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I feel weird writing this post, because I don't really feel like posting, yet it seems like I should, and then I think--what, do you imagine the public is waiting on pins and needles for your words? Get over yourself!:-D
Anyway, I didn't much like it. Perhaps my feelings will change, but stop here if you don’t want to read any negative stuff. I don't have any rants prepared or anything or want to harsh anybody's buzz. (But misery also loves company!) I was talking to someone who's asked me what I needed from the book, what I wanted to happen or what would have made me satisfied, and the truth is, I don't have an answer. I don't have a list of prescriptive criticism, or think things were done badly, or should have been done a different way.
Well, except one little thing, which couldn't be helped. When that white doe showed up I never doubted for a second it was Snape's Lily!Patronus (cause she's a lady!James!). We'd seen Arthur's and Kingsley's Patronuses talk, and oh, how I wanted that beautiful sparkly stag to come up to Harry and tell him to get this Quest going already in Snape's sarcastic voice.
I've never loved these books the way some do--which should not be taken as a criticism of people who do. I just mean that I know there are people who re-read the books over and over as comfort, and that's not something I ever did. I didn't ever want to re-read to spend time with these people or in this world. There are other books I do feel that way about, books that other people find meh. Basically, I felt like JKR was writing a story of good and evil, and life and death, that resonated with her and satisfied her, and felt like a triumph for her--just not me. So I was a bit left out of the story, objectively even seeing characters doing good, brave things, and just not sharing much in the emotions. More than once I felt like I was seeing more story outline/structure than story so that it seemed very contrived (a couple of times Harry himself seemed to admit it) and made it feel like nothing was building to anything.
What it mostly made me do is go over all the ways I was reading it wrong, making my issues more central than the author really considered them. I don't think I was ever so off as, say, a Harmonian banking on the Hippogriff o'love or anything like that, and some things that happened I did predict (Snape/Lily, obviously, and DDM!Snape). But in general I think I was reading Rowling a bit too much like a Tolkien fan, and maybe too much as a Jungian (not that I'm any expert on Jung, but I was reading from my own idea of his stuff). And I think when JKR said that she was Christian and if she talked about her faith we'd know the ending, I immediately began interrogating from the *wrong* Christian perspective and got that wrong too.
Contrary to what some may have thought at times-or not-I don't hate the good guys. Still don't hate them, just still would not want to spend time with them or re-read the books to spend time with them. The characters I liked the most I think less of now or am just kind of confused by, which is unfortunate. I find Harry affectionately naming his child Albus Severus downright creepy--but that wasn't the first time in the book where that kind of thing happened.
Not sure what I predict fanfic-wise. I wonder if people might not start writing some interesting stuff. I did at one point think how I wanted to take a favorite character and put him in a different story.
Oh, also I've been dreading the epilogue for years, because I've always hated epilogues. Even when I was too young to know the name for them I hated them. Some books I guess can make a case for them being appropriate. HP is really not one of them that I can see. There was no reason I could see for needing to see these people married with children. The one good thing I read about it was after it was leaked, before I read it, and I read a comment where someone said the epilogue read like any cliché H/G fic...or any cliché post-war H/D fic.;-)
Anyway, I didn't much like it. Perhaps my feelings will change, but stop here if you don’t want to read any negative stuff. I don't have any rants prepared or anything or want to harsh anybody's buzz. (But misery also loves company!) I was talking to someone who's asked me what I needed from the book, what I wanted to happen or what would have made me satisfied, and the truth is, I don't have an answer. I don't have a list of prescriptive criticism, or think things were done badly, or should have been done a different way.
Well, except one little thing, which couldn't be helped. When that white doe showed up I never doubted for a second it was Snape's Lily!Patronus (cause she's a lady!James!). We'd seen Arthur's and Kingsley's Patronuses talk, and oh, how I wanted that beautiful sparkly stag to come up to Harry and tell him to get this Quest going already in Snape's sarcastic voice.
I've never loved these books the way some do--which should not be taken as a criticism of people who do. I just mean that I know there are people who re-read the books over and over as comfort, and that's not something I ever did. I didn't ever want to re-read to spend time with these people or in this world. There are other books I do feel that way about, books that other people find meh. Basically, I felt like JKR was writing a story of good and evil, and life and death, that resonated with her and satisfied her, and felt like a triumph for her--just not me. So I was a bit left out of the story, objectively even seeing characters doing good, brave things, and just not sharing much in the emotions. More than once I felt like I was seeing more story outline/structure than story so that it seemed very contrived (a couple of times Harry himself seemed to admit it) and made it feel like nothing was building to anything.
What it mostly made me do is go over all the ways I was reading it wrong, making my issues more central than the author really considered them. I don't think I was ever so off as, say, a Harmonian banking on the Hippogriff o'love or anything like that, and some things that happened I did predict (Snape/Lily, obviously, and DDM!Snape). But in general I think I was reading Rowling a bit too much like a Tolkien fan, and maybe too much as a Jungian (not that I'm any expert on Jung, but I was reading from my own idea of his stuff). And I think when JKR said that she was Christian and if she talked about her faith we'd know the ending, I immediately began interrogating from the *wrong* Christian perspective and got that wrong too.
Contrary to what some may have thought at times-or not-I don't hate the good guys. Still don't hate them, just still would not want to spend time with them or re-read the books to spend time with them. The characters I liked the most I think less of now or am just kind of confused by, which is unfortunate. I find Harry affectionately naming his child Albus Severus downright creepy--but that wasn't the first time in the book where that kind of thing happened.
Not sure what I predict fanfic-wise. I wonder if people might not start writing some interesting stuff. I did at one point think how I wanted to take a favorite character and put him in a different story.
Oh, also I've been dreading the epilogue for years, because I've always hated epilogues. Even when I was too young to know the name for them I hated them. Some books I guess can make a case for them being appropriate. HP is really not one of them that I can see. There was no reason I could see for needing to see these people married with children. The one good thing I read about it was after it was leaked, before I read it, and I read a comment where someone said the epilogue read like any cliché H/G fic...or any cliché post-war H/D fic.;-)
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Hello!
I personally wasn't all that disappointed with DH, I think, because I hadn't expected to have a very positive reaction in any case. To be honest, I never had extremely high expectations for the series to begin with; but I am quite interested in the HP-verse, for which I think fandom can take most of the credit. :-) When I first read the HP books as a little kid, I wasn't terribly fascinated with them; I thought they were cute and fun, but also simplistic and not tremendously substantial. I wound up stumbling into fandom fairly late, between OotP and HBP, but when I did, all of a sudden everything became a lot more interesting and nuanced! I found myself thinking more about characters and events that hadn't really registered with me because the books had sort of glossed over them, and it was at that time that I started thinking (and I still do!) that the HP-verse can be quite an interesting one for fans to play around in; it's a very expansive sort of world, but a lot is left vague by the author, and it's fun to fill in the gaps! For that reason, I tend to enjoy good HP fanfic a lot, even moreso than the actual books; particularly since I tend to prefer characters and storylines that JKR herself doesn't seem to want to invest much time or effort in. I sort of view the books not as the be-all and end-all of the HP-verse, but rather as springboards for an increasing number of ideas that fandom could explore. The more the better, really! So, although I was annoyed by the simplistic way that--for instance--HBP was told (all right, I confess the Chest Monster played a really fundamental role in turning me off it ;-)), and I didn't even particularly like the book itself, it was one of my favorite books of the series just because it provided so many interesting situations that fandom could take and twist around in far more interesting ways than JKR could, given her commitment to her preestablished (and very linear) storyline. I think the reason why HBP ultimately grew on me was the sheer number of ideas it made available to the readers, rather than way it actually explored any of those ideas.
DH, on the other hand, is the final book of the series, and so it was more focused on wrapping up previous loose ends than on providing anything new (it did introduce some new ideas/plot devices, like the Hallows, but then made sure to give us closure on them, too). It followed the pattern that I sort of expected it to from the beginning, but the difference is that it felt like a definite end, and thus deliberately avoided leaving any cliffhangers or major dangling plot points that fandom could rework and play with. It was disappointing because it was an anticipated and entirely predictable end to the series and, especially with that married-with-children bit at the end (even I didn't see that coming! It was sort of too schmaltzy for me to believe possible!! ;-)), like a shutting down of all of the more interesting stories that had sprung up after the sixth book. In a way, I never really wanted the story to end, because I wanted to ride out several more (and far more interesting) stories I had found in fandom, and I can't help but think that this new "canon" ending will discourage people from coming up with alternate storylines. So with that in mind, I can sort of understand why I feel a bit let down with this one, and why it's hard to come up with specific complaints. It isn't a problem with the writing style (which I actually think was a bit better than that of its predecessor, save for that godawful epilogue), or even with the narrative arc the story took (I can't say it was a disappointment per se, since it followed pretty much the same pattern found in previous books, and I can't say the ending surprised me very much). To me, it isn't really a glaring and specific error with the book itself; it's more the fact that the book exists, if you know what I mean :-D
Anyway, I'm sort of new to posting, so my thoughts come out a bit muddled; but hopefully they make some sort of sense!
--Mari
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I was thinking the same thing this morning! But isn't there a difference in understanding on Harry's part? You mentioned Jung in your post. Isn't the Jungian thing to become what you are?
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In fact, though, Harry had something more than in PS - his blood in Voldemort's veins. You could also say that at Godric's Hollow it was Lily's love that saved Harry, while in DH it was Harry's love that saved him. Harry does have greater understanding in DH than in PS, as he shows in his conversation with Voldemort. He is essentially the same Harry, though, and this was signalled in PS( I'm always saying this, lol!) when he looked in the mirror to see himself finding the philosopher's stone and saw that he already had it.
After HBP I eventually thought that the story would quite literally end at the beginning, back in Godric's Hollow. (A couple of weeks ago I even posted an essay about it, sigh!) It didn't, but it was circular, ending with Voldemort's Avada Kedavra rebounding on him as it had at the beginning, and Harry not wanting to use the elder wand as he hadn't wanted to use the stone in PS.
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You bring up something that I think is important. When I heard about JKR starting out by writing her end chapter, I thought that was a marvelous thing. Something I could never do, because my stories always do change in the process of writing them.
Which is a hideous problem for me. I wind up having to hack around for the ending. Sort of like those people in the Blair Witch Project.
But I think you're right. The predestination of the plot--mirroring the predestination of Harry's hero journey--negated story offers that came up in the previous books and needed to be addressed.
House Unity being the biggest one. Draco being the second one. I would give JKR the benefit of the doubt and say that she's confounding our expectations by not redeeming Slytherin and Draco--because they don't require redemption. They are what they are and shouldn't be reviled because of that.
But then she goes and throws in that slap to Snape about getting sorted too soon. As if he didn't exemplify the virtues of Slytherin along with courage. I can't quite figure it out--is she trying to make me hate Dumbledore? (I interpret that "stricken" look of Snape's to mean, "I can't believe you just dissed my own House to me, oh Epitome of Goodness and Wisdom.")
And she gives us some really clunky cliches in places where we should have had our expectations confounded. I'm thinking specifically of Molly yelling out, "Not my daughter, bitch!" to Bellatrix. I mean, that's right out of Aliens. And now that OotP uses the same moment with Sirius's "Get away from my Godson!" dare they even put that line into the screenplay? I'm also thinking about that kiss between Ron and Hermione. I can hear the audience cheering already--three years before the film will ever come out.
The problem is--none of it feels earned. Which seems weird considering this has been a decade-plus in the making. I can kind of buy that Harry's processed his turnaround on Draco, because he does start to pity him at the end of HBP--but there isn't a proper follow-through. We do need to see Draco do more than simply refuse to rat out the Trio. It's sort of like that Ginny relationship in HBP. The transition isn't there.
Good God, I'd have traded six weeks of camping for six words exchanged between Harry and Draco at Malfoy Manor. Something to at least acknowledge, "Gee, I'm sorry that my aunt is torturing your best friend and that Fenrir's going do something unspeakable as soon as Bella's done."
I really can't wait until the fans ask her about the Unforgiveables, too.
By a weird coincidence, I spent the whole week leading up to DH-Day watching the sixth and seventh seasons of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I can't help thinking that her story built to a much more uplifting message. In the commentary, Josh Whedon talks a lot about having to "earn" moments, such as Andrew telling Xander about Anya's death.
That's the thing. In BTVS, every single moment felt earned by the writing and the performances. I wish I could have said the same for DH. And I think an important difference was that, although the story arcs are pre-planned, there was enough room to incorporate the story offers that came up--instead of simply letting them drop. I might have wished some plots ended differently, but there wasn't one that I felt didn't achieve closure.
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He wanted to be sorted into Slytherin on the train. His mother, or someone else close, must have been in Slytherin, too. She absolutely dissed 1/4 of the WW with that one, not to mention had the Supreme Mugwump of the Good Guys dis "one of the bravest men" in the series, and possibly his mother.
We do need to see Draco do more than simply refuse to rat out the Trio.
Draco seemed uncomfortable when we saw him at Malfoy Manor, even in chapter one, which was not Harry's POV. Then, in the RoR/RoHT, he was all SuperDE and out to get Potter. Crabbe and Goyle, I can see. Why throw Draco in, other than to answer Narcissa's question later on?
(BTW, Narcissa's a great sneak, and Trelawney has balls)
I really can't wait until the fans ask her about the Unforgiveables, too.
Right. If Barty and his Aurors were wrong, then Harry, McGonagall, and, I assume, Molly, were wrong. There was still a double standard. And, it was upheld by Dumbledore in ch. 33, when he intimated that it was intention that split the soul in killing. He didn't want Draco to split his soul, but when Snape asked about his soul, he gave the old line about helping an old man avoid pain and humiliation.
And I think an important difference was that, although the story arcs are pre-planned, there was enough room to incorporate the story offers that came up--instead of simply letting them drop.
I think the major problem was writing the epilogue before the series was even started. She locked herself into things that maybe didn't quite build up for her as she wrote - like Harry and Ginny. Characters do try to influence their destinies (so much for predestination in writing!) - Arthur got his reprieve in OotP, and someone got axed (in DH?) which was not in the plan.
On Arthur's reprieve, it seems to me that she couldn't have him die, since he was their link to the Ministry, unless she had meant for Percy to redeem himself sooner and be the link, with his close ties to the office of Minister. Heh. If so, then Percy's been "redeemed" since OotP, because he saved Arthur's life by not cooperating with his Creatrix.
An outline would have given more leeway to explore things, I think, and more room to tinker as stories wrote their own subplots. But what I don't get is, why didn't she foreshadow the Hallows, as merely an interesting piece of WW lore: they have their own fairy stories for kids, and they use them as cultural references the way we do. We talk about a "Cinderella Story", they could say something about surprising magic like, "It's like you had the Elder Wand!" It wouldn't have given too much away, IMO, to do something like that every so often, and it wouldn't have looked like a contrivance for the necessity of DH... IMO, of course.
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I really can't wait until the fans ask her about the Unforgiveables, too.
Right. If Barty and his Aurors were wrong, then Harry, McGonagall, and, I assume, Molly, were wrong. There was still a double standard. And, it was upheld by Dumbledore in ch. 33, when he intimated that it was intention that split the soul in killing. He didn't want Draco to split his soul, but when Snape asked about his soul, he gave the old line about helping an old man avoid pain and humiliation.
mean that one splits ones soul and creates a horcrux quasi accidentally everytime one kills? I don't really get this "good guys don't kill"-thing. Not that I think you should go around murdering people like Voldemort, but the final battle felt awfully wrong to me exactly for this reason. The DEs throw deadly curses around right, left and center and McGonagall answers that with gallopping desks??? The good guys are so good they just cast bodybind-hexes, which means after half an hour the DD recovers, gets into the fray again and uses deadly force himself. Which in my view means that I'm responsible for everyone he kills after I fail to really stop him. For me the final battle felt like so often when JKR seems unable to decide whether something is cute and funny like stampeding funiture or terribly tragic like AK. Meh!
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I think Voldy was the only one to accidentally make a Horcrux in the course of the series, since he blew away the shell protecting the newly-torn soul bit. I *speculate* that at some point in the WW's history, someone did make an accidental Horcrux, which is how they found out it could be done at all. Most people don't agree with my speculation.
I don't think that every killing splits one's soul. Killing in self-defense, or in defense of others, or in the natural course of war, is not, in my opinion, the same as murder, which tears the soul. A lot of people did think that Harry and the other kids especially, but to a lesser extent all of the Good Guys, should not kill if they could possibly avoid it. Some thought Harry especially should not kill at all. The message it sends to kids, all of that, was much of the reason. Harry being pure of soul was another.
Literally, you wouldn't be responsible for the actions of a DE who got out of your bodybind. He understands that he got off light, and chooses to go back into the fray. He may be contemptuous of you for having used a mild spell against him, or he may not think of it at all. Morally, I think, only you can answer that question. If it was me, I would feel terrible and be kicking myself.
The book does make the distinction that the Aurors under Barty Crouch Sr. were questionable in using the Unforgivables in the heat of VoldWarI. Moody is held up as being above the rest because he didn't kill unless he had to. The same books show, then ignore, Harry using, or trying to use, Unforgivables from about Order of the Phoenix on. It seemed like a double standard to me: Support Harry and use Unforgivables with impunity (sp?); Support Voldy and use Unforgivables and be cast into outer darkness... er, Azkaban. Same act, same circumstances, different outcome.
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I do think that very likely as most inventions are made that way, namely an accident or something giving someone an idea.
I don't think that every killing splits one's soul. Killing in self-defense, or in defense of others, or in the natural course of war, is not, in my opinion, the same as murder, which tears the soul. A lot of people did think that Harry and the other kids especially, but to a lesser extent all of the Good Guys, should not kill if they could possibly avoid it. Some thought Harry especially should not kill at all. The message it sends to kids, all of that, was much of the reason. Harry being pure of soul was another.
I agree with you here, but not being in HP I didn't know the general agreement was the good guys shouldn't kill at all. I personally don't think of Harry as being especially "pure of soul".
Literally, you wouldn't be responsible for the actions of a DE who got out of your bodybind. He understands that he got off light, and chooses to go back into the fray. He may be contemptuous of you for having used a mild spell against him, or he may not think of it at all. Morally, I think, only you can answer that question. If it was me, I would feel terrible and be kicking myself.
Well, maybe not in court - but I would feel that way if someone had to die because I put the purity of my soul above the safety of my friends and allies.
The book does make the distinction that the Aurors under Barty Crouch Sr. were questionable in using the Unforgivables in the heat of VoldWarI. Moody is held up as being above the rest because he didn't kill unless he had to. The same books show, then ignore, Harry using, or trying to use, Unforgivables from about Order of the Phoenix on. It seemed like a double standard to me: Support Harry and use Unforgivables with impunity (sp?); Support Voldy and use Unforgivables and be cast into outer darkness... er, Azkaban. Same act, same circumstances, different outcome.
I have no idea how you would stop people using deadly force themselves for good if not with AK - which I find a pretty merciful way of killing with regard to weapons like bombs and grenades used by muggles. And yes to what you said about double standards. That was bothering me all the time.
Thanks!
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I hope this doesn't sound too snarky, but I can't resist because the image is cracking me. This makes the Battle of Hogwarts sound like Paintball. If you get hit by a bodybind, then you should--by the rules of etiquette--retire yourself and sit on the sidelines for the rest of the day.
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LOL! FTW!