Amateur HP Psychology

[sistermagpie]

I am not getting any e-mail and I don't know why. They just started coming, but anything from today before the last ten minutes seems to be gone.

I've been reading this book on the Shadow as in Jung (kind of a theme lately) and I'm reading about how the Shadow is all the things you repress in yourself, so you're enraged when you see them in other people. So somebody else could be a terrible person but wouldn't bother you as much because you're not repressing those kinds of things too much. What's horrible about it is I'm reading and knowing that my shadow…

Is post-GoF Ginny Weasley.

She's not the only one, obviously, but oh my god she so is my shadow. When I hear anyone defending her--even reasonably--I am filled with rage. Of course, being who I am (what I repress) I have to try to listen objectively and even admit when the person has a point, because I always want to be accurate and blah blah. Sometimes even I have to defend her because something's off. But what I really want to do is hex the person so that they shut up. Or say something mean that's probably like, "Don't start talking about Quidditch, you'll only embarrass yourself." Or run into the person and put them in the infirmary. This is why it's so strange when people say one must hate Ginny because one wants Harry for herself, because when Harry is liking Ginny it's hard for me to just not see him as a jerk. Like I picture them in their 30s as some dreadful couple I'd avoid. Unfortunately this isn't exactly objective canon analysis, so I can't usually just say that.

The one good thing about this is Lupin is a lot like me in this way--I mean, the kind of stuff he swallows--so maybe he hates her too. I believe when Ginny is throwing her temper tantrum in OotP Lupin quietly shuts the door. For Lupin that's probably the equivalent of smacking her in the face. Poor guy has to live with her.

Oh, the other thing I just read in one essay in the book that we tend to notice and react to Shadow things more in our own gender than the opposite gender--we can ignore stuff when it's in the other gender. I guess that's where fandom's OMG U R JUS JELLUS AND U DON'T LIKE GIRLZ!!1!!1

I was thinking about this in my ballet class, mostly because I have another Shadow problem there, or maybe it's just a pet peeve. Okay, in a dance class you often split into groups to do combinations. There is this woman who always GOES WITH ALL THE GROUPS! In this case there's just the two groups, but it drives me up a tree. The point is to split up so there's room. Yes, she's just one more person, but why the hell does she get to decide that she's the person who gets to dance whenever she wants because everyone else is only going once? What if everybody just decided to do that? (And btw, we're talking about somebody who's in class with some professional dancers--not me--and is herself not even really on the level the class is at. Every time I see her doing it I start stewing. Also she always winds up standing near me so I'm wishing there wasn't somebody so close to me because I don't like people behind me and look--it's her!

Comments

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

I like (perhaps appreciate is a better word) Ginny, too, precisely because it is so interesting to me to try to figure out how she when from Point A (sweet, thoughtful, kind) to Point B (aggressive, mouthy, popular, but oft-times mean). Is it just a phase, like Harry's Capslock of Rage phase in the last book, or is this really who Ginny is growing up to be? What is really going on inside her head? I find her far more interesting than Hermione or Ron, and in some ways even more interesting than Harry.

A couple of things really fascinate me about Ginny Weasley. She is an excellent mimic, she lies really well, and she is determined not to be 'left behind' even if she is too young/otherwise not quite ready. Just how much of her behavior is pretense and lies? How much of her behavior is genuine, and how much is she putting on whatever 'face' she needs to get what she wants. Hard to say. I love characters like this because they are tricky. You can't really predict what they are going to do.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Mimic, liar, and agressive (doesn't want to be left behind). Yup, that's our current Ginny. In fact, in light of that, I've suggested, and had my elder daughter shoot me down, that Ginny got a bit more in the Riddle exchange than just a near-death experience. Don't those traits belong in Slytherin House? It isn't the journey, but the ends, that justify the means.

Of course, being the ultimate Little Sister could have sparked a *normal* desire not to be left behind. Supposedly she has wanted to go to Hogwarts since Bill went, back when she was probably still in the WW's version of Pull-Ups. But, it seems to go beyond that, and completely without canon to boot. She acquits herself well at the Ministry, yet Harry's decided she's in a better position if he breaks it off??? Even sweet, thoughtful, kind Ginny would get upset over that. It's Ginny Sue's reaction to it that I wonder about.

How much of her behavior is genuine, and how much is she putting on whatever 'face' she needs to get what she wants.

Absolutely. From what was said, I'd say a good portion of her dating other guys, flirting around, being the outspoken Wonder Witch, only comes from following Hermione's advice. She was completely being herself when she quietly pined over Harry, so obviously she must change. That she did a good enough job to convince the people who know her, shows her lying abilities. But, I really don't think it's real.

So, what is she going to do? Go back to pretending that it doesn't really matter that Harry left her for his hunt? Get angry and toss a Bat-Bogey in his direction? Find another guy to get Harry's interest sparking again? Lose the luster in her hair and mope around like Tonks? Get fat and start cooking for the Order so she might be around wherever Headquarters is next book so she can get a glimpse of her once and future love? Date Draco? Date Voldemort? Date Minerva? Go to EuroDisney?

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

So, what is she going to do?

She'll follow him, and he'll say something heroic and noble about wanting to protect her, and she'll say something gutsy and tough about being an independent woman who wants to get Voldemort because she believes in the cause and because of the CoS experience, and she's not a little girl anymore, damn it! And he'll be paternal and allow her, and she'll stomp off and while he's fighting DEs, he'll glance over and see her whooping ass.
Wait.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Okay, I guess EuroDisney's for the honeymoon?

All of that, I can believe at this point. But I think the Ginny we briefly saw in PS/SS would have been more gentle than 'gutsy and tough', or touchy, than this. My own personal opinion is that she would follow him, no matter what sort of personality she was given, because I do think that's a core part of her personality. That's why she was Sorted into Gryffindor. Or she'll 'follow' by coming from another direction. She won't avoid the confrontation and sit home by the fire swooning.

I think it's the change from what we were led to expect in the earlier books, and the hoyden we find in the later books, that draws me like someone staring at an ear where a nose ought to be. The creature is still recognizable as human, as Ginny is still the core brave girl, but there's something askew.

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

Mimic, liar, and agressive (doesn't want to be left behind). Yup, that's our current Ginny. In fact, in light of that, I've suggested, and had my elder daughter shoot me down, that Ginny got a bit more in the Riddle exchange than just a near-death experience. Don't those traits belong in Slytherin House?

I don't see these traits as 'belonging' to Slytherine House; on the contrary, they seem to be very 'Gryffindor.' The Slyth idea revolves around ambition, true, but not aggression or lying. If anything, the Slyths would be good at persuasion and negotiating and diplomacy. Gryffindor House is the house of aggressive warrior types. Ginny fits in perfectly.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Now, I see Ginny more as not the brave/foolhardy Gryffindor when she's in New!Ginny mode. We've seen Harry, Ron and Hermione doing the same sorts of things, and the whole feel of the scene is different. At least, to me. Ginny changing her entire personality to get a guy is the ends justifying the means in a sleeker way.

I'm not suggesting that the Sorting Hat got it wrong. So, yeah, those traits aren't Slytherin in the basic sense of the word, they can go to any of the houses. It's the way they're applied that tailors them to the house. And I think that when Ginny puts on her act, she comes off more as a Slytherin-thinking, rather than a Gryffindor-thinking, character.

She definitely is Gryffindor at the MoM. And maybe that's another reason that I personally see her as a curious character. She slips from one house to the other as her goal shifts. IMO, of course. She's mutable.

But, everyone has traits from all the houses. It's just the way they use them, and which comes out on top. DDM!Snape is very brave. But I wouldn't accuse him of being a closet Gryffindor. Harry accessed his Slytherin side in HBP, but he's still Gryffindor. Dumbledore is old enough, wise enough, and educated enough to display each house's traits at one point or another. I tend to see elaborate, yearlong plans to 'trap' a particular boyfriend as being more Slytherin Ambitious than Gryffindor Courageous due to the clandestine nature of those plans.

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

I do think that Ginny is putting on an act; the problem is, I can't tell when she is acting and/or lying, and when she is not. I do think that her reaction(s) to the way that Harry dumped her were all genuine, from her initial anger to her subsequent 'cool' cover up. Beyond that, I cannot truly tell how much of her current behavior is genuine, how much is an act, how much to write off as just a phase she is in, and how much may have been her 'real' personality all along.

Abstractly, that is one of the things about her that fascinates me so much. There is a whole lot going on inside of her head that we are not privy too. I don't think that we can take all of her behavior at face value, but I cannot tell where to draw the line because JKR has not made us privy to Ginny's thoughts. She hasn't made us privy to any of these people's thoughts except for Harry's. Likely, she will never let us be privy to anyone's thoughts, nor will she ever -- as author -- pass a moral judgment about anything that happens. This used to bother me intensely about this series, but now it is the thing that I respect the most about JKR's writing. She has presented her readers with a morally muddy, murky (very scary) world populated by morally ambiguous, highly flawed people... and then left it entirely up to the readers to draw their own conclusions about *everything* and *everyone.*

That's why... (to bring this full circle back to the original topic post) it's perfectly okay for a reader to say, "I hate character X! I wish people would stop trying to tell me that character X is 'good' or justify his/her behavior so that I will like her/him." Just as in the real world, we *don't* know what's going on inside of these peoples' heads to make them act the way that they do. We can only judge them by their words and deeds. We shouldn't be swayed by whether or not Harry likes/dislikes someone. We shouldn't overly romanticism them and turn our own favorite characters into insufferably noble Byronic heroes. I'm beginning to think that this is even why she revealed that Tom Riddle was a complete, psychotic nutjob even as a child. She didn't want readers to ever be able think that they understand (or can justify) who he is and what he has done. We just need to take him at face value and assess his actions, not try to crawl inside his head and psychoanalyze him, or hold any romaticized ideas about him.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Yeah. What you say.

I can't tell when she's lying, or etc. either. Except when it's obvious, as it has been a couple of times (more or less). I do think it isn't her usual personality if someone outside of herself has suggested it. Maybe a direction the character *might* take or she'd be less likely to use it? I didn't take Psychology, and I haven't signed up for it, either.

JKR's writing is good enough to have us defending or sparing no mercy for certain characters as if they were our real friends or foes. Which is pretty good. I haven't defended the Bobbsey Twins like that, and I ate their series for breakfast, lunch and dinner when I was a kid. Now, I've got grandkids and I get completely stunned over Ginny's (to me) OOC behavior. She does come off as obnoxious in the later books. I could put that down to the strain of being the Ginny she thinks Harry wants to see, but that totally negates Rowling's role. She's the Goddess of the piece, the Creatrix. Ginny doesn't do anything at all.

But, that takes all the fun out of it... sometimes. I do like the HP series! And, I suppose, grudgingly, that maybe she's got to do shorthand at some point because the series is supposed to end in one more book and there are bigger fish to fry than Ginny.

Which leaves me with the mental image of Voldemort on a bed of parsley with lemon and tartar sauce.