Understanding the Hatred

[sistermagpie]

There's something I see it all the time, really, about every character--in fandom, and it seems like it probably makes people crazy unnecessarily. Basically, I just see a lot where people will say they don't understand the hatred of a particular character. This surprises me because honestly, there's not a single character I can think of where I can't understand people not liking him or her--even if they are my favorite character. Not only is there just the basic idea that nobody appeals to everyone, but when people are talking about fictional characters they're often very clear about why they don't like a character.



Sometimes the explanation of why people don't like the character is included in the confusion. For instance: "I don't understand how somebody can hate Hagrid. I can understand not liking Sirius because he's an asshole, but saying Hagrid is a childish oaf and incompetent and irresponsible as a teacher? WTF? I just can't understand it."

Err...what's not to understand? The person seems to have explained it: they don't like Hagrid because they think he's a childish oaf and an incompetent and irresponsible teacher. Even if you love Hagrid, wouldn't you know what this referred to? I mean, I think Snape's the most interesting character in canon, but if somebody said, "I hate Snape! He's a pathetic bully still obsessed with high school and a horrible teacher who picks on 11-year-olds!" that might not be the way I'd describe the character if somebody asked about him but I still recognize Snape in there. Whether one describes him as "A complex character struggling with demons from the past that's defined by a significant moral choice," or the aforementioned pathetic bully depends on where the reader is coming from. They're both accurate. What you've really just said is, “I just don't understand why people don't like this person I like. I can understand not liking the characters I don't like, but how could you dislike a character I like?” Well, just take that character you don't like and transfer it to the one you do and you go it.:-)

This works in reverse too--with somebody saying, let's say, "How can anybody like Hagrid?" It's just that I think people often spend less time actually writing posts about what they like about characters that are probably the hero anyway--when people write those nowadays it's more than likely in response to negative posts. Sort of a, "Hey, remember the way canon works again?" But still it does work the same--there aren't too many characters where I can't see why people like the character either. In fact, even without reading explanations I think I get why most characters I don't like much have fans.

When a character really gets under your skin and you get frustrated every time they appear, or you just love a character to death, that's even more subjective. Nobody gets along with everyone. There are times when people mischaracterize a character and that I think you can argue against. You can argue through canon that the characters themselves don't hate your hated character or feel angered by him/her the way you are by showing their reactions. You can challenge their versions of why someone is doing something. You can show that someon's claim that a character is acting out of kindness is incorrect based on canon. I know I've certainly had people convince me to feel a different way about a character by explaining things about him/her so I understand him/her differently. But other times we're all looking at the same character and reacting differently. There's probably only so much you can do if a character embodies something that another person really doesn't like. There's a reason people hate Sirius or Ron or Draco or Harry or Hagrid or Molly and sometimes they're better at explaining exactly why that is than they are at explaining why they like a character. Of course, sometimes the explanation I hear might not be the same one the person thinks they're giving--mwahahaha!--but still. As painful as it is, I even get why people hate Frodo. Believe me, this is hard for me to do. But having heard the explanations more than once, I get why people hate both Frodo and Sam.

I've just been finding lately that it seems like whenever somebody holds up the "hater's" view of a character, even if it's a character that I myself like, and says, "This is ridiculous! Where are they getting this stuff?" I always find myself thinking it's perfectly accurate, if negative. Sometimes I don't even think it's negative, it's just an accurate description of the person that's not particularly flattering. Or maybe I think it's inaccurate but I can see where they're getting it anyway. It's like that description of the Marauders and Lily that put them in terms like, "Then there's the girl you think is really cool for standing up to them until you find out she's fucking one of them." Unflattering? Yes. Something everyone would say? No. Inaccurate? Not really. It's the way Lily would honestly come across to plenty of people. That's a perfectly reasonable description of her from what we've seen, even if it's obviously biased. Or the twins: They play practical jokes, many of which involve making someone sick or bleed. One person sees this as just funny; another person thinks it's sadistic. But what's to not understand, really, about each pov? You might not ever be able to agree with one pov or the other, but surely it's been explained. It's a joke, which is why it's funny. It's physical distress for pleasure, which is why it's sadism. It seems like to say one doesn't understand the other pov more means one just doesn't share it and doesn't want to share it, not that you don't understand it intellectually. That's often how I mean that expression when I say it, that I think it's crazy to think that way or whatever.

See, I think *all characters* (and all people) can be seen in a good light and a bad light, but it's important to remember that they are both right. Molly Weasley can be both a smothering harpy AND a brave and loving mother tiger in the same book to different people. Sirius can be a tragic figure tortured by Azkaban yet strong enough to fight his way out to protect his best friend's son AND the alcoholic jerk how never took responsibility for his own actions. Ron can be a lazy loser who whines and also a regular kid who's even better than his more special friends because of it. Harry can be insufferable and long-suffering at once. There are facts from canon, where we can figure out exactly what a character is doing and why in any scene. Then there are just the ways we as individuals react to that character and that's just subjective. How do you really argue against it? It would be like talking about any real person--if it was always so clear who we should like nobody would be voting for G.W.Bush.

It's not that I think it's pointless to post about how one feels about a character one way or the other--I like reading those posts a lot. It's good to get out the different views of the characters so one doesn't dominate. I think it's important to argue for accuracy, whether you think a character's being whitewashed or villified...well, maybe just because that drives me crazy. It's really only annoying when people insist on including an explanation of why other people disagree, usually one that reflects badly on the person. Things like: "People who like the character I don't like were bullies in school." "People who don't like the character I like don't have artistic temperaments."

I know I have always had a problem sounding like I like or dislike characters without meaning to. A lot of times, see, I just get interested in some aspect of the character and focus on that. Then somebody will say, "But what about X,Y and Z," and I'm all, "Oh yeah, I agree with that too." I just have a lot of experience being mistaken for being either a big fan of a character I don't like or somebody who hates a character I do like because of something that to me seems completely neutral. Like, I don't even think I'm offering any opinion because I'm trying to be all objective and get around my own biases.

Comments

[djinanna.livejournal.com]

What you said. Especially the bit about when it's a springboard for slagging the people who hold the opposing view. Double what you said for that part.

Me, I love Harry (I am, in fact, a borderline shameless-Harry-pamperer). But I can see where he's not perfect. And I'm not very fond of Molly -- except when I am. And one of the ways/times I'm fond of Molly is when I'm looking at her through Harry's (biased) eyes. And I know why Harry has such a bias and it makes me go all "woobie!" about him. But I can generally see the other POV. (The only one so far I haven't been able to see the other POV about is Lucius; I just hate Lucius. I'm really curious about *why* I hate him with such singlemindedness, and I know many disagree with me and I get why they do. I just disagree.)

In another fandom of mine, I'm about ready to bust a seam over the number of times I've been "inadvertently" insulted and had my intelligence and aesthetic tastes called into question for liking the character of Spike. And, in several cases, being told (indirectly) that the reason I like Draco is that "he's just Spike in a different fandom". And ... *grrrrr*

Excuse my rant. I'll go "ohm" in a corner for a while until I'm calm again.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

....People hate Frodo....???? *lip wobbles* .............I have a hard time with that, man. *sniff* I'd have to steel myself & shut off some major emotional valves to fully get that, I think. Then again, Harry-hate makes me want to hide too, and Harry's not even really 'heroic' (yet) or all that nice/noble/etc.... Wah.

Anyway, your ability to see people in an even light is one of the (many) things that make me proud to know you, man. I'm just sort of like, reassured by your sanity, if that makes sense~:) I can always see both views too, though the ability to do that is rare in people, I think, 'cause it's a more rationalist than emotionally based (vs. empathy-based) pov. ....It's frustrating, but one of the continuing tragedies of the human race is how little we allow ourselves to understand where other people are coming from without projecting ourselves or what we're used to in our own world onto them & their experiences.

Hehehe recently, I've been allowing myself to see the likability of George Bush :D :D :D :D *beams madly* You have to understand, my hate for him is long-standing and fierce, to the point where I will have slagged him off worse than any other person, living or dead. Now, after several months of just not following politics or tv or the news and deciding I don't care (...prolly not a good tactic, but anyway-- key here is 'gaining distance')-- I was watching this CNN program on his (well, his wife's) younger years, and I was like-- hey, he was cute/dorky as a young guy. And I really kind of find his relationship to his family sweet, and he's just kind of... uh... not too deep, but he can't help that, can he? At least he's a humble(??) 'normal' sort of guy. Hey, I can dig it. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHH.

Anyway, we obviously are in complete agreement when it comes to this whole business, but then you know that. I think possibly I get more pissed off/frustrated than you(?) at all this in-fighting and refusal to understand or -think-, but yeah. Perhaps this -is- related to the ability to think critically (ahahaha HOW POMPOUS DO I SOUND).

Though honestly, there -are- trends as to what kind of people will like certain kinds of characters-- about as much as there are what sorts of people we gravitate to for friendship, though looser since you don't have to be able to tolerate a character in real life. However, there's a rift between people who do and do not perceive characters the way they would real life people. Heheh I've actually never seen you be angry (well-- in an obvious way, I think I can kind of tell how you feel these days but it's not-- uh-- well anyway usually not prominent in meta posts one way or the other). Ahahah the idea makes me laugh. Man, judgmental people. =;

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Er, hi... (feel the need to say hi 'cause it's weird to just comment at you since I don't know you, but.)
I'm totally a 'borderline shameless-Harry-pamperer' too, and omg, do I hate Lucius (most day) and sometimes I like Molly/sometimes I don't, and I love Spike & Draco and basically we seem to be on the same frequency as far as character bias so far, so I was about to say maybe there's some connection between liking Harry (a lot) and identifying/assuming his pov easily and hating Lucius. I mean, I come close to not hating Lucius when I assume Draco's pov, for instance-- it's really just my Harry muse/self that hates Lucius, heh. But then I remembered having a friend who's much like me in temperament/taste as far as loving boy-heroes & liking H/D and she does seem to enjoy Lucius (and BDSM-type Harry/Lucius... child of the devil)... so perhaps it's more a question of what kinks you just (so sadly) personally don't possess :>

Anyway, I'm with you on my only HP hated character being Lucius (weird since it can't be the evilness-- since I like Tom-- or the poncey aristocratic dorkiness-- since I like Draco-- and it's not like he's the most sadistic of the bunch (not like Snape isn't nearly as sadistic, prolly-- or hey, Filch or Umbridge.... it's just. Something About Lucius, ahaha, or maybe just fanon!Lucius, which is really whom I hate).

Er. Well, at least you're not alone :D

[djinanna.livejournal.com]

Hi! Yay Harry!

Now that the formalities are over ... it's too late to be too coherently linear in answering this, so please bear with me rambling and babbling.

I think I also hate Umbridge, but since I've only encountered her in fanfic (only read first two books and seen first two movies) it's hard to say. And I do rather dislike Voldemort. But Lucius is the one I hateloathedespise.

Interesting thought/theory about love Harry/hate Lucius, except that I've seen too many requests for recs of "romantic Harry/Lucius fic". I mean, if it was just BDSM non-con abuse etc Harry/Lucius, that would be one thing, but *romantic* Harry/Lucius. Just. Don't. See. That One. At All. ::is perplexed::

And I do have many kinks. BDSM kinks. My big anti-kink (um, I mean, my squick) is non-con.

::sheepishly turns journal back to sistermagpie::

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Er, well... *shuffles foot*... SM probably doesn't mind :D :D Er, at least she's used to -me- babbling by now, anyway~:)) *is shameless*

Anyway, I just wanted to say that the people who'd want romantic!Harry/Lucius would probably be the same people who actually -want- OOC characterizations (those do exist) 'cause they like fanon better than canon. Um. Democracy yeay? People also tend to romanticize evil/dark/sadistic bastards and either villify them utterly (ooh sexy dark creature of the night... or something) or suppose they're sekritly not-that-bad (thusly... Lucius was always actually against the Dark Lord-- yeah that happens). Also, plenty of people just think he's hot (see, there's the cane and the long hair and the masterful rich-guy thing going on). I am so fair it hurts :> :>

I think I hate Umbridge too... though she's such a caricature it's hard to really hate her. Lucius, I mostly just recent for being a fuck-up who's got some power (ergh, policians) and also will likely mess up Draco past all hope.
I just meant that Harry/Lucius, I think, is a specific non-connish(? often, anyway) type kink which might be what lets it coexist with the person's 'normal' empathy towards Harry, since I generally think being paired with Lucius would amount to Harry torture :>

~reena

Babblers of the world, unite!!!

[djinanna.livejournal.com]

No Harry torture! (Unless either Severus or Draco is there to make him feel better afterwards. Or Neville.)

OOC characterizations ... romanticizing evil/dark/sadistic bastards ... Er, um. ::hides romantic-hero!Snape behind chair:: How could they?!?

Seriously, I have no sympathy for the "well, he's got the same name as (fill in the evil/dark/sadistic bastard of choice), but he seems a fluffy bunny to me" OOC stuff. On the other hand, I'm willing to accept -- even embrace -- a wide spectrum of interpretations of a character.

>>Harry/Lucius, I think, is a specific non-connish(? often, anyway) type kink which might be what lets it coexist with the person's 'normal' empathy towards Harry<<

Ah yes. If I'm understanding you correctly, then I agree. In fact, I was trying to figure out how to phrase that concept in my previous comment and just couldn't get it to work.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

You probably already know how much I agree with every single word, but I'm glad you used your superpowers (for good and not evil) to code this reasonably and specifically.

I'm completely disillusioned re=people's explanations for their reactions to characters. What I mean is: I don't think people can or actually want to separate themselves from their emotions, because it's just another marker of self, this investment they (we?) have in some catalysts of themes (characters) which they want to see asserted.

Okay, dropping convoluted language: I think people react this badly and illogically to others not sharing their love/hate because they aren't thinking in terms of characters thus curious (or honest enough) to see the other side. Their love/hate is just Right, you know? Because their own issues projected on the characters ought to be right. So cue to all sort of false arguments and coping mechanisms to reassure yourself the other's explanation is faulty, no matter how much sincere or thought out.

I mean, it's the kind of mechanism I've seen recently used in re=Molly (although it's been done to just about every character, from Sirius to Snape to Draco to Harry to Hermione yadda yadda yadda). "Molly is a good person." "Her heart is in the right." "She's a good mother who loves her children and it's out of love that sometimes she makes mistakes." The problem is that these reasonings are not only so vague and general they don't actually say anything about the character ("he/she/it means well is such a manipulative travesty of a debate tactic, it could only applied to, you know, every character), but they came after more specific and especially not contradictory reasons were given. I agree that Molly makes mistakes out of love and means well etc. etc., but that's not what people were saying at all.

I think it's just too temptingly safe in some mindsets to ignore one's expressed issues because they're not your issues in favour of a general assumption that they're "not seeing your truth" (because they have a wrong moral/social platform, typically, like "not getting along with their mothers, or just being different which still seems so hard to accept). So in the end it's just like you said, the same old "I don't get it" non-argument, because if you don't get it, chances are, you're not trying to.

... This just wanted to be convoluted clearly.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I really viscerally disliked Frodo until I realised he was a compassionate messiah, yay! But let's not go there.

I just wanted to say that I don't find young Bush charming at all - he was not just stupid, he was also greedy and taking money from integralists which I don't find all that naively cute. I get the need to de-monster Bush because the (e)vilification is not only over-the-top and silly but also rabid and blinding, but I don't think I can ever get over the fact that he's so disgustingly hungry and not working for anyone except himself and his lobby and using mind-controlling censoring tactics and stupid-ass mass-appealing rethorics to cover it.

Right.

Actually what I wanted to say is that I agree with there -are- trends as to what kind of people will like certain kinds of characters, I just think that, as with character analysis, they don't get exposed for the pleasure of knowledge, you know? Usually someone will use a perceived/twisted trend to back up their stand that all Snape fans are bad boys lovers or all Molly haters don't get along with their moms or all Harry lovers are tools of the Man or whatnot.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't know how to tell you this, but I don't think 'The Man' (as over-arching ev0l entity of mass control) actually exists; this could be because I'm almost violently anti-paranoid the way some people are violently paranoid, but however. I was talking to S. (ze ex-now-best-friend) about this, and he said there's such a thing as the 'spirit' of The Man but not the Father or the Son o_0 Okay it made more sense when he said it ^^;;;;

I think huge over-arching mega-memes do exist and influence society and so on, but there's no organized system that one can isolate, I guess is the thing. Saying 'the Man' implies there's something like 'anti-Man', and I don't think that's a real separation. I see everyone as potentially controlling/Mannish (therefore, 'used' by the 'spirit' of The Man), but no actual Man. Er. Anyway.

By liking/being able to smile at younger!Bush, I didn't mean I found his politics admirable/palatable. Mostly, I don't judge people by their morality/politics, so aside from that, I found him palatable when taken in relation to his wife, at least. Plus he smiled okay. Some people don't even smile okay, and that's when I know I will never like you :)) Anyway, I can de-monster-fy anyone, really. I am pure Zen :D :D :D :D I am almost zen about Her Excellency, or would be if she wasn't in my face. See how zen? I AM TEH MASTAH. :D :D!! FEAR MY NON-WRATH!!1

Er. Actually, I think it helps that at base level, I can just disconnect from caring about most people, so it's all 'eh' to me. Maybe that's scarier than not being able to let go-- letting go too easily. Unless I'm directly personally invested (ie, I KNOW you), I can let go very easily with the right impetus. If I do know you very well, however, it takes a lot more effort, and sometimes years. I work on it, though. It's always a quest, to force myself not to care if it's 'inconvenient', y'know. Issues, wha--? (See... Remus... I get Remus-Sirius from Remus' pov. I get rage and switching it off and being angry like the wolf and then like 'fine then. fine. fine. fine.' until you believe it. wheee, REPRESSION! FUN FOR THE WHOLE FAMILY!)

*clutches Frodo to chest protectively*
I have a thing for hero-types, can you tell???? :>

[malafede.livejournal.com]

But I wasn't talking about the Man. I was talking about Bush, and things he's objectively done. -.- And I can't judge human Bush because I don't know him personally, and you can bet I will judge him as a politician since that's the way he influences my life (which is another pet-peeve since I'm not even American but he's so hellbent into minding my own european business) and like - he's the president of the USA. That's a big part of him even as a man.

That the Man only exists in spirit... well, I've always thought that. Of course I think the spirit of the Man has a great material influence on people's life and don't consider myself paranoid at all for it, so maybe me and S. were on different tracks. :)

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I really hate the fact that I'm supposed to care about politics's family. That's a depressingly annoying and annoyinglyy depressing cultural assumption/convention.

So everytime someone gets promoted as such a good family man I want to smash their face. (Bush lurves his family, Clinton was an adulterer! So what? He was a better politician for sure.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hehehe clearly at the most, we generally only disagree on precise details, not whole wide sweeping ethical views~:)) S. wasn't calling anyone paranoid... that's just me and my paranoia about paranoia. He's actually so moderate/diplomatic it hurts. Way more diplomatic/rational than I am, who sometimes goes off onto wild mad tangents of rage. Y'know. Heh.

I tend to like... try to perceive the 'man' or 'woman' inside everyone, 'cause that's always my overriding interest in people-- I see them all as individuals, or I cannot truly -see- them. Anyway, this was related to a biographical-type program on a news channel, so I saw pictures and heard interviews and stuff. But generally, I just see people in a personal light. Possibly too personal...? But it's what I jump to, whether I know them or not. Even complete strangers-- I speculate & even react based on my intuitive sense of what they're like. I'm just not very rationalistic so it's easy to just be like, 'well, he gives off such-and-such vibe' :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't mean I care he's a Good Family Man-- that's a cultural ideal/meme and you must know I'm generally immune to those~:))

It's more that I take my own perception (rather than whatever the propaganda is) on whether the person (politician or not) seems sincere-- emotional-- what his emotional range/nature is. It's just a question of different focus~:)

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I think the difference between us is best illustrated by the moments to which we jumped. :) For me, it was the moment when I could see it in his face, that very human helplessness when he realised his duties where larger than him.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

....greasy black horse <3<3<3<3<3<3<3

I hate the news these days & don't watch almost any tv, but. Maybe I'm just complacent 'cause I'm very hard to manipulate :>

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Ahaha, I just realised you were talking about the Man that makes Harry fans love Harry and - I listed that together with other stupidass theories like Molly haters also hate their mothers and Snape lovers want to be swept over his greasy black horse... so it's not like a I was saying it seriously. (I also was mocking myself but that's an inner joke between me and my id, right.)

Well, I understand your focusing on the man inside, I normally do that too, and you know how I detest the device of the monster... I was just pointing out that his politics are a part of him as a "man", too. Usually I don't trust much television on biographical stuff or portraits since they tend to be absurb/fake telenovela like patethic/sensationalists ploys for sympathy, and I especially get the impression he wouldn't mind posing to that effect at all... okay, I am maybe too militant/invested for this. But I really dislike television per se (the social concept of...?) I only watch fiction or the news, you know, stuff that don't imply I'm connecting to the world and other people wih an arbiter who thinks I don't see it when he's trying to manipulate me...

... rabidness.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm always focused on people's close personal relationships (not just romantic-- anyone they're really close to). It's funny in a way, I guess, 'cause I spent most of my life not being close to many people (maybe one-- my mother), but perhaps that's why I'm so fascinated. The few people I've really been very close to have defined me, and to understand me, you'd have to understand my relationship with them. Of course, to understand someone fully, you'd have to know all manner of social/individual/hard to quantify things, but... eh. This is all a matter of intuition and hard to explain, but yes. :>

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Me too, agree with every single word - again! But I was thinking one of these days that perhaps we are expecting people to react intellectually to things, when generally they react emotionally. And perhaps El-Jay is mostly a place for people to express their feelings - their most irrational feelings, sometimes. And you and most of your friends are exceptions.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

But see, for me it's different because I am *oppressed*.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

I know this is a very black-and-white way of seeing things, and that it's not always easy to separate intellectual thoughts and emotions. I know also that many times it's our feelings and not our intellect that permit us to understand a character. Anyway, I think I have a point in what I said, somewhere. *g*.

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

I think people react this badly and illogically to others not sharing their love/hate because they aren't thinking in terms of characters thus curious (or honest enough) to see the other side. Their love/hate is just Right, you know? Because their own issues projected on the characters ought to be right. So cue to all sort of false arguments and coping mechanisms to reassure yourself the other's explanation is faulty, no matter how much sincere or thought out.

Yes. I think a great deal of overidentification is also in the game here; that is, people who don't "understand" the hatred of their favourite characters, identify with them, or identify people they know with them, and they're doing it way too much, you know? I mean I identify with characters, or identify them with people I know all the time, myself, so I'm in no way blaming anyone for foing just that, but I do think that these persons do it to such an extent that they -on some level- forget, that they or the other people they recognise in these characters, in fact, are NOT these characters! And so, they take every bit of criticism highly personally, like someone has insulted them instead of the fictional character.

Basically the same thing tend to happen to people who don't (want to) "understand" why anyone likes the character they hate. They're usually projecting here too. I mean how many times haven't you seen people who will bash Draco and his fans in the same post use this argument: "I hate Malfoy, because when I was in school I was bullied by people just like him, and you Draco!Fangirls, you are just like the people who stood around and cheered when I was bullied. How can people think DRaco is hot and sexy in his leatherpants? They're saying it was OK, for the Dracos in my school to treat me the way they did!" (And, no, I'm actually not making this one up, though it's not a quote word by word.) It's like, dude, Draco Malfoy was never in your school, and most his fangirls probably weren't either.

So anyway, my point is that way too much projection into fictional characters in all probability has a lot to do with this. And yes, it's an easy way to make yourself feel superior of someone else as well, and neatly placing people into boxes, and paint the world so black and white so you can feel somewhat safer. These people (and I'm still referring to fans who try to villify, and in other way discredit, fans with different preferences of characters and ships, etc), seem quite insecure underneath all their "dead sure" arguments, so seeing the world in black and white, and not risking having your firmly set opinions challenged, by even listening to someone else's is a protection for that insecurity not to surface, I reckon.

Butting in with a *teeny* (and off-topic) point/opinion

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

I don't think 'The Man' (as over-arching ev0l entity of mass control) actually exists

I do -- to me 'The Man' is the status quo. Definitely an over-arching political/societal/economic entity of mass control. How evil it is relative, and highly dependent upon where you personally rank within it. For example, if you're one of the infinitesimal percentage of rich Americans who's benefitting from Bush's tax cuts and economic policy, The Man seems pretty benevolent. If you're one of the disproportionately large percentage of young, uneducated black men rotting in the bloated American prison system, The Man doesn't look so good.

[ralphspudlanyon.livejournal.com]

Agree, as always.

What makes me most annoyed is that I think there's a tendency to not only think that your point of view is the correct one (and no, not everybody does that) but then to admit that yeah, you hate Snape because he's a bully, unpleasant - whatever - but not see that your view is just as subjective as the ones who think he can do no wrong.

I tend to avoid the people who detest Snape, not so much because I can't see where they're coming from, but because it drives me crazy that they have so little awareness that their own bias colours their view of the character. If we didn't bring our own subjective reading to the text then I guess everyone would love Harry, hate Snape, love Hagrid, hate the Malfoys etc etc. I like Snape and I'm not sure why. I detest Remus Lupin and I do know why. He embodies characteristics that I despise, poor bastard, so he'll never get a fair crack of the whip from me. And I know that. I know that most people admire the qualities I despise in him and I really, really understand why he appears to be so widely loved - both by the author and pretty much all of fandom. My dislike of him is because of me, because of who I am, not really because of who he is, because who he is means something different to most of fandom than it does to me. And yeah I'm very much a Snape fan, but that's not why I don't like Remus and Sirius. And again that's another assumption that really gets my goat; that I'm bound not to like Potter Major et al because of what they did to poor 'Snapey-poo'. Well surprisingly enough that has very little to do with it. Bullying Snape didn't endear them to me, but it's the qualities they represent that I don't like. Had they never bullied Snape I still wouldn't have liked them. I. Just. Don't. Like. Them.

Funnily enough I can articulate the reasons why I don't like a character far more clearly than I can the reasons I do like them. I think it's because there are no characters I identify with on a personal level, but the ones I don't like remind me of or embody certain qualities found in people in real life or fiction that I just don't like. It's immediate and obvious. Which is why I can understand why people don't like Snape. And even though these same people may think the Marauders are the bees knees this doesn't make me despise them or conclude that they're seriously deluded. I just wish, probably vainly, that they'd offer me the same courtesy...

[mizbean.livejournal.com]

Agrees. Over-projection is a problem for me when I read threads about certain characters. My biggest peeve is when a poster will react to someone's opposing argument with "How can you say that?" or "How can you know what it's really like to be depressed, picked on, fill in the blank?" For one thing it's just rude to presume how one should feel about certain characters, or anything really. Secondly, just because I never suffered from depression, alcoholism, or whatever doesn't mean that I can't dislike or like a certain character for my very own reasons. Now, I'm starting to rant.

I admit, I project too. I admitted in yesterday's thread about Molly, that I feel protective of because of my own family history. And JKR projects too. She obviously had issues with boys like Draco growing up, which is why she seems to delight in humiliating him so.

Great discussion, by the way.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

The only one so far I haven't been able to see the other POV about is Lucius; I just hate Lucius. I'm really curious about *why* I hate him with such singlemindedness, and I know many disagree with me and I get why they do. I just disagree.

That's always what interests me too--why do I like/hate this character so much? It's not just that they're bad or good because lots of characters are that way without really catching my interest. The Lucius thing particularly interests me because I don't have very strong feelings about him, even though some of his behavior, like the way he treats Draco in the B&B scene, is a total pet peeve of mine.

In a way, I don't really relate to a lot of the interest in him. I'm interested in his relationship with Draco which I think is incredibly unhealthy, but I am more surprised by interest in him and Harry. I just don't really feel much about their relationship in canon at all. There's no chemistry there for me.

I have a friend who is a Spike fan and I'll never forget the first time we talked about it and realized we had such similar experiences--they're different characters, but we could completely understand each other anyway.