sistermagpie (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
sistermagpie) wrote2004-07-06 04:51 pm
sistermagpie) wrote2004-07-06 04:51 pm
Canon evidence
This came up recently and it got me to thinking. It has to do with finding "canon evidence" for a ship. It occurred to me I wasn't sure everybody was on the same page when it comes to what "canon evidence" is, and even what a ship is, really.
Okay, when I say I see evidence for a ship in canon, I'm referring to something pretty blatant. I mean I see things in canon that I believe the author is putting there to show me that one character is attracted to another, and would like to go out with them. Actually, I'd take it a step further and say one character has this feeling and it's not a crazy thing to wish for for that character. So, for instance, I see canon evidence of Arthur/Molly, because they are married and have children. I also see canon evidence of R/Hr, because I think Ron's doing things like buying perfume and being jealous of Viktor Krum is there to indicate that the idea of someone else with Hermione makes him a little jealous and that he has started, in his fumbly way, to want to treat her as a girl. I also saw it in Hermione's frustration at him in GoF. I saw canon evidence of Harry/Cho when Harry got flustered over how pretty she was and wanted to ask her to the dance, and when Cho started flirting back. Obviously these things can be one-sided, and someone having interest doesn't mean the two will end up together.
I would even consider it canon evidence when people say Remus and Sirius' joint Xmas present proves they are a couple, because gay couples, like married ones, tend to give one gift for both. I don't think the joint present means anything of the sort, but I would say that a person saying it is using it as evidence.
But it seems like often when people say "canon evidence" they mean more what I would think of as just...slash fodder. Like, I ship H/D, but I see no evidence that either boy is consciously attracted to the other in canon. Yes, I could say that Draco's obsession with Harry could be because he's attracted to him, but I've never seen anything that I thought was really telling me that's what's happening. For me OotP did not provide any more or less evidence for canon H/D, because their relationship stayed pretty much the same. Faced with competition from Umbridge and Snape, two adults with actual power, Draco's own ability to annoy paled considerably, but he continued to do what he always did. Harry was aware of him when he was in the room, he irritated Harry, he made him angry, he provided an easy behavior guide for Harry (if Malfoy would do it, Harry wouldn't), he dropped hints of doom to befall Harry's loved ones Harry couldn't stop. If OotP was from Draco's pov it may have been the slashiest book yet, imo. Interestingly, it seems like the biggest thing to happen to the H/D relationship in canon hasn't been all that dealt with in fanfic. Maybe I'm just missing the stuff because I haven't been reading much fic lately, but aside from a few very nice pieces, it doesn't seem like a lot of H/D writers have jumped on Harry's having taken Draco's father away and begun writing epics over it. That seems kind interesting in a way maybe I'll come back to.
OotP did, apparently, provide a lot more evidence for H/S. Now, I see that it provided a lot more fodder for slash but again I don't see a big change in the H/S relationship. Yes, Harry sees Snape differently after the Pensieve--that can't be denied. But not, imo, in a way that suggests he finds him any more attractive than he did before. More importantly, the Pensieve scene, as unique as it was, still followed the same pattern of all H/S interaction since book 1. Snape has always been the one to destroy Harry's view of a perfect father, Harry's seen Snape humiliated by MWPP before, they've always gotten on each other's nerves in a way that was disturbing to them because of its intimacy, Snape's tried to humiliate Harry, Harry's always humiliated Snape almost by accident. Snape's always been Harry's greatest protector, despite Snape and Harry's own disgust with that fact.
I think both these relationships (H/D and H/S) have stuff for slashers to work with, and both probably translate really nicely to smut. That is, I think both of them deal with issues that can be played out through sex, which to me has always seemed the basis of a lot of slash ships. So I guess it surprised me after OotP to hear one ship declared dead and the other the new thing. I mean, for obvious reasons I could see why people said that--Snape had a bigger part, one that made him briefly a sympathetic teenager, there was mind melding and loss of control. And Draco got none of the heavy attention-in fact a lot of his role was split between Snape (who became more taunting and more angry at Harry and provided more of a target for Harry's own anger-all things Draco used to do) and Harry himself (who became more taunting and more angry himself). But it really wouldn't occur to me to take this to mean that there was now more evidence for H/S simply because there's still nothing in either of these relationships that suddenly hint that Harry wants to see either of these two people naked. It seems to me what's really going on is just that H/S was a relationship that was important in OotP--Harry spent more time with Snape, alone; he was a more convenient focus of Harry's anger because he was tied to the MWPP era and the Marauders and Dumbledore, which is where Harry's anger was more coming from here. So sure, good stuff to work with for slash, but still no evidence by my definition to indicate Harry's more likely to sleep with Snape than any girl at Hogwarts. In fact, I found Draco the more sensual of the two in OotP, dancing around, singing, juggling, tripping, joking and above all laughing. He didn't match Harry's mood as well as Snape did, which is maybe why they seemed more at odds.
Just to get back to the thing I found interesting...it just doesn't seem like people have done much with Lucius' imprisonment. I feel like this is probably because the text hasn't done anything with it. Lucius went to jail at the end of the story, and we just didn't see much of Draco's reaction to it. We saw what Harry saw, and Harry saw what he wanted for himself and left the rest: he didn't care beyond the detached satisfaction of seeing Malfoy look so angry. Malfoy probably feels towards Harry the way Harry currently feels towards Snape--or really, he feels completely differently because he's his own person. Now, I'm hoping (with fading hope) that the slugifying scene is not supposed to be the wrap up of that particular thing, that Draco will not come bopping onto the train next year saying his Dad's been home since early July or just still fluttering around like a bug in a jar about it, unable to have any real affect on anything unless it's needed for plot purposes and dispatched with as much follow-through as you'd get if Malfoy had just come to hook up Harry's cable box and left. But even if nothing is done with Lucius' imprisonment it seems interesting that this huge thing that one half of a slash pairing has done to another isn't considered as good a fodder as Occulamency lessons.
It makes me wonder if the problem or solution is that slash only plays things out that are already in the text, albeit through sex. So it's not that OotP suddenly gave Snarry shippers stuff to build from, it's that it gave scenes to replay over and over through slash, while H/D had a book where half the ship was absent from the other. Harry was distracted, not following through. This in itself doesn't mean there can't be any good slash stories written about them. On the contrary, if you're looking at it from Malfoy's pov there's plenty of great stuff to write--like Cassie started to do with "Cigarettes Can Kill You," for instance. It just starts to make me wonder if fic writers often really do rely on the text more than they seem to do, so it's harder to write Draco's reaction to these things if we don't see it in canon the way we see Snape's reaction. Fanon!Draco can't help, of course, because he's a pale shadow himself. He doesn't even like his father.
Finally, one thing that made me laugh thinking of the canon evidence I don't see for these ships was that if you look at this triangle the one pairing OotP did provide evidence of (of the R/S variety, which is suspect but still a form of evidence) is S/D. I mean, here you have a scene where Snape and Harry are forced together against both their wishes and Draco barges in unannounced, looks surprised, and is perfectly polite to Snape, who calls him "Draco." This indicates Draco not only is allowed to walk into Snape's office unannounced, but knows enough of what he expects to see there to be surprised at Harry, that he shows a different side of himself--a pleasanter side--with Snape, and that Snape has enough personal regard for him to call him by his first name. Now, I don't think this means the two of them are having an affair, but it does, to me, seem like a scene that intentionally shows us these two have a personal relationship outside of class and after hours. Yet it still seems a commonly held belief in fandom Snape's only pretending to like Draco in order to suck up, despite there being no indication of this in canon. It could certainly be true, of course, but the only signs we get tell us the opposite.
So that again strikes me as odd-OotP, which stressed how Harry and Snape get on each other's nerves, offers evidence for a possible affair, while a scene that hints at more personal involvement between Snape and Draco still doesn't seem to change the widely held notion that these two really don't like each other. Makes it seem like a lot of evidence isn't that at all...that is, that slash isn't about what's there in terms of how the characters feel about each other, but what's there in terms of playing out the same scenes we see in canon. I think the Marauders are affected by this too-not matter how many times we're told James and Sirius were the two best friends, even in MWPP era fics Sirius/Remus will probably be the most intense relationship. Not just because James got married and they didn't, imo, but because there are no really good James/Sirius scenes to replay. So with S/D too, we see scenes between Harry and Snape just as Harry does. Since he's never witnessed a personal scene between Snape and Draco it doesn't exist and any hints of it must be explained away.
Okay, when I say I see evidence for a ship in canon, I'm referring to something pretty blatant. I mean I see things in canon that I believe the author is putting there to show me that one character is attracted to another, and would like to go out with them. Actually, I'd take it a step further and say one character has this feeling and it's not a crazy thing to wish for for that character. So, for instance, I see canon evidence of Arthur/Molly, because they are married and have children. I also see canon evidence of R/Hr, because I think Ron's doing things like buying perfume and being jealous of Viktor Krum is there to indicate that the idea of someone else with Hermione makes him a little jealous and that he has started, in his fumbly way, to want to treat her as a girl. I also saw it in Hermione's frustration at him in GoF. I saw canon evidence of Harry/Cho when Harry got flustered over how pretty she was and wanted to ask her to the dance, and when Cho started flirting back. Obviously these things can be one-sided, and someone having interest doesn't mean the two will end up together.
I would even consider it canon evidence when people say Remus and Sirius' joint Xmas present proves they are a couple, because gay couples, like married ones, tend to give one gift for both. I don't think the joint present means anything of the sort, but I would say that a person saying it is using it as evidence.
But it seems like often when people say "canon evidence" they mean more what I would think of as just...slash fodder. Like, I ship H/D, but I see no evidence that either boy is consciously attracted to the other in canon. Yes, I could say that Draco's obsession with Harry could be because he's attracted to him, but I've never seen anything that I thought was really telling me that's what's happening. For me OotP did not provide any more or less evidence for canon H/D, because their relationship stayed pretty much the same. Faced with competition from Umbridge and Snape, two adults with actual power, Draco's own ability to annoy paled considerably, but he continued to do what he always did. Harry was aware of him when he was in the room, he irritated Harry, he made him angry, he provided an easy behavior guide for Harry (if Malfoy would do it, Harry wouldn't), he dropped hints of doom to befall Harry's loved ones Harry couldn't stop. If OotP was from Draco's pov it may have been the slashiest book yet, imo. Interestingly, it seems like the biggest thing to happen to the H/D relationship in canon hasn't been all that dealt with in fanfic. Maybe I'm just missing the stuff because I haven't been reading much fic lately, but aside from a few very nice pieces, it doesn't seem like a lot of H/D writers have jumped on Harry's having taken Draco's father away and begun writing epics over it. That seems kind interesting in a way maybe I'll come back to.
OotP did, apparently, provide a lot more evidence for H/S. Now, I see that it provided a lot more fodder for slash but again I don't see a big change in the H/S relationship. Yes, Harry sees Snape differently after the Pensieve--that can't be denied. But not, imo, in a way that suggests he finds him any more attractive than he did before. More importantly, the Pensieve scene, as unique as it was, still followed the same pattern of all H/S interaction since book 1. Snape has always been the one to destroy Harry's view of a perfect father, Harry's seen Snape humiliated by MWPP before, they've always gotten on each other's nerves in a way that was disturbing to them because of its intimacy, Snape's tried to humiliate Harry, Harry's always humiliated Snape almost by accident. Snape's always been Harry's greatest protector, despite Snape and Harry's own disgust with that fact.
I think both these relationships (H/D and H/S) have stuff for slashers to work with, and both probably translate really nicely to smut. That is, I think both of them deal with issues that can be played out through sex, which to me has always seemed the basis of a lot of slash ships. So I guess it surprised me after OotP to hear one ship declared dead and the other the new thing. I mean, for obvious reasons I could see why people said that--Snape had a bigger part, one that made him briefly a sympathetic teenager, there was mind melding and loss of control. And Draco got none of the heavy attention-in fact a lot of his role was split between Snape (who became more taunting and more angry at Harry and provided more of a target for Harry's own anger-all things Draco used to do) and Harry himself (who became more taunting and more angry himself). But it really wouldn't occur to me to take this to mean that there was now more evidence for H/S simply because there's still nothing in either of these relationships that suddenly hint that Harry wants to see either of these two people naked. It seems to me what's really going on is just that H/S was a relationship that was important in OotP--Harry spent more time with Snape, alone; he was a more convenient focus of Harry's anger because he was tied to the MWPP era and the Marauders and Dumbledore, which is where Harry's anger was more coming from here. So sure, good stuff to work with for slash, but still no evidence by my definition to indicate Harry's more likely to sleep with Snape than any girl at Hogwarts. In fact, I found Draco the more sensual of the two in OotP, dancing around, singing, juggling, tripping, joking and above all laughing. He didn't match Harry's mood as well as Snape did, which is maybe why they seemed more at odds.
Just to get back to the thing I found interesting...it just doesn't seem like people have done much with Lucius' imprisonment. I feel like this is probably because the text hasn't done anything with it. Lucius went to jail at the end of the story, and we just didn't see much of Draco's reaction to it. We saw what Harry saw, and Harry saw what he wanted for himself and left the rest: he didn't care beyond the detached satisfaction of seeing Malfoy look so angry. Malfoy probably feels towards Harry the way Harry currently feels towards Snape--or really, he feels completely differently because he's his own person. Now, I'm hoping (with fading hope) that the slugifying scene is not supposed to be the wrap up of that particular thing, that Draco will not come bopping onto the train next year saying his Dad's been home since early July or just still fluttering around like a bug in a jar about it, unable to have any real affect on anything unless it's needed for plot purposes and dispatched with as much follow-through as you'd get if Malfoy had just come to hook up Harry's cable box and left. But even if nothing is done with Lucius' imprisonment it seems interesting that this huge thing that one half of a slash pairing has done to another isn't considered as good a fodder as Occulamency lessons.
It makes me wonder if the problem or solution is that slash only plays things out that are already in the text, albeit through sex. So it's not that OotP suddenly gave Snarry shippers stuff to build from, it's that it gave scenes to replay over and over through slash, while H/D had a book where half the ship was absent from the other. Harry was distracted, not following through. This in itself doesn't mean there can't be any good slash stories written about them. On the contrary, if you're looking at it from Malfoy's pov there's plenty of great stuff to write--like Cassie started to do with "Cigarettes Can Kill You," for instance. It just starts to make me wonder if fic writers often really do rely on the text more than they seem to do, so it's harder to write Draco's reaction to these things if we don't see it in canon the way we see Snape's reaction. Fanon!Draco can't help, of course, because he's a pale shadow himself. He doesn't even like his father.
Finally, one thing that made me laugh thinking of the canon evidence I don't see for these ships was that if you look at this triangle the one pairing OotP did provide evidence of (of the R/S variety, which is suspect but still a form of evidence) is S/D. I mean, here you have a scene where Snape and Harry are forced together against both their wishes and Draco barges in unannounced, looks surprised, and is perfectly polite to Snape, who calls him "Draco." This indicates Draco not only is allowed to walk into Snape's office unannounced, but knows enough of what he expects to see there to be surprised at Harry, that he shows a different side of himself--a pleasanter side--with Snape, and that Snape has enough personal regard for him to call him by his first name. Now, I don't think this means the two of them are having an affair, but it does, to me, seem like a scene that intentionally shows us these two have a personal relationship outside of class and after hours. Yet it still seems a commonly held belief in fandom Snape's only pretending to like Draco in order to suck up, despite there being no indication of this in canon. It could certainly be true, of course, but the only signs we get tell us the opposite.
So that again strikes me as odd-OotP, which stressed how Harry and Snape get on each other's nerves, offers evidence for a possible affair, while a scene that hints at more personal involvement between Snape and Draco still doesn't seem to change the widely held notion that these two really don't like each other. Makes it seem like a lot of evidence isn't that at all...that is, that slash isn't about what's there in terms of how the characters feel about each other, but what's there in terms of playing out the same scenes we see in canon. I think the Marauders are affected by this too-not matter how many times we're told James and Sirius were the two best friends, even in MWPP era fics Sirius/Remus will probably be the most intense relationship. Not just because James got married and they didn't, imo, but because there are no really good James/Sirius scenes to replay. So with S/D too, we see scenes between Harry and Snape just as Harry does. Since he's never witnessed a personal scene between Snape and Draco it doesn't exist and any hints of it must be explained away.
some blather
It's almost like one's ship is also one's peer group. Which is good in one way because it fully delves into whatever slash pairing is hot... and bad because it ignores whatever isn't in vogue. And that works within the pairings too. H/S attracts, by and large, a certain kind of fic, and a certain kind of trope. Same with S/D. I'd venture to guess those bits of canon evidence are treated differently because of how they compare with what attracted those shippers in the first place.
Personally, I'm quite tongue-in-cheek about slashpoints. Of course I know it wouldn't hold up in an English class. In the case of HPOP I really feel JKR was more aware of removing fanon fodder (I mean, she can't possibly ignore all of us) -- a lot of the strongest 'evidence' are emotional connections and well, our main POV wasn't interested in connecting with much of anyone still living.
But as you said, it doesn't mean fanficcers should also eliminate their own preferences according to JKR's tone. I hold on to a lot of pairings which are so unpopular that I don't think anyone else ships them; I write what I want to read. In a limited POV canon like HP, that should increase options, not stifle them.
Re: some blather
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*raises hand* I DID, I DID!!1 *cries* of course, it's not finished.... but. I did! That was the impetus! That's the drive! that's the point! WAH!! Everything I'd written since OoTP had that circling at the back of my mind, man. I'm virtually -obsessed- with that fact, eheheh. That and the fact that Harry beat him up defining Harry in my H/D, the fact that Potter took his father away now defines Draco as much as Potter refusing his hand does. I was never that obsessed with the hand thing anyway. Meh. I think people don't write canonically-focused H/D now the way they did after GoF, mostly.
I mean, after GoF (when I came into fandom, the post-GoF fics were going strong), everyone and their sister were writing about Malfoy's threat on the train (and really, that has nowhere near as many dramatic possibilities as the stuff in OoTP) and working in how Malfoy's worried & how blah-blah-whatever. I think it's because the train thing & him warning about Hermione in the forest & the hand-taking thing & the robeshop meeting & in OoTP, initially, the glass-dropping thing (though no one's worked that into a fic, it's of the same 'type' of slashy thing)-- I think what they all have in common is that they're more evidence for a more emotionally vulnerable, redeemable Draco.
On the other hand, the fight & the father-issue are more evidence for a darker, more bitter and passionate (AND OMG SEXY OMG) Draco, which isn't fanon!Draco. Basically, fanon!Draco doesn't work so well with being beaten up & hating Potter -more- (not -less-, which is what everyone seems to want, argh) for taking his father away. I -love- the greater hatred & violence (more, more!!) but like... most shippers don't. Heh.
I found Draco the more sensual of the two in OotP, dancing around, singing, juggling, tripping, joking and above all laughing.
That just made me shiver happily. I love fool-jester!Draco. Wah.
The fact that fanon!Draco doesn't like his father makes me laugh and laugh and laugh and I think it (besides the whole rational-and-coolly attractive thing) is what really turns me off from those fics. It just seems like some sort of great big joke or something. Like... if Draco isn't All About Lucius, what is he about???! Ahahah. Even fanon!Draco goes on about 'what it means to be a Malfoy', so how could one forget that Malfoys=Lucius to Draco?? Ha.
And I've been meaning to ask you exactly what H/D fics you'd read/would rec recently, but I guess I have my answer in that you don't read much :> :>
Also-- yes, yes. I think even -I- don't really care about James/Sirius while I admit it's more "there" because there isn't any interactions between them in canon. I mean, what do I care what I'm -told-? So what? I mean, okay, it's a fact, but it's not inspiring. I mean, Sirius clearly seems still obsessed with James after he's dead in the way he is around Harry, but it's not really romantic so much as sad, and... it's still hard to really picture them together, since we have so little to go on with James and how that dynamic would be. Y'know? Even after that one pensieve scene. Yah, people definitely slash actual -characters- instead of ideas given from statements about characters :>
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H/S is one of my favorite ships, but I never consider it a "canon ship" nor I care if it is or isn't, I don't see how H/S is suddenly more or less plausible after Ootp, since I've always been into this Ship way before Ootp anyways. However, OotP confirms my interpretation that the dynamic between Harry and Snape is one of most important relationships of canon and their relationships will play a vital key role in the final outcome of the story (and of course when I say "relationship" I don't mean "romantic relationship"). I've always believe this prior OotP based on all the foreshadowings and development between them in the first 4 books, so all the H/S interactions in Ootp merely confirms my interpretations. So I do believe what will happen between Harry and Snape matters to the story much more than what'll happen between Harry and Draco. But by this I don't mean H/S is more "canon" or has more "evidence" than H/D (one of my favorites too btw) nor I think Draco doesn't matter, though I do think the fandom do overemphasize his importance.
And I want to stress is that, H/S isn't some "new" thing for many of us who had read/write/explore the dynamic this pairing way way before the release of OotP. Some people might suddenly "see" it, good for them, but it doesn't mean H/S is some brand new thing that start in OotP. It's a big fandom exist before the book and classic fics were written way before the release of OotP. What happen in OotP, namely the Occlumency and Penseive stuffs, are something a lot of S/H fans had been playing around with for years. It's actually a "reverse" thing for us in a way, so it's not like there are suddenly new fodders for people to work on, it's more like our fandom cliches actually took place in canon. It was actually funny to see so many popular cliches of H/S fics appear in canon.
Some people find the H/S dynamic in OotP more appealing and attractive than others (ex: H/D) because, beside the fact it's much more intense and Important, a lot of people find the whole Occlumency thing feels sexual, both the nature of it and what happen with it. Just look at the nature of occlumency, there's something very disturbingly intimate about the people involve in it. JKR even use sexually suggestive language and writing like "external penetration", "on all four", lots of panting and racing heart beat, also the what-does-she-means-by "trace his lip with one long thin finger" (it seems to be important that she had to mention it twice), these might not mean anything to you, but for many other people they come off as strong sexual subtexts. One can also interpret it psychoanalytically to see the whole thing as a metaphor. Snape instruct Harry to "clear his mind and emotion" before going to bed (good advice for many young teenage boys :P), It is interesting that they both explore (intentionally or not) and find sexual relate memories from each other, Snape finds Cho, Harry finds Snape mocked by a girl in a failing "broom" incident. Not to mention the whole Penseive scene, which could be see as a sexually traumatize experience for a young man. Of course, there are also many things happen between the two of them emotionally in those scenes that are also very intense and scream "ship" to some of us, the subtle hints of understanding and trust, memories and emotions sharing, the way the two of them dealt with what happen with the penseive incidence like a quarrelling couple, and of course the way Snape is Harry only hope in Umbridge office and how he tried to communicate with him with eye contacts..etc etc, these are all powerful stuffs and wonderful developments between two characters that can be easily read in "ship" ways, not to mention many of these are H/S fanfic cliches that were written before OotP anyways.
(For me, beside the Occlumency and penseives scenes in OotP, the other scenes I feel sexual tones (symbolic-wise, language-wise, theme-wise) in canon in relationship to Harry are the chamber scene in CoS and the graveyard scene in GoF.)
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This happens to be one of my least favorite fanon assertions. It's usually put forward by Snape fans who want to make him look nicer, but IMO it makes him far less pleasant than if he actually likes Draco, no matter how much of a prat Draco is.
It makes me wonder if the problem or solution is that slash only plays things out that are already in the text, albeit through sex. So it's not that OotP suddenly gave Snarry shippers stuff to build from, it's that it gave scenes to replay over and over through slash, while H/D had a book where half the ship was absent from the other.
Either I don't really understand what you mean here, or I don't really see this. I read a lot of H/S, but I don't really see any of it as recreating the scenes (except in the sense of Harry and Snape needing to resume Occlumency lessons, but I don't think that's what you mean). Most of what I see tends to involve the characters growing, often moving away from what we see of them in these scenes to develop mutual respect and attraction -- you know, things that might actually be *useful* for a relationship. ;-)
In terms of canon evidence for a ship, I think that there are two different types of evidence, or alternately, two different ways of looking at ships. The one that you state near the top of your post, as for Arthur/Molly or Harry/Cho, is evidence that these characters are in a romantic relationship or have romantic feelings for each other. Similarly, I'd agree that Ron/Hermione falls into this category (which I'll call 'A'), as did Harry/Ginny in CoS -- I'd say there was no question that was a canon ship, even if it was completely one-sided. The other type, B, seems to look more for evidence of the ship's viability, or the future possibility of the ship. It tends to deal less with how the characters look at each other now and more with how well-matched they are. I'd say that most Harry/Hermione evidence tends to fall in this category, for instance. The two don't seem all that interested in each other, but as H/H shippers point out (sometimes very effectively), these two have a good basis for future romance, perhaps much more so than either R/H or H/G.
So bringing this to the slash ships you mentioned, I think all three have evidence that goes into one or both of these categories. For H/S, there doesn't seem to be much of any type A evidence that I can see, but there's a whole ton of type B evidence. Most of this is through the Occlumency scenes; the two get a deeper understanding of each other and develop some sympathy. By the end of the book, they hate each other more than ever, but the new knowledge they have of each other may allow them to appreciate the other, once they get over their more immediate hurts. (You could also add in something about how Harry's overlooking Snape in trying to rescue Sirius means that he won't forget him in the future, but I'd call that stretching it.) For H/D, I think you could call Draco's apparent obsession with Harry type A evidence, albeit one-sided, even if Draco isn't consciously attracted to Harry. The fact that Draco sees Harry as responsible for getting his father thrown in jail could potentially be type B evidence, as a new sort of connection between the two. Each has recently lost a father (figure) dear to him to the war, due to the actions of the other's side. How exactly this will/could lead to the pairing is open to a wide variety of fic possibilities. I think the S/D evidence you cited could go either way, but would more likely be type B. They get along and probably share mutual respect. Anyway, that's my analysis; feel free to disagree.
Of course, there's also the point that you can find "evidence" for nearly any opinion you want, but that's a whole other topic.
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(Anonymous) 2004-07-06 08:01 pm (UTC)(link)I find your views on what constitute actual canon evidence very sensible. Strict rules from which strong evidence follows. To separate what is evidence of romantic interest or involvement from general interest or attention should be doable even for a very enthusiastic slasher. For the het ships (I suppose most people consider het default for the books?) this can be simple. Evidence? Fine, it’s floating. No evidence, still shippable but clearly in need of other, weaker kinds of textual backup.
I don’t know what definition you use for slash, though, and I don’t know how to pin it down, but say that a slash ship is a m/m or f/f ship of seemingly straight (or at least not openly gay) characters that a reader for one reason or other wants to see together. Then I suppose finding canon evidence in the very strict sense you presented above would make the ship... eh, non-slashy? canon? gay? or something else at least, that is if slash is somehow always subtexty.
So, while I think you may use the strict criteria for what is canon evidence with great success for finding the ships JKR actually sails, and predicting possibly important pairings in the last two books, they are perhaps not as useful as a measure of how realistically one may slash two characters and and stay close to canon. You might show that a character would be more canonically shipped with somebody else though. Given the real canon evidence for R/Hr, eg, R/D is canonically more unlikely than say Z/D.
When it comes to slash, and slashability, I’m not sure if canon evidence matter at all. I ship H/D, but can’t say I have ever bothered with looking for evidence, mostly because they are clearly not canon and I never expect them to be. To me, the slash potential is in the energy and the personalities of the characters, and what happens in the books are a different matter altogether, separate from their potential. But then I don’t write fics, so making the pairing plausible is not something I need to worry about.
Some fics seems to be written more as exercises of the possible more than the probable, and talking about evidence in the oh-my-god-somebody-wrote-that? pairs is not necessary or even very interesting, but if the ship is being presented as probable I guess the question of canon compability is more important.
I don’t think slash fanfiction must by nature be text dependant. I have no idea if this could work, but how about if you separate slash fanfiction in two basic approaches as in scenically- (the how can I slash them?) and character-driven (the why should I slash them?) fanfiction?
Replaying an existing scene seems a simple way of giving instant credibility to the relationship no matter what their canon characters are, “look, here it is, they really did do this and this is what it actually meant”. Textual precedence of how two characters interact and talk to each other would be the most valuable asset of this approach, perhaps.
I imagine that while writing about two characters that never or rarely canonically interact while the readers watch would give the writer more freedom to make her own dynamic, but that this would be more difficult to write convincingly. I can’t help but feel, though, that successfully written a character-based fic (either with a high profile of rare pair) would ring more true and seem more emotionally probable than a slashy reading of an existing scene, and not only because the reader already knows the “true” canon version of that scene. It’s a bit like in murder mysteries, unless Mr X has a motive for the murder, why would the reader want to know his alibi?
Could it be that what you call slash fodder, is the kind of evidence or situations that lends itself well to fics that wants to tell of the *how* and that since they don’t necessarily tell anything about or even care about *why*, the writers of *how* might seem especially careless or unconcerned with character evidence or consistency? Slashing for the sake of slashing?
- Clara
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(Anonymous) - 2004-07-07 10:48 (UTC) - Expandno subject
Re: James/Sirius: I think there's considerable canon potential here. I mean, Sirius *moved in* with the Potters...Granted, it would have been better if they'd gotten their own place together, but still - I think a lot could be done with that OotP-revealed fact, and I haven't seen it really.
Not that I've particularly looked. :)
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Suffice to say, as someone who ships only slash and unconventional Het ships, I never deluded myself that there is 'canon evidence' in my pairings. Like you said, the only 'evidence' there is in the books is for the more 'obvious' pairings, and quite frankly, I am not interested in that.
But...half the fun in shipping and writing/reading fic is the exploration of the subtext. I do think there is some subtext for pairings like H/D and H/S, in the way there isn't for completely random pairings like Arthur/McNair or something (though knowing this fandom, someone's probably written the latter).
That is, I think both of them deal with issues that can be played out through sex, which to me has always seemed the basis of a lot of slash ships.
You know, I think that line has managed to explain my love for certain pairings better than all my posts together have.
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Of course there's subtext for ships: it's the subtext the reader bring in when their romantic ideals react to the text of the characters. But when you use subtext for "stuff put there by the author to be intentially ambiguous" (the "canon! canon!" claims) Harry hating Snape because Snape's a convenient scapegoat for Siriu's guilt isn't enough. Also, why gloss over Harry's need to cope with his internalised guilt this way?
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(Anonymous) - 2004-07-07 09:14 (UTC) - Expand(no subject)
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A prime example for me is Ginny. I prefer to femslash her, and not because she's any other girl's canon soulmate. She isn't. I don't really believe in either of the two most common Ginny ships. Ginny/Hermione is cool, but in my heart of hearts I think that R/Hr is canon and that Hermione is attatched. I shipped Ginny/Cho over the three year summer, but then OotP!Cho wasn't someone that I connected with anymore. I don't really ship Gin with anyone. But I like who she is so much better when she's in a femslash environment. She just does incredibly interesting things, character-wise.
I do love using canon details, just for fun, as a shoutout of sorts. But fic, for me, is a way of exploring characters by observing and examining their reactions to character dynamics apart from the ones that we see in canon.
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http://img37.photobucket.com/albums/v114/indicaps/Harry%20Potter%20and%20the%20Prisoner%20of%20Azkaban/?action=view¤t=HP3TC_CD1-232.jpg&sort=descending
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The thing is, there are so many OTPers who see canon with "ship blinders". The "joint presents" Remus/Sirius crowd ignores the (to me) incredibly slashy PoA Remus/Snape tension in the scenes where Snape gives the Wolfsbane to Remus. The "all fours in Snape's office" Snape/Harry OTPers go la la la at Harry's angry claim that Snape essentially killed Sirius. Snape/Lucius shippers point at the "lapdog" comment. And so on.
Sometimes I worry that my mind is so open my brains will fall out. But I love to be convinced by a clever, perceptive writer that some odd relationship is plausible and even inevitable.
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First of all there is an obvious difference between "conclusive evidence" and "evidence." So while I consider the evidence for Molly/Arthur to be pretty conclusive, the evidence for Ron/Luna is not. Yes, I see how the laughter and comment about the Yule Ballcan be taken as indication of Luna's romantic interest in Ron and Rowling foreshadowing a romantic relationship between those two, but there is a whole continent of difference between these speculations and speculating that Arthur and Molly dated, married, had sex, had children, because they love each other.
As for canon... now this is wanky topic. We have no clear definition of canon, some people say it's text, some say it's authorial intent and yet both definitions can supply "canon evidence" for absolutely anything. Isn't that fun?
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Of course, Snape could like Draco AND be forced to favor him. Just because Lucius is watching doesn't exclude the possibility of him genuinely liking the little brat. So I'm not entirely sure aas to where that leaves me on the issue. I spose that I'm rather straddling the fence on this one.
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There isn't much to say that hasn't already been said, but I just can't help asking... why are a lot of HP fans so obsessed with ships in the first place? Can one enjoy a certain pairing only if there's canon evidence for it? If not, where's the reason for stretching the definition of canon to the breaking point just to prove a pairing has even the slightest hint of canon?
I'm only a reader, not a writer, so maybe I'm missing something here. I agree it's fun to look for evidence of a favorite pairing in canon, but how does that relate to fanfiction?
For example, my personal favorite is Sirius/Remus, which accidentally can be argued to be somewhat canon, so any hinting at it in the books is like a little treat. Then again, I also very much enjoy Snape/Harry, which in my opinion has very little basis in canon. Is a S/R story "worthier" than a S/H one? Seems unreasonable, yet people continually get very involved in arguments like "why R/Hr is more canon than H/Hr" etc., as if giving canon evidence would make a certain groups of fics more "real"... and therefore better? So does the quality of a piece of fanfiction depend on the pairing? Even the most devoted R/Hr shipper would probably agree that that's not the case.
Which brings me back to the question... why the desperate hunt for canon evidence for pairings that probably are not meant to be? (in the books that is) Or using hints of one's own OTP to disprove another, when neither hasn't been proved by canon in the first place? Everyone reads the same books, but every word can be interpreted in so many ways it's just pointless to quote a line and then say "this is canon and therefore I'm right and your pairing is dead". That really has nothing to do with canon and everything to do with someone being too narrow-minded to consider anything but their own interpretation of the books.
Sorry for the rant, but like someone said before, HP fandom is pretty... intense about this whole shipping issue, which can be quite mind-boggling for someone not being used to that kind of thing (hobbitslash is so peaceful compared to this) ^_^;
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(Anonymous) 2004-07-08 11:57 pm (UTC)(link)To me, any slash pairing doesn't really have cannon evidence. Not in this fandom anyway... I guess what compels me to read/write slash has more to do with the dynamic of two characters together, and not just speculation over random bits of "slashy" material in cannon and when the relationship has an element of having some unresolved issues bubbling beneath the surface, or some lack of insight of why characters act one way or another towards each other. That's why i'm a sucker for H/D instead of H/R for instance, because H/R has a very defined cannon relationship that, to me, doesn't seem to have that quality of something "unknown", while H/D seems to have it all over the place, and as a reader, makes the possibility of slash more believalbe... Did that make sense?
I have to agree that i can't understand why H/D shippers didn't jump all over the fact that Lucius is in jail and Draco thinks Harry put him there. To me that's a GOLDMINE for all sorts of fics, slashy or otherwise. Harry had his father figure taken away and his real father has been gone all his life. Which brings me to another point: Harry seemed to get a morbid satisfaction from seeing Draco upset about losing his father, which could be seen as Harry being glad that Draco is finally going through the same thing as Harry had to go through, and Draco finally losing he had that Harry didn't but always wanted to have, a Father ... Anyway, there's so many places this could go, but no one seems to want to adress it, and sadly, i don't think JKR is really going to play off of it in cannon.. but who knows.
Oh, and one fic I personally think is doing a good job adressing Draco's reaction to the end of OotP and his relationship with his father (without turning Draco into SmoothFanonIHateMyFather!Draco) is Eclipse by Mijan. I read the first 8 chapters in one (well maybe 2) sittings, so my memory of it might be a bit hazy, but i thought that it was well written and I could buy Draco's growth/change as a character.
~Katia
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Completely unrelated to your post, but..
http://www.livejournal.com/users/lonicera/3293.html?view=9181
Re: Completely unrelated to your post, but..