The man who didn't come to dinner

[sistermagpie]

I had a stray thought today while reading the various theories of Sirius being poisoned, mostly about why I like

Personally, in case anyone's interested, I don't think Sirius was poisoned, nor do I think he was acting reckless when he died. I tend to think that line about the potion is there so that *Harry* can start suspecting Snape of doing some reckless poisoning later, if it's there for any reason at all. Or perhaps the potion will come up later. Heh. It's like fanfic. Everybody knows when Snape introduces a potion in class *somebody* will be accidentally ingesting it by the end of the fic, and it will probably lead to sex somehow.

Anyway, one thing that's been brought up with regards to Snape poisoning someone is his not eating any food at Grimmauld Place--something one might avoid if one knew the food was poisoned. I think again, that would be a little too obvious, like in We Have Always Lived In The Castle when a character is widely considered a murderer because her family was poisoned through the sugar bowl and everyone knows Constance never takes sugar. Regardless, what's interesting is how the topic of Snape's not eating has become an issue.

Technically, I don't think we know he doesn't eat anything at Grimmauld Place, though I suspect he doesn't. I think we're just told he "never stays for dinner." People have said, reasonably, that he doesn't stay for dinner because he doesn't want to socialize with these people any more than he has to. For all we know he's also got a truckload of other responsibilities somewhere. Maybe he's moonlighting at a fast food place in Hogsmeade. We don't know.

But I realized another reason I like the idea of Snape not eating at the place. I'm pretty sure there's a passage in The Count of Monte Cristo, that deals with the hero not eating. Now, I read CoMC (hmm. same initials as Care of Magical Creatures...) in French so for all I know I made up the entire scene through my bad translation and Edmund really refused to remove his galoshes indoors, but I seem to remember that what happened was the Count went to a party at the home of his former fiancé and her husband, one of the conspirators who got him sent to prison for 19 years. Mercedes, his former love, recognizes him as Edmund. She keeps the secret but gets very upset when he refuses an hors d'oeuvre. I mean, seriously upset. She's just frantic that he try her canapé--wtf?

Later it's revealed this is because refusing to eat is a point of honor--you do not accept food in your enemy's house. It appears to be something one could start a duel with if one wanted. Now, it's kind of funny to draw a parallel between Snape and Edmund, since in this story the character most like Edmund would be the guy who spent 13 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit and then broke out. Snape isn't responsible for putting Sirius in prison, though, and Sirius doesn't seem much for archaic traditions. Snape, otoh, I can definitely see holding a Monte Cristo-type grudge and privately vowing never to eat food served in the house of his enemy. Not that anyone would notice--well, other Slytherins might, but they’re not going to be invited to dinner by Molly either.

Snape is, after all, the character in canon who feels bound by a life debt because James Potter was moved to stop a prank by his best friend that never should have happened to begin with--I suspect if there were a fair court of law about such things Snape would be cleared of any life debtedness. Harry, by contrast, appears to feel under no such obligation to Snape for his protection. So if somebody were going to do something like this it would be Snape, imo. I doubt this was the author's intention, but it just seems very Snape to me.

Comments

Re: I continue to obsess over the prank...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

True--Personally, I never think of James' saving Snape to have anything to do with James risking his life just because I don't imagine that being the important part of it. It seems much more like the Shack with Harry--the important part was that he stepped in and said, "No, let's not do this." Partly because it's just hard to come up with a scenario where James had to risk his life since he was an animagus. If he refused to transform to keep his secret that would be his choice, just as Remus chose to keep it secret in PoA despite thinking it put Harry in danger. Clearly that wouldn't be about doing what was right but loyalty again.

Still, it's hard to believe that Dumbledore being the all-knowing person he is often hinted at being wouldn't have been able to easily find out what they were up to if he'd made the least bit of effort. I do think he'd have suspected it because a) he's Dumbledore and always suspects the right things b) he knows these boys and c) it's hard to believe they were all that discreet. If you're going to nickname yourselves, "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs," and have conversations like, "One, he's wearing my clothes..." how secret was it?

Obviously for the plot it needed not to be known so I can accept that, but thinking realistically I do find myself assuming that Dumbledore did a lot of looking the other way and Snape picked up on it.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah--like I think I said to someone else, it's far more difficult for me to imagine Snape putting himself through that than it is for me to come up with reasons for him to leave. He's not wanted for dinner, so why would he stay?

I'm not entirely sure that Dumbledore would even be (consciously) using it for manipulation, though it would be IC. I think it's more that that's how he sees the system working because it's what his own moral code tells him is important.

Yes, I think that's the way it works too. Neotoma mentioned the Bush administration above and I think it is a little similar (this will perhaps become the new Godwin's Law;-) in just saying that I don't think Dumbledore is consciously deceitful, he just automatically associates what is good for him as right. I mean, look at the way he brushed off Harry's horrible upbringing by saying he was trying to do his best and really didn't do too bad a job of it. Or suddenly deciding to talk about behavior having consequences with regards to Sirius and Kreacher of all people--and even then not getting it right--while the only mistake he admits to himself is not forseeing how badly other people will behave.

Ahem. So yeah, I don't think Dumbledore was ever thinking, "Ah, I will get Snape in line by making him owe James." I can see it happening much the way it would with Harry: Dumbledore is focused on James and sees things in terms of James' development. He's pleased that James has made the right decision in saving Snape and so it is important that Snape recognize this wonderful thing that Snape as done. And perhaps, Dumbledore may have incorrectly thought, seeing it this way would inspire Snape to see what a great guy James was too. I don't think it was primarily about manipulating Snape into doing anything--at least not yet--because after all, all this would have been before Snape became a Death Eater. I suspect the life debt may have been something Dumbledore pulled out more later when he needed Harry protected. Hmmmmm...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah! (God your archival powers are amazing! *bows to you*)

And I can see from one pov it is more important, because when somebody is a real thorn in your side it is pleasant to think of a world without them. But still I think most people would still, when confronted with the person bleeding on the floor, be freaked out before they were pleased at this turn of events.

Unless, of course, the person has screwed up priorities--like above where I was talking to arclavel about the possibility of James getting hurt saving Snape because he refused to transform and so reveal their secret, or Remus refusing to reveal the secret in PoA. That, to me, is more just screwed up priorities, like when a drug user calls 911 because their friend has overdosed but won't say what they took because their priority is covering up drug use so they don't get caught.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

That's why I don't particularly like the resolutions for Neville and Ron in OotP.
Especially that part where McGonagall, usually strict to the point where she appears disgusted by weakness (her description of Peter, her treatment of Neville in PoA and even GoF when she asks him, basically, not to let on how incompetent he is to the visitors); is all 'Your problem is a lack of confidence.'
I mean, that's so general it could apply to anyone and anything. Not good at science? Lack of confidence. Bad at sports? Ditto.
It's this idea that there are always excuses made for the 'good' guys (ironic, considering the reputation Slytherin fans have as 'apologists'!) - Harry didn't get picked for sports in primary? OMG, it can't be because he was no good. He's liek rilly fast, it's just that everyone was scared of Dudley.
(skelkins actually wrote an essay on Calvinism in this series, which touches on this point. http://elkins.theennead.com/hp/archives/000149.html#top)

Hermione suffers from the terrible prejudice against muggleborns (which is never ever shown. Why, it's just like racism, as JKR compares it. Except we've never seen any indication that Muggleborns suffer either judicially (are more Muggleborns convicted/sentenced for longer?) or financially (are Muggleborns hired for less jobs? Is there a glass ceiling for them specifically?) But one person called her a derogatory name, so she is clearly TEH OPPRESSED) but is in actual fact, extremely talented at magic.
Someone actually explained their problem with this theme, and D/Hr as a ship in specific:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ataniell93/287658.html?thread=1867690#t1867690

"Draco sees value in *Hermione* in this ship, not every other Gryffindor and Muggleborn who ever walked! He would either de-Muggle her by self-arguing about how *very* Wizardish she is, how bright she is, how much-- essentially-- she's not what she really is. Or else it would be how the rest of her category suffers in comparison to her-- Muggleborns are all that much worse because they're not only mudblooded, but *stupid* compared to his girlfriend."

Likewise, Neville fails not because he is cowardly (heavens forbid, a flaw!) or untalented, but because he lacks confidence.
And as soon as he meets the standards of Harry and co by succeeding in duelling and hexing as opposed to Herbology which has no value in their eyes; he's suddenly able to accomplish wondrous feats. Aren't you relieved that he wasn't something icky, like stupid? Now he can go around attacking people like the rest of them - KEWL!

But of course, it doesn't apply both ways - Crabbe and Goyle for example? They don't suffer from low self esteem. They're just dumb. Yuck.
And even though it's shallow to judge others by looks (the presentation of Veela for example, or sexualised females in general)? Hermione is actually really pretty. Not Pansy though. Not that it's important to be female and attractive. Just that Pansy isn't, Hermione is.
Convenient, that.

Ron isn't quite so grievous an example (maybe because he's pureblood, and they're all stupid/ugly etc.) but still, the Quidditch match kind of irritated me. Not so much the chant change (although that was so twee it reminded me of a book in the 'Sweet Valley Twins: Unicorn Club: The Crazy Eights who are the Unicorn's sworn enemies, challenge our heroes to a bet. The Unicorns' stakes are that the loser has to sing 'Puff the Magic Dragon' in the cafeteria. Unfortunately, the Unicorns lose (it's a 'How much do you know about your friends?' quiz. Luckily, they realise that they lost because they're more individual ((and thus, better ;)) than the Eights!) and have to sing. However, they turn the tables on those mean old 8s and perform a 'cool' rap, to the acclaim of the school.
And now I've frightened myself ;)
But just the 'Look, Ron was just intimidated by Fred and George. And Harry's talent. Once they were all gone, it turns out he's really good!'
Again, it doesn't work both ways - Draco's not intimidated by Harry, or Flint, or his father. He's just not as good. Ew.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's kind of interesting when you think of all the fanfics that use the convention that way. It's hard to believe that realistically Harry, Ron and Hermione wouldn't have major revelations just walking down the hall as Crabbe, Goyle and Millicent. In the book it's played more as a joke on Crabbe and Goyle--if a random person looks repulsed when talking to them it's only correct because they're big hulking brutes.

And yes, the insults are carefully all kept centered on the plot and far away from anything actually insulting. It just reinforces how screwed up Malfoy is, really. The few times Malfoy does hit a mark Harry can just feel sorry for the other person. I do especially like the Colin bit for that reason--if anybody else had done that impression Harry would have been rolling in the aisles. And I wouldn't hold it against him, either, given the stress of having Colin follow him around. Once again Malfoy just "inspires" him to be a better person.:-)

[trobadora]

Ooooh! There is so little of this pairing (or this threesome) that I squee like mad every time I find something new. You'll drop me a link if you really do write it, won't you? Pretty please?!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's how I see it too. I don't think Sirius had murder on his mind at all, but I would HATE to have been Snape in that situation. I imagine he wound up feeling like Dumbledore was almost in on the joke too--I mean, feeling like the Gryffindors were just one big happy family and one of the boys had done something rather naughty but there there, wasn't James fantastic and let's all have cocoa. And meanwhile here's Snape who probably got scolded for trying to get the Gryffs in trouble (Dumbledore does tend to have quite the double standard on sneaking and initiative that way) and joshed about not taking everything so seriously and let's praise James some more. There are so many things for him to feel bitter about.

[trobadora]

Good point about the difference between the two generations - there's really a much better reason for making exceptions for Harry than there ever was for any of the Marauders. Or there would be, if I weren't completely convinced that most of this special treatment is counter-productive in the long term.

And as for the "Dark Arts" - I wish that were more than just a nifty expression to label someone as "evil"! Whatever they may be, there must be more to it than "he uses them because he's evil, and he's evil because he uses them", which is about all we have at this point.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes! Like I said above, it would be like having something happen to you and then you're in this room of jolly Gryffindors and everyone's laughing about it and congratulating the person you're the most angry at.

It's sort of like how in a conversation recently people were referring to the "charmed circle"--oh, it was the one about Snape being redeemed by love, which always gets into this idea that Harry's greatest gift is somehow being deserving of love in ways other people aren't, or able to love in ways other people aren't, and unfortunately for all the talk about Slytherins freezing themselves out with their dreadful views on who should be accepted into society, it's more these people that seem to put themselves above the rest of the world, somehow.

[tasogare-n-hime.livejournal.com]

Of course, and just incase your interested here is a link to my SS/RL/SB cammunity wolf_dog_snake. not to much there yet but we have some great recs and challanges.
http://www.livejournal.com/community/wolf_dog_snake/

[trobadora]

I know that community, and I think I've already read every bit of fic linked there. Thanks for the link, anyway!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ugh. That's exactly it--and I am so looking forward to the Calvinism essay. *rubs hands together*

As I think Elkins said in her other essay about Neville, the frustrating thing isn't that Neville must be useless, because he's *not*. It's that he must turn out to be exactly like the "right" people in order to prove it. What's particularly annoying to me is that hey, there are things I suck at. I always think of potions as being a lot like chemistry and I could. not. do. chemistry. at. all. There were subjects I was good at, just as Neville is good at herbology. He doesn't have to become super good at duelling, particularly not because *boom* this year he's going to be good at duelling (I mean, c'mon, was he not working hard before? Is Harry that much of a better teacher? Is it his new bloodlust that makes him suddenly quicker on his feet?). I'd appreciate it more, frankly, if Neville worked hard and didn't become that much of a star and still had problems--while meanwhile just having the talents he actually does have and growing in those.

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

'God damn stupid Ron and Hermione, they never risk anything like Wonderful Me!

Oooh, I forgot all about that. Yes, poor Harry, it's so tragic to be ALL ALONE, and marked for death, and the Chosen One, and I'm totally mixing up my fandoms with Self Absorbed Whiny Leads here.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Buffy/Harry would be a thing of beauty, man. Their egos would match size, their self-absorption levels would equal, they'd fall instantly in love, and run off to a desert island together, leaving the rest of the world thrilled.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

And meanwhile here's Snape who probably got scolded for trying to get the Gryffs in trouble (Dumbledore does tend to have quite the double standard on sneaking and initiative that way)

I'm now imagining a McGonagall style 'Well, then you both get in trouble' resolution, with Sirius and James smirking and Snape PLOTTING TO KILL THEM ALL!11 ;)

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I agree. Additionally, we know he knew a lot of curses when he entered and was "very interested in the Dark Arts." We see him shooting down flies, though we don't know exactly what that means. But when he's ambushed, he's *completely* outmatched. All he manages to do is a quick slash across the face. I don't disagree that he practiced them, or that he did some nasty stuff to his classmates, but I really can't take his big, bad, Dark Arts-practitioner reputation quite at face value.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I like Neville, and always have. I thought McGonagall said his problem was a lack of concentration, not confidence, but either way, this was pretty close to my (and others') theory before OotP came out, but it had nothing to do with excusing/denying Neville's problems. The opposite, if anything. Basically, the idea was that Neville was seen as a very weak wizard and called himself "nearly a Squib." But that was nonsense. He frequently screwed things up, but he did so in dramatic fashion -- things exploded, table legs disappeared. IOW, lots and lots of power, absolutely no control. Which is, indeed, his own fault (though there were also psychological theories about said lack of control). Except, of course, that using someone else's wand really *could* lead to being unusually bad; I don't like that reason, but it is at least partly canon. (I wonder how many people start their Hogwarts career with a hand-me-down wand? We know of at least two.)

I also don't like the idea of Neville conforming to other people's standards of what's right or great. I could theorize that his dueling improvement is, as Harry noted, due to motivation from the Lestranges' escape, but he was improving noticeably before that. I have no theories beyond the fact that teenagers can change drastically.

I don't like the memory charm, but it seems like something that "helpful" wizards would do. Though I agree that if Neville was there, they'd have tortured him.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

My problem isn't that Neville can't improve at things since hard work and concentration could be worked on. Neville already has done that--he excels in herbology, he's not completely hopeless at everything. There's times when he's more suave than Harry and Ron and that doesn't bother me. But I admit I will dislike his character immensely if it turns out he was really superior and artificially held back either through memory charms, the wrong wand, or just suddenly clicking maybe because it fits into Elkins' essay too well. My biggest struggle with Neville is that I like him personally as a character but always find myself pulling against the lesson he seems to be about in canon--sometimes he's like the broccoli of the Potterverse to me. So I'd prefer if the parts of Neville that I do like were the ones that ultimately defined him and not the storylines that make me think broccoli.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I like this. The more I read, the more I think that Dumbledore really has no clue how to handle anybody's emotions but his own, but he thinks he's really good with them. Half of his explanations to Harry involve why people act the way they do, and they almost never make sense. Especially when the person being discussed is Snape. Yet he's usually portrayed in fic as this über-mentor who understands what makes everyone tick and can give personalized advice perfectly designed to motivate or console or whatnot this person alone, and I think that's rather how he sees himself.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

No kidding. I like PoA, I think it's the best constructed of the five thus far. But it still suffers from the same moral lapses, even if they aren't as frequent (I think). There's about a dozen really good reasons why Sirius and Remus shouldn't kill Peter, and Harry stops them because James wouldn't have wanted his best friends to be murderers because of Peter?? WTF?!? A, James has been dead for 12 years; find your own reasons to act. B, James would have wanted them to be murderers if the victim was more worthy? C, are you nuts??? It's an incredibly stupid thing to do!

Please excuse the over-punctuation of this post; it needed it.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

I really quite like both Buffy and Harry. And with both of them, I sometimes wonder why. Must be because they're fun to analyze. But I tend to have more sympathy for Buffy.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

One of the best fanfic takes on this I've read (which is actually set the next day) has several teachers having a conference with the boys present to discuss punishment, with very little said about the genuine risk to a student's life. The end result (which seems pretty likely) is that Sirius loses 100 points for putting a student in danger, James gains 50 points for a heroic rescue, and Snape loses 30 points for being out of bed. Net result, as Snape sees it, is that his life is worth 20 points. The fic ends with Lucius (written pre-OotP) feeling genuinely very bad for Snape but also being quite pleased because it will make recruiting him *so* much easier.

And so many Slytherins joined the side opposing Dumbledore because they're innately evil and the Gryffindors are innately good. Riiight.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I just have to say that sounds like a *fabulous* take on it and very very believable. I can imagine decades later that Snape is the only one who could still recite exactly how many points were given or taken for what reason.

[iczer6.livejournal.com]

For all we know he's also got a truckload of other responsibilities somewhere. Maybe he's moonlighting at a fast food place in Hogsmeade. We don't know.

Well Snape is the only teacher for a rather complex class. I can honestly see him as having better things to do, like setting up lesson plans, then hang a bunch of people he doesn't like all that much.

Or maybe he just hates Molly and Sirius's cooking, if anything I'd think he'd avoid eating there because the Weasley twins stay there and they have a habit of altering food for pranks.


Icz

[iczer6.livejournal.com]

Draco didn't know the animal was dangerous, but it was him insulting it that caused his injury.

But the thing is that Draco DID know Buckbeak was dangerous, Hagrid had just explained how to approach a Hippogriff and even had Harry demonstrate, Draco acted like an ass and got a well earned beat down, no sympathy from me.