Haha ok but... fnlkasjfal it's funny how we agree but put emphasis on different things. I never said *I* thought Lily was particularly kind by my standards, though I think she's more sensitive to Slytherins than Ginny just by virtue of having a Slytherin friend (which... sort of sounds like having 'black friends' or 'gay friends', but anyway... uhh yeah this sounds bad). I guess I got carried away saying Lily was symbolic of love and/or more 'loving', but this wasn't to say she was saintly.
Anyway, you're right in that the thing with her sister was more to do with being a witch (man, these things mutate in my head when I haven't thought of the canon for long enough... urgh). But I don't think Lily was Snape's friend the same way Ginny is Luna's... though I actually think Ginny is more Luna's and Neville's friend than Harry is... like, I think they were closer, more... love. Can I actually back this up? God, I guess not. Your interpretation definitely works, of course.
I think it's true she always liked James on some level, was attracted to him, and that James was never 'that bad', etc. At the same time, it's clear that at some points in their 5th and 6th years, both James and Sirius were really getting out of control, and James 'repented' more than Sirius did; grew up a bit more-- of course, this isn't hard since basically Sirius didn't grow up at all. But I think there's some stuff in canon about how James shaped up in seventh year, though we clearly know next to nothing about it. There wasn't that much shaping up to do, I guess, but he no longer teased Snape, at least so blatantly, I believe. I think he wanted her approval.
I didn't mean to turn this into some over-arching justification for either of them, just to say they have more grand/epic elements than H/G or R/Hr, but in some ways there are definitely still similarities. The big thing that really transforms J/L is the presence of Snape and them dying (through betrayal, no less). That really pumps up their story at lot, from a potential romance level point of view. Like I said earlier about romance in general, I suppose you can always take the same facts and make a different narrative out of it-- depending what point you're trying to make. With H/G, I see less attempts by canon to make the story epic-- as you acknowledged, at least, there's a 'supposed to be' level in J/L that's pretty grandiose even if the characterization is more ordinary and repetitive. I mix up the intented glamour and actuality a bit too much, but speaking of True Love, for me the intent/stylization is important for the reasons of shifting narrative I mentioned.
I agree Lily is conflicted-- feeling bad about the pantsing but helplessly liking James' antics. Like I said, an appreciation for James' (and possibly Snape's, at some point!) 'mean humor'. But that doesn't really speak horridly of her character, necessarily, or mean she's actually a mean person who gloated at a friend's pain, etc. I do agree it's not a big change, because he was already supposed to be fine, not like Snape needed to change-- but it's still *romantic* that he shaped up for her. Here I want to separate what's romantic from what's admirable :P Trying to keep the romantic thread hanging when you're just being reasonable is hard :)) hahahaflsjklasj I was trying to explain my reasoning for seeing J/L as the most romantic narrative, remember :>
I do still think that it's not the bullying she finds attractive, per se, because that *would* make her actually actively horrid/hypocritical/mean, not just 'not that kind'. James is cute. Hell, Draco is cute. That doesn't mean Draco is cute because he's mean, but the cute way he's mean is... well, why he's cute. Y'know? This doesn't mean I like Draco because I like mean people. But I do like a lot of people who happen to be mean sometimes, but in particular ways, y'know. ^^;;;; James really was hot-headed, swaggery & cocky, funny & charming, etc, so even when he went too far it was hard to hate him. But since I like James, my opinion is probably moot ^^;;;
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Date: 2008-10-02 10:04 pm (UTC)Anyway, you're right in that the thing with her sister was more to do with being a witch (man, these things mutate in my head when I haven't thought of the canon for long enough... urgh). But I don't think Lily was Snape's friend the same way Ginny is Luna's... though I actually think Ginny is more Luna's and Neville's friend than Harry is... like, I think they were closer, more... love. Can I actually back this up? God, I guess not. Your interpretation definitely works, of course.
I think it's true she always liked James on some level, was attracted to him, and that James was never 'that bad', etc. At the same time, it's clear that at some points in their 5th and 6th years, both James and Sirius were really getting out of control, and James 'repented' more than Sirius did; grew up a bit more-- of course, this isn't hard since basically Sirius didn't grow up at all. But I think there's some stuff in canon about how James shaped up in seventh year, though we clearly know next to nothing about it. There wasn't that much shaping up to do, I guess, but he no longer teased Snape, at least so blatantly, I believe. I think he wanted her approval.
I didn't mean to turn this into some over-arching justification for either of them, just to say they have more grand/epic elements than H/G or R/Hr, but in some ways there are definitely still similarities. The big thing that really transforms J/L is the presence of Snape and them dying (through betrayal, no less). That really pumps up their story at lot, from a potential romance level point of view. Like I said earlier about romance in general, I suppose you can always take the same facts and make a different narrative out of it-- depending what point you're trying to make. With H/G, I see less attempts by canon to make the story epic-- as you acknowledged, at least, there's a 'supposed to be' level in J/L that's pretty grandiose even if the characterization is more ordinary and repetitive. I mix up the intented glamour and actuality a bit too much, but speaking of True Love, for me the intent/stylization is important for the reasons of shifting narrative I mentioned.
I agree Lily is conflicted-- feeling bad about the pantsing but helplessly liking James' antics. Like I said, an appreciation for James' (and possibly Snape's, at some point!) 'mean humor'. But that doesn't really speak horridly of her character, necessarily, or mean she's actually a mean person who gloated at a friend's pain, etc. I do agree it's not a big change, because he was already supposed to be fine, not like Snape needed to change-- but it's still *romantic* that he shaped up for her. Here I want to separate what's romantic from what's admirable :P Trying to keep the romantic thread hanging when you're just being reasonable is hard :)) hahahaflsjklasj I was trying to explain my reasoning for seeing J/L as the most romantic narrative, remember :>
I do still think that it's not the bullying she finds attractive, per se, because that *would* make her actually actively horrid/hypocritical/mean, not just 'not that kind'. James is cute. Hell, Draco is cute. That doesn't mean Draco is cute because he's mean, but the cute way he's mean is... well, why he's cute. Y'know? This doesn't mean I like Draco because I like mean people. But I do like a lot of people who happen to be mean sometimes, but in particular ways, y'know. ^^;;;; James really was hot-headed, swaggery & cocky, funny & charming, etc, so even when he went too far it was hard to hate him. But since I like James, my opinion is probably moot ^^;;;