dead to rescue Dean from her relatives. I'm starting to suspect the Campbells themselves are the reason Mary opted out of the hunting life.
ext_7625: (parallax)

From: [identity profile] kaiz.livejournal.com


I'm starting to suspect the Campbells themselves are the reason Mary opted out of the hunting life.

I was wondering that too. I found them all, including Gramps, to be very creepy, and not in a good way!

From: [identity profile] nicefeet.livejournal.com


I will be interested to see if it is the show holding some information back that is giving us these weird vibes. Because something has to be up with Sam, other than the obvious. Otherwise, WTH.
ext_6866: (Don't know yet)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Yeah, two seasons ago when something seemed off about Sam it seemed obvious that there was information being held back. But here it almost seemed like the surprise was that there wasn't. Maybe I'm wrong and we'll hear something big that happened in that cage (and btw, did anyone ask about Adam? He was in that cage too, wasn't he?) but Sam said he'd been back for a year.
ext_7625: (dark sky)

From: [identity profile] kaiz.livejournal.com


(and btw, did anyone ask about Adam? He was in that cage too, wasn't he?) but Sam said he'd been back for a year.

Having not heard any spoilers before seeing this episode, I actually kind of expected Sam's hunting partner to be Adam! Although I love MP, seeing a bunch of random Campbells show up just made me go, "So where the hell is Adam? Did he get brought back to? Is he still in the cage? Did he get sent to heaven? What, damn it?!"
ext_7625: (dark sky)

From: [identity profile] kaiz.livejournal.com


(finally back and able to reply! thanks for putting the post back up! :-)

I might be alone in my reactions to the ep because I mostly liked it, even though Sam and Bobby's behavior baffled the hell out of me. It felt as if the writers had two betas, each with totally different takes on the story and the characters, and the writers tried to satisfy everyone, with predictably unsatisfactory results! :-)

Sam had to be all over the place: justifying a deception by claiming he wanted to get Dean the life he wanted for himself but wouldn't take for himself and Bobby agreed with him, but showing very little investment in said life, to the point where by the end of the hour he seems to consider it a given that Dean should walk away from it.

This is the part about Sam's behavior that I couldn't figure out at all. It seemed to me more likely that, at the end of the ep, Sam would have said something like, "It was great hunting with you, bro. We're outta here now, but call if you need us." And then made puppy eyes to get Dean to admit that maybe, just maybe he missed the old life. Then, we could have had a couple of eps of Dean waffling until he finally gets off the fence and returns to hunting.

But the way it played out made Sam look extra special duplicitous to me--as if he were hiding some other, more important/sinister secrets from Dean about his missing year and the reason he didn't contact Dean (especially given the flickering street light--zomg a demon approacheth!--from the end of last season's finale)--which I don't think was the intention of the writers. I don't think that we were supposed to suspect Sam's motives here.

Dean's the newbie who isn't respected by anyone else in that team because he lived in a house with InStyle Magazine

This part was so bizarre to me, especially since Sam and Dean seemed to be considered major bad-ass hunters (not to mention the fact other hunters were gunning for them after they started the apocalypse and Sam and Dean kept eluding them). I mean, after being trained to be a hunter since he was 4 years old, killing all kinds of monsters, demons, and angels, one year out of the game and *poof* Dean is no longer considered to be a 'professional'? Huh? That left me scratching my head.

The mocking about golf, etc. was especially baffling since Samuel, Deanna, and Mary all lived in a nice house complete with books, magazines, records, and frilly curtains, too. Not to mention that we've seen other hunters living in nice suburban-type houses. It all made me wonder if the Campbells have a bad name of being batshitnuts as hunters, like Gordon did. With these folks as examples, no wonder Mary wanted out!

It seemed almost like Dean had to stay with Lisa and Sam because it was the only place where he was treated like a man.

I see what you mean, but I didn't quite get that vibe. To me, I got the sense that Dean actually liked the life he was living with Lisa--possibly especially the part of having a foster-son--but that he couldn't make peace with the fact that his happiness was coming at the expense of Sam's suffering. Also, I think that Lisa's conversation with him at Bobby's (which, btw, I think was one of the better written scenes in the whole show!) made him realize that he wasn't imposing upon Lisa and Ben, rather that they truly wanted him as part of the family, PTSD, OCD, and all. So now, he might be able to have both things: this family he is now part of, and the knowledge that Sam is alive and well. (Granted I might be over-reading the ep!)

I'm really hoping that they don't end up killing off Lisa and Ben. I'm probably in a teeny tiny minority here, but I actually like the Dean, Lisa, Ben dynamic.
ext_6866: (Two for joy of talking)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Totally agree with your first paragraph--and the whole comment, really. There are eps that I dislike because I didn't like what happened. But this ep made me feel--and reading some other comments around I know other people had the exact same feeling--that I kept expecting the whole thing to be an illusion. It wasn't so much *bad* as unsettling because of the behavior not making sense.

Like with Sam's decision to lie to Dean, I could totally buy that motivation. I would still think it was a terrible thing to do, but I could follow it if I thought Sam misguidedly thought it was a good idea. But then the plot of the ep totally undermined it. Just having Sam stay after he kills the djinn--shouldn't he have just run off? This MOTW wasn't really important enough to change Sam's commitment if he really believed it. And then they kill them together and Sam's telling Dean why it's not a good idea to stay with Ben and Lisa. I'm not seeing Sam really believing in this idea. Which leads, as you say, to wondering if there's some other secret here.

Then there's the Campbells who seem untrustworthy. They came across to me, too, like they were some sort of feral version of hunters. They kept talking about their bloodlines and I would have believed inbreeding. I mean, they almost seemed like that sort of stereotype!

To me, I got the sense that Dean actually liked the life he was living with Lisa--possibly especially the part of having a foster-son--but that he couldn't make peace with the fact that his happiness was coming at the expense of Sam's suffering.

Oh, I gave the wrong impression there. I did think Dean liked his life and I liked the dean, Lisa and Ben dynamic a lot! I was more commenting on how totally unappealing going with Sam seemed to me. I mean, I think his current life was attractive in itself. But when Sam asked him to come it seemed like a no-brainer in ways it wouldn't have been if it had felt more like Sam in an earlier season. The idea of having to get in a car with that family and Sam was like...even if Dean had been living on his own I can imagine him being reluctant to do that. That he had a life that was actually really valuable to him was almost unnecessary to the choice.
ext_7625: (Default)

From: [identity profile] kaiz.livejournal.com


I kept expecting the whole thing to be an illusion

I agree. The fact that there was a djinn involved really made me wonder what part of what we saw of Dean's life was real and what was wish fulfillment. So yeah, still much with the baffled! LOL

They came across to me, too, like they were some sort of feral version of hunters. They kept talking about their bloodlines and I would have believed inbreeding. I mean, they almost seemed like that sort of stereotype!

Yeah, I was kind of having True Blood Hot Shot flashbacks. *g* Seriously though, their demeanor and the fact that Gramps & Co. absconded with the female djinn made me wonder if maybe there is a big (moral) difference between the "Winchester Family Business" and the "Campbell Family Business", if you get my drift. Like, was that antivenin maybe derived from essence of live djinn?

The idea of having to get in a car with that family and Sam was like...even if Dean had been living on his own I can imagine him being reluctant to do that.

Oh, now I get what you mean, and yes, I agree! Riding off on the hunt with just Sam would be one thing. Joining this new posse + Sam, even if they are ostensibly family, is a whole different thing...even if Dean had been impressed with the Campbell clan--which he really didn't seem to be at all.

If this ep had been better written, I would wonder if the writers were trying to pose a question about "what is family?" Dean's created this family with Lisa that is not his blood but is still a powerful committment. And here is Sam and his grandfather and all these other folks who are related by blood, and yet.

Hmm. :-)

From: [identity profile] tofty.livejournal.com


I agree with a lot you say here. I was troubled enough by the last episodes of season five that I was very anxious about the new season. While this episode doesn't Put Me Off The Show Forever, it makes me feel troubled (and, in equal parts intrigued) for the season ahead, mostly because I'm in the show for Sam and Dean, and the reconciliation I was promised in season five wasn't brought about in any sort of detailed or believable way for me, and here we are with the Winchesters farther apart than ever, goddamn it, and maybe there's a reconnection planned, but it seems almost impossible just at the moment, given Sam's puppet-mastering and Dean's confusion.

I was spoiled for a couple of EoMS details, and distinctly skeptical about the introduction of the Campbells, but it turns out that one thing I did like about this episode was just that. The Campbells are clearly going to be the sort of with-friends-like-these-who-needs-enemies allies that Sam and Dean seem to encounter on a regular basis, and I'm okay with that, I think.

I posted this on a fan board, but it turns out to be relevant to your talk about the Campbells' mockery of Dean, which I read differently, I think, from most, so I'm reposting it here:

[Gwen's teasing about Dean's "delicate features"] felt jarring to me too at first, but it's occurred to me that the Campbells, far from being convinced Dean's uselessly squishy now, actually want his skillz (to what purpose, who knows) on board. Samuel mentions that he wanted Dean along for the whole ride, and only backed away because Sam insisted; later, he tries challenging Dean back into hunting, and then he plays the Family Legacy angle, and when Dean resists both tacks, he's not above shaming Dean back into the life. Gwen's and Christian's mockery struck me as being a little pointed, along the same vein, and they come at Dean from angles he's extremely likely to be touchy about. After Dean pointedly asserts his professionalism to Christian, all three of the Campbells exchange a smiling look. And when Dean tells them to leave him and Sam alone to make the djinn-trap more tempting, they give in with only the most cursory argument from Samuel. Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole djinn attack wasn't engineered by Samuel to (1) demonstrate to Sam that Dean's never going to be safely out of the hunt, and (2) to drag Dean back into it.
Edited Date: 2010-09-26 02:35 pm (UTC)
ext_6866: (Hmmmm..)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


That's where I am too--not put off the show forever, but it's hard to forget all the reconciliations we're always being promised!

That's a great reading of the Campbells there--it actually makes a lot of sense. I remember a lot of those moments, particularly how happy they looked when Dead had his professional line. I could definitely believe that Samuel had come up with that plan with them to do a run around Sam's stubborness about not including him! I hadn't thought of that possibility but it does make a lot of sense! (Of course, Sam wound up helping them anyway with the golf clubs comment and his speech at the end.)

From: [identity profile] tofty.livejournal.com


Yeah, Sam was pretty quick with the disparaging remarks, wasn't he? You'd think that with some fences to mend (or a LOT of MONUMENTALLY TALL fences! I mean, oh, Sam, Mr. Personal Agency, really?? I acquit both him and Bobby of malice, but that's some cold shit right there, a terrible thing to do to somebody just because you think you know better than he does what's best for him), he'd dial down the snark a little, but I guess that's just not his newfound style. :/

Anyway, I don't insist on my reading of the Campbells; it's just an idea that got into my head and won't shut up. And oh! Per the discussion you're having below: I'm okay with the role the Campbells are apparently going to play in the show, but I absolutely agree with you on the implausibility of their existence. The hunting community maybe isn't given to yearly barbecues, but it's a small and somewhat interconnected one, and while it seems remotely possible to me that Sam and Dean, raised in isolation (even by hunter standards) by a father who tended to alienate other hunters, might not have known about them, it seems much less likely that they'd not have heard of Sam and Dean. And unlikeliest of all that Bobby, who seems to know every hunter ever, hadn't heard of them or made the connection. Bobby, you are dropping the ball left and right, dude, maybe you need a rest too.

From: [identity profile] strangemuses.livejournal.com


I was quite let down by this episode, mainly for the reasons that you listed. I didn't care for the unevenness that Sam displayed. On the one hand he says he's been back pretty much the whole time but didn't tell Dean because he wanted Dean to have a normal life. On the other hand he snaps his fingers and expects Dean to just walk away from that normal life and resume hunting with the splendidly awful Campbell family. The contempt that the Campbells displayed towards Dean was completely unwarrented. As [livejournal.com profile] oselle said above, it made me wonder if Mary's desire to leave the hunting life had more to do with getting away from her creepy family than anything else.

Any parallels the writers had intended to put in to the pilot didn't work for me. This didn't feel like a clever role reversal. That was just the framework that allowed them to have Sam be cold and calculating. I presume that I'm supposed to think that Sam's time in the worst part of hell has caused him to become the cold, lying guy we saw here, but that wasn't shown in the episode. It felt more like Sam has chosen to be this way now because it was always in him to be this way.

The heavy-handed way in which they tried to make the Campbells, especially granddaddy Campbell seem mysterious and ominous didn't work for me because it was too heavy-handed.

I was very disappointed with the revelation that Bobby had gone along with Sam's deception. I know that the writers had to do something with Bobby, but this? Bobby was a drunken loser by the end of the first 5 seasons. I would have expected this knowledge to put him right over the edge.

I read an interview with Jensen Ackles in which he flat out stated that he was unhappy with the way Dean was being portrayed in S6, and now I can understand why.
ext_6866: (Hanging on a branch)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


The pilot parallels were really difficult for me too. As Oselle and I were saying uptrhead, it's like they think it's a clever reversal but it's actually apples and oranges, with Sam having to play both sides. Bobby going along with it still amazes me. From what we've been told it seems like Sam has been back for pretty much the whole time. They keep talking about it in terms of Dean having a happy life when the real lie was about letting somebody grieve. The logic seems to be that they had to make Dean think Sam was dead because then Sam could use the deathbed promise to force Dean to do what Sam wanted.

The Campbells really do seem awful. Part of that might even be just that it's so strange they exist. They were said to all be dead and one of them has been dead for over 30 years. It's too much a cheat even for this show, imo. And unnecessary, since they could have made him some Campbell who was played by the same actor. That would even make more sense because it would make those other Campbells an actual family.

From: [identity profile] strangemuses.livejournal.com


One of the many things that doesn't ring true to me about the Campbells is wondering where they've been all this time. Sam and Dean were apparently legendary (or perhaps infamous is a better word) among the other hunters. Why didn't the Campbell cousins approach them before? Why didn't Bobby mention them before? The whole hook with Bobby was that he was their pseudo-father/family because they had no one else left. Now we learn that Mom's side of the family has still been out hunting all along?

Sorry, but that absolutely doesn't work for me, especially not after all the talk about special bloodlines in the last couple seasons.

I also just don't believe that either Sam or Dean would just blindly accept that grandpa came back from the dead when Sam left Hell. That makes zero sense. Less than zero, actually. Likely it'll end up being part of some sinister plot with grandpa being evil, etc., etc., but .... yawn. How boring.

It would make me very happy if they wrapped at the end of S6 and allowed Dean to go back to Lisa and Ben and just live a normal life. He deserves it. Lisa and Ben deserve it. Let Sam have a 'get out of jail free' card and go off and try to make his own normal life. Kill Bobby after they get his soul back from Crowley. Let Castiel stay in heaven and just be done.


From: [identity profile] oselle.livejournal.com


I read an interview with Jensen Ackles in which he flat out stated that he was unhappy with the way Dean was being portrayed in S6, and now I can understand why.

This is interesting. I've heard Jensen complain about being stuck up in Vancouver or being overworked, but I've never heard him criticize the show's creative direction...if he's suddenly saying that he's unhappy with where his character's going, things must be pretty bad. Then again, I just saw Jensen quoted as saying he'd be totally on board for a seventh season, so he can't be that unhappy. Do you have a link to this interview by any chance?

From: [identity profile] oselle.livejournal.com

Re: Interview is somewhat spoilery so take care


Thanks for the link. That was pretty...startling. Like I said, I've never heard Jensen criticize the show itself. As circumspect as he is, if this is what he was willing to actually come out and say, then he must have been really pissed off...and I'd wager that he probably persuaded the writers to rework some of what they'd written for this season. That's the fortunate thing about Jensen -- he clearly takes his job seriously enough to question what the writers are doing, or at least to find a way to take what they give him and work with it so that it makes sense. I'm not being a gushing fangirl when I say that I think he's rescued scene after scene that would have been completely ludicrous if another actor had to try and pull them off. He's the bedrock of this show. And he's so pretty (that's the gushing fangirl talking!).

From: [identity profile] lucky-sometimes.livejournal.com


Good to know I wasn't the only person who thought this episode stunk.

Actually I already knew this - the Supernatural thread on SA was just like 'what? that stunk. STUNK.'

Please, no more big glisteny Dean eyes, no more Sam's Adam's Apple. Just... Give me some monster of the week pretty soon, some banter. And some explanation, but you better do it well.
ext_6866: (Good point.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


LOL! I'm just so picturing opening credits now that just show glisteny Dean eyes and Sam's Adam's apple.

And yeah, explanation, but good explanation please!
.

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