Deathly Hallows

[sistermagpie]

I feel weird writing this post, because I don't really feel like posting, yet it seems like I should, and then I think--what, do you imagine the public is waiting on pins and needles for your words? Get over yourself!:-D

Anyway, I didn't much like it. Perhaps my feelings will change, but stop here if you don’t want to read any negative stuff. I don't have any rants prepared or anything or want to harsh anybody's buzz. (But misery also loves company!) I was talking to someone who's asked me what I needed from the book, what I wanted to happen or what would have made me satisfied, and the truth is, I don't have an answer. I don't have a list of prescriptive criticism, or think things were done badly, or should have been done a different way.

Well, except one little thing, which couldn't be helped. When that white doe showed up I never doubted for a second it was Snape's Lily!Patronus (cause she's a lady!James!). We'd seen Arthur's and Kingsley's Patronuses talk, and oh, how I wanted that beautiful sparkly stag to come up to Harry and tell him to get this Quest going already in Snape's sarcastic voice.

I've never loved these books the way some do--which should not be taken as a criticism of people who do. I just mean that I know there are people who re-read the books over and over as comfort, and that's not something I ever did. I didn't ever want to re-read to spend time with these people or in this world. There are other books I do feel that way about, books that other people find meh. Basically, I felt like JKR was writing a story of good and evil, and life and death, that resonated with her and satisfied her, and felt like a triumph for her--just not me. So I was a bit left out of the story, objectively even seeing characters doing good, brave things, and just not sharing much in the emotions. More than once I felt like I was seeing more story outline/structure than story so that it seemed very contrived (a couple of times Harry himself seemed to admit it) and made it feel like nothing was building to anything.

What it mostly made me do is go over all the ways I was reading it wrong, making my issues more central than the author really considered them. I don't think I was ever so off as, say, a Harmonian banking on the Hippogriff o'love or anything like that, and some things that happened I did predict (Snape/Lily, obviously, and DDM!Snape). But in general I think I was reading Rowling a bit too much like a Tolkien fan, and maybe too much as a Jungian (not that I'm any expert on Jung, but I was reading from my own idea of his stuff). And I think when JKR said that she was Christian and if she talked about her faith we'd know the ending, I immediately began interrogating from the *wrong* Christian perspective and got that wrong too.

Contrary to what some may have thought at times-or not-I don't hate the good guys. Still don't hate them, just still would not want to spend time with them or re-read the books to spend time with them. The characters I liked the most I think less of now or am just kind of confused by, which is unfortunate. I find Harry affectionately naming his child Albus Severus downright creepy--but that wasn't the first time in the book where that kind of thing happened.

Not sure what I predict fanfic-wise. I wonder if people might not start writing some interesting stuff. I did at one point think how I wanted to take a favorite character and put him in a different story.

Oh, also I've been dreading the epilogue for years, because I've always hated epilogues. Even when I was too young to know the name for them I hated them. Some books I guess can make a case for them being appropriate. HP is really not one of them that I can see. There was no reason I could see for needing to see these people married with children. The one good thing I read about it was after it was leaked, before I read it, and I read a comment where someone said the epilogue read like any cliché H/G fic...or any cliché post-war H/D fic.;-)

Comments

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

H/D is the one thing that could possibly have saved that fucking epilogue. I mean, what was the point. I did find the Albus-child affecting, but it was partly just exhaustion and overwhelm. I was hoping, very wrongly, that the epilogue would be *funny*, and contain lots more future information about characters delivered in a fun way. OBHWF? Is worth an epilogue?

I think she just did it because she hasn't named anyone "Rose" yet.

As to the rest, I enjoyed the first 500-600 pages quite a bit, but I was shocked at how steadily and consistently I felt let down by the last 5 or so chapters- everything after they got back to Hogwarts, basically, although I did somewhat enjoy Snape's memories. And I *did* expect it to end exactly the way it did, in terms of Harry sacrificing himself voluntarily, talking to the dead, and then coming back to "live" instead of "survive." But... well, I have more to say. But I left feeling depressed. It's not like the whole series was like that, and yet it was consistent, also.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think she just did it because she hasn't named anyone "Rose" yet.

LOL! Totally!

And yeah, I too had pegged Harry agreeing to die and then surviving after being with the dead for a bit, but it just wasn't uplifting or anything.

[kahran042]

Well, there was a Rose Zeller mentioned at the Sorting in book 5...

[grubby-tap.livejournal.com]

Epilogue was eeewie. Ever read the last chapter of Clam Chowder's Harry Potter Cliche Catalogue? It was EXACTLY like that.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! Fandom gets it right again!

[jakwezst.livejournal.com]

I'm sort of relieved to read this!

I do believe that if *you'd* liked it I would have felt even more alone than I've been feeling since Friday night.

As an admitted Snape fan I really expected there to be more of a ...protest...from my corner of fandom. I was shocked to the core by the positive reactions to the book. Okay, I confess I have never been a fan of this universe and it's true I cannot see the appeal of the books.

I stumbled into fandom, found I liked it there, and have simply sat and watched my fellow fen go nuts for each successive tome. Fanfic is my thing , meta my other thing, but I'm a little afraid to express my opinions in this fandom because I get the impression - forgive me if I'm wrong about this - that the majority of the highly, highly intelligent people reading these books do not even begin to see what I see as issues here.

As I said in response to another reaction post I feel like I've been the victim of a confidence trick - not just with Snape, though for sure he is actually a VERY good illustration of what I mean - but the entire series!

It seems to me (and yeah people will scoff and say 'duh!' to this) that she set up the story to be a certain way and never deviated from this over the course of the 20 odd years writing. I suppose for some people that not only seems self-evident, but also only right and proper. Whereas for me it illustrates the very thing that I see as being the central problem here - writing to an agenda, an agenda that may have been huge for you when you were a single mum in her twenties but even a few years later isn't nearly quite as...large anymore. I am hesitant to say that I think the author has issues that come across clearly in her books, but the author has issues which come across clearly in her books! And I think that it's really, really weird to STILL be eagerly illustrating these issues 20 some years later. It's like when she won't allow Snape to let go of his Lily obsession it's because she too can't let go of certain things. Insert here that I suspect that Snape/Lily was a stand -in for the author and her own issues with revenge and love. ( I have my theories about this, but won't bore you with them - also they might be offensive to people who'll assume I'm author bashing. But if I see an author's hand obscuring my view of the goings on well then I'm going to *notice* it and most likely ask for my money back!) And please to forgive me Ms Rowling but how can I help but psychoanalyse you when you practically *hand* me the tools so to do? And I don't *want* to get personal here, but sheesh Harry Potter *is* personal. I feel like I've been given a front row seat on this woman's personal fantasies and thanks, but no thanks. Do. Not. Want.

Harry Potter is the creation of someone with an obvious agenda and it shows - really shows. Clearly she must have struck a real nerve judging by the popularity of the books, but it strikes a different sort of nerve for me.

It's pretty obvious that the story could easily have been told in one book (except fantasy seems to require a trio of volumes, doesn't it?) and still be a pretty good story. I think so anyway. The fact that she chose to spread it out over 7 books is where it begins to fail for me. I can honestly well imagine enjoying the book(s) more if there were fewer books to enjoy (!) (The message may or may not have been palatable but at least it would have been digested - or spat out - in one sitting!

I said more than I meant to and far less too. But with this thing it's almost a case of both where do you start and how can you stop once you've started!!!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad you're relieved-I know just what you mean about thinking uh-oh, I'm going to be even more alone.

I'm surprised at the Snape response too. I've talked to different ones--some, like me, think that he was basically really shrunken. He was a DE obsessed with Lily Potter, and that gave Dumbledore leverage to use him as a double agent. But it didn't do much to change him, and he didn't care about anybody else but Lily and his chosen way to love her after death through helping Harry. Some feel that once he switched sides he got better, but I thought I thought it was only marginally so. I think it improved his behavior, definitely, but it was more like training him into different habits rather than really changing him. Meanwhile he was probably encouraging the rest of Slytherin in all the areas he himself could no longer feel free to just indulge.

I would be interested in seeing your psycho-analytical take, even knowing it's pretty unfair. But I know stuff I've written has turned out to be really revealing that way, and in a book like this where it's such a hodge-podge with the one thing tying it all together being the author's ideas, it's hard not to see patterns.

But I know from fandom that a lot of people don't have the problems I do. Those people who for years have been telling me my issues were kind of stupid really do seem to have been on the same page as the author. Signs I thought were there telling me that I was supposed to be thinking about them mostly turned out to just be pointing to plot points.

The message may or may not have been palatable but at least it would have been digested - or spat out - in one sitting!

Oh yeah--no years going by to put more into it before you find out you don't want to do that!

[mxtape.livejournal.com]

(Butting my head in via daily_snitch, because I am ill-mannered like that.)

It took me a bit to figure out why the epilogue rubbed me the wrong way, and maybe it's a petty complaint given that it's JKR's 'verse. I can accept that she needed to end it for herself as much as for us. But I didn't want her to.

It frustrates me that JKR couldn't leave us Harry as we knew him. That's how I want to imagine him - a 17-year-old who's just learning how the world works and how to be brave and who has all these amazing, developing components to him. I wanted her to leave us with that, because that is enough, that is who Harry is to us. He's a character we've grown with and to suddenly jump ahead and delete all the possible futures he could have in favor of the most normative one bothers me. I want Harry to have more adventures, not know that 19 years on his scar never bothers him again and all is well. He's too rich a character to just pin down that way.

And that's I guess what it comes down to - as a fan, the 'verse isn't concluded for me and I don't want it to be. I'm a fan because I want to imagine and play and contribute my readings to the 'verse and the epilogue feels like a negation of that privilege, like a top-down decision that the 'verse it now closed, move along. Whether or not it is how I imagine Harry ending up is somewhat irrelevant, even. It's more that I don't want to know how Harry ends up. I want the privilege to imagine, and I wish JKR had given us that.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Like I said I've always hated epilogues for that kind of reason, definitely. Especially in a story like this where Harry is fighting for the right to have a life that's his own, that he can do what he wants with, that's about freedom...why pin it down for the next 20 years?

Reposted to add something

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you posted! I'm just starting to put my thoughts about book 7 into order, and one of the first things I thought of was to check your LJ to see if you'd written anything. (Personally, I feel neither elated nor downcast; I just feel flat and a bit depressed.)

Basically, I felt like JKR was writing a story of good and evil, and life and death, that resonated with her and satisfied her, and felt like a triumph for her--just not me.

That's very well-put, and I think I agree with you. Actually, I think I've been feeling that way ever since HBP--it may even have begun as early as GoF--and it makes me sad to have lost the connection I used to feel with the series.

But in general I think I was reading Rowling a bit too much like a Tolkien fan, and maybe too much as a Jungian (not that I'm any expert on Jung, but I was reading from my own idea of his stuff). And I think when JKR said that she was Christian and if she talked about her faith we'd know the ending, I immediately began interrogating from the *wrong* Christian perspective and got that wrong too.

Could you expand on this part? I'm curious as to what parts of your reading came from Tolkien and Jung, and how they clash with Rowling.

I started reading Harry Potter before I'd read Tolkien, but I really got interested in Tolkien's philosophy and the workings of his world. I'm wondering if this may have influenced my expectations and interpretation of Harry Potter as well.

The characters I liked the most I think less of now or am just kind of confused by, which is unfortunate.

You too? I haven't cared much for most of my former favorites for the last couple of books, and it's left me feeling kind of nonplused about the series as a whole. To refer back to your last post, I can either try "appropriating" (but I'll feel like I'm cheating and probably won't be able to keep up the illusion) or I can attempt to "appreciate" the way they're written instead of the way I hoped they would be written (but I doubt I'll be able to keep up my enthusiasm and I'll probably just drift away).

Re: Reposted to add something

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Could you expand on this part? I'm curious as to what parts of your reading came from Tolkien and Jung, and how they clash with Rowling.

I'll probably wind up saying a lot of things that are totally wrong about both, but here's what I was thinking of.:-) With Tolkien it was just like his central premise that I love, where Frodo is carrying the One Ring and can't ever succeed but agrees to try--and in the end it's his compassion to Gollum that makes things work out. I thought that meant the Slytherins would have to be reached out to--which wouldn't mean they'd have to all become redeemed or whatever, but Gollum was treated with compassion and dignity even when he didn't either. There was the feeling that he was a victim of the ring too. In general I guess it's just the focus on compassion as being the most important virtue--compassion based on truly understanding that other people have their own stories and are like us. Not just that you're good with scared children and will save the lives of even the unworthy people.

In terms of Jung, it seemed like obviously Slytherin was the Shadow house--the house that embodies all the qualities that are "bad" and so repressed. In order to be healthy, you have to integrate with your shadow, and that means confronting it, seeing it as part of yourself. Then you can see that its qualities are positive as well as negative, and have been part of you all along. This story had exactly the opposite, where the Slytherins who were sort of okay were so because they took on the wanted traits, and those who didn't were completely rejected. It was so hard for me to get my mind about the battle starting with the Slytherins leaving! And in an interview JKR basically endorses this, saying that the noble gesture is sort of letting them be part of the school at all, which they do out of this Dumbledorian dream that "one day" they'll have wholeness. They're not working for it at all.

I think I might have a similar reaction to you to canon that I can't really get along with, exactly. I just don't know if I'd really be able to take what I want and make it work for me.

RE:Big confused post, it has to be I am sorry for Snape!

[wolfsbaine.livejournal.com]

I am mindful that because it is the end of the books my objectivity may be blighted by the fact that it might be easier to live with the end of the books if I don't like the last two.

However that said and with a heavy heart I agree with all that has been said here and would like to add a thought or two, even though I haven’t finished reading the book, (I always read the end first) I can see that it is heading for the romantic idealised twoddle that I feared learked just below the surface.

There are things in this book that wont be acceptable even to children, who do not tend to allow adults to wash over injustice and the grey areas of life, they may listen and understand but as children do they forgive or do they hold people to account and respect them for what they are? A child’s sense of right and wrong is tied very much to their emotions. Emotions, JK has already made clear are a bad thing unless you have them in check, that is a lot for the average adult to do and I include her in that, let alone a child or young adult. Most of them aren't really sure where half those emotions come from, so to assume they should be able to master the rationalization needed to examine them before acting on them is unfair and then she throws that rational approach out of the window and mitigates Snape by his being in love with Lily, this would appear to contradicting all she said about Choice.

From my reading of this, as with all her male characters she emasculated Snape, turning him from a character who had strength into a man of pathetic self obsession, she didn’t even have the decency to have the man do what he did for ambition and even though I have hated Snape from day one, even I felt sorry for what she had done to him, not only did she cut his balls off metaphorically she left the man no name, she removed any respect from him and even the greatest of villains should be respected for the dedication to duty, how else do you guard against them if you do not respect them.

Equally after all the claims from fandom of her enlightened approach to things, she showed Dumbledore used Snape (Ok so I always said DD used everyone, why else was Sirius locked up for all that time and DD do nothing about it, because it suited his plan) and personally I can live with the ends justifying the means, but that also negates things that she has said we shouldn’t do, suddenly hanging the DE from hell from a tree so we get to see his draws doesn’t look to so bad does it and trying to kill him becomes a service to humanity, because if Snape had died none of this would have happened, equally it might have meant Voldemort wouldn’t have been defeated and then we get into fate and pre-determination.

And sadly I have to do this is two posts sorry...

Re: Big confused post, it has to be I am sorry for Snape!

[wolfsbaine.livejournal.com]

Also in these times of mistrust in religion to show Slytherin house in a light where nearly all aren’t intent on evil, when clearly Salazar Slytherin would be identified with as being of Middle Eastern persuasion and at the time that his house was set up would have been a Saracen is not thought through well enough, she needed a gentle prod from a good beta. She also can’t have it both ways; Regulus could not have been a good if no one good comes from the house of Slytherin. But just by the law of averages there had to be some who went into Slytherin house who was not bad.

In several incidents JK negates her messages from the other books with regard to such things a choice, inclusively and not judging people on anything but the facts. In Kreacher’s Tale we have one of the worst examples where she delivers a sermon cloaked in Hermione’s garb not only has she stopped being the objective observer but she offers no solution, as Hermione launches into a crass discourse on slavery in which she denies those who she wishes to free the right to chose to be bad and before someone jumps on me I do not condone slavery but nor do I simplify it as crassly as it is done here.

In all this is JK updating Lewis, not Tolkien because Tolkien had a tighter rein on his work; JK has become sloppy in hers’.

I have so many thoughts running through my head, but this is your journal and I have hogged enough of it. So I Just wanted to say I have to agree with you the book has left me wondering, what happened to the books I have been reading and could someone please come back and finish those because this is a poly juice potion soaked book, that should go by the title of Harry Potter and the Bleeding Obvious Ending.

[mondegreen.livejournal.com]

I'm too exhausted and numb to say anything but this:

The most disappointing thing of the entire book? Draco is going bald. BALD. It tore my heart to pieces.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hey, most men's hairline would have had to have changed by 40--Harry just didn't mention his and Ron's because he sees the two of them all the time. Ron's the one who seems to have the family gene for it, isn't he?

Oh, and yes, wtf with that Luna thing?

[blankcanvas.livejournal.com]

and then I think--what, do you imagine the public is waiting on pins and needles for your words?

This is funny to me because I actually was waiting for a post from you. I checked right after I finished the book yesterday. :) I almost always agree with you and I wanted to see if you disliked it too.

I kind of got spoiled for the book about a week before it came out (grr, stupid jerks in ohnotheydidnt). I thought that might have ruined the book for me but the more I reflect on it, the more I think the book just wasn't my cup of tea. I think a little bit of the reason I disliked it is the same reason I don't really like the Goblet Of Fire movie. They're both really... patchy. Idk if that makes sense but everything in the seventh book seemed a bit random. The plot took a different turn every chapter or so and I was just like, "oh... okay." I thought it was uneven and... (this sounds bitchy) not very well-written. And I really wasn't expecting that because I just re-read the sixth book (easily my fave) and was excited at how nicely the plot unfolded and kept surprising me. I kept guessing what was going to happen in book seven, which sucks. Most of the things that didn't surprise me were hella random (and not in any kind of a good way).

I actually like epilogues but I didn't like the one in this book. It was patchy and random like the rest of the book.

It was just kind of "meh" for me but it could have been worse, I guess. I (accidentally) read a spoiler before the release that said that Harry would commit suicide to kill Voldemort. Thank god that spoiler was fake because that would have been laaaaame.

I didn't ever want to re-read to spend time with these people or in this world. There are other books I do feel that way about, books that other people find meh.

Out of curiosity, what books do you like to read like that?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I thought the same thing about the plot. There were a lot of times where I felt like stuff was just happening to have something happen, to make a point about the values going on, or sort of have the characters enact things that would develop them. Like Lupin's going back and forth about Tonks. I got the feeling that was something that sounded good in the outline, what with having him finally overcome his reticence and die happy. But it felt like nothing more than that--not something organic, and not something that built anywhere in the plot, because basically Lupin was just having this stuff on his own, and then Harry told him off, and then he went away and changed his mind. Even more so with Ron's suddenly deciding he had to leave, and then being away, and then coming back at a handy moment, getting the sword and literally slaying his demons. So much of the plot felt like the characters were following an outline--and with some characters I couldn't even really follow it. Like where Lupin was following what felt like a contrived pattern the Malfoys seemed mostly like plot devices.


Out of curiosity, what books do you like to read like that?

Well, like my favorite books as a kid were The Dark is Rising, which plenty of people don't like or just think are boring. I like spending time with hobbits-it Crickhollow chapter makes me really happy.:-) I Capture the Castle. I don't actually have too many books I read over and over. But I've never re-read the HP books for pleasure in that way. The fanfics I get pleasure out of are very different from the books.

[samaranth.livejournal.com]

how I wanted that beautiful sparkly stag to come up to Harry and tell him to get this Quest going already in Snape's sarcastic voice

Snape’s voice was sadly lackly from almost the entire story – even the final revelation of his memories was through the eyes of a third person. I agree that he was somehow diminished by the way his part of the story played out.

The characters I liked the most I think less of now or am just kind of confused by, which is unfortunate.

After 24 hours reflection, this is pretty much where I am too. The overarching morality that JKR is trying to explore has always been slightly suspect, but it seemed to me that there was hope (particularly after HBP) that it would be straightened out somehow. But now it’s set in concrete, and it doesn’t make sense. So there’s not going to be the realisation, or the even the redemption that I thought the story was heading towards. This was just more of the same. Same old, same old. That’s the disappointing part, for me, that there was so much potential that was ignored.

Snape at least had his moment in the sun. Lupin I can barely recognise. I kept waiting for Draco and Harry to at least speak to each other, but there was nothing at all.

I’m relying that there wil be fan fic.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, never has it been more brought home to me that I really was "reading a different book" than the one the author thought she was writing. I was talking to someone about Harry's use of Unforgivables, and wasn't that in conflict with his being a Christ-figure. And I said you know, I think I get it now, that it's not. Courage is the most important virtue, so excesses of courage (like bullying bad people or violence) is not a problem. That's why people who love those bits have always been happiest with the books. And at first she didn't like that answer, though feared it was true. And then she said she'd already seen that Harry's jokey words about using Crucio were already many peoples' favorite lines--yes, that really is where the heart beats there.

It's a funny arc, actually, that where many of us thought Harry's near-use of them was a sign of danger, and that he would naturally never use them because he was pure, turned out to just be an arc about Harry growing up and using them himself, because what adult wouldn't?

[playscape.livejournal.com]

Just dropping by from friendsfriends for a few random thoughts...

Aside from the Epilogue and a few other things I overall liked DH. However:

While reading DH it felt like I was reading about people I didn't know--perhaps because I am a re-reader of the series and I know the other books so well--but it just didn't feel like "home" to me if that makes any sense. In a lot of ways the book was a very uncomfortable read, with all the tent-pitching and arguing and being led into traps week after week, with no Hogwarts and no Peeves and McGonagall and sneering Snape. The book wasn't silly or very funny, and the other books take time to have a lot of light-hearted humor, so that in itself made DH a somewhat comfusing, whatthehell kind of read.

I did love Snape in this. I can see how expectations would have been very high for this story line, but the tragic nature of how it unfolded and ultimately ended was very fitting imho. He was not recognized in life for his heroism, died a spy's death, and yet still managed to change everything, beginning with asking Voldemort to spare Lily. What I really missed was Harry's prcoessing of this information after The Prince's Tale...we get nothing. I felt we really missed the big, Snape?! Loved? My MOTHER?!? I was WRONG about him!? If he hadn't loved her she would not have been given the chance to die for me, and therefore I would be dead....? There was no pause for reflection there.

Also, I fully excpected a Harry/Draco resolution--conversation included!--but, alas. Same with house unity. No revolution, so resolution. Naming your kid after Snape in the Epilogue does not count, imo.

But finally, I too hated the epilogue and see no reason why it had to be included. It was just a big, resounding WTF. Readers' imaginations can do a much better job with these characters' fates, and for Rowling to tell us that this is what happens to our beloved good guys YES THEY'RE STIL MARRIED WITH CHILDREN 19 YEARS LATER, SO DON'T EVEN TRY left a bad taste in my mouth. I will just have to try and forget that I ever read it.

Something I loved: I felt completely vindicated when the true nature of Dumbledore's chatacter was revealed. Finding out that he was so Machiavellian was wonderfully creepy. THANK GOD he wasn't the kindly, benevolent old man many people thought he was. In many ways Snape was a better human being.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

I totally agree - especially with the Dumbledore part. My disappointment chifly stems from the fact that it's the only Turnaround she's given us. I mean there have been heaps and heaps of instances where Slytherins and Gryffindors do the exact same thing but are judged very differently for it. I started to be worried after HBP, but as everybody kept saying it really was just the first half of the last book, I essentially clung to the hope we were still in the part of a detective novel where all the false clues are displayed. And then - they were supposed to be true! Umbridge disfiguring Harry's hand - bad. Hermione disfiguring Marietta's face - good. Draco's Crucio - bad. Harry's crucio - sign of overboarding chivalry. And so on and so on. What really bothers me is that JKR menat this as a moral tale and thought about it for years. Only to come up with this downright double-moral (is that a word? Not sure). I guess I'll have to work through that feeling of being let down before I can enjoy the good parts of the book that undoubtedly were there...

[kylandra.livejournal.com]

I don't think I was as disappointed, since I had pretty much given up on Rowling telling the story I wanted, or having the priorities I had. As I said in my post, it's not my choice ending to the series, but I think it's the best I could have expected Rowling to write given her storytelling style and priorities.

I really wish we had more Draco and Snape as well, and ditto on the lameness of the followthrough on House unity. I know she had Snape be good (at least in the Rowling concept of goodness), Slughorn fought with everyone, and at the end Harry told his kid that it was okay if he got into Slytherin, but it felt kind of throw away, and then yes, now that you remind me, there was Dumbledore's weird "sort too early" comment.

Also, I totally agree that I wasn't thrilled about the Snape/Lily. I would have much preferred him to have worked for Dumbledore out of remorse for what he did overall, and a changed world view.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's funny that after all these years I'm really only now starting to get how little JKR probably really did understand all the Slytherin love. Because the one thing that was so clear to me in this book was their character, how they were so limited. Harry's line to his kid sounded like pure lip-service to me, showing what a great Dad Harry was. Of course that kid wasn't going to be in Slytherin--he aleady feared it, so couldn't wind up there. Some people have told me they think the relationship with Slytherin is better at the end of the book, and I don't really get that. Why would the events of this story improve their reputation? If anything I felt like the house seemed far worse than it had at the beginning.

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks for posting!

It's interesting to read your thoughts and everyone's reactions, and to see that I'm not alone in mine. I, too, read way more into the plot than JKR had intended. I, too, was waiting for house unity and all sorts of revelations about how people's upbringings and circumstances are what make them who they are and have compassion and blah, blah etc.

But, no. Apparently some characters are just good and others are just weak and bad. I don't find the struggle between these types of inherently good and bad characters to be a compelling story, and I have to wonder, who can?

Dumbledore explains that Harry's can be the new messiah because he remained selfless and able to love despite his horrible loveless, neglected, sequestered in a cupboard upbringing. Whereas someone like Snape is apparently bad because he grew up angry and messed-up because of his loveless, neglected and sequestered in a slum upbringing (I think, I'm not really sure what message the author was going for with the "Prince's tale").

But really those two are coming from completely different stories. Harry's "awful" upbringing is cartoony and played for laughs. There is no real trauma in it. It's funny, and nowhere near what it's really like to grow up in those circumstances. Where as poor Snape got stuck in the (slightly more realistic) Dickinsonian version of the loveless family. How can those two even be compared?

I used to get annoyed when readers cried about how awful the Dursley's treated Harry - because it was obviously not written to be taken seriously. It was exaggerated and played for laughs. But yet -- that is now supposed to be what makes Harry extraordinary? Regarding one's childhood trauma with humourous, ironic detachment instead of reacting in an honest emotional way is what makes a person good?

That's just stupid...

Thank You!!

[(Anonymous)]

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who sees this problem. Harry's upringing was for laughs and Snape's was not. It just buggles my mind that Rowling seems to feel that being affected by things that have happened to you is so wrong you deserve to be hated. Abused children can't help being unpleasant but they still deserved to be loved.

And don't get me started on Ginny. What happened to her during her first year of Hogwarts would have affected her for the rest of her life. She was lonely and put her trust in a diary. It betrayed her and took over her body for periods of time. But, of course, she still managed to become pretty and popular and not have a single problem from that!

The moral message of these books seems to be he one I learned in high school: Shut Up And Act Normal Because No One Cares

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

I was talking to someone who's asked me what I needed from the book, what I wanted to happen or what would have made me satisfied, and the truth is, I don't have an answer.

I've been thinking, and reading, and participating, here. I just sat down to relax, and it suddenly hit me: one thing that irks me about this canon resolution.

Link:
http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Genesis+34&version=9

This is the story of Dinah, daughter of Jacob (son of Isaac, son of Abraham) and Leah (his less-favored wife). Dinah made the acquaintance of Shechem, son of the prince of a nearby city, and they *ahem* got acquainted. Her family, consisting of more brothers than anything, were upset. Shechem's father, Prince Hamor, made a bargain where his son will marry Dinah, because his son is just so in love with her. Jacob & Co. agreed, on the condition that Hamor and all the males in his city get circumcised. Hamor agreed, and the men of his city are circumcised.

Quote: "And it came to pass on the third day, when they were sore"... just circumcised, you know... two of Jacob's sons sneak into the town and slaughter them all. They took the widows, the children, the goods, everything. Jacob didn't like it, but nothing happened. Chapter 36: The towns all around them were afraid of them (duh!), so they left, cleaned their clothes, made sacrifices, and God absolved them.

I hated this story. I HATED it. The Good Guys got away with murder, because they were the Chosen. I so did not want to see this in HP! But, I did. Oy, I did. I had a crisis of faith when I first read this story, and have never had the same relationship with religion since.

And lo were the Slytherins of Hamor's people, and thus were they royally slain. SD 1:1

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

Oh my God - I never thought about that Bible story, but it is spot on! That's one of the biggest complaints about DH: there were heaps of occurrences in the books before where Gryffindors did the exact same thing as Slytherins but were not called upon it. I thought that simply COULDN'T be chance but must be intended and thus waited for Harry and his friends to realize they had no call for righteousness - but no. Cruciatus for ungallant behaviour just shows you are extra chivalrous, it seems...

Hello!

[(Anonymous)]

Long-time lurker, first time commentator! I just thought I'd say that I completely agree with pretty much everything you've written here!

I personally wasn't all that disappointed with DH, I think, because I hadn't expected to have a very positive reaction in any case. To be honest, I never had extremely high expectations for the series to begin with; but I am quite interested in the HP-verse, for which I think fandom can take most of the credit. :-) When I first read the HP books as a little kid, I wasn't terribly fascinated with them; I thought they were cute and fun, but also simplistic and not tremendously substantial. I wound up stumbling into fandom fairly late, between OotP and HBP, but when I did, all of a sudden everything became a lot more interesting and nuanced! I found myself thinking more about characters and events that hadn't really registered with me because the books had sort of glossed over them, and it was at that time that I started thinking (and I still do!) that the HP-verse can be quite an interesting one for fans to play around in; it's a very expansive sort of world, but a lot is left vague by the author, and it's fun to fill in the gaps! For that reason, I tend to enjoy good HP fanfic a lot, even moreso than the actual books; particularly since I tend to prefer characters and storylines that JKR herself doesn't seem to want to invest much time or effort in. I sort of view the books not as the be-all and end-all of the HP-verse, but rather as springboards for an increasing number of ideas that fandom could explore. The more the better, really! So, although I was annoyed by the simplistic way that--for instance--HBP was told (all right, I confess the Chest Monster played a really fundamental role in turning me off it ;-)), and I didn't even particularly like the book itself, it was one of my favorite books of the series just because it provided so many interesting situations that fandom could take and twist around in far more interesting ways than JKR could, given her commitment to her preestablished (and very linear) storyline. I think the reason why HBP ultimately grew on me was the sheer number of ideas it made available to the readers, rather than way it actually explored any of those ideas.

DH, on the other hand, is the final book of the series, and so it was more focused on wrapping up previous loose ends than on providing anything new (it did introduce some new ideas/plot devices, like the Hallows, but then made sure to give us closure on them, too). It followed the pattern that I sort of expected it to from the beginning, but the difference is that it felt like a definite end, and thus deliberately avoided leaving any cliffhangers or major dangling plot points that fandom could rework and play with. It was disappointing because it was an anticipated and entirely predictable end to the series and, especially with that married-with-children bit at the end (even I didn't see that coming! It was sort of too schmaltzy for me to believe possible!! ;-)), like a shutting down of all of the more interesting stories that had sprung up after the sixth book. In a way, I never really wanted the story to end, because I wanted to ride out several more (and far more interesting) stories I had found in fandom, and I can't help but think that this new "canon" ending will discourage people from coming up with alternate storylines. So with that in mind, I can sort of understand why I feel a bit let down with this one, and why it's hard to come up with specific complaints. It isn't a problem with the writing style (which I actually think was a bit better than that of its predecessor, save for that godawful epilogue), or even with the narrative arc the story took (I can't say it was a disappointment per se, since it followed pretty much the same pattern found in previous books, and I can't say the ending surprised me very much). To me, it isn't really a glaring and specific error with the book itself; it's more the fact that the book exists, if you know what I mean :-D

Anyway, I'm sort of new to posting, so my thoughts come out a bit muddled; but hopefully they make some sort of sense!

--Mari

Re: Hello!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

H-thanks for posting! It's really interesting to me how different my reactions were post-HBP and DH. Mainly because HBP gave me a totally different idea for where certain things were going--as I said somewhere above, a lot of stuff I thought was thematic turned out to just be setting up plot points. Particularly the type of development I thought the heroes needed for the final battle was the opposite of what it turned out they needed, so maybe for me it felt like there was no development. What saved Harry in DH was exactly what he had and what saved him in PS/SS.

[woman-ironing.livejournal.com]

Er, I enjoyed the book immensely. (Though at one point it did seem it should be called 'Carry on Camping'.) After HBP the story seemed to be closing up, narrowing down. DH exploded. It was a story not a theory. The two most problematic characters, Dumbledore and Snape, showed themselves to be human, after all, and in the most dreadful ways. I wanted Draco to come through, but he didn't. The little shit remained a little shit. Well, JKR had him remain so. She gave him chances and didn't have him take them up. That's her characterisation of Draco and it's harsh but credible.

I didn't want to read the epilogue; I just couldn't get my head round the bathos. Albus Severus is an awfully cruel joke for Harry to play on his little boy!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm not sure what you mean about it being a story not a theory.

[latxcvi.livejournal.com]

My reaction overall was more generally positive than yours, because I liked a lot of the stuff surrounding the Gryffindor trio and their inner circle, but when it comes to how the significant Slytherin characters were treated/portrayed, I found myself annoyed when I got to the end.

I'm deeply ... ambivalent about how Snape and, to a lesser extent Draco, were treated. With Snape, I like the reveal that he loved Lily; I've always been cool with that as a possibility. I'm less sanguine, though, that the fact of that love truly redeemed him. For me, it seemed like Snape's story was less about a person becoming good through the power of love and more about a person thwarting bad because of love. Those two things are not synonymous with each other nor do they occupy the same segment of the moral spectrum. I didn't get the sense that Snape actually regretted his Death Eater ways so much as he regretted the fact that those ways *got Lily killed*. If she'd survived that fateful Halloween in Godric's Hollow, I seriously doubt Snape would have been Dumbledore's - or anyone's - man but his own. Snape's love for Lily humanizes him, but I don't actually think it *ennobled* him; he's protecting Harry out of a sense of penance, not because he believes that it's the right thing to do, or that toppling Voldemort is a good end. In a way, Narcissa's actions at the end of DH are a good mini-parallel of how I read Snape's overall story: she doesn't lie to Voldemort to save Harry or because she thinks Voldemort should be stopped. She does it to protect her child. Now, I love that like cake and I think it makes Narcissa even more interesting, but it doesn't necessarily make her *good*. I like it from the perspective of adding layers to
the characters of Snape and Narcissa, but I think I was expecting a revelation of true redemption with Snape and I don't think that's what we got. On one hand, it's nervy of Joanne to thwart those expectations the way she did -- Snape's love for Lily not 'saving' him IS nifty because it's so against the grain. OTOH, a part of me wanted Snape to truly *be* heroic, as opposed to just ... really cunning and in eternal mourning.

With Draco, I feel like there was a chance there to give him an ounce of genuine character, but it turns out that the whole point of Dumbledore immobilizing Harry during the Astronomy Tower scene in HBP was less about trying to show Harry that there was a person there he could try reaching out to to possibly foment a true uniting of the Houses, and more about making sure Harry understood the secrets of the Elder Wand. Now, I love the *plot* intricacy of that and how she wove it together; it's the characterization aspect that fell somewhat flat for me and left me feeling vaguely disappointed. I wasn't expecting the kind of heroic ascension with Draco that I was with Snape, but I was expecting to see that he'd grown *somewhat* in the year and a half Voldemort made his and his family's life hell and he didn't at all. I didn't need him to be super-brave or suddenly self-sacrificing, but some acknowledgment that his family had backed the wrong horse, or, at least that Voldemort wasn't a reasonable figurehead for the pureblood agenda, would have been nice.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I was enjoying the book in the beginning, and in the middle it really got bogged down for me, unfortunately. But I was still expecting a bang up ending--which I didn't get. Oh well.

I was reading Sydney's response and she talked about how strong the author's influence is in the book and I agree--and unfortunately a lot of times--for me--I was a little too aware of it and it made it artificial. This happened in different ways, but with the Slytherins I almost felt like it was sometimes just clamping them down to make sure the point was made that they were only this and nothing more. And maybe that's my expectations, but I honestly feel as an editor that this wasn't something I just brought to the table myself. Perhaps if we'd seen more of them it would have made more sense, but I wound up feeling like they were rather jerkily done so, as I said, often they'd show up and I'd be surprised and confused--oh, he's here? What's going on with him now? Huh?

[fiera-316.livejournal.com]

HPandDH was really funny to me. I should probably mention that I really did like the book, more than I have actually liked an HP book since the fourth one. And I've been trying to get my head around exactly why I liked it so much, and why I wasn't disappointed by the way things turned out in it, when both OotP and HBP had me expecting an entirely different turnout, that I even wrote essays and participated in conversations about.

I remember commenting elsewhere recently about reading the books as a fan, or as another writer trying to appreciate themes and continuation. I really only started reading the HP books after GoF came out, and when I entered the fandom (shortly before OotP came out), the first place I frequented was the SugarQuill; where everyone's fannish reading of the books was actually quite similar to my own (minus, you know, the almost-complete lack of Ginny), and an ending like shown in DH was all but predicted. Of course, when OotP came out, my readings of the books kind of changed, became more serious, which continued into HBP when I expanded out of the SugarQuill area of fandom.

But I've come to the conclusion that I'm not particularly surprised, or disappointed by DH because, although OotP and HBP had me believing we were headed for an entirely different resolution, DH's resolution was actually something I had seen after GoF, and would have continued to see if not for the prior two books. It's why I'm not that upset about the ending, because my first reading wasn't such a bad one, it was just...really different.

Which doesn't say much for JKR on the subject of continuity, does it? I thought I read somewhere once that she actually had most of the last book written out by the time GoF came out, which would explain a lot, but I might have that wrong. Times when she said that Sirius's death and OotP were important, and that HBP did what she wanted it to do, it was all in terms of plot...but a lot of the themes set up in those books ended up being shafted when turned into plot points. It's taking those two books into consideration that really shows how the series got away from her. She probably wasn't aware that she was even creating new themes in her efforts to set up a plot.

She spoke of House Unity in OotP, but to her that was probably entirely Gryffindor-Ravenclaw-Hufflepuff related...in terms of Slytherin, I just got the feeling that she was replaying the drama with the four schoolheads (Slytherin had a disagreement with the others and left). Draco, oddly enough, became an actual character in her attempts to explain why he was a) such a crappy Death Eater, and
b) worthy of saving from a burning room -- and I really did get a sense of "worthiness" being required, not in Harry's thought process, but more as in the general writing style (Draco had been trying to save the Trio, Goyle did nothing but stand around stupidly, hence they were saved; whereas Crabbe was casting Avada-Kedavra's and Fiendfyre's all over the place, and even trying to save him wasn't an option). She probably didn't count on Draco's actually becoming a character (if anything, it's like she might have gotten carried away giving fanservice to the Draco fans while she structured his part in the final plot).

I've got to think more on this.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

We seemed to have kind of similar experiences, though I was more hopeful in the different way it went in HBP. I definitely think she only accidentally gave stuff to Draco fans while structuring his part in the final plot. I'm still kind of stunned that she could do that as much as she did, but I do think that's what happened. And as you say, it wasn't the first time it happened.

I think part of it was that I always assumed that as the hero Harry would have to be struggling with personal flaws and truths and in the end he really wasn't. He was good from beginning, and pretty much the way he saw things was okay throughout. The few times he had pity for somebody who was an enemy was just proving how amazingly good he was, not a hint to the direction he needed to move in.

[(Anonymous)]

Hello, don't really know how i stumbled on your journal, but I like this post. And i defiantly agree with you on the whole name situation, *blah*, but I still cant help wondering if James' middle name is Sirius, or if Harry's saving that for the next one.
Another thing that bothers me with the names was that they where all named after important people in Harrys life, (putting aside how creepy I find it) I mean, Ginny lost some people to, didn't she? Where is Fred, or maybe Molly jr?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! I thought that too. I guess it was lucky she was okay with the names of everyone important in *Harry's* life. But then, I guess people important to Harry are important to all.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Someone pointed me to this article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20070725/cm_csm/ysawyer
Interesting, and just a page long. Mentions that fans found something that maybe Rowling missed with Snape.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I read that too! Definitely interesting, and I think it's really true. I mean, that was one thing that was very clear in DH. Harry just really didn't have those kinds of personal challenges.

disappointed

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not a very big fan of the books. I did have some expectations, though. The Snape/Lily thing was weird. I was really hoping it wouldn't happen. Snape's character is metaphorically and literally dead to me.

Didn't JKR say the last word of the book would be scar?

Re: disappointed

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

This is one thing I can answer. JKR did an interview shortly before the book came out where she was asked if the last word was still scar, and she said for the longest time it was, but now it was "well."

Link to article

[jakwezst.livejournal.com]

Linked to interesting article, which, frankly, astonished me in that it seemed to get to the heart of what, for me, was so very wrong with not only DH but the entire series as a whole. Astonished because it apparently takes a great deal of courage to pen any sort of public criticism of these books. I am gobsmacked at the virulence and defensiveness of the anti-any-kind-of-critcism-of-Harry-and-JKR people. I shouldn't be, perhaps, but find that yeah I still really am.


http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070813/chaudhry

Re: Link to article

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the reaction to negativity is really weird to me--I mean, not always weird, and just because something is negative doesn't make it true--but it seems like people who even claim to not care about the series get angry when professional writers, even, write unflattering reviews. *goes to read article*