A Better Slytherin

[sistermagpie]

I was reading something on a list today about Slytherins being evil, perhaps specifically due to the fact that their house was based on Pure bloodlines (something that's changed to "ambition and cunning" by Harry's first year, though was possibly pretty unremarkable an idea thousands of years ago-Durmstrang doesn't even accept Muggleborns iirc). Anyway, there was the comment, "Unless of course one considers Draco to be a good Slytherin, which I most definitely don't." Somewhere else there was another essay on Slughorn being the "true" Slytherin--what they were before Voldemort, and so what they should be. I've written about the idea of Slughorn as "The Good Slytherin" before, and this is sort of the next step from that. Because I was thinking that while at this point I wouldn't say Draco was a Good Slytherin (meaning the Slytherin who is a good person), I did think he had potential in ways that Slughorn really did not.



If the sickness in Slytherin stems from the blood purity issue, it seems that the way to show it would be to show its destructiveness (which I think JKR tries to do with the Blacks, for instance). And in order to show a Slytherin without this idea...well, you could do the fanfic thing of just creating a Slytherin who doesn't have it but is still tight with the Slytherins, but as I've said in the past that seems like a cheat to me after the way it's been set up, because it sticks a non-Slyth decoy into the house so that Harry can collect a green and silver tie for his army without having to deal with the house as its been defined. There's nothing to stop the author from doing it that way, but it doesn't really show how Slytherin can change. It's more hoping for a purge of Slytherin rather than a new Slytherin--and that's uncomfortably close to, well, some ideas on the other side. It's also what Harry would want, so it's too easy.

So here's why I think Draco has more potential than even a better person like Slughorn. (And remember I said potential, so this isn't an argument that Draco's already redeemed in the fandom sense, nor a love letter to Tom Felton) I take Harry's note that Slughorn seemed "a little too surprised" about Lily's blood given her talent very seriously. I think Slughorn buys into the Pureblood ideals he was probably raised with. JKR doesn't really go into the history of this sort of thing, but she often, imo, falls back on hints that the WW's history mirrors our own. So its society in the 1950s possibly had more obvious distinctions based on blood. It was simply more acceptable to be openly discriminatory in conversation etc. I seem to recall that Slughorn's club in Tom Riddle's years were mostly boys, reflecting the same shift towards co-ed things that I think of in our world. It was just part of that whole stereotype for there to be boys there. I wouldn't be surprised if they were all from old Pureblood families as well.

Someone described Slughorn as trying to get away from that mindset, but I don't he's trying all that hard. It's more like he's just going with the flow, imo, softening and stretching his ideas over the years. Yes, he has non Purebloods in his group, but that doesn't mean he doesn't see a difference between them and the Purebloods. One can, for instance, be a completely racist owner of a team and still pay top dollar for non-white athletes. That's what keeps Slughorn from being that hopeful, to me. He's older and he's made his way. He fawns over Lily and seeks out Harry's Muggleborn friend Hermione, but I think that's more his changing with the times than any inner drive to be fair. He's made allowances and rationalizations. He's polite and welcoming, with these uglier possibilities just peeking out at odd moments. I think he'd be just as happy with all Purebloods. It's certainly better than nothing, but it suggests, to me at least, someone who clung to those beliefs enough to stretch them with the times rather than abandon them.

Obviously Draco hasn't abandoned these same ideas at all--far from it. Perhaps he never will and the idea that he would even consider it has never entered JKR's mind. But based on what's in canon now, she's laid the groundwork for a change here. I don't mean that he's been changing already or anything like that. What I mean is, look at his character, especially in contrast to some of the older people. Draco is not the polite bigot. By being more open and simple, Draco's bigotry is easier to see and address. He's not Lucius who uses the term "Muggleborn" to describe the person Draco should be ashamed of being bested by in an exam and speaks wistfully of changing times and laws while being a DE. Nor is he Slughorn trying to sound forward-thinking to Harry because his mother and best friend are Muggleborns while surely also smiling benignly at any Mudblood jokes Blaise Zabini might tell.

No, Draco's pretty black and white about this: filthy Mudbloods, purge the world of them, mind the smell, don't slime up my hand. It's a lot uglier, but it's also kind of betting it all there, like there's a lot riding on this. And while Draco has certainly never shown any sign of doubting or letting up, I have really started to see more of an arc between him and Hermione than I did before. It used to be everyone always just concentrated on his "warning" Hermione at the QWC, which I didn't think he was doing--and still don't. But I am beginning to see something potentially set up in his dealings with Hermione, and it's pretty simple. He wants to hate her, but he keeps having to face this disconnect between what she's supposed to be and what she is.

CoS is the first book where they have something to do with each other personally, starting before school. Lucius makes a crack about Draco's grades being at the "thief and plunderer" level. (I'm confident after HBP that we are meant to see Draco as basically a good student--not a genius, but up there in the class.) Draco brings up "that Hermione Granger" as a teacher's favorite, using her as a defense for himself. Lucius coolly says he'd have thought Draco would be "ashamed" that a "Muggleborn girl beat him in every exam." This makes Draco abashed and angry. So there's the gauntlet laid down, ironically by Lucius himself. In trying to shame Draco into living up to his blood, he's laid out the basic fallacy of his belief system. If Purebloods are so much better at Magic and superior, why is Hermione top of the class? Will Draco see that the Pureblood Supremacy idea has been falsified and reject it? Or will he try to force the world to conform to those ideas?

He'll try to force the world to conform. When Hermione humiliates him in front of the team, he calls her a Mudblood, trying to insist she is nothing and can never be, no matter how she does in school, because of her blood. This, unsurprisingly, is the book that introduces the whole "cleansing of the race" idea, and Draco wants Hermione to be the first to go. That would certainly show who was superior. If he can't beat her on exams, this shows that it doesn't matter. Draco's totally on board with the program, wishing he could help the heir--be Robin to Voldemort's Batman. Hermione, meanwhile, is cooking Polyjuice to get into the Slytherin Common Room, having also identified Draco as the face of Voldemort's beliefs at her school (though she, the Muggleborn, doesn't gain access to Slytherin herself, interestingly). Draco also brings up Myrtle, though at that point no one knows that's who he's talking about, when he says the last time the Chamber was opened, a Mudblood died.

For the next few books Draco is still supporting Voldemort, though we don't get too many scenes of Draco specifically angry at Hermione. (There is the slap, which never gets connected to blood issues.) We do get the Death Eater scene at the QWC where he draws the connection between Hermione and the Muggles--he sees her connected to them in ways Harry and Ron don't. GoF also has my favorite new wrinkle to their relationship. On re-reading I have become rather convinced that the Potter Stinks badges, which flash "Potter Really Stinks" when they're tampered with, were made by Draco with the assumption that Hermione would try to turn them against him, and booby-trapped with that in mind. It's not something I can prove in canon at all-Draco doesn't say he made them or had them made--I don't think it's a big stretch either. What I like about it is that it does suggest that same competitiveness on Draco's part. Like he'll say he's better than Hermione loud and clear, but he would like to actually prove it, perhaps to himself more than anyone else.

Draco's mostly waiting in the wings in OotP, being set up for his own number in HBP. In that book Hermione makes it into the Slug Club--but Draco seems to have been inducted into his own Inner Circle as well. Obviously there you've got Draco actually doing what he wanted to in CoS, helping the Heir kill someone, and there he is linked with Myrtle, another Muggleborn. Draco may not know about her bloodline, but he probably didn't ask either. The main thing in HBP is that in Draco's final dialogue with Dumbledore, a scene I assume should be important given that it's the thing JKR wastes much of Dumbledore's last breath on, Draco reveals he's been getting ideas from Hermione --the coins and the Potions both. He refers to her as "that Mudblood Granger" and Dumbledore tells him not to use that word. Draco chides him for caring about language when he's about to die and Dumbledore (who is about to die, but knows it won't be by Draco's hand) says that yes, that still matters.

Now, do I see this as some big turnaround for Draco? No, HBP just gets Draco to the moment where he's potentially going to make some choices, stop following a script. But there is enough of a foundation laid (not much needed, really) for him to have to choose one way or the other--Pureblood ideology or not--in a way that slippery Slughorn or even Lucius maybe never had to choose. At this point that kind of choice seems like what Slytherin as a house would have to symbolically go through. It's not just somebody showing up without those bad qualities to be a Harry supporter, and it's not getting rid of it only through death, jail or exile (the last two suggesting they will return ASAP).

This would possibly finally ask the unasked question of the whole thing: how does one come to see this line of thinking is wrong? Did Snape go through the same thing? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe Regulus didn't either. It could sort of be the thing that's failed in the past, that side-switching concentrated on the symptom instead of the problem. Sirius says lots of people agreed with Voldemort's ideas but changed their mind when they saw what he was willing to do to achieve power--iow, they liked the Pureblood superiority idea, but didn't like Voldemort. Turning from Voldemort is the temporary, superficial solution. A far more hopeful future would depend, imo, on the idea that someone who actually believed in these ideals could come to no longer believe in them.

This isn't a prediction for anything in canon--no idea which way it will go. But whether or not JKR chooses to use it, I think she has created one character to play this out on. It would be a good reason for creating Draco the way he is, as opposed to making him a slicker, cooler Slytherin villain. That Draco could put on a face of thinking Muggleborns were equal while still believing them inferior underneath the surface and so keeping a little bit of Voldemort alive.

Comments

[onlyinfatuated.livejournal.com]

I don't know ... I don't think that Draco will ever come to respect Mudbloods. He'll tolerate them (he's got to), but he won't respect them, won't see them as equal. And I think that Lucius set it up for that more than anything. I think that Draco will learn to file down his tongue, veil his prejudism the way that Lucius did, rather than screaming out the word "Mudblood" when word comes round that the Chamber opened. I think it's learning when to keep his mouth shut that's going to be the biggest lesson he'll have to learn, lol, and I think that it's because of Lucius that he started to learn it so far.

The one time we hear Lucius actually speaking with Draco, he tells Draco to pretend to be nice to Harry Potter for the sake of maintaining an image. And Draco just goes around and does the exact opposite every year following. It got to the point where Lucius probably realized that it would be stupid for his son to suddenly go from hating Potter the most to being his friend, so he probably just gave up. (Which is one reason I love the idea of Draco Polyjuicing into Tonks, because it's the first time we actually see him heeding his father's words and following them, by pretending to be nice to Harry for the sake of keeping up his guise as Tonks.) And I think that he'll be doing the same with mudbloods, when all this is over.

I don't know, I think that he won't hate them or anything (I actually don't think that he's ever really hated anybody, except Harry) and he'll learn to accept them, but he'll always have those pureblood idealogies. He'll always choose a pure-blood over a mudblood, and a mudblood will always have to actually prove themselves to him by going from ground zero to higher floors. Like, when he first meets them I think he'll be dismissive of them, and so they'll have to go from there to earn his tolerance (because I think respect would be stretching it much too much), and a mudblood will always have to work twice as hard to prove themselves to him then a pureblood will.

I think that the milestone for him, then, would be in actually accepting them, eventually. Right now he just won't see anything else to it. They're mudbloods and they're filth. But I think that he was the potential, not to see them as equals forevermore, but to always associate a mudblood with a negative connotation (and every mudblood he's met has ended rather badly, when you think about it--Creevey, Hermione, for some) but to have the potential to see a gray there. Not a white, certainly, but a shade of gray. Like most seniors with racism. They'll meet people of different races, be their friends, but they still won't learn to see the whole race as any better. Like, a white person will meet one black person, see them as being a terrific person, but the next time they meet a black person they'll still be skeptic of forming any sort of friendship, and will most likely try to avoid them.

I just don't believe that Draco is going to wind up throwing away all of his pureblood idealogies. He'll make exceptions, maybe, but they'll still be there, and he'll always prefer a pure-blood to a mudblood, he'll always be wistful over an intelligent mudblood and think of how much better they'd have been if they were a pureblood instead. But I don't think it's coincidence that the boy he tried to befriend twice and was likely the first boy he ever extended an offer of friendship to was a half-blood, or that the man who stepped in as his father when his actual father was in prison was also a half-blood. It's a balance, really. Like, he'll always primarily think of mudbloods with a negative connotation, but he'll be more accepting of half-bloods.

Ugh, I hope that made any sense.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I don't know whether respecting them would be in the picture either, exactly. I mean, he doesn't have to become a great guy fighting for their equality, really. But I was actually thinking of this scene when I was thinking about this:

The one time we hear Lucius actually speaking with Draco, he tells Draco to pretend to be nice to Harry Potter for the sake of maintaining an image. And Draco just goes around and does the exact opposite every year following. It got to the point where Lucius probably realized that it would be stupid for his son to suddenly go from hating Potter the most to being his friend, so he probably just gave up.

To me that sort of points out a difference betweent them--which granted could have something to do with age. I love that Draco sort of says what Lucius doesn't say, but really means. He doesn't see any reason to hide his feelings about right and wrong because they are right and wrong. Hating Harry is important to him, so he can't really lie about it. That's why I have a hard time picturing Draco growing up to be Lucius, somebody who can just purely act on what makes things better for him.

I mean, not that he doesn't keep his feelings in control in HBP, but that's more because he's more directed there. Everything he's doing is in service of the things he knows are good. He doesn't waste time picking on Harry, but he doesn't have to pretend to like him, that we know for sure. Even if he's Tonks he's not saying that *he* likes Harry, he's just having to pretend for Tonks' sake.

But of course, like I said, this isn't a prediction. It could go any number of ways. I just love watching Draco have to actually deal with and think through the way he feels about this stuff, dredge up any feelings he's repressing and all that. Mwahahaha!

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

Very interesting. It makes me think of the K2K-theory, where they suggest that maybe the bishop Hermione takes out symbolises Draco, and not necessarily in a "Hermione kills him"-way (I think it's unlikely that any of the trio would kill a fellow student anyway), but maybe more symbollically, making him fall from his own side, or something.

I'm sure I'll have more to say about this later.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ooh, interesting. What is the chess game in GoF? Where somebody's taken out by two very recklessly brave pawns or bishops or something like that? It will be cool ultimately to see if that game relates to the end, though. I mean, when you play chess does taking out the other player's piece have to mean symbolically killing them, or can you just be capturing them? So Voldemort would have captured Peter.

This is the only comment I have ever written to need two parts...

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

You're enough to bring a girl back to her first ship, you are. Ah, Draco/Hermione, come to me, I have missed you.

As usual, I come to yelp 'Yes!' at you. I've always liked the portrayal of Draco's bigotry because it did seem so petty and personal, and so very unlike politic Lucius, who quite obviously did not go around the place calling people Mudblood. Snape is the one we see calling someone else Mudblood, and that's when he's young, upset and talking to a girl who has (unwittingly) helped humiliate him.

Not that Draco's in the same case as Snape. For a start, he's much younger than Snape when we first see him say Mudblood, and the fact that he's a pureblood means I doubt he's given the situation a moment's real consideration. Snape is clearly burningly conscious of the half blood (princeness) of himself, Draco is comfortable and able to drawl out calm opinions to boys he's just met about not letting the other sort in. Which always amused me, because he so clearly believes that most of the world agrees with him, it's self-evident, daddy and all his friends always said so. When Draco could quite conceivably have been talking to Seamus Finnigan or Dean Thomas, who would've been like 'OMG DUDE WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU SAYING?! I AM TAKING YOU FROM THIS ROBE SHOP TO THE CLEANERS!' Draco was quite lucky to get Harry, who was just 'um... dude, I do not know what you are talking about... plz, plz do not ask me any more questions...' Draco does not seem to have any idea of the fact that what he's saying is likely to produce outraged disbelief.

He does know that Mudblood is a nasty word, but again, I like the way he uses it. (Not that I go 'yay' when he uses it, of course...) He uses it to Hermione, and in response to much more provocation than Lily gives Snape, imo. Lily is trying to help Snape, Hermione (who doesn't know a thing about Quidditch, which would underline Draco's view of the Muggleborn as ignorant) has just said Draco bought his way onto the team. Which I do not think is true, and which Draco can legitimately be upset about. And he never uses it on another student. It would be so easy to show him to push Colin Creevey out of the way with 'Trying to walk here, Mudblood!' But no, it's just Hermione whose hand he won't touch, etc. It's not that he's pretending to be bigoted to annoy her - he is a bigot, but unlike Snape or Tom, he's not burningly obsessed with it. He doesn't need to be - he's not a halfblood, he's not a politician. He's unthinkingly accepted it and more concerned with playground insults.

Part 2

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

It's significant, I think that in CoS he's all 'HAHAHA a Mudblood died!eleven!' and in HBP we see him amicably accepting comfort from that same Mudblood. He may know and see them (as Myrtle sees them) as kindred spirits in victimhood, he may not know - but even if he doesn't know, it means he didn't ask. Didn't occur to him to check. It's not a religion with him the same way it is with others - it's an opinion, and it's not even an opinion he came up with on his own. With that fact (and with the Hermione arc, which I utterly agree exists) Draco is the Man Most Likely To Change.

I also agree that it would be a cheat to see anyone else change sides because Harry is our main character, and his development is vital to the book. He can't be told 'you were right about everything! Everything! Snape and everything!' by the narrative. He's got nothing much against Slughorn. He'd have very little against, say, Theodore Nott the Good Slytherin ('guess not all of Slytherin is evil... but Malfoy's evil overshadowed everyone so much, I cannot be blamed for thinking so! btw, what did you say your name was again? Excellent!') Harry's arc is as important as Hermione's arc - chiefly because apparently when Draco is minding his own business (mending cabinets for evil) Hermione doesn't give a damn what he's doing. If he's not in her face endangering Hippogriffs, he's not really on her radar. She had no idea in CoS what Draco was calling her. If he'd said it to Harry and Hermione by themselves, they would have just been like '...well, I am rubber and you are glue, I guess...'

It would be really, really interesting to see Hermione learn Draco'd copied her and be sort of flattered. (It'd be even more interesting if the parallel between Hermione copying the Death Eaters as she does in OotP and Draco copying her made them meet in the middle because of her bad choices and his unexpectedly good ones...) But Harry's already watching, and because what he sees is what we the readers see, that more than anything makes Draco the character who could reform, given the catalysts of Dumbledore and Hermione.

This was a terribly long and involved way to say, great essay! Call me and I will buy you a drink!

[mondegreen.livejournal.com]

He wants to hate her, but he keeps having to face this disconnect between what she's supposed to be and what she is.

Kind of like cognitive dissonance? Draco believes that Muggleborns are inferior, but when he witnesses Hermione as not inferior to himself, he becomes anxious. To relieve the anxiety, he tries to equalize his beliefs with reality -- so he constantly tries to put down Hermione, create a world where marks don't represent intelligence, etc. I can definitely see that.

Like he'll say he's better than Hermione loud and clear, but he would like to actually prove it, perhaps to himself more than anyone else.

Right. Because in order to relieve his cognitive dissonance, Draco has to (a) alter his perceptions of what the external factors of "superior" and "inferior" are (i.e. prove that cleverness is in outsmarting someone rather than making good grades), or (b) altering his perception (and internal beliefs) of Muggleborns as inferior to Purebloods. Here, Draco is doing the former.

Draco reveals he's been getting ideas from Hermione --the coins and the Potions both.

I think it's here where we find a shift in Draco's solutions to his cognitive dissonance. Rather than relying on changing external perceptions like grades he begins to accept that maybe Hermione, despite her Muggleborn status, might actually have clever ideas -- ideas that Draco can adopt and use. Here, Draco is altering his beliefs rather than his perceptions of outside factors (like grades). I can definitely see where you picked up on the change here. It'll definitely be interesting to see where JKR takes it.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

To relieve the anxiety, he tries to equalize his beliefs with reality -- so he constantly tries to put down Hermione, create a world where marks don't represent intelligence, etc. I can definitely see that.

It seems like that kind of maybe gets started in CoS, and it doesn't seem to be something he can really talk to Lucius about or anything, since Lucius just expects him to succeed. So it maybe good that he's forced to be at school trying to deal with this "problem" himself. Up until Hogwarts he probably never met any Muggleborns.

Here, Draco is altering his beliefs rather than his perceptions of outside factors (like grades). I can definitely see where you picked up on the change here. It'll definitely be interesting to see where JKR takes it.

Yeah, I really do hope that it is going to get taken somewhere. I know if I were Hermione, for instance, I'd be much more satisfied by an outcome where Malfoy just realized he was wrong and changed than one where he was punished for not knowing all along, with the added twist that he was needing to rely on me for help.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

Very, very interesting. I never thought about it like this, but it's absolutely true that Slughorn and even Lucius have avoided really coming down on one side or another--they've never had a crisis of conscience that impels them to commit themselves in one direction or another. And after HBP, I don't see how Draco can avoid having exactly that kind of crisis of conscience, a "dark night of the soul."

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It does seem that way to me. I mean, obviously I'm not thinking of Draco becoming some superhero champion of Muggleborns or totally dropping his previous personality. It's just that it seems like it's being placed before him so he can't avoid it. It's very hard for me to imagine Draco not being on one side or the other on that issue.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Someone described Slughorn as trying to get away from that mindset...

That might have been me, depending on the list you mean. I said that Slughorn, while apparently a racist, is trying to submerge, or even rid himself of, that trait.

...but I don't he's trying all that hard. It's more like he's just going with the flow, imo, softening and stretching his ideas over the years. Yes, he has non Purebloods in his group, but that doesn't mean he doesn't see a difference between them and the Purebloods.

I actually do have a reason for suggesting that ol' Sluggy is trying to change himself with the times. It involves some actual RL racism, and a person who was actively trying to change.

The 1960s, a family from the south moving into an integrated, working-class Los Angeles neighborhood. The parents had both been raised, much like the speculation here about Draco Malfoy, to use a particular epithet casually. These people have two very young children, the younger still in diapers. They are staying in the area, so there is no going back to the ways they were used to.

I was a teen then, and talked to the mother occasionally since we lived next door. She accidentally used that racist term, belatedly adding an 'o' at the end. At the time, it was perfectly proper and respectful to use the word 'Negro', in case anyone was wondering. Usually, 'Negro' only has two syllables, but her attempt to be proper gave it three.

I must have looked at her funny. She said that she was trying to stop using that sort of language. Insert the usual 'they're no different from us really' conversation here. Her concern was that her children would innocently pick up on the racist term and use it, and she didn't want them to either use racist terms, or to be racist. She had more hope for her children, that things were changing for the better and they were a part of that.

From the minute Slughorn got onto the topic, I could see this woman in my mind. He really is trying to change. It's hard, and it goes against his entire life and upbringing so far. And, it may be too much of a stretch to expect miracles over the course of one book. But, he's trying. He's trying with the talk, he's trying with the more liberal appearance of his Slug Club, he's trying to change, IMO.

He still sees Purebloods as better. He may always like a particular Half-blood or Muggle-born, but still suspect the group, as onlyinfatuated suggested for Draco. But, he's trying to keep these sorts of slip-ups to himself and be a good role model for the children under him. I also saw him as trying to convince himself in his little talk with Harry about his mother, at their first meeting.

I think he's trying. And I think, with Slughorn, that may be all we can hope for, while holding hope for the generations to come. The fewer adults they see holding racist ideas, the less they'll know how to hold them themselves.

Which is where Slughorn and Lucius part company, I think. Privately, Lucius is not trying to get over his prejudice, and his son would know that. He only puts on the politic face. Slughorn tries to put the new ideas into action. Maybe people won't care, he'll still be a racist. But it is a step, and a hard one for a man like Slughorn. IMO.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ah yes--that is more what a meant, so then I agree. Slughorn is not unaware of the changing times and while he may never have had a problem with Pureblood Supremacy before, he's not that way now. Unlike, say, Lucius, who would resent the change in attitude (and Lucius is not young enough to have been brought up in the same way).

It's just--as you said--this is probably the most we can expect from him. Not because he's a terrible person, imo, but because (and this is more my point in bringing him up), he's old. The books just aren't going to really focus on Slughorn's change in attitude, which wouldn't have as much impact on society. His main power now is the affect he has on students, many of whom are already far beyond him in terms of their mindset because they were born later.

[cleverthylacine]

Slughorn reminds me of my dad and his non-white students when I was a kid. They loved him and he was very affable with them but at the same time, it was made quite clear to me that I should never marry anyone like this.

My family is very like the Malfoys, mind you, and my father doesn't remind me of Slughorn generally...just in that respect. My dad certainly never perved on his students!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL--Yeah, there's a lot more...uh...stuff to Slughorn than just his attitude about this. But yeah, that's a good analogy. It's not like you can only be one extreme or the other.

[onomatopoetry.livejournal.com]

I definitely agree on the whole age issue -not being able to teach old dogs to sit, etc. And Draco *is* changing, although as we see it up until now, only in terms of developing a sense of subtlety (it's actually something that grated on me immensely in the first couple of book; Rowling mentions again and again how ambition and cunning are the traits of Slytherins, and yet Draco, described as a typical, almost stereotypical, Slytherin, possess neither. He's about as subtle as a butter knife*, and not ambitious at all, as he believes he already has it all. But then he is a child, and a spoilt, bratty one at that, and while you're right in that he doesn't seem to change attitude, he does change his approach. But yes,I agree, there's potential for change. A crisis of some kind (playing with the big boys) brought about his attitude change in HPB, perhaps another one (failing to kill Dumbledore and the subsequent punishment) was required for the next, possibly upcoming. And like you, I am not talking about a huge turnaround -just a kind of peak on the character arch. But then I am only guessing here.

Counting Slughorn out (and I think you're right about everything there) agreeing on Draco's potential, we have Snape and Regulus left among the ones you mentioned. I honestly think that's the three choices she has, not only would a non-Slyth decoy [stuck] into the house so that Harry can collect a green and silver tie for his army without having to deal with the house as its been defined be annoying for those reasons; I would be uncomfortable with plugging as major a character as that would have to be in so late in the storyline. It's one of the three, and I should probably keep as OT a discussion as this out of this discussion.

As I wrote that last paragraph, it struck me that JKR *is* on a continuing quest to throw us on the wrong tracks. Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps she'll somehow think of a fifth option. But I can't imagine what it would be.

*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I find it really fascinating that JKR seems so interested in the idea of a Slytherin changing his mind that she's potentially done it three times--Snape, Regulus and now Draco. I hope we'll be learning a lot about the first two in the last book, and I suspect they'll all three be different from each other. It would be good, actually, if the first two somehow influenced the last (current generation) in a good way.

Elkins had brought up a really interesting thing elsewhere that I've really latched onto about the DEs all being sort of childish--except Lucius. They are all morally stunted growth-wise, relying on Voldemort to validate them on whether they've done right and wrong. Snape sometimes does not seem like this at all, but he has moments of regressing to an immature state. Lucius is the one DE who doesn't seem that way, and I think a big reason for that is that he needs to be a father figure for Draco, and he can't be a child and a father at the same time. (Snape, too, must sometimes be in that role.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't think Draco is a bad person :> He's just not an admirable person, and I doubt JKR will ever make him that way. Though when I first 'met' Slughorn in the 'armchair' scene I really liked him (and not in a 'wow, this is a Slytherin but I like him sort of way' and not in a 'wow, this is a jerk but I think he's interesting' sort of way), but then the ass-kissing got in the way.

...I also wish people would stop harping on about the Slytherins' fixation on 'blood purity' or how they're all so racist, etcetc, but I know it's a lost cause. I just find it so dishonest. Is that -really- why these people dislike them--?? It doesn't compute and sounds so moralistic-- do people really like or dislike characters based on moral grounds this heavily--?? Doesn't it just -scream- smokescreen, or is that just me--?? Possibly this is because I've never disliked a character on 'moral' grounds in my life, if by moral grounds you don't mean things like 'he's manipulative', which is a part of -my- personal ethics but not most other people's. Argh. Anyway, I really don't think that's the 'badness' of Slytherin in a nutshell by a longshot, to JKR anyway; I think there's lots of negative traits implied/intended by JKR at least, like being power-hungry and orthodox in general and self-centered and... um, mean.

...Somehow I still can't picture Harry himself having an army. I'll be v. surprised if that happens, but it -might- in the sense that people might -use- Harry, but Harry will never work well in groups and/or spend a lot of time being an actual leader, I suspect, 'cause the books will always revolve too heavily around him & Ron & Hermione. Notice how I can't back any of this up, but :> Anyway, just 'not supporting Voldemort and not being too racist' can't be what makes a 'good Slytherin' 'cause in that case we have Snape in some ways at least, in that I think he's a much more 'moral' character than Draco.

Er, though of course Draco has potential, making an argument for potential alone just makes me sad-- everyone has potential; I mean, I see (largely failed/wasted) potential in Tom Riddle, to some small degree. I think there are a million reasons not to make Draco slick or cool though-- he's there to be mocked, to fail and to be the shadow that outlines Harry's successes. If he was really sparkly, Harry might actually worry more, ahahaha -.-;; But if it's all about believing-and-then-not-believing, there's still Snape, right--?

It also seems like Draco's point isn't to be 'good' but rather more complex-- more pitiful, pathetic, in good and bad ways. Plucky? He seems motivated less by belief in the cause and more by personal vendetta issues, either because 'oh no, my DAD' or 'oh god, POTTER'. It never seemed like he cared about ideals or higher moral principles either way, whatever he spouted. He's just too, uh, down-to-earth. Or something.

Don't mind me, I barely thought during this whole comment-- I'm mostly rambling 'cause the whole reasoning behind people's little anti-Slyth biases annoys me. Well, I mean, not because I have a pro-Slyth bias, but maybe because I don't it annoys me more, I'm not sure o_0

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think I kind of do admire certain things about him that I don't have or can't do..they're just not the parts of him that are dreadful.:-)

I just find it so dishonest. Is that -really- why these people dislike them--??

Oh absolutely. It's like...how different would Draco be if we cut out the parts where he specifically says he hates Mudbloods? But sometimes people will honestly say they just hate him because he's prejudiced and they really can't stomach that. This while defending any Mugglebaiting the Weasleys do or whatever. JKR could *easily* create someone who thought Purebloods were superior and if she made him a nice guy people would be lining up to explain it away. People even do that with Slytherins they like all the time, even if they are, canonically, probably or definitely bigoted. You don't like people or dislike them on moral grounds, imo. You like them first and then you look for good things about them, and vice versa.

But if it's all about believing-and-then-not-believing, there's still Snape, right--?

Maybe, but if so that still already happened and didn't help anything. I mean, Snape has never really been bigoted within canon--except in the Pensieve, and many many people claim he never really bought into that as well. He's a half-blood, he was just saying that because of his gang, he joined Voldmemort for some other reason.

It never seemed like he cared about ideals or higher moral principles either way, whatever he spouted. He's just too, uh, down-to-earth. Or something.

Totally-but those might wind up pushing him to have to say something about the ideals, if that's stuck in his face, you know? My main reason for even thinking this way was when Dumbledore said the "don't use that word" thing. Maybe it was just supposed to make Dumbledore look good, but I thought it just seemed important that this was the one time anyone ever said that to Draco in a way that was serious and not just, "Don't call her that, you obnoxious ferret!" while he laughed at getting the reaction he wanted.

[joyfulgirl1013.livejournal.com]

Actually, the werewolf theory fits in pretty well here. If Draco were to be a werewolf, the sort of predjudice he's been directing at Hermione would be directed at him, and it would have that sort of symetry I think JKR is fond of. But anyway...

I have to say just flat out, it's very odd being black and at the same time a HUGE Draco fan. You get stares. ^^ But I think it's because his bigotry to me seemed to be like a lot of the rest of his behavior, a wan shadow of his father's. And there are so many more good things about Draco's character that shine much brighter. Draco to me has always been internally divided in every way possible, much like Hamlet, because I think a lot of his impulses go against his upbringing. There's what he knows versus what he observes, and Draco's a very careful observer.

To me, it's always been very hard to relate to the Muggleborns as any sort of minority group just because they're completely unaware of any prejudice surrounding them until they come to Hogwarts and someone like Draco gets in their face. Whereas...if you're a minority where I am (America) there's generally a history of prejudice against your family, so even if no one calls you a name, you're aware of it practically from birth. So that when somebody does call you a name, it affects you deeply. When Hermione was called a Mudblood she got what it meant, but because there wasn't that history behind it for her, she could just let it roll off her back, say "Malfoy's stupid" and move on. Ron was the one most offended because he got the horrible history of it, and that rang...false to me. And there is cohesion to minority groups, a recognition of the past that connects us, which creates a "community" feel. I don't get that off Muggleborns, because there really isn't some sort of separate Muggleborn culture. *snort* In fact, I see it more with Purebloods, to be perfectly honest.

I think it's hard to make the connection between racism and prejudice against Mugleborns, because in the end, Muggleborns are expected to assimilate, as I think you wrote in a past post. They aren’t actually any different from purebloods, and so it’s expected that they’ll be able to take on wizarding traditions and jobs and views and so forth and just…blend in and leave that “inferior” culture behind. Where I see the real parallel to racism is the prejudice against muggles in general, because there you do have two very different cultures clashing. And as most people have said, all wizards are guilty of this. Overcoming prejudice to me is not about ignoring differences or covering them up; it’s about recognizing them and reconciling. So I think JKR’s metaphor falters and becomes somewhat heavy-handed here.

Um, and I’ve managed to write about nothing in your essay. Sorry about that. Um...yes. On that note, anyway, I do think Draco's set up to be the "good Slytherin", although I don't think Slytherins will ever think in terms of good or bad and Draco's no exception. Forcing him to be good would take him out of Slytherin in a lot of ways, so...I think he'll fight for the right side, and I actually think that right now, there's a lot of evidence suggesting he's a sort of anti-hero. I don't think he'll ever completely get over the Pureblood prejudice because it's too ingrained, but I do think his actions in the next book will put him on the right side.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That's exactly the way I see Muggleborns as well. They're just not in any way analogous to a minority in, say, America for all the reasons you mention. Someone can call a person in the majority a name too, but it's different. Hermione does not relate to her world as a minority--and why should see? Far from being shut out of anything, she's more of an insider than most students. She's even been given pretty much every position of authority that came her way. As you said, it's Ron and the Weasleys who are angered by the term Mudblood, possibly because they do, after all, see a difference where Hermione and Harry don't.

Unfortunately the racism against Muggles seems completely fine by everyone in the story, save for a few token speeches about treating them well by people who also use magic against them.

I don't think he'll ever completely get over the Pureblood prejudice because it's too ingrained, but I do think his actions in the next book will put him on the right side.

I really do hope that's the way it's going--and hopefully not just because I like the character. It really just seems like the "right" way to go. Other versions seem more pointlessly bleak in ways that the series doesn't seem to do. They are, in a very real way, no victory at all--any more than Voldemort's defeat in chapter one of PS was. I wouldn't want to see the Pureblood culture completely destroyed either, after all. I found the destruction of the Black House depressing in OotP. Everyone doesn't have to be exactly the same.

[hansbekhart.livejournal.com]

I think that a good possible analogy to prejudices about Muggles might be the way that people look at other cultures in, say, another country. This is something that frustrates me in my personal life, if I can elaborate for a bit. I've travelled and stayed within China a few times, and what I know of life there and what people in the United States believe it to be can be completely different things. Even my own mother, unfortunately, believed that China is still full of ignorant peasants in blue waving Mao's Little Red Book. It would be kinda difficult to insult someone unfamiliar with racist American slurs, using a racist American slur, but because I live in an ethnically diverse area (San Francisco) I would be able to pick up on all kinds of racist slurs immediately, the same way that Ron was able to.

It seems like we see that complete disjointment in the way that wizards see Muggles: not knowing what a gun is, or how telephones work, and seeing Muggles as basically savages. They might as well be living in another country, you know? No, Muggles don't know that wizards see them as savages, but the prejudice is still very powerful and widespread in the wizarding world.

[pilly2009.livejournal.com]

I did think he had potential in ways that Slughorn really did not.

In the context of this essay (I mean, as far as the issue of rejecting Pureblood ideology from example), I would have to say that if Draco were ever to sit down and think on what it meant to his entire foundation of beliefs that Hermione could kick his arse at almost every turn and that her ideas were good enough for him to borrow for himself...it would still put him on approximately the same level as Slughorn, because I feel like they have been through similar arcs.

Slughorn has had examples that challenge his own ideas of Pureblood Superiority (Lily Evans is probably the prime example in his mind); he described it as a shock to discover that she was Muggleborn, and thought it was "funny how that worked" when he heard about Muggleborn Hermione's abilities. To me, this doesn't read so much as though Slughorn thinks that Muggleborns are inferior, so much as though he thinks they should be inferior, based on the ideology he's used to, and is constantly being surprised that they aren't. Particularly with that last line, it seems as though Slughorn once had his beliefs about Pureblood superiority, and he had been surprised from example. Perhaps he's still being surprised. But he is still prejudiced -- yes, he probably would be happier with all purebloods. He probably would not seek Muggleborn equality, although he's made his allowances. There is, however, a difference between this and say, Lucius Malfoy -- there's a difference between acknowledging that Muggleborns are good, though you prefer purebloods, and relegating all Muggleborns to the status of "worthless"; which is what I think most of the Slytherins at school seem to do, that we've seen. (I'm only taking this from the HBP scene where Blaise swears he would never touch Ginny because of her blood-traitor status -- which, admittedly, may be a different and more serious thing altogether, but still speaks of prejudice -- and the way they do seem to follow Voldemort's ideology.) And these are the two levels I see Draco wavering between, because as far as pureblood ideology goes, these are the two extremes that I think we've ever seen.

When Sirius mentions that lots of people liked the ideas that Voldemort was pimping, although they didn't like his methods once they joined up ... well, we have an idea of the sorts of things Voldemort was suggesting (even if he carried them out rather violently), based on the activities of certain members of the Black family, as well as on Slytherin's stance on Muggleborns: keep them away. Bait them. Have legislatures against them. Basically, keep them away from wizarding society, possibly because they are no good/worthless/maybe dangerous. Drawing back from Voldemort because you have issues against Dark Marks/genocide/whatever-else-he-may-have-had-his-DEs-doing is all well and good, but it doesn't make these sort of ideas any better.

cont'd

[pilly2009.livejournal.com]

And so there's this half of the issue, the idea that Muggleborns are useless and worthless, and should just go away, which Lucius seems to adopt so fluidly, and which Draco probably thinks he is adopting by calling Hermione a Mudblood and reminding her of her worthlessness (only he's not, since he singles her out with this insults and copies all her ideas). And the other half of the issue, the recognition that Muggleborns are intelligent and good wizards/witches, though a wizard may by far prefer his kind. This is more of the side that I've seen from Slughorn. I don't see him as actually thinking that they are inferior, but rather thinking that they should be inferior I'd have a hard time picturing him finding amusement in a "Mudblood" insult, but similarly, I'd have a hard time picturing him actually making an effort to enforce equality. And if this Hermione-Draco arc ends up going anywhere, I really don't see it having further results than this latter side, because Draco is already so deep-rooted in his prejudice that even if he admits that Muggleborns are not worthless and can actually be even more impressive than some purebloods, it's unlikely that he'll be able to meet a Muggleborn and not be a little surprised, even in an "I should have known" way, when they prove themselves to be intelligent and even "superior". Like, I'm finding it hard to believe that any amount of consideration over Hermione's abilities will lead him to look at, say, Colin/Dennis Creevey or Justin Finch-Fletcheley, and not see inferiority, even if he doesn't want to kick them out of school anymore; because an exception may cost him to look at Muggleborns in a different way, but not exactly to look at ALL Muggleborns in the same way as he looked at that exception.

[romeoambiences.livejournal.com]

It appears that many posters are unequivocally stating Draco is incapable of overturning his bigotry. Well...what a pessimistic outlook and while I agree JKR may feel the same way, I don't have to concur. Since she controls the destiny of this character, she will determine his choices in her books. However, I think another author could take this character as we know him to this point (frankly, I don't believe we know him as well as some claim to), and take him in any number of directions which I would find plausible.

Over my lifetime my views on several subjects have radically changed, admittedly in a more gradual manner in most cases, but then I haven't had the hell year Draco went through.

Are there not athiests who have found religion? (I know at least one and that requires a leap of faith rather than admitting what you see before you.)

What's interesting to me is JKR's explanation of why Draco is a good occlumens...that he has this disconnect with so many of his feelings. So if Draco is lying to/or fooling himself, it seems reasonable that the persona he projects is unreliable.

I guess I am having difficulty seeing how the separation of the houses will be resolved if there isn't a change. The break in the school dates back to its foundation.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's why it seems like not having any sort of significant change kind of isn't an ending. I mean, we don't have any real insight into how Draco feels inside; the most we have on the bigotry front seems to be Hermione and stuff he repeats from his father. And yet there's disagreement as to how he really feels about it. Previously I wondered if he wasn't really a true believer--this was often a reasonable reason to think he wouldn't be a DE, because while he'd want to reap the benefits of no Muggleborns, he'd never want to commit to being a DE. But I think HBP was totally believable and showed me more of the kind of boy he was than I could ever see before. Part of it does seem to be a desire to commit himself to something. His family is far more important than Voldemort or bigotry, I think, but he does seem to want to be a man in teh same mold as Harry wants to be.

I have no idea which way he will go, but I definitely don't see his bigotry as something that couldn't change if he was a real person. As I said somewhere above, he's more like a modern kid joining a terrorist hate group than, say, Slughorn who just lives in a bigotted society and didn't question it all his life. JKR may not be basing his story on anyone like this, but it's not unusual for people who leave those groups to actually have a change of heart rather than just pull back on their bigotry to the point where it's not as strong and violent. There are many places in between, and I don't picture Draco becoming Mr. Pro-Muggle who seeks out Muggleborns to be friends with, but it did seem like his story in HBP was about making him think about all the things he's known for believing in. In real life, of course, racism can absolutely change.

[desolatemusings.livejournal.com]

This is a really interesting essay!

To me, Draco's bigotry has always seemed a bit like parroting. When we first meet him in book one, when he tells Harry that they "shouldn't let the wrong sort" into Hogwarts, to me, his comments seem like nothing more than a kid just paraphrasing something he heard an adult say. It's like he eavesdropped on his parents' dinner party conversations and thought to himself, "since mommy and daddy said it, I'll say it too so I can sound more grown up." It's content without context. Now that he's older, no one has yet to really challenge his opinions on muggleborns, so he just keeps on thinking and repeating what he has known since he was little.

The fact that no one has really challenged him on his opinions in a rational way up until now is probably why I think that it's not that far fetched for Draco to change by the end of book VII. I'm not talking about a personality switch (god forbid), I mean grudgingly realizing that muggleborns are just like everyone else and don't need to wiped off the face of the earth.

Maybe i'm weird, but I've always thought that any opinion you borrow from someone else is a lot more malleable than one you form on your own. The fact that muggleborns like Hermione really aren't inferior is right in front of Draco, and he even acknowledges it on some subconscious level by using Hermione's ideas, but he has yet to really address it. And he probably won't unless someone challenges his conscious thoughts.

Besides, simply on a literary level, it wouldn't make sense for any other character to be the one that changes. Draco is Harry's main rival at school, is the main "representative" of the one house that Harry needs to bring over to the side of good, and is pretty much the only one of Harry's peers who's on the "other side" and is accessible to the reader. His character arc is practically begging him to undergo some sort of change. The way I see it, he would either need to have a "downfall" and realize the error of his ways when its too late (but we already have Regulus for that!) or (since one of the themes is unity) he would have to understand "the error of his ways" and change. It would be too unsatisfying and convenient if JKR pulled a minor slytherin character to fill that role. My reaction would be "then why the hell did you do all this work setting up Draco's character?" I would be disappointed if she merely used him as another reason for Harry to be smug and self-righteous.

Anyway, this is a really long way of saying, I agree. I hope you don't mind me randomly commenting on your lj.

[desolatemusings.livejournal.com]

Just to elaborate on what i said before this...

I've always pictured Draco's bigotry as being particularly empty. I can just picture him saying "i hate mudbloods, they're inferior" but then if someone asked him why, it seems like he would only be able to say "well, because i say so." While Lucius, on the other hand, could probably write a book and make several powerpoint presentations, bulletpoints and all, on the topic. So to me, the fact that Draco's bigotry is very empty means that its changeable.

This reminds me of a poem by Taylor Mali (http://www.taylormali.com/index.cfm?webid=15)... Ok, i'm done being cheesy.

[hansbekhart.livejournal.com]

Obviously there you've got Draco actually doing what he wanted to in CoS, helping the Heir kill someone, and there he is linked with Myrtle, another Muggleborn. Draco may not know about her bloodline, but he probably didn't ask either.

I hope I'm not joining the discussion too late, but this did present an interesting idea as I read it. Would Draco have to ask Myrtle if she was Muggleborn? He says that the DEs at the Quidditch World Cup would "be able to tell" that Hermione wasn't wizarding born. I can see the wizarding-born students at Hogwarts being somewhat able to tell who was raised in the wizarding world and who wasn't (differences in speech patterns, perhaps, or exactly the sort of casualness that Draco displays when he says that they shouldn't let the wrong sort into Hogwarts, trusting that that was an acceptable and grown-up-wizard thing to say), but are the differences so obvious that some dude in a mask would be able to tell that a fleeing little girl in a forest was a Muggleborn? (Of course there's always the possibility that Draco was exaggerating the threat, to scare the Trio.) So Draco could have actually known, consciously or not, that Myrtle was Muggleborn.