Canon evidence

[sistermagpie]

This came up recently and it got me to thinking. It has to do with finding "canon evidence" for a ship. It occurred to me I wasn't sure everybody was on the same page when it comes to what "canon evidence" is, and even what a ship is, really.

Okay, when I say I see evidence for a ship in canon, I'm referring to something pretty blatant. I mean I see things in canon that I believe the author is putting there to show me that one character is attracted to another, and would like to go out with them. Actually, I'd take it a step further and say one character has this feeling and it's not a crazy thing to wish for for that character. So, for instance, I see canon evidence of Arthur/Molly, because they are married and have children. I also see canon evidence of R/Hr, because I think Ron's doing things like buying perfume and being jealous of Viktor Krum is there to indicate that the idea of someone else with Hermione makes him a little jealous and that he has started, in his fumbly way, to want to treat her as a girl. I also saw it in Hermione's frustration at him in GoF. I saw canon evidence of Harry/Cho when Harry got flustered over how pretty she was and wanted to ask her to the dance, and when Cho started flirting back. Obviously these things can be one-sided, and someone having interest doesn't mean the two will end up together.

I would even consider it canon evidence when people say Remus and Sirius' joint Xmas present proves they are a couple, because gay couples, like married ones, tend to give one gift for both. I don't think the joint present means anything of the sort, but I would say that a person saying it is using it as evidence.

But it seems like often when people say "canon evidence" they mean more what I would think of as just...slash fodder. Like, I ship H/D, but I see no evidence that either boy is consciously attracted to the other in canon. Yes, I could say that Draco's obsession with Harry could be because he's attracted to him, but I've never seen anything that I thought was really telling me that's what's happening. For me OotP did not provide any more or less evidence for canon H/D, because their relationship stayed pretty much the same. Faced with competition from Umbridge and Snape, two adults with actual power, Draco's own ability to annoy paled considerably, but he continued to do what he always did. Harry was aware of him when he was in the room, he irritated Harry, he made him angry, he provided an easy behavior guide for Harry (if Malfoy would do it, Harry wouldn't), he dropped hints of doom to befall Harry's loved ones Harry couldn't stop. If OotP was from Draco's pov it may have been the slashiest book yet, imo. Interestingly, it seems like the biggest thing to happen to the H/D relationship in canon hasn't been all that dealt with in fanfic. Maybe I'm just missing the stuff because I haven't been reading much fic lately, but aside from a few very nice pieces, it doesn't seem like a lot of H/D writers have jumped on Harry's having taken Draco's father away and begun writing epics over it. That seems kind interesting in a way maybe I'll come back to.

OotP did, apparently, provide a lot more evidence for H/S. Now, I see that it provided a lot more fodder for slash but again I don't see a big change in the H/S relationship. Yes, Harry sees Snape differently after the Pensieve--that can't be denied. But not, imo, in a way that suggests he finds him any more attractive than he did before. More importantly, the Pensieve scene, as unique as it was, still followed the same pattern of all H/S interaction since book 1. Snape has always been the one to destroy Harry's view of a perfect father, Harry's seen Snape humiliated by MWPP before, they've always gotten on each other's nerves in a way that was disturbing to them because of its intimacy, Snape's tried to humiliate Harry, Harry's always humiliated Snape almost by accident. Snape's always been Harry's greatest protector, despite Snape and Harry's own disgust with that fact.

I think both these relationships (H/D and H/S) have stuff for slashers to work with, and both probably translate really nicely to smut. That is, I think both of them deal with issues that can be played out through sex, which to me has always seemed the basis of a lot of slash ships. So I guess it surprised me after OotP to hear one ship declared dead and the other the new thing. I mean, for obvious reasons I could see why people said that--Snape had a bigger part, one that made him briefly a sympathetic teenager, there was mind melding and loss of control. And Draco got none of the heavy attention-in fact a lot of his role was split between Snape (who became more taunting and more angry at Harry and provided more of a target for Harry's own anger-all things Draco used to do) and Harry himself (who became more taunting and more angry himself). But it really wouldn't occur to me to take this to mean that there was now more evidence for H/S simply because there's still nothing in either of these relationships that suddenly hint that Harry wants to see either of these two people naked. It seems to me what's really going on is just that H/S was a relationship that was important in OotP--Harry spent more time with Snape, alone; he was a more convenient focus of Harry's anger because he was tied to the MWPP era and the Marauders and Dumbledore, which is where Harry's anger was more coming from here. So sure, good stuff to work with for slash, but still no evidence by my definition to indicate Harry's more likely to sleep with Snape than any girl at Hogwarts. In fact, I found Draco the more sensual of the two in OotP, dancing around, singing, juggling, tripping, joking and above all laughing. He didn't match Harry's mood as well as Snape did, which is maybe why they seemed more at odds.

Just to get back to the thing I found interesting...it just doesn't seem like people have done much with Lucius' imprisonment. I feel like this is probably because the text hasn't done anything with it. Lucius went to jail at the end of the story, and we just didn't see much of Draco's reaction to it. We saw what Harry saw, and Harry saw what he wanted for himself and left the rest: he didn't care beyond the detached satisfaction of seeing Malfoy look so angry. Malfoy probably feels towards Harry the way Harry currently feels towards Snape--or really, he feels completely differently because he's his own person. Now, I'm hoping (with fading hope) that the slugifying scene is not supposed to be the wrap up of that particular thing, that Draco will not come bopping onto the train next year saying his Dad's been home since early July or just still fluttering around like a bug in a jar about it, unable to have any real affect on anything unless it's needed for plot purposes and dispatched with as much follow-through as you'd get if Malfoy had just come to hook up Harry's cable box and left. But even if nothing is done with Lucius' imprisonment it seems interesting that this huge thing that one half of a slash pairing has done to another isn't considered as good a fodder as Occulamency lessons.

It makes me wonder if the problem or solution is that slash only plays things out that are already in the text, albeit through sex. So it's not that OotP suddenly gave Snarry shippers stuff to build from, it's that it gave scenes to replay over and over through slash, while H/D had a book where half the ship was absent from the other. Harry was distracted, not following through. This in itself doesn't mean there can't be any good slash stories written about them. On the contrary, if you're looking at it from Malfoy's pov there's plenty of great stuff to write--like Cassie started to do with "Cigarettes Can Kill You," for instance. It just starts to make me wonder if fic writers often really do rely on the text more than they seem to do, so it's harder to write Draco's reaction to these things if we don't see it in canon the way we see Snape's reaction. Fanon!Draco can't help, of course, because he's a pale shadow himself. He doesn't even like his father.

Finally, one thing that made me laugh thinking of the canon evidence I don't see for these ships was that if you look at this triangle the one pairing OotP did provide evidence of (of the R/S variety, which is suspect but still a form of evidence) is S/D. I mean, here you have a scene where Snape and Harry are forced together against both their wishes and Draco barges in unannounced, looks surprised, and is perfectly polite to Snape, who calls him "Draco." This indicates Draco not only is allowed to walk into Snape's office unannounced, but knows enough of what he expects to see there to be surprised at Harry, that he shows a different side of himself--a pleasanter side--with Snape, and that Snape has enough personal regard for him to call him by his first name. Now, I don't think this means the two of them are having an affair, but it does, to me, seem like a scene that intentionally shows us these two have a personal relationship outside of class and after hours. Yet it still seems a commonly held belief in fandom Snape's only pretending to like Draco in order to suck up, despite there being no indication of this in canon. It could certainly be true, of course, but the only signs we get tell us the opposite.

So that again strikes me as odd-OotP, which stressed how Harry and Snape get on each other's nerves, offers evidence for a possible affair, while a scene that hints at more personal involvement between Snape and Draco still doesn't seem to change the widely held notion that these two really don't like each other. Makes it seem like a lot of evidence isn't that at all...that is, that slash isn't about what's there in terms of how the characters feel about each other, but what's there in terms of playing out the same scenes we see in canon. I think the Marauders are affected by this too-not matter how many times we're told James and Sirius were the two best friends, even in MWPP era fics Sirius/Remus will probably be the most intense relationship. Not just because James got married and they didn't, imo, but because there are no really good James/Sirius scenes to replay. So with S/D too, we see scenes between Harry and Snape just as Harry does. Since he's never witnessed a personal scene between Snape and Draco it doesn't exist and any hints of it must be explained away.

Comments

some blather

[shusu.livejournal.com]

I will never understand fanon HP. Truly. I've been and done some bizarre fandoms, and even if it's completely off-the-wall, I can usually find some sort of emotional tweak which might get people to write what really isn't there. The only place I've really seen things like declaring ships passe or citing "more evidence" is the morass of Gundam Wing fandom at its peak; in that case the creators *deliberately* set up situations to cater to the yaoi crowds. So not the case with JKR.

It's almost like one's ship is also one's peer group. Which is good in one way because it fully delves into whatever slash pairing is hot... and bad because it ignores whatever isn't in vogue. And that works within the pairings too. H/S attracts, by and large, a certain kind of fic, and a certain kind of trope. Same with S/D. I'd venture to guess those bits of canon evidence are treated differently because of how they compare with what attracted those shippers in the first place.

Personally, I'm quite tongue-in-cheek about slashpoints. Of course I know it wouldn't hold up in an English class. In the case of HPOP I really feel JKR was more aware of removing fanon fodder (I mean, she can't possibly ignore all of us) -- a lot of the strongest 'evidence' are emotional connections and well, our main POV wasn't interested in connecting with much of anyone still living.

But as you said, it doesn't mean fanficcers should also eliminate their own preferences according to JKR's tone. I hold on to a lot of pairings which are so unpopular that I don't think anyone else ships them; I write what I want to read. In a limited POV canon like HP, that should increase options, not stifle them.

Re: some blather

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the thing is I can see so many great potential ships in HP and it's the warring that makes it so annoying. The books say pretty much nothing on the subject and they're certainly never going to say anything about slash. So why do people need to argue that their fic is the right one, especially when both ships are so not going to happen that neither one is right. It's like arguing whether chocolate is better than vanilla as if this sort of thing isn't subjective.

Of course you could, I suppose, argue why you think a relationship would work more than another would, but that still gets into how you see the ship and how you see relationships in general, and there's no way to prove it. And even the person who proves that their relationship is superior could be proven wrong, because people make dumb choices in their life.

I'd venture to guess those bits of canon evidence are treated differently because of how they compare with what attracted those shippers in the first place.

Yes! That's just what it seems like. And I can understand that, but still it's kind of funny to think that our pov in HP is so limited that pretty much all the characters have unknown lives outside of it. We should be able to see something of it--like in OotP I thought it was fairly obvious Ron was going to try out for Quidditch even when Harry was clueless, based on what we saw. I thought the new Ginny was far more ridiculous. But sombeody like Snape and even more Draco, because these are characters Harry doesn't hang out with and only notices when they're being shoved in his face (plus Snape is an adult) have a lot of life we don't know about. So it's interesting how much we want the rest of their lives to conform to the small bit we see with Harry.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

it doesn't seem like a lot of H/D writers have jumped on Harry's having taken Draco's father away and begun writing epics over it.
*raises hand* I DID, I DID!!1 *cries* of course, it's not finished.... but. I did! That was the impetus! That's the drive! that's the point! WAH!! Everything I'd written since OoTP had that circling at the back of my mind, man. I'm virtually -obsessed- with that fact, eheheh. That and the fact that Harry beat him up defining Harry in my H/D, the fact that Potter took his father away now defines Draco as much as Potter refusing his hand does. I was never that obsessed with the hand thing anyway. Meh. I think people don't write canonically-focused H/D now the way they did after GoF, mostly.

I mean, after GoF (when I came into fandom, the post-GoF fics were going strong), everyone and their sister were writing about Malfoy's threat on the train (and really, that has nowhere near as many dramatic possibilities as the stuff in OoTP) and working in how Malfoy's worried & how blah-blah-whatever. I think it's because the train thing & him warning about Hermione in the forest & the hand-taking thing & the robeshop meeting & in OoTP, initially, the glass-dropping thing (though no one's worked that into a fic, it's of the same 'type' of slashy thing)-- I think what they all have in common is that they're more evidence for a more emotionally vulnerable, redeemable Draco.

On the other hand, the fight & the father-issue are more evidence for a darker, more bitter and passionate (AND OMG SEXY OMG) Draco, which isn't fanon!Draco. Basically, fanon!Draco doesn't work so well with being beaten up & hating Potter -more- (not -less-, which is what everyone seems to want, argh) for taking his father away. I -love- the greater hatred & violence (more, more!!) but like... most shippers don't. Heh.

I found Draco the more sensual of the two in OotP, dancing around, singing, juggling, tripping, joking and above all laughing.
That just made me shiver happily. I love fool-jester!Draco. Wah.

The fact that fanon!Draco doesn't like his father makes me laugh and laugh and laugh and I think it (besides the whole rational-and-coolly attractive thing) is what really turns me off from those fics. It just seems like some sort of great big joke or something. Like... if Draco isn't All About Lucius, what is he about???! Ahahah. Even fanon!Draco goes on about 'what it means to be a Malfoy', so how could one forget that Malfoys=Lucius to Draco?? Ha.

And I've been meaning to ask you exactly what H/D fics you'd read/would rec recently, but I guess I have my answer in that you don't read much :> :>

Also-- yes, yes. I think even -I- don't really care about James/Sirius while I admit it's more "there" because there isn't any interactions between them in canon. I mean, what do I care what I'm -told-? So what? I mean, okay, it's a fact, but it's not inspiring. I mean, Sirius clearly seems still obsessed with James after he's dead in the way he is around Harry, but it's not really romantic so much as sad, and... it's still hard to really picture them together, since we have so little to go on with James and how that dynamic would be. Y'know? Even after that one pensieve scene. Yah, people definitely slash actual -characters- instead of ideas given from statements about characters :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--well, I did say there were some very nice pieces out there! I just thought it was interesting that, as you said, GoF seemed to leave Draco at a point where there was more to say. Though I guess that's not surprising given the fact he was given the exact same ending--except we didn't see whatever led up to it. I mean, the part of the train scene most people remember (Draco's words) happened offstage if at all. We didn't hear whatever he said to Harry, and he may have said nothing before he got zapped.

I think what they all have in common is that they're more evidence for a more emotionally vulnerable, redeemable Draco.


Very interesting! And I agree...though I wonder if it was the vulnerable so much as the times when he seemed cooler, like when he possibly could help in the woods or seemed "more menacing" because he was talking about Cedric. (Which again makes it so odd he returns the next year as Fool!Draco-not that I mind!) In OotP he was working with Umbridge who was so hated herself it maybe made it even harder for people. Like in the comment below about people trying to separate Snape from Draco and Draco from Pansy, maybe there's a problem with his having anything to do with Umbridge. Only it's hard to separate him from Umbridge. Though it's kind of weird because people usually separate those characters by suggesting Snape doesn't really like Draco and Draco doesn't really like Pansy. Thing is, it's canon that Draco doesn't really like Umbridge (I mean, we see that he's sucking up to her in ways he doesn't seem to be for Snape) and yet maybe it's not so easy to just write that in.

Even fanon!Draco goes on about 'what it means to be a Malfoy', so how could one forget that Malfoys=Lucius to Draco?? Ha.

Oh god, yes! Like it's a dynasty that skipped a generation with Lucius and Draco is now running the empire on his own. In canon, of course, it's kind of the opposite--there's Lucius and Narcissa, and then there's being a Pureblood which seems to include...well, The Weasleys for one.

Yah, people definitely slash actual -characters- instead of ideas given from statements about characters :>

Word. Especially on James. It would like shipping Sirius/OC. And really, there's no reason to think there was any slash there either. There's many reasons Sirius would be focused on James and on Harry besides anything slashy. It's just sad. I feel much the same way about S/R, actually. I like the ship, but the relationship to me seems more about two men who look at each other and see the ruins of their youth, really. They really care about each other, and I think they share things nobody else can, but to me what's almost sadder is that Remus knows how focused Sirius was on James (maybe they both were, for all I know).

[malafede.livejournal.com]

it doesn't seem like a lot of H/D writers have jumped on Harry's having taken Draco's father away and begun writing epics over it.

Hey, me too. A good... five paragraphs of it.

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

You did, you did, AND YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO FINISH IT SO I CAN READ IT! Or was all that talk that evening we spent together in NYC just a lie? *cries*

[jillojillo.livejournal.com]

Hi I hope you don't mind me leaving a comment here, as I always find your essays interesting.

H/S is one of my favorite ships, but I never consider it a "canon ship" nor I care if it is or isn't, I don't see how H/S is suddenly more or less plausible after Ootp, since I've always been into this Ship way before Ootp anyways. However, OotP confirms my interpretation that the dynamic between Harry and Snape is one of most important relationships of canon and their relationships will play a vital key role in the final outcome of the story (and of course when I say "relationship" I don't mean "romantic relationship"). I've always believe this prior OotP based on all the foreshadowings and development between them in the first 4 books, so all the H/S interactions in Ootp merely confirms my interpretations. So I do believe what will happen between Harry and Snape matters to the story much more than what'll happen between Harry and Draco. But by this I don't mean H/S is more "canon" or has more "evidence" than H/D (one of my favorites too btw) nor I think Draco doesn't matter, though I do think the fandom do overemphasize his importance.

And I want to stress is that, H/S isn't some "new" thing for many of us who had read/write/explore the dynamic this pairing way way before the release of OotP. Some people might suddenly "see" it, good for them, but it doesn't mean H/S is some brand new thing that start in OotP. It's a big fandom exist before the book and classic fics were written way before the release of OotP. What happen in OotP, namely the Occlumency and Penseive stuffs, are something a lot of S/H fans had been playing around with for years. It's actually a "reverse" thing for us in a way, so it's not like there are suddenly new fodders for people to work on, it's more like our fandom cliches actually took place in canon. It was actually funny to see so many popular cliches of H/S fics appear in canon.

Some people find the H/S dynamic in OotP more appealing and attractive than others (ex: H/D) because, beside the fact it's much more intense and Important, a lot of people find the whole Occlumency thing feels sexual, both the nature of it and what happen with it. Just look at the nature of occlumency, there's something very disturbingly intimate about the people involve in it. JKR even use sexually suggestive language and writing like "external penetration", "on all four", lots of panting and racing heart beat, also the what-does-she-means-by "trace his lip with one long thin finger" (it seems to be important that she had to mention it twice), these might not mean anything to you, but for many other people they come off as strong sexual subtexts. One can also interpret it psychoanalytically to see the whole thing as a metaphor. Snape instruct Harry to "clear his mind and emotion" before going to bed (good advice for many young teenage boys :P), It is interesting that they both explore (intentionally or not) and find sexual relate memories from each other, Snape finds Cho, Harry finds Snape mocked by a girl in a failing "broom" incident. Not to mention the whole Penseive scene, which could be see as a sexually traumatize experience for a young man. Of course, there are also many things happen between the two of them emotionally in those scenes that are also very intense and scream "ship" to some of us, the subtle hints of understanding and trust, memories and emotions sharing, the way the two of them dealt with what happen with the penseive incidence like a quarrelling couple, and of course the way Snape is Harry only hope in Umbridge office and how he tried to communicate with him with eye contacts..etc etc, these are all powerful stuffs and wonderful developments between two characters that can be easily read in "ship" ways, not to mention many of these are H/S fanfic cliches that were written before OotP anyways.

(For me, beside the Occlumency and penseives scenes in OotP, the other scenes I feel sexual tones (symbolic-wise, language-wise, theme-wise) in canon in relationship to Harry are the chamber scene in CoS and the graveyard scene in GoF.)

[jillojillo.livejournal.com]

conti.
that can't be denied. But not, imo, in a way that suggests he finds him any more attractive than he did before. More importantly, the Pensieve scene, as unique as it was, still followed the same pattern of all H/S interaction since book 1. Snape has always been the one to destroy Harry's view of a perfect father, Harry's seen Snape humiliated by MWPP before, they've always gotten on each other's nerves in a way that was disturbing to them because of its intimacy, Snape's tried to humiliate Harry, Harry's always humiliated Snape almost by accident. Snape's always been Harry's greatest protector, despite Snape and Harry's own disgust with that fact.

And all these things you listed here are exactly why the dynamic between these two characcters are so appealing to some of us and how they're far far more interesting to explore as a ship than the fact one finds another sexy. So what if Harry doesn't find Snape sexually attractive in canon? Harry repeatedly emphasize how hot Sirius is, does that mean Harry finds Sirius sexually attractive, since we know Harry also loves Sirius very much and vice versa, no one can denied that either, so does that mean Sirius x Harry is a "canon ship"? (one of my favorite btw) And may be it is just me, the way JKR describe Snape in OotP sound physically appealing more so than the first 4 books. Is that a change in Harry's PoV or just JKR describe him in a slightly different way or just me imagining things? Whatever the case, I don't think "physical attraction" is what makes a ship that feel canon, and a ship can feel very canon-ish despite the lack of it too. for me, I value the closeness (emotion-wise and physical-wise), amount and depth of interactions between two characters and how their relationship related to the story as a whole much much more.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

Yet it still seems a commonly held belief in fandom Snape's only pretending to like Draco in order to suck up

This happens to be one of my least favorite fanon assertions. It's usually put forward by Snape fans who want to make him look nicer, but IMO it makes him far less pleasant than if he actually likes Draco, no matter how much of a prat Draco is.

It makes me wonder if the problem or solution is that slash only plays things out that are already in the text, albeit through sex. So it's not that OotP suddenly gave Snarry shippers stuff to build from, it's that it gave scenes to replay over and over through slash, while H/D had a book where half the ship was absent from the other.

Either I don't really understand what you mean here, or I don't really see this. I read a lot of H/S, but I don't really see any of it as recreating the scenes (except in the sense of Harry and Snape needing to resume Occlumency lessons, but I don't think that's what you mean). Most of what I see tends to involve the characters growing, often moving away from what we see of them in these scenes to develop mutual respect and attraction -- you know, things that might actually be *useful* for a relationship. ;-)

In terms of canon evidence for a ship, I think that there are two different types of evidence, or alternately, two different ways of looking at ships. The one that you state near the top of your post, as for Arthur/Molly or Harry/Cho, is evidence that these characters are in a romantic relationship or have romantic feelings for each other. Similarly, I'd agree that Ron/Hermione falls into this category (which I'll call 'A'), as did Harry/Ginny in CoS -- I'd say there was no question that was a canon ship, even if it was completely one-sided. The other type, B, seems to look more for evidence of the ship's viability, or the future possibility of the ship. It tends to deal less with how the characters look at each other now and more with how well-matched they are. I'd say that most Harry/Hermione evidence tends to fall in this category, for instance. The two don't seem all that interested in each other, but as H/H shippers point out (sometimes very effectively), these two have a good basis for future romance, perhaps much more so than either R/H or H/G.

So bringing this to the slash ships you mentioned, I think all three have evidence that goes into one or both of these categories. For H/S, there doesn't seem to be much of any type A evidence that I can see, but there's a whole ton of type B evidence. Most of this is through the Occlumency scenes; the two get a deeper understanding of each other and develop some sympathy. By the end of the book, they hate each other more than ever, but the new knowledge they have of each other may allow them to appreciate the other, once they get over their more immediate hurts. (You could also add in something about how Harry's overlooking Snape in trying to rescue Sirius means that he won't forget him in the future, but I'd call that stretching it.) For H/D, I think you could call Draco's apparent obsession with Harry type A evidence, albeit one-sided, even if Draco isn't consciously attracted to Harry. The fact that Draco sees Harry as responsible for getting his father thrown in jail could potentially be type B evidence, as a new sort of connection between the two. Each has recently lost a father (figure) dear to him to the war, due to the actions of the other's side. How exactly this will/could lead to the pairing is open to a wide variety of fic possibilities. I think the S/D evidence you cited could go either way, but would more likely be type B. They get along and probably share mutual respect. Anyway, that's my analysis; feel free to disagree.

Of course, there's also the point that you can find "evidence" for nearly any opinion you want, but that's a whole other topic.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's usually put forward by Snape fans who want to make him look nicer, but IMO it makes him far less pleasant than if he actually likes Draco, no matter how much of a prat Draco is.

I agree-it's like people who think it makes Draco nicer to have him treat the other Slytherins like dirt. Um, no.

Either I don't really understand what you mean here, or I don't really see this. I read a lot of H/S, but I don't really see any of it as recreating the scenes (except in the sense of Harry and Snape needing to resume Occlumency lessons, but I don't think that's what you mean).

I don't mean recreating the scenes, but more like recreating the intensity and emotions that are present in canon-often as a starting point to move into something else. Even if you don't write the part that's canon. So, like, with H/S it seems like it's the intensity of the canon scenes that gives birth to the slash. So like with Sirius and Remus I feel like the heart of the ship is probably the relationship they have in their later life-that's the basis upon which people write the variation, if that makes sense.

The two don't seem all that interested in each other, but as H/H shippers point out (sometimes very effectively), these two have a good basis for future romance, perhaps much more so than either R/H or H/G.


Yes, I think that's the kind of evidence (the B type) that seems to fall into a grey area for me--as you said, you can pretty much find evidence for anything that way. And that's great for slash and het because you're looking for stuff for the story. But for me, when I see somebody say there's evidence I feel like that means it's something that's, like, happening in the story already. If it's just that they'd make an interesting couple or a good couple that doesn't seem like evidence to me since lots of people could be a good couple in theory and yet never have any interest in each other.

I guess that's what it sometimes happens when people pit ships against each other. I mean, when people argue that H/Hr is better than R/Hr, or one Harry/Slytherin ship is better than another, what are they really arguing, since neither is canon yet? It seems like it really comes down to either what makes more interesting stories (which probably depends on the author), what a particular ship "says" (which might depend on the author and the reader) or what relationship the reader would like. Or which person would be better for the character. But just like with real people, deciding intellectually on who they would do better with often has no bearing on who they want or end up with.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi, random person here.

I find your views on what constitute actual canon evidence very sensible. Strict rules from which strong evidence follows. To separate what is evidence of romantic interest or involvement from general interest or attention should be doable even for a very enthusiastic slasher. For the het ships (I suppose most people consider het default for the books?) this can be simple. Evidence? Fine, it’s floating. No evidence, still shippable but clearly in need of other, weaker kinds of textual backup.

I don’t know what definition you use for slash, though, and I don’t know how to pin it down, but say that a slash ship is a m/m or f/f ship of seemingly straight (or at least not openly gay) characters that a reader for one reason or other wants to see together. Then I suppose finding canon evidence in the very strict sense you presented above would make the ship... eh, non-slashy? canon? gay? or something else at least, that is if slash is somehow always subtexty.

So, while I think you may use the strict criteria for what is canon evidence with great success for finding the ships JKR actually sails, and predicting possibly important pairings in the last two books, they are perhaps not as useful as a measure of how realistically one may slash two characters and and stay close to canon. You might show that a character would be more canonically shipped with somebody else though. Given the real canon evidence for R/Hr, eg, R/D is canonically more unlikely than say Z/D.


When it comes to slash, and slashability, I’m not sure if canon evidence matter at all. I ship H/D, but can’t say I have ever bothered with looking for evidence, mostly because they are clearly not canon and I never expect them to be. To me, the slash potential is in the energy and the personalities of the characters, and what happens in the books are a different matter altogether, separate from their potential. But then I don’t write fics, so making the pairing plausible is not something I need to worry about.

Some fics seems to be written more as exercises of the possible more than the probable, and talking about evidence in the oh-my-god-somebody-wrote-that? pairs is not necessary or even very interesting, but if the ship is being presented as probable I guess the question of canon compability is more important.
I don’t think slash fanfiction must by nature be text dependant. I have no idea if this could work, but how about if you separate slash fanfiction in two basic approaches as in scenically- (the how can I slash them?) and character-driven (the why should I slash them?) fanfiction?

Replaying an existing scene seems a simple way of giving instant credibility to the relationship no matter what their canon characters are, “look, here it is, they really did do this and this is what it actually meant”. Textual precedence of how two characters interact and talk to each other would be the most valuable asset of this approach, perhaps.

I imagine that while writing about two characters that never or rarely canonically interact while the readers watch would give the writer more freedom to make her own dynamic, but that this would be more difficult to write convincingly. I can’t help but feel, though, that successfully written a character-based fic (either with a high profile of rare pair) would ring more true and seem more emotionally probable than a slashy reading of an existing scene, and not only because the reader already knows the “true” canon version of that scene. It’s a bit like in murder mysteries, unless Mr X has a motive for the murder, why would the reader want to know his alibi?

Could it be that what you call slash fodder, is the kind of evidence or situations that lends itself well to fics that wants to tell of the *how* and that since they don’t necessarily tell anything about or even care about *why*, the writers of *how* might seem especially careless or unconcerned with character evidence or consistency? Slashing for the sake of slashing?

- Clara

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Random people are great!

And you bring up a really good point here, that slash is really uncanonical by defintition--at least I know I've always thought of it that way. Meaning that if the two characters are together in canon it's not slash, it's just two characters who are gay or bisexual. I'm a person, for instance, who thinks that writing Brian/Justin from Queer as Folk is not slash because they're gay in canon.

So I'm more like you in looking at the relationships in canon--I'm really never looking for evidence. I guess I might be looking for "slashy bits" that just have that ring to it, something that sounds kind of sensual for whatever reason. There are a lot of slash ships that have those sorts of things. But what I'm really into is, as you say, the energy and potential for the characters. Sometimes ships that people argue have more basis because at least the characters care about each other not only don't interest me at all but seem less likely or easy to manage for whatever reason--Harry/Ron, for instance. There are certainly things in that relationship that can be slashed, but maybe not the things that people who love H/R usually like.

It's weird the way it brings up the whole OOC idea--is it OOC to slash certain pairs? And I feel that no, it isn't. I think you can keep the characters in character and slash them even if they would never do that in canon. I think I notice this a lot reading LOTR stuff--hobbit slash, to me, is interesting because by adding this sexual aspect you can see some of the parts of the relationship that aren't so clear in canon. In fact, I think hobbit slash brings out the cracks and flaws in the relationships while in HP slash often brings out the parts that bind characters together who were previously worlds apart.

Could it be that what you call slash fodder, is the kind of evidence or situations that lends itself well to fics that wants to tell of the *how* and that since they don’t necessarily tell anything about or even care about *why*, the writers of *how* might seem especially careless or unconcerned with character evidence or consistency? Slashing for the sake of slashing?

That could defintely be it. Or that one of the biggest draws of fanfic is the "what if?" factor, and the more there is in canon to begin with the more tempting the "what if?" scenario is. So if you've got Harry and Snape they already have an intense relationship. You just add the "what if?" of slash. Whereas with some rarer pairings the author has to convince you there's a reason to wonder "what if?" and then present their fic.

[anamirza.livejournal.com]

I'm going to set a record here for shortest comment.

Re: James/Sirius: I think there's considerable canon potential here. I mean, Sirius *moved in* with the Potters...Granted, it would have been better if they'd gotten their own place together, but still - I think a lot could be done with that OotP-revealed fact, and I haven't seen it really.

Not that I've particularly looked. :)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah--just think of what would be done with that if we'd heard Remus moved in with the Blacks, after all. Or look at the Weasleys, who in fic get up to just about everything inside the Burrow.

[ex-lonicera600.livejournal.com]

Re the taking away the father thing I really cannot understand this either why it's not more often used in fics. I mean Harry did to Draco what Voldy did to Harry: taking away the person he loved most, the person who defines him. He must be totally in shock, like when Harry found out th truth about his parents' death. So either he will try to get revenge, get his father out - or there may be a tiny possibility that one or both of them acknowledge how similar their situation truly is..

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I wonder if it's just a damn shame that OotP shows, once again, how hard it is to predict Draco's reaction to anything because his reactions seem to so often depend on the plot. I mean, after 5 years of "My father" this and that you would think we would know how devestating this would be and how. N_A was a great example of that--when Lucius was killed you didn't know exactly what potterstinks would do, but you were waiting with baited breath because how he felt about his father before was so clear. But in canon Draco's reactions to everything seem so often brushed aside or made into nothing, almost as if the author doesn't want to give him real feelings sometimes. So, like, in CoS Lucius is kicked off the school board or whatever and we just hear Malfoy wasn't quite walking around like he owned the school so much. It's just given to us as another reward for Harry. We don't get any real sense of how this affected him, how he understood the situation.

So I feel like there's always this possibility that the books will hit the reset button with Draco yet again and what seemed like such real emotion in the stairway scene will be replaced by cartoon mustache-twirling or just not given any respect. So maybe the difficulty in writing slash that uses this is that it shows how little Malfoy's been fleshed out, even when it comes to the most important relationship we know that he has. Fanon!Draco, after all, completely skips this issue by, as was said above, making Draco hate Harry less, not more, and having him not love Lucius. Where Snape was allowed to become more interesting by showing us more flaws and vulnerabilities so far JKR seems determined to keep Malfoy made of cardboard.

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

See, this is why I hate to read posts like this in the morning, when my brain is too caffeine-deprived to attempt a coherant reply.

Suffice to say, as someone who ships only slash and unconventional Het ships, I never deluded myself that there is 'canon evidence' in my pairings. Like you said, the only 'evidence' there is in the books is for the more 'obvious' pairings, and quite frankly, I am not interested in that.

But...half the fun in shipping and writing/reading fic is the exploration of the subtext. I do think there is some subtext for pairings like H/D and H/S, in the way there isn't for completely random pairings like Arthur/McNair or something (though knowing this fandom, someone's probably written the latter).

That is, I think both of them deal with issues that can be played out through sex, which to me has always seemed the basis of a lot of slash ships.

You know, I think that line has managed to explain my love for certain pairings better than all my posts together have.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I do think there is some subtext for pairings like H/D and H/S, in the way there isn't for completely random pairings like Arthur/McNair or something (though knowing this fandom, someone's probably written the latter).

Oh yes, definitely. I think some of the most interesting slash pairings are so because there's a good mixture of attraction and repulsion. I remember always feeling that really strongly in X-files with Mulder/Krycek. Even if it wasn't sexual in canon it LOOKED sexual and was related to it because of that--this reluctant attraction. Even if the characters didn't want to get to each other, they did. Both H/S and H/D have plenty of that, I think. Whether you ship one or the other (or both) probably is more like liking different versions of the same song rather than completely different music. Maybe that's why there is, I've heard, squabbles between them. People are maybe trying to make their own ship seem more different from the other than it is.

It's funny because in terms of just character dynamics I love H/S, H/D and D/S. It's just the only one that a primarily like to see played out through slash is H/D, for whatever reason. Though I think that ideally H/D should encompass all three relationships just as H/S and S/D should-that is, getting H/D together should not suddenly make Draco and Harry disconnected from Snape, just as H/S should not have to require a cutting off of Snape and Harry from Draco. I don't mean they all have to be together, but these three people all feel strongly about each other in whatever way they do, and the third person shouldn't be erased because two are slashed, imo.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I will say only this. It seems to me that for a lot of people "whatever connection between two characters" = "romantic subtext". I think someone once said Fred/George was canon because they were so close! You don't say.

Of course there's subtext for ships: it's the subtext the reader bring in when their romantic ideals react to the text of the characters. But when you use subtext for "stuff put there by the author to be intentially ambiguous" (the "canon! canon!" claims) Harry hating Snape because Snape's a convenient scapegoat for Siriu's guilt isn't enough. Also, why gloss over Harry's need to cope with his internalised guilt this way?

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

Also, why gloss over Harry's need to cope with his internalised guilt this way?

I agree with this, especially in the more general sense. Like ishtar79 above, I generally could care less whether a ship is more "canonical" than another. I think that may have more to do with my general fandom/fanfic attitudes than specific ship opinions, though. OTOH, it seems that when people use the relationship between characters to support "oh, look, they're obviously in love," it really can undermine the analysis or actual importance of one or both characters. To use an above example, I think it's valid to suggest that Draco's obsession with Harry and constant attempts to needle him are because he's got a crush that he can't admit to himself. Doing so, however, may lead a lot of people to say that this is the *only* reason or main reason Draco does all this, which leads them to stop looking for other causes. It can also provide a convenient excuse for why he's so unsuccessful at it -- he doesn't *really* want to hurt Harry. In turn, this lets them "write off" this behavior, which is a big reason why we have fanon!Draco who's schemes are always successful when he wants, and who can immediately get over his prior (apparent) dislike of Harry.

I think this is why I generally prefer subtler "evidence" that suggests a future between a pair; it tends to takes their relationship *outside* of a possible romance more seriously, in what I've seen, and leads to more accurate characterization and realistic relationship growth. Of course, more current "evidence" of a ship can be good if the shippers aren't using it to ignore other important things. It may be especially useful when it shows the characters who are more obviously in or interested in having a relationship -- R/H, for instance.

[lotesse]

It makes me wonder if the problem or solution is that slash only plays things out that are already in the text, albeit through sex. Okay, I totally totally love this. Because I personally don't give a flying whoop about canon in fic, het or slash. A pairing is interesting, not becase they are so totally doing it and here's the proof, lookit all these hints! but because two characters do interesting things when you put them together and they have to depend on each other or deal with loving each other.

A prime example for me is Ginny. I prefer to femslash her, and not because she's any other girl's canon soulmate. She isn't. I don't really believe in either of the two most common Ginny ships. Ginny/Hermione is cool, but in my heart of hearts I think that R/Hr is canon and that Hermione is attatched. I shipped Ginny/Cho over the three year summer, but then OotP!Cho wasn't someone that I connected with anymore. I don't really ship Gin with anyone. But I like who she is so much better when she's in a femslash environment. She just does incredibly interesting things, character-wise.

I do love using canon details, just for fun, as a shoutout of sorts. But fic, for me, is a way of exploring characters by observing and examining their reactions to character dynamics apart from the ones that we see in canon.

[tinderblast.livejournal.com]

Here's all the canon evidence you need - H/D forever!

http://img37.photobucket.com/albums/v114/indicaps/Harry%20Potter%20and%20the%20Prisoner%20of%20Azkaban/?action=view¤t=HP3TC_CD1-232.jpg&sort=descending

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Draco is the Half Blood Prince! He's part dementor!

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm hitting both the "Snape actually does have a civil relationship with Draco" and the "Lucius gets sent to Azkaban" elements in my the_ouroboros fic. Or at least, that's the plan. So do I get extra points?

The thing is, there are so many OTPers who see canon with "ship blinders". The "joint presents" Remus/Sirius crowd ignores the (to me) incredibly slashy PoA Remus/Snape tension in the scenes where Snape gives the Wolfsbane to Remus. The "all fours in Snape's office" Snape/Harry OTPers go la la la at Harry's angry claim that Snape essentially killed Sirius. Snape/Lucius shippers point at the "lapdog" comment. And so on.

Sometimes I worry that my mind is so open my brains will fall out. But I love to be convinced by a clever, perceptive writer that some odd relationship is plausible and even inevitable. atdelphi's Snape/Dumbledore, for example, or sanj's Harry/Neville. I can hold all these contradictory ships in my mind without any problem at all, when I read fanfic. But when I look at canon - I don't see any of them. Just the potential.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

The thing is, there are so many OTPers who see canon with "ship blinders". The "joint presents" Remus/Sirius crowd ignores the (to me) incredibly slashy PoA Remus/Snape tension in the scenes where Snape gives the Wolfsbane to Remus.

And the possible homoerotic James/Sirus undertones in the Pensieve scene! Why won't somebody think of the Sirius/James!

Seriously, I don't think there's many honest shippers in the world. I mean, shippers often claim their ship is "canon". If that were true, they'd have to ship every pairing with a shred of evidence, wouldn't they? It's much more honest to admit we don't any more have canon than what attracted us to the ship in the first place.

The "all fours in Snape's office" Snape/Harry OTPers go la la la at Harry's angry claim that Snape essentially killed Sirius. Snape/Lucius shippers point at the "lapdog" comment. And so on.

Oh boy. It's like Draco and that damn glass. I mean, it's nice that he dropped it because he's so boycrushing with Harry his urge to impress him makes him even more clumsy than he normally is... or maybe he just can't stand the fact Harry's such a star he loses control of his own limbs?

[no-remorse.livejournal.com]

I think that the term "canon evidence" is pulled and stretched in directions that have neither anything to do with most definitions of canon nor with evidence.

First of all there is an obvious difference between "conclusive evidence" and "evidence." So while I consider the evidence for Molly/Arthur to be pretty conclusive, the evidence for Ron/Luna is not. Yes, I see how the laughter and comment about the Yule Ballcan be taken as indication of Luna's romantic interest in Ron and Rowling foreshadowing a romantic relationship between those two, but there is a whole continent of difference between these speculations and speculating that Arthur and Molly dated, married, had sex, had children, because they love each other.

As for canon... now this is wanky topic. We have no clear definition of canon, some people say it's text, some say it's authorial intent and yet both definitions can supply "canon evidence" for absolutely anything. Isn't that fun?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think that the term "canon evidence" is pulled and stretched in directions that have neither anything to do with most definitions of canon nor with evidence.

LOL! Truer words were never spoken. And yeah for exactly the reasons mentioned. I see "evidence" that JKR is going for R/Hr, but I'm not sure how much weight that carries in any direction. Authorial intent means very little to me if it doesn't ultimately result in something unmistakable in canon. Figuring out what a character is supposed to be feeling in a scene is always important, I guess, so one could say that Luna likes Ron without even really shipping them and just saying it to explain what you think is going on with Luna in a scene.

It gets extra crazy too because often it seems people think explaining away canon stuff is the same as producing evidence to the contrary. For instance the whole "Snape doesn't really like Draco, he's just faking it." Sure that's possible, but there's not much positive evidence to suggest this...it's more just explaining away everything that suggests he favors him and coming up with a reason why. That can be done very reasonably, but it's not really about just reading what's there.

[lotesse]

Okay, so I actually kind of go by the "Snape doesn't really like Draco" idea. Because, to me, the way that Snape behaves towards Draco in class isn't the way that a teacher would treat a student that they personally liked. I've been there, as I'm an utter teacher's pet. Snape's over-the-top and quite possibly unwarranted praise of Draco seems like it would be counterproductive if the aim is to help Draco out. It's not going to encourage him to be a good student, and it's not going to do much to advance his knowledge. If Snape cared about Draco and wanted to really teach him the art of Potions, one would think that there'd be some constructive crit involved. One would also think that Snape would curb some of Draco's disruptive tendencies during class. Snape isn't the type to be okay with students goofing off during his lessons, especially not in any sort of disruptive fashion. But he lets Draco get away with it, somthing that I always fancied would have him silently gritting his teeth. That's favoritism and sucking up, not a personal liking.

Of course, Snape could like Draco AND be forced to favor him. Just because Lucius is watching doesn't exclude the possibility of him genuinely liking the little brat. So I'm not entirely sure aas to where that leaves me on the issue. I spose that I'm rather straddling the fence on this one.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Definitely anythign is possible--we see hardly anything of these two characters together, and don't even know how much they know about each other. Or at least how much Draco knows about Snape. He seems to be lying to him about helping Harry, which is a possibly explosive problem.

Of course, the problem with looking at Snape's behavior toward him in class is that even though it's counterproductive that assumes Snape would therefore consider it bad. I mean, look at the way he treats Neville and Harry in class--he doesn't seem to have the best instincts when it comes to appropriate behavior for a teacher. I don't remember him overpraising Draco that much--he praises him the first day and makes Harry and Ron help him in PoA, but I feel like Draco is mostly just there in Potions class, that Snape spends more time putting Harry down than building Draco up--usually when he's making noise it seems like he's laughing at Snape's jokes at Harry's expensive, which could please Snape. I definitely think Draco really likes Snape--Snape's feelings about Draco are probably far more complicated. And whatever they are he could easily end up destroying him, it seems to me, given his own tangled alliances and all that.

[blue-hobbit.livejournal.com]

Came here by daily_snitch and just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading your thoughts and this whole discussion.

There isn't much to say that hasn't already been said, but I just can't help asking... why are a lot of HP fans so obsessed with ships in the first place? Can one enjoy a certain pairing only if there's canon evidence for it? If not, where's the reason for stretching the definition of canon to the breaking point just to prove a pairing has even the slightest hint of canon?
I'm only a reader, not a writer, so maybe I'm missing something here. I agree it's fun to look for evidence of a favorite pairing in canon, but how does that relate to fanfiction?
For example, my personal favorite is Sirius/Remus, which accidentally can be argued to be somewhat canon, so any hinting at it in the books is like a little treat. Then again, I also very much enjoy Snape/Harry, which in my opinion has very little basis in canon. Is a S/R story "worthier" than a S/H one? Seems unreasonable, yet people continually get very involved in arguments like "why R/Hr is more canon than H/Hr" etc., as if giving canon evidence would make a certain groups of fics more "real"... and therefore better? So does the quality of a piece of fanfiction depend on the pairing? Even the most devoted R/Hr shipper would probably agree that that's not the case.
Which brings me back to the question... why the desperate hunt for canon evidence for pairings that probably are not meant to be? (in the books that is) Or using hints of one's own OTP to disprove another, when neither hasn't been proved by canon in the first place? Everyone reads the same books, but every word can be interpreted in so many ways it's just pointless to quote a line and then say "this is canon and therefore I'm right and your pairing is dead". That really has nothing to do with canon and everything to do with someone being too narrow-minded to consider anything but their own interpretation of the books.

Sorry for the rant, but like someone said before, HP fandom is pretty... intense about this whole shipping issue, which can be quite mind-boggling for someone not being used to that kind of thing (hobbitslash is so peaceful compared to this) ^_^;

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hobbitslash is definitely peaceful by comparison! I don't really get the argument either. I can see that it's natural for people with the same tastes to bond over those tastes, like if there are H/Hr shippers who don't like R/Hr they can talk about what they don't like about it and what they prefer about H/Hr, but I don't see the point in arguing over canon.

Actually, I asked someone once who thought this was important and wasn't crazy, and for her it was just that she had very different thoughts going into reading fanfic than I did. For her it mattered whether she could think this was possibly going to happen in canon when she read a fic. That's not something I relate to but I could see how she felt when she was reading it. Of course, I don't think she was somebody who argued about ships either. If you're talking about S/H vs. R/D or whatever, that just doesn't come into it. I don't think there's anybody who could honestly argue either of those couples are going to have sex in Book 7, yet people probably would still argue about it.

[(Anonymous)]

Hopefully you won't mind a random person commenting...

To me, any slash pairing doesn't really have cannon evidence. Not in this fandom anyway... I guess what compels me to read/write slash has more to do with the dynamic of two characters together, and not just speculation over random bits of "slashy" material in cannon and when the relationship has an element of having some unresolved issues bubbling beneath the surface, or some lack of insight of why characters act one way or another towards each other. That's why i'm a sucker for H/D instead of H/R for instance, because H/R has a very defined cannon relationship that, to me, doesn't seem to have that quality of something "unknown", while H/D seems to have it all over the place, and as a reader, makes the possibility of slash more believalbe... Did that make sense?

I have to agree that i can't understand why H/D shippers didn't jump all over the fact that Lucius is in jail and Draco thinks Harry put him there. To me that's a GOLDMINE for all sorts of fics, slashy or otherwise. Harry had his father figure taken away and his real father has been gone all his life. Which brings me to another point: Harry seemed to get a morbid satisfaction from seeing Draco upset about losing his father, which could be seen as Harry being glad that Draco is finally going through the same thing as Harry had to go through, and Draco finally losing he had that Harry didn't but always wanted to have, a Father ... Anyway, there's so many places this could go, but no one seems to want to adress it, and sadly, i don't think JKR is really going to play off of it in cannon.. but who knows.

Oh, and one fic I personally think is doing a good job adressing Draco's reaction to the end of OotP and his relationship with his father (without turning Draco into SmoothFanonIHateMyFather!Draco) is Eclipse by Mijan. I read the first 8 chapters in one (well maybe 2) sittings, so my memory of it might be a bit hazy, but i thought that it was well written and I could buy Draco's growth/change as a character.

~Katia

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks for commenting! And I totally agree--even if canon doesn't really deal with the implications of Lucius in jail it does continue that great symmetry H/D have always had. And I've always figured if Draco's obsession with Harry is good fodder for slash, then Harry's cold satisfaction at Draco's being brought low for whatever reason is just as interesting. If nothing else it suggests Draco is sort of a safe outlet for all of Harry's bad feelings--he can't feel pleasure at watching Ron or Neville get abused, but he can with Malfoy.

But I totally agree in general about what I look for in ships--not evidence that it's textual but just things that I want to see played out that way. For me that doesn't even always mean there can't be any real possibility of romance in canon. Mulder/Scully used to interest me in XF early on and that was always potentially there. It just depends on the characters for me. But it's true once they're together in canon you risk losing something--think of all those TV shows where the sexual tension being resolved seemed to signal the end of the show!

Completely unrelated to your post, but..

[ex-lonicera600.livejournal.com]

SisterMagpie, please help?

http://www.livejournal.com/users/lonicera/3293.html?view=9181

Re: Completely unrelated to your post, but..

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Gotcha!

Well, actually I just pointed you to a great essay that offers a good explanation--because I've always been confused about that too.