sistermagpie | Amateur HP Psychology

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Amateur HP Psychology

I am not getting any e-mail and I don't know why. They just started coming, but anything from today before the last ten minutes seems to be gone.

I've been reading this book on the Shadow as in Jung (kind of a theme lately) and I'm reading about how the Shadow is all the things you repress in yourself, so you're enraged when you see them in other people. So somebody else could be a terrible person but wouldn't bother you as much because you're not repressing those kinds of things too much. What's horrible about it is I'm reading and knowing that my shadow…

Is post-GoF Ginny Weasley.

She's not the only one, obviously, but oh my god she so is my shadow. When I hear anyone defending her--even reasonably--I am filled with rage. Of course, being who I am (what I repress) I have to try to listen objectively and even admit when the person has a point, because I always want to be accurate and blah blah. Sometimes even I have to defend her because something's off. But what I really want to do is hex the person so that they shut up. Or say something mean that's probably like, "Don't start talking about Quidditch, you'll only embarrass yourself." Or run into the person and put them in the infirmary. This is why it's so strange when people say one must hate Ginny because one wants Harry for herself, because when Harry is liking Ginny it's hard for me to just not see him as a jerk. Like I picture them in their 30s as some dreadful couple I'd avoid. Unfortunately this isn't exactly objective canon analysis, so I can't usually just say that.

The one good thing about this is Lupin is a lot like me in this way--I mean, the kind of stuff he swallows--so maybe he hates her too. I believe when Ginny is throwing her temper tantrum in OotP Lupin quietly shuts the door. For Lupin that's probably the equivalent of smacking her in the face. Poor guy has to live with her.

Oh, the other thing I just read in one essay in the book that we tend to notice and react to Shadow things more in our own gender than the opposite gender--we can ignore stuff when it's in the other gender. I guess that's where fandom's OMG U R JUS JELLUS AND U DON'T LIKE GIRLZ!!1!!1

I was thinking about this in my ballet class, mostly because I have another Shadow problem there, or maybe it's just a pet peeve. Okay, in a dance class you often split into groups to do combinations. There is this woman who always GOES WITH ALL THE GROUPS! In this case there's just the two groups, but it drives me up a tree. The point is to split up so there's room. Yes, she's just one more person, but why the hell does she get to decide that she's the person who gets to dance whenever she wants because everyone else is only going once? What if everybody just decided to do that? (And btw, we're talking about somebody who's in class with some professional dancers--not me--and is herself not even really on the level the class is at. Every time I see her doing it I start stewing. Also she always winds up standing near me so I'm wishing there wasn't somebody so close to me because I don't like people behind me and look--it's her!

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the Shadow is all the things you repress in yourself, so you're enraged when you see them in other people

Heh. I think the fact that I see a lot of the things I dislike about myself in Snape is why I cannot fathom the great love people have for him. He's bitter, he's mean, he's jealous, he desperately craves recognition and wants to belong to the most powerful group so he can avenge past slights and wrongs...

...I mean, the kind of stuff he swallows...

Perfect word choice for a seemingly slash-centric fandom, don't you think? ;)

I don't know anything much about the Shadow or Jung etc, but this:

When I hear anyone defending her--even reasonably--I am filled with rage.

is exactly how I feel too. :/ Not such a good thing, is it, hahaha?

It's completely ridiculous, but whenever someone talks about Ginny (unless they're talking about why they dislike her etc.), I just want them to shut up, no matter what they're actually saying. Anything about her just makes me so cranky.

Woe.

*starts club*

For Lupin that's probably the equivalent of smacking her in the face. Poor guy has to live with her.

Haha, I hope so. I'm glad someone has the potential to feel that way in the books.

See, that's interesting, and it probably goes toward explaining why I don't feel strongly about Ginny at all. She just exists in canon to me, and I don't hate her the way I dislike, say, Molly, who likely is a Shadow to me. (Shudder.)

(Like I picture them in their 30s as some dreadful couple I'd avoid.

FWIW,

svenskaa and I always imagine that Harry and Ginny will hook up and have a shotgun wedding when they're like 23, but it'll last about 10 months before Harry starts spending a lot of time with Draco and Ron and Hermione have to take custody of the baby and Ginny goes off and has an affair....)

I'm not sure who my Shadow is, because I tend to develop a dislike of anyone when I hear people defend them too much (and conversely, I tend to get to like anybody I hear people slagging on - I've developed a great deal more sympathy for Hermione from reading the Snarkery than I ever got from reading the books.) I suppose it's probably Dumbledore, since he's exactly the sort of character I immediately dislike for being such an arrogant bastard when I'd far rather be the only arrogant bastard in the room.

I don't know very much about Jung, but I have recently come across some ideas of his on the shadow which interest me as pertains to Draco. (What a big surprise that is! *grins*)

Here are some quotes I found:

Good does not become better by being exaggerated, but worse, and a small evil becomes a big one through being disregarded and repressed. The shadow is very much a part of human nature, and it is only at night that no shadows exist.
"A Psychological Approach to the Dogma of the Trinity" (1942) In CW 11: Psychology and Religion: West and East. P.286

--seems like the current situation in the HP universe at present

Just as we tend to assume that the world is as we see it, we naively suppose that people are as we imagine them to be. In this latter case, unfortunately, there is no scientific test that would prove the discrepancy between perception and reality. Although the possibility of gross deception is infinitely greater here than in our perception of the physical world, we still go on naively projecting our own psychology into our fellow human beings. In this way everyone creates for himself a series of more or less imaginary relationships based essentially on projection.
"General Aspects of Dream Psychology" (1916). In CW 8: The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche. P.507

--or assume that as a woman you know how it is

Post-GOF Ginny irks me, but more for the lack of continuity of character than anything else. I'd have to say my Shadow character is probably Ron, as he tends to get my big irrational reaction, probably partly because I grew up, you know, without a lot of money, but It's Not Who I Am - only of course, sometimes it is.

Which would also explain why I dislike Ron/Hermione. I mean, how self-absorbed would that be?

Hmm... see, this is why I like reading you. You make me wish I had my entire library (small as the nonfiction section is) with me in my dorm room, so I won't have to hike across campus to brush up on what exactly a Shadow is, and how it differs from the Freudian animus and anima.

Got no comments on Shadows and HP canon at the moment, but I can totally relate to your hating people who stand behind you for no good reason! (I'm one of those people who will always work my way to the back of the elevator if my floor isn't the next one up.)

I’m not familiar with Jung, but I’m familiar with the feeling of instant antipathy. One part of me castigates myself for intolerance, but the other part goes ‘yeah, but no, but yeah, but, look how aggravating that person is, I mean, really, you know, fair’s fair.’

One of the mother’s at J’s school has this effect on me, severely. Just to see her walking past me on the street sends my blood pressure up a couple of notches. Her clothes? Her attitude? Her obvious and blinding stupidity? I find it very puzzling. (And no doubt she finds me doing a puzzled wrinkly glare at her for no reason kind of alarming too.)

And I don’t think I’ve ever really spoken to her, which makes this all the more unreasonable. However, I may leave the question open as to whether she reflects some aspects of myself that I have repressed. I have enough of them that I do know about, I don’t need to be reminded of the repressed ones as well. :)

I think in HP, the character that I feel this most strongly about isn’t Ginny, it’s Molly. Rereading the final chapters of GoF, I keep having to restrain myself from throwing the book across the room.

Like I picture them in their 30s as some dreadful couple I'd avoid.

Um, thank you for verbalizing everything that I haaaaaaaaaate about canon Harry/Ginny.

Ooh, I get that. I don't really hate any of the characters except for, y'know, Voldemort and Umbridge, but there are times when Hermione really annoys me. And I practically am Hermione, except that I have more tact (not saying much). I just want to shout at her to stop being like that about the HBP and such -- when I'm quite bossy and a know-it-all and I would have hated whoever got valedictorian if it hadn't've been my best friend (who, oddly enough, is very different from me in a lot of places, so maybe that's the opposite of this? And that's also why I like Sirius so much, because other than that we both don't need to study we are NOTHING alike).

When I hear anyone defending her--even reasonably--I am filled with rage.

Yes. I really wonder if JKR realizes how polarizing a figure Ginny is in fandom? Actually, scratch that, I'm sure she doesn't and probably all the better that she doesn't. I suppose one can say that everyone who dislikes Ginny as a character must want Harry for themselves, but this seems a limited view. For me, reading about Ginny is a disconnect - I recognize that the author really wants me to believe in the love of Harry and Ginny, but there's no life to it, no chemistry, no nothing, and the gaping hole between what the author intended and what's actually there on the page sucks all the life out of the narrative. In a way I envy those who buy the pairing. I am sure they're having a better reading experience than I am.

MY SHADOW CHARACTER IS NEVILLE. It all makes so much sense now. It's so true.

Of course, Harry's shadow character is Draco, to me, and that just horrifies me on whole new levels because um, I have no desire to ship Maya/Neville. Nor Ginny/Sister M, if it comes to that.

The shadow character is the one we cannot forgive. Though hell, she's not my shadow character, and it still makes me want to die when she snaps at Hermione rather than read another word.

People like Ginny do exist, of course people who are spunky and narrow-minded and Stand By Their Man - and all of these qualities I could forgive her, since she is young, were she better written - and people do like them. Possibly that is the problem: possibly we will never be free of our shadow characters because JKR is all, 'But she's just like my friend Mandy! Mandy is awesome!'

Hahahahahaha (sorry, that's... I shouldn't just leave it at that, but it's tempting.) :>
I totally know what

teratologist was saying in the comments about starting to resent any character people defend too much and liking the one people slag off-- though with Draco, people both defend him (too much) and slag him off (too much), so I'm always torn. Though in my -presence-, I feel they defend him too much, perhaps ;)) I really feel it's a sign of my great virtue (and my own obsession with Draco, I guess) that I continue to resist overt reactionary measures~:))

I think I get filled with rage (or something like it) when people defend Lucius, but no one really does (they say he's hot or interesting or they identify with him, but they don't tend to go all out and defend him, and if they do I blame it on the people defending him-- being not the sort of people I like-- rather than Lucius). Anyway, the reason I dislike him so much is the whole thing I have against manipulativeness and shrewdness and power-hungryness, etc. I don't think I'm secretly like that, though-- you can deeply dislike things and not actually be repressing those things, though I -am- aware I repress dominant/aggressive/alpha tendencies within myself (while not disliking it in characters). So does that mean a character like Sirius would be my shadow or not--? Like, are you allowed to not dislike and actually be attracted to the behaviors you won't/can't allow yourself?? I mean, I guess I've always wanted to be more 'butch' than I am, or something ^^;

It's true I dislike manipulative girls even more than manipulative guys, but it's just that girls are -differently- manipulative. Girls are even more sneaky than guys, it seems to me-- there's a different pattern for the same -type- of behavior. A manipulative liar, if it's a guy, might bebelievably conflicted and emotionally repressed or just deeply immature-- with a girl, I have a harder time buying the immaturity bit because I expect a girl to know what's -really- going on more. Though I don't tend to have hate-ons -or- love-ons for female characters as much, anyway. I can't think of -one- female character I've -hated-. I can really identify with a girl or think a girl is really cool (or boring), but I don't get emotionally attracted/involved enough to get pissed, generally. Odd. (I like girls! No, really...er...)

I think it's very basic to Harry's character-- or rather, pretty natural-- that he'd like Ginny. How it was -portrayed- (not well) is another thing, but that he likes Ginny is pretty 'no duh' to me in a way liking say, Hermione -or- Draco isn't. Though I've never really thought of Harry as someone desirable to have an acquaintance anyway-- I think he's the sort of person one would only really appreciate as a close friend, because otherwise he'd probably come off 'wrong' because he doesn't tend to project his personality very much. They probably -would- (will, ahahahah... okay that was a bit of an evil laugh, sorry, that's my inner Ginny for you-- well, mostly pre-OoTP-type) be an annoying couple, but I suspect much like Lily & James, they'll mellow with age. Harry's already started with the mellowing, I believe. So I suspect they'll become rather... um, distant shiny-from-afar-yet-friendly types. Maybe. Cliquish?

Anyway, my main point was that the parallels between Self & Shadow would probably be more complex(?) than just repression having to spill over into resentment. As in, you don't have to resent the things you repress, and don't have to be repressing the things you resent. Or something ^^; Brain hurty. -.-

Oh, yeah, the Shadows (or whatever one calls them) are ... pesky...

Instant irrational visceral loathing feels so ... immature when one is doing it. But there's nothing for it. Nothing can make it go away. I've had a couple within the friends&family circle for loong periods of time, and god, what do you say when somebody asks what do you think about their gf/bf and the honest answer is "I loathe them with all my being and sitting next to them makes me sick. I want to scream each time they talk to me, or say anything at all and I wish I never had to see them again.". It's not exactly something you up and confesses. :)

I can totally relate to that reaction to Ginny. I just want her to GO AWAY. There have been some discussions of her and H/G and "girl-bashing" lately and I'm been sitting on my hands to stop the vitriol spewing all over lj. I don't know which Ginny defenses are worse, the stupid ones or the reasonable ones. But I know that no matter how calm, intelligent and reasonably her case is stated, there's really no point.

I don't think it would have been so bad if there weren't legitimate and important reasons to question her characterisation and behaviour in the text. As it is, it so easy to get in this big tangle of loathing where the "good" reasons and the "gut" reasons get all mixed up.

And then when somebody starts ranting about jealousy and wanting Harry for yourselves or hating women or whatever, it's so hard to try and stay calm and rational and accept other people's pov.

I'm kind of wondering if the same Shadow system applies to ships, too. There are some ships I can accept, some I like, some I'm indifferent to, one I love, and then a few, but two in particular, that just boils my brain. There is rage just at the idea of them, I don't have to read fic to get all worked up, just seeing the ship notifications makes my stomach heave. Literally. Maybe there's a similar opposite relationship going on.

Um. I didn't mean this to be a rant. I just wanted to say word. You know. :)

- Clara

I can sympathize with the Ginny-hate (while I don't feel it - she just kind of annoys me.)

I am not sure I have any particular Shadow in HP. However, about 30% of the time, I think Snape is. This is kind of amusing, as the rest of the time, he absolutely entrances me (because of the way the character is written; not for the fangirly omg-wounded-man reasons) but there are times when I just. Can't. Read. what he's doing, it enrages me so - the comment on Hermione's teeth is one of them. People even discussing these evens also makes me want to tear my hair.

But my main point: excellent observation about Remus. Poor guy.

I can't think of any canon character I deeply dislike...does this mean I have no bad qualities to despise in other people and am, thus, perfect? ;)

Mine is Ginny.
How annoying do I find her-
truly there are no words
what is this hard blazing look in her eyes when
she comes up to devour harry
and the scent of flowers?
Kill me dead.

I don't think I have a Shadow in HP. I don't hate anyone in this universe - except perhaps James, from what I have read about him so far, but we don't know very much about him.

Since Lily is the character that pisses me off the most, I guess she'd be my shadow, except I can't think what qualities of hers I'm repressing in myself. I think my dislike for her might simply be, as Teratologist said above, a reaction to the reams of praise and the suggestion that Harry's mother had no real faults (except for little completely excuseable ones, of course, like being a bit cheeky). I find it easier to like most characters when I can really delve into their manky sides. Like Sirius - can't like him if he's the brave sexy rebel who rides a shiny bike and has the fluffiest relationship ever with his friends and lovers, but can stand him much more when seeing him as this miserable immature screaming remnant of a man who fucked up his life and had to live (and die) with that.

Curiously, I began to like Severus so much because he reminded me of me. He wants to be admired above all others, he's obviously bad with people in that special "stop existing you pain-in-the-arse" way(if he was a Muggle, he'd spend as long as he physically could on LJ, rather than going out), he seems to find it nigh-on impossible to forgive and forget or to admit that he's wrong. I think, however, that if his attitude and qualities along those lines resulted in his sucess and in people admiring him and saying what a strong and wonderful man he was, he'd piss me off. Harry has a lot of the same qualities Professor Snape does, what with the snap reactions to things, the tendency to cuddle grudges forever, and the bad hair (sorry) and yet canon praises him for his strength of character. Perhaps, then, Harry is my shadow, getting away with stuff that I can't :(

When I hear anyone defending her--even reasonably--I am filled with rage.

OMG yes. Even though it doesn't bother me as much as it used to, it still makes me grit my teeth in annoyance and hit the back button. As much as I try, I just can't understand how anyone would like a character like that. I honestly, truly don't see anything in Ginny's character that should make her likeable to so many people in the fandom.

This is incredibly thought provoking and cool.

Only now, I think I shall go hide from myself. Because the only person I've viscerally reacted to in this context?

Is Umbridge. *whimper* And I just want her dead, I was rooting for the centuars to kill her and what does that say about meee? o.o

This is a very interesting topic.

I never had any major dislikes in the HP world until recently. In OOTP, I couldn't stomach Umbridge. She reminded me of a woman I used to work with and I just kept seeing her not the character.

Ginny never bothered me until HBP. Something about her swinging red hair and flowery scent made me want to close the book forever. When she screeched that stupid Quidditch comment at Hermione and defended Harry's use of that curse, I had to force myself to finish the book. All I kept thinking about was Harry running through Hogwarts, covered in Draco's blood and hiding that book. How can something like that be defended? Right now, I fear that it will be swept under the rug in the next book. If JKR doesn't address that issue...I don't know.

Wow, I hate Dumbledore with the intensity of a thousand suns going supernova. I'm not sure that I subconsciously crave the absolute power he wields so irresponsibly throughout the series, though! I like a nice, quiet, sensible life. ;)

I find that the character I feel most irrationally about (because my DumbleHate is rational! Really! It is!) is Lucius. He's deeply superficial, wearing masks and throwing up facades, yet no-one seems to really know what's going on behind his disguises. He often comes across as petty, bigoted and smug, which does him no favors. He clearly hasn't prepared his son for the realities of dealing with Voldemort; considering Draco is his sole heir, such negligence in training makes no sense to me. I can't get a grasp of Lucius' character, and that mutability INFURIATES me.

Yet he's one of my favorite HP characters! I adore him and get such a kick out of him, but I also can't stand him. I completely understand why certain segments of the fandom get into such extreme fits of hate over him (and I love it when they cry, I really do!).

I don't feel excessively irritated when he gets fangirled in other quarters as this Uber-Sadistic Dom or Superfly Pimp...it's more angsty disappointment, a sense that people are mistaking the mask for the man. But all Lucius gives us are masks, so I've no right to piss on other people's parades when they choose to take him at face value.

I consider myself an upfront, what-you-see-is-what-you-get sort of person, so it wouldn't surprise me if my attraction/repulsion to Lucius was linked to repressed aspects of myself that are constantly shifting, petty-minded and self-absorbed. Oh, the shame. ;)

Ginny doesn't bother me as much as JKR's application of her. I see exactly what she's trying to do, and it's just failing miserably. She's slapped together with wet clay and glitter-glue as the star, as the classic redheaded goddess, and you can't go back and do that when the books begin and end with Harry Potter. Better that she'd give up and make it all about her, instead of ruining her creaking architectural monstrosity of a plot. IMO Ginny's too cardboard to hate. Disappointment, I guess, is my strongest reaction.

While Fudge filled me with great waves of loathing, and several characters strike me as idiotic, under your definition ... my Shadow's probably Peter Pettigrew.

I think I shall leave it at that.

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