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I was reading a bunch of different things today, including ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
kaiz's post on taking fanfic out of context and it got me thinking about just the general self-conscious nature of fandom, and the way that people can, in ways I don't think people always do in other groups, refer to some sort of way we're supposed to be interacting but aren't. That sounds confusing, but what I mean is, for instance, in "real life" if you're having a conversation about something, there's only limited situations where you can try to redirect the conversation on the grounds that it would be better to talk about something else. It always surprises me a bit when I see it in fandom--and I see it in every fandom--because the nature of fandom seems to be that it's a group of people who just need to talk about something for no other reason than they need to talk about it. The only goal of fandom discussion is the discussion itself, so you can't really go off-track. Yet the word “fan” has become something associated with positive appreciation and that’s it.
The kind of redirecting I'm talking about, in my experience, maybe because my own way of being a fan is to take a canon in my teeth and worry it like a terrier, is the requests to
Talk about Happy Thoughts in Fandom
I'm not just talking about what's probably the most common, obvious version of this, where people say that if you "hate" a canon so much why are you in the fandom, or don't want to hear what they feel is criticism of the canon. Someone can still be enthusiastic about analyzing the story and not care to read analysis they don't agree with or sounds negative to them. Often, though, this spills over into the idea that any over-analysis is bad, and sometimes I think it flip-flops the cause and effect. Instead of someone having a negative reaction to a story and analyzing why, it's suggested that they have analyzed themselves into a negative reaction. Had they just read the book or watched the show more honestly (without the expectations they show they have with their over-analysis) they would have liked it. Even if the person can show the problem they have in canon, it's still somehow as if they created the problem by looking for it.
That's a pretty common think in fandom, but what I'm more thinking about here is something I saw an example of recently. A bunch of fans were having this big intense discussion about something in canon. It was, imo, your classic fandom discussion where people were arguing over the facts presented, making references to other things in the fictional universe and the real one and trying to convince people of their point of view as if it really mattered. This led to a call to pull back from these types of discussions because they were negative, and the question of whether anyone just liked the books anymore. This led to a request for new, better topics, and people posting their favorite moments. (Actually, to be honest, the conversations in question were characterized unfairly as character-bashing when they were nothing of the sort imo.)
Now, I had a couple of reactions to this. I did have a stake in the discussion to begin with, as a participant. I was in full terrier mode because I felt like the facts were being distorted to fit emotional appeals in a way that made me want to keep jumping in to say, "That's not what happened. That analogy doesn't work. That's irrelevant..." etc. I can easily understand that there are many people who found the whole conversation boring, and probably me most of all.
But then, as it happens I find "list your favorite moments!" threads boring in the extreme. I don't find them offensive or anything, obviously. I don't think anyone is odd or stupid for participating in them. I just can't help but feel kind of brought up short by the contrast between them and the threads I like. In one I'm diving into the book, looking for "truth," breaking down storylines, scenes, sometimes even sentences, really feeling like I'm getting everything I can out of what's there. In the other thread it's like the Chris Farley show: Remember when Peeves did that thing and Harry laughed? Yeah. Remember when the Twins said that funny thing? Yeah. That was funny. I mean, if people were at least analyzing why they liked a scene so much I'd probably be more interested--though as it happened part of this thread grew out of a request to specifically stop bringing ourselves into the book so we could just appreciate it on its own. Which to me brings to mind a bunch of people being shown a painting and giving a polite golf clap on cue. Why would I type that?
The other way it sort of goes against all my own personal fan instincts is that when fandom is going well, for me, it's because the conversation has picked up. That's the juice I usually run on in fandom. It's what's gotten me to spit out lots of words about characters that left on my own I'd probably rarely think about. It's also probably technically fandom at its most geeky, but then that's why I came to fandom--my geek nature led me to it. It's why it's so frustrating for me to talk about a canon with people not in the fandom. When I write about a story to say, "This book shows a lot of creativity and the author is very imaginative. The characters are well characterized," it's probably because saying something nice is either part of my job or part of my trying to get a job. I've gone back to reading The Historian (still not that great--the author keeps telling us how scary what's about to happen will be and, um, it never is) and there's a scene where one of the narrators meets an important woman in the Hungarian government and notices how good she is at giving answers that say nothing at all. For instance, he asks, "Do you feel Hungary is flourishing under the government of Imre Nagy?" and she answers, "Nagy enjoys great popularity among our people and is carrying out reforms in line with our glorious history."
That's what I feel like when an intense discussion about some little bit of canon is met with, "Okay, we need better topics" and I get threads about minutia in canon I couldn't care less about or lists of scenes people like. That's not to say a discussion being intense means I'll be interested. In XF I faded out when anyone tried to talk about the Black Oil, in HP I don't care if Harry's a Horcrux. But I still feel more in line with people having intense discussions about that stuff than I do with people who call for polite praise and appreciation. I guess I feel like I understand the compulsion to figure out how something works in the story, even if I’m not drawn to that puzzle.
I would be lying if I said I didn't want, in reading a thread where people just list scenes they like, to jump in and demand they get more in depth or analyze canon instead of what they're doing because it would be more interesting to me. If I did that (and I'm sure there are people who do that) it would probably feel just as odd to the people in the original thread. As if you were having a pleasant, light bit of small talk and someone suddenly ordered you to talk about string theory as if you really cared about it, just because the party needed more of that. I guess what strikes me about the difference is that the person demanding more intense, detailed discussions is more apt to call other people shallow or stupid, rather than appeal to a sense of proper appreciation for the canon or respect for the author. If someone's saying out loud that someone isn't being a good fan, it usually means they're being too critical, not not critical enough.
kaiz's post on taking fanfic out of context and it got me thinking about just the general self-conscious nature of fandom, and the way that people can, in ways I don't think people always do in other groups, refer to some sort of way we're supposed to be interacting but aren't. That sounds confusing, but what I mean is, for instance, in "real life" if you're having a conversation about something, there's only limited situations where you can try to redirect the conversation on the grounds that it would be better to talk about something else. It always surprises me a bit when I see it in fandom--and I see it in every fandom--because the nature of fandom seems to be that it's a group of people who just need to talk about something for no other reason than they need to talk about it. The only goal of fandom discussion is the discussion itself, so you can't really go off-track. Yet the word “fan” has become something associated with positive appreciation and that’s it.The kind of redirecting I'm talking about, in my experience, maybe because my own way of being a fan is to take a canon in my teeth and worry it like a terrier, is the requests to
Talk about Happy Thoughts in Fandom
I'm not just talking about what's probably the most common, obvious version of this, where people say that if you "hate" a canon so much why are you in the fandom, or don't want to hear what they feel is criticism of the canon. Someone can still be enthusiastic about analyzing the story and not care to read analysis they don't agree with or sounds negative to them. Often, though, this spills over into the idea that any over-analysis is bad, and sometimes I think it flip-flops the cause and effect. Instead of someone having a negative reaction to a story and analyzing why, it's suggested that they have analyzed themselves into a negative reaction. Had they just read the book or watched the show more honestly (without the expectations they show they have with their over-analysis) they would have liked it. Even if the person can show the problem they have in canon, it's still somehow as if they created the problem by looking for it.
That's a pretty common think in fandom, but what I'm more thinking about here is something I saw an example of recently. A bunch of fans were having this big intense discussion about something in canon. It was, imo, your classic fandom discussion where people were arguing over the facts presented, making references to other things in the fictional universe and the real one and trying to convince people of their point of view as if it really mattered. This led to a call to pull back from these types of discussions because they were negative, and the question of whether anyone just liked the books anymore. This led to a request for new, better topics, and people posting their favorite moments. (Actually, to be honest, the conversations in question were characterized unfairly as character-bashing when they were nothing of the sort imo.)
Now, I had a couple of reactions to this. I did have a stake in the discussion to begin with, as a participant. I was in full terrier mode because I felt like the facts were being distorted to fit emotional appeals in a way that made me want to keep jumping in to say, "That's not what happened. That analogy doesn't work. That's irrelevant..." etc. I can easily understand that there are many people who found the whole conversation boring, and probably me most of all.
But then, as it happens I find "list your favorite moments!" threads boring in the extreme. I don't find them offensive or anything, obviously. I don't think anyone is odd or stupid for participating in them. I just can't help but feel kind of brought up short by the contrast between them and the threads I like. In one I'm diving into the book, looking for "truth," breaking down storylines, scenes, sometimes even sentences, really feeling like I'm getting everything I can out of what's there. In the other thread it's like the Chris Farley show: Remember when Peeves did that thing and Harry laughed? Yeah. Remember when the Twins said that funny thing? Yeah. That was funny. I mean, if people were at least analyzing why they liked a scene so much I'd probably be more interested--though as it happened part of this thread grew out of a request to specifically stop bringing ourselves into the book so we could just appreciate it on its own. Which to me brings to mind a bunch of people being shown a painting and giving a polite golf clap on cue. Why would I type that?
The other way it sort of goes against all my own personal fan instincts is that when fandom is going well, for me, it's because the conversation has picked up. That's the juice I usually run on in fandom. It's what's gotten me to spit out lots of words about characters that left on my own I'd probably rarely think about. It's also probably technically fandom at its most geeky, but then that's why I came to fandom--my geek nature led me to it. It's why it's so frustrating for me to talk about a canon with people not in the fandom. When I write about a story to say, "This book shows a lot of creativity and the author is very imaginative. The characters are well characterized," it's probably because saying something nice is either part of my job or part of my trying to get a job. I've gone back to reading The Historian (still not that great--the author keeps telling us how scary what's about to happen will be and, um, it never is) and there's a scene where one of the narrators meets an important woman in the Hungarian government and notices how good she is at giving answers that say nothing at all. For instance, he asks, "Do you feel Hungary is flourishing under the government of Imre Nagy?" and she answers, "Nagy enjoys great popularity among our people and is carrying out reforms in line with our glorious history."
That's what I feel like when an intense discussion about some little bit of canon is met with, "Okay, we need better topics" and I get threads about minutia in canon I couldn't care less about or lists of scenes people like. That's not to say a discussion being intense means I'll be interested. In XF I faded out when anyone tried to talk about the Black Oil, in HP I don't care if Harry's a Horcrux. But I still feel more in line with people having intense discussions about that stuff than I do with people who call for polite praise and appreciation. I guess I feel like I understand the compulsion to figure out how something works in the story, even if I’m not drawn to that puzzle.
I would be lying if I said I didn't want, in reading a thread where people just list scenes they like, to jump in and demand they get more in depth or analyze canon instead of what they're doing because it would be more interesting to me. If I did that (and I'm sure there are people who do that) it would probably feel just as odd to the people in the original thread. As if you were having a pleasant, light bit of small talk and someone suddenly ordered you to talk about string theory as if you really cared about it, just because the party needed more of that. I guess what strikes me about the difference is that the person demanding more intense, detailed discussions is more apt to call other people shallow or stupid, rather than appeal to a sense of proper appreciation for the canon or respect for the author. If someone's saying out loud that someone isn't being a good fan, it usually means they're being too critical, not not critical enough.
