This is a great post, and I think I agree with you almost totally -- even your partial correction of what I said about Draco.
Thanks! I didn't even think of it as a correction--you were right, and that's what made me think about exactly what is it that makes people always associate this character with cowardice.
When it comes to classic definitions of the virtues, Aristotle is always there with something handy:
Ah, Aristotle. *sips cognac*
So maybe the Slytherin vice mentioned by Phineas isn't self-interest, per se -- healthy selfishness ought to be one factor in good judgment -- but a reluctance to put self-interest aside when you're sizing up a situation coldly and dealing with it and you have wider responsibilities to answer to.
That does seem like it could be the problem with Phineas' point. It's not so much that self-interest is always bad, because being with someone who's so unstable he doesn't look after himself at all could cause trouble too, as you pointed out. Sirius is sort of fighting with that himself in OotP when he tells the twins they have to put the safety of the Order above Arthur...but then he can't wait to run off and get killed.
But to take the idea that courage is at the basis of all virtues, Phineas could be saying that a Slytherin can only act so far as it won't inconvenience him, so he's never going to risk his life at all. I don't think this is exactly true, since we've seen Slytherins risk their lives, so they might just do it in a different frame of mind.
Which brings us to the idea that you could see any virtue as the basis for the others the same way. I think that's the basis for a lot of personality test systems. Whatever virtue is your basis is the one you use to reach for all the others. So if you're thing is that you're honest your honesty would give you courage. So while striving for courage might inspire Gryffs to be other good things, so could ambition lead a Slytherin to do something courageous.
Is there anything lamer than a jerk who thinks it's "courageous" to be a jerk, and uses as evidence the fact that everyone despises him?
Right--and this kind of thing can be explored when you've got a house full of people who are sorted for courage. It's like in the CoS rereads when we had a good discussion about what house Lockhart was in. Many people assume Slytherin because he's bad, cowardly and ambitious, but I like to think of him as a Gryffindor who loved the ideal of courage but then settled for the trappings of it without the real thing.
At last check I had a rambling 2-1/2 page draft,
Wow! Naturally the idea that you were too cowardly to reply hadn't occurred to me.:-)
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Date: 2005-02-09 06:35 pm (UTC)Thanks! I didn't even think of it as a correction--you were right, and that's what made me think about exactly what is it that makes people always associate this character with cowardice.
When it comes to classic definitions of the virtues, Aristotle is always there with something handy:
Ah, Aristotle. *sips cognac*
So maybe the Slytherin vice mentioned by Phineas isn't self-interest, per se -- healthy selfishness ought to be one factor in good judgment -- but a reluctance to put self-interest aside when you're sizing up a situation coldly and dealing with it and you have wider responsibilities to answer to.
That does seem like it could be the problem with Phineas' point. It's not so much that self-interest is always bad, because being with someone who's so unstable he doesn't look after himself at all could cause trouble too, as you pointed out. Sirius is sort of fighting with that himself in OotP when he tells the twins they have to put the safety of the Order above Arthur...but then he can't wait to run off and get killed.
But to take the idea that courage is at the basis of all virtues, Phineas could be saying that a Slytherin can only act so far as it won't inconvenience him, so he's never going to risk his life at all. I don't think this is exactly true, since we've seen Slytherins risk their lives, so they might just do it in a different frame of mind.
Which brings us to the idea that you could see any virtue as the basis for the others the same way. I think that's the basis for a lot of personality test systems. Whatever virtue is your basis is the one you use to reach for all the others. So if you're thing is that you're honest your honesty would give you courage. So while striving for courage might inspire Gryffs to be other good things, so could ambition lead a Slytherin to do something courageous.
Is there anything lamer than a jerk who thinks it's "courageous" to be a jerk, and uses as evidence the fact that everyone despises him?
Right--and this kind of thing can be explored when you've got a house full of people who are sorted for courage. It's like in the CoS rereads when we had a good discussion about what house Lockhart was in. Many people assume Slytherin because he's bad, cowardly and ambitious, but I like to think of him as a Gryffindor who loved the ideal of courage but then settled for the trappings of it without the real thing.
At last check I had a rambling 2-1/2 page draft,
Wow! Naturally the idea that you were too cowardly to reply hadn't occurred to me.:-)