The Dying Gaul

[sistermagpie]

So...Ravenclaw then? :-D



That poll was so funny I made a new icon. That claw in the picture is the closest I could find to a raven--and at least it's closer than a fricken' eagle. What is up with that? I sometimes suspect it's just a case of corvid discrimination--ravens are associated with death and dark magic. Eagles are brave. I mean, it's a school for witchcraft. Why would you avoid the raven? Lion, Badger, Raven and Snake...makes it sound more like two against two to me, somehow. (ETA: My new conspiracy theory being that eventually the Ravenclaws will be revealed to have been the real bad guys, fanning the flames between Slytherin and Gryffindor and then feeding on the corpses! Mwahahaha!)

I'm happy to see I have people from all four houses on my flist, and they're all cool. And no doubt there are people everywhere who would fit into all four houses who are completely annoying.

As for speaking about "my own" house, it's funny...I always get the feeling Ravenclaw's a little suspicious. Not that this bothers me at all. I remember doing a post on FAP pre-OotP where I said that while I had no proof whatsoever of this, I always felt like if the houses were ranked Ravenclaw would be the closest to Slytherin, with intelligence and cunning both being a little dodgy because it's your heart that's most important. Like I said, I had no real reason for feeling that way, but I was sure not surprised to see Marietta (and Cho) turn out to be the bad guys in the DA. Well, first I was amazed anybody fell for Zach Smith being the bad guy. First, he was completely upfront all the time. And second, he really didn't challenge Harry's ideals. He challenged Harry's *strength* and basically demanded that Harry make him trust him, but his pov but he wasn't questioning any principles. If he was asking questions for real answers, Harry and the others could hardly shut him up with one-liners. They'd have to explain things. Zach tests Harry's authority and Harry passes.

It's a very different thing from the little we know about Marietta, which is that she has a mother who works at the Ministry and isn't sure her mother isn't right. Marietta doesn't ask questions, she just observes sourly. With Cho, too, more than once I've heard people get angry at her for "trying to get Harry on her side" about Marietta when I really don't think Cho asks Harry to be on her side at all. She asks him to understand where Marietta is coming from, to put her actions in context with the rest of her personality: she's a lovely person, she just made a mistake. I just thought it was interesting given that I always got this vibe that people act mostly out of their head (which Hermione does not) are suspicious, and that trying to understand the other side is probably considered the first step towards joining it.

Meanwhile, last night I went to see The Dying Gaul. an as-yet unfinished movie written and directed by Craig Lucas starring Campbell Scott, Patricia Clarkson and Peter Sarsgaard. Actually, it was a tribute to Campbell Scott and I was helping out petitesoeur.

Celebs in attendence were Craig Lucas, Campbell Scott, Peter Sarsgaard, Patricia Clarkson, Mary Louise Parker and a couple of Baldwin brothers. But the best person was somebody I saw--or heard--beforehand. I got a bite to eat in the cafeteria with the SAB students, so it was me and a lot of tiny girls with buns and pretty boys eating salads and frozen yogurt. Next to me there was a bunch of kids, one of whom was explaining how when he turned 18 he came into his trust fund of a million dollars. I didn't catch exactly where this money came from, but his siblings got that much money too, though sadly, mom and dad were cut out of it. They seemed to be doing okay, though, because they owned several buildings, including the one in which they occupied a couple of floors. Trusty (as I called him) had never done anything for himself, but he was not planning to just live off his wealth. No, he was going to go to college for fashion and then for journalism so he could write for some publication I didn't catch--Vogue? (Strangely, he appeared to be saying this to impress the girls at his table.)

My favorite part was when he explained he'd never made a meal for himself, but he had watched his cook make his meals, did that count? Why did he watch the cook making his meals? the others wanted to know. "Well," he said. "Sometimes the cook fucks up and I have to make him do it again." Btw, he totally looked like he could be Draco. Hee!

Comments

Not to get political, but....

[wheelerwoolsey.livejournal.com]

That 18-year-old kid is the reason why it's VITAL that Bush's tax cuts remain permanent. I can't think of anyone who deserves it more than that very productive member of society....

Re: Not to get political, but....

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I know. ::sniff:: Children are our future.

[biichan.livejournal.com]

Dude, I so totally get what you're saying about Ravenclaw being 'suspicious.' They need to band together with the Slytherins, make the fight equal.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I admit, I love stories where the Ravenclaws get along with the Slytherins. Slytherclaw unite!

[hellspoette.livejournal.com]

...which is why they have to be stopped!

As for speaking about "my own" house, it's funny...I always get the feeling Ravenclaw's a little suspicious. Not that this bothers me at all. I remember doing a post on FAP pre-OotP where I said that while I had no proof whatsoever of this, I always felt like if the houses were ranked Ravenclaw would be the closest to Slytherin, with intelligence and cunning both being a little dodgy because it's your heart that's most important.

I've always felt the same way. Generally, to be intelligent is to be aware of the Slytherin tactics available in any given situation. Again that whole "it's the choices that determine..." thingie comes to mind. I think it's possible to be aware and a bit cunning without being completely manipulative. I imagine there would always be some bleed-through when it comes to House qualities; on the other hand I just love classifying everyone around me and sticking them in a House. I find that the descriptions hold essentially true. I also believe someone can think themselves a right old Gryffindor and actually turn out to possess all the qualities of Slytherin. But I'm getting away from myself... in my head I always tied Ravenclaw & Slytherin together, with the same going for Hufflepuff & Gryffindor. I consider myself something of a Ravenclaw, and find it hard to handle the, er, as you put it "thinking out of your head" qualities of Gryffindor and (some) Hufflepuffs (the ceaseless loyalty thing can be a bit scary at times).

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I also believe someone can think themselves a right old Gryffindor and actually turn out to possess all the qualities of Slytherin. But I'm getting away from myself... in my head I always tied Ravenclaw & Slytherin together, with the same going for Hufflepuff & Gryffindor. I consider myself something of a Ravenclaw, and find it hard to handle the, er, as you put it "thinking out of your head" qualities of Gryffindor and (some) Hufflepuffs (the ceaseless loyalty thing can be a bit scary at times).

Yes, this just seems to make sense to me on some level. I've always privately thought of Hufflepuff as "Gryffindor Junior," not meaning to put down Hufflepuff but just thinking that it seems like that's the way the Gryffs in canon seem to see them.

[latxcvi.livejournal.com]

I imagine there would always be some bleed-through when it comes to House qualities; on the other hand I just love classifying everyone around me and sticking them in a House.

Well, I think your supposition is supported by the series itself: Hermione has canonically been described on more than one occasion as the "cleverest" or "brightest" witch of her age, yet she's in Gryffindor rather than Ravenclaw. Cedric was regularly described as brave (as well as handsome and smart), but he was sorted into Hufflepuff instead of Gryffindor. For the first four books, it was difficult to see how Neville ended up in Gryffindor yet he rose to that House's primary quality - bravery/courage - when push came to shove in OotP. Percy was a Gryffindor but certainly his ambition would have made him right at home in Slytherin. And for all of Peter Pettigrew's craven, sniveling, friend-betraying support of Voldemort he was sorted into Gryffindor, which means (if the Sorting Hat is never wrong) that there's some brave nobility in him *somewhere*.

I think it *can* reasonably be argued that a House's "traits" are not solely confined to those students who've been sorted into said House. Which makes sense, of course, because even in RL, we may have dominant personality traits and characteristics, but those dominant qualities are not the *only* ones we possess.

[morgan-d.livejournal.com]

Loved your icon. Reminds me of the opening credits of Six Feet Under.

And I was thinking that if JKR identifies with Gryffindor, it'd be only natural for her to resent the Ravenclaws -- you know, the annoying ones who keep studying details, checking the maths and keeping track of everything. ^__^

Seriously, I find it so amusing that in the same interview she said, "I'm a coward" and "If someone deserves to be a Gryffindor, it's me."

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I love that wording 'deserves' as if it's some kind of reward.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Loved your icon. Reminds me of the opening credits of Six Feet Under.

Well spotted--it IS the opening credits of Six Feet Under.:-)

Seriously, I find it so amusing that in the same interview she said, "I'm a coward" and "If someone deserves to be a Gryffindor, it's me."

"Deserves" to be? That's odd. So much for any pretense that this isn't a value judgment--though didn't she somewhere say she thought she'd be in Ravenclaw? I think it may have been pre-OotP...

thanks for lending a hand

[petitesoeur.livejournal.com]

you looked gorgeous & i've got the pictures to prove it
http://pics.livejournal.com/petitesoeur/pic/0000zf3r/g2

Re: thanks for lending a hand

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ack! There I am with the gift bags.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

My own take on the Houses has been over on Red Hen for the past couple of years at least. I suspect the biggest reason for the reservations about Ravenclaw is that we never see them sharing a class with the Gryffindors.

Proably because those particular two Houses would be far too volitale a combination. Even the Gryffs & the Slyths don't get into as many fights as the Gryffs & the "Claws would.

[mediumajaxwench.livejournal.com]

Could you imagine what knowlegde-focused presumably focused students would think of Harry and Ron getting answers from Hermione all the time? And what they'd do to retaliate?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Good point--it would be pretty funny to watch the Gryffs and Claws in a class if the Claws were showing some personality. But yes, also up until now they've always just been a distant house, without being disliked like Slytherin. The Hufflepuffs seem to have more to do with the Gryffindors even outside of class, sometimes, but that may just be a product of which ones we happen to see.

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

I just thought it was interesting given that I always got this vibe that people act mostly out of their head (which Hermione does not) are suspicious

Starting from the premise that JKR is a Gryffindor sympathizer, I wonder if Ravenclaws are just the House that's most incomprehensible to Gryffindors. I mean, the G's are all about action, so they understand Slytherin cunning because it's directed at a purposeful end, even if they're uneasy about the means. And the Hufflepuffs slog away dutifully with a purpose and probably make excellent cannon fodder for Gryffindor lieuenants. But the characteristic Ravenclaw posture -- slightly distant, analytical, skeptical, self-contained, not needing to act if they can have the pleasure of contemplation and judgment -- must just freak our G's right out of their little lion hearts. What are they up to? Why are they so quiet? What are they thinking?

Congratulations on your poll! Some things are, indeed, almost uniformly acknowledged in this world. :) Personally, I would love to be in Ravenclaw, but I suspect I am at best a Hufflepuff with Ravenclaw tendencies. Alas, earwax!

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Why are they so quiet? What are they thinking?

Why do they keep asking questions instead of just seeing that they need to do what we say?!

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

I remember doing a post on FAP pre-OotP where I said that while I had no proof whatsoever of this, I always felt like if the houses were ranked Ravenclaw would be the closest to Slytherin, with intelligence and cunning both being a little dodgy because it's your heart that's most important.

That's the vibe I got too, especially given Rowling's admiration of heart and loyalty over intelligence (Hagrid, anyone?). Actually, I always thought of Ravenclaws and Slytherins tolerating each other, while at the same time feeling some contempt for the other two Houses. Ravenclaws are just better at hiding it. Slytherins, for all their alledged 'cunning', are pretty bad at not telegraphing their intentions and loyalties in canon.

and that trying to understand the other side is probably considered the first step towards joining it.

Hence the need for a 'forbidden' section in the Library. And according to Sirius, wasn't the very fact that Snape knew dark curses and spells proof of his untrusworthiness.

On a side note, I am very amused by your RL!Draco encounter. Methinks Trusty needs a real hard kick from Lady Reality, but what are the odds of that happening.

My favorite part was when he explained he'd never made a meal for himself, but he had watched his cook make his meals, did that count?

*facepalm*

For some reason, that reminds me of that joke where the teacher asks the children to right an essay about a poor family, and Spoiled Little Rich Kid wrote 'There was once a Very Poor Family. The father was poor, the mother was poor, the kids were poor, the chauffeur was poor, the maid was poor, the nanny was poor, etc...'

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Actually, I always thought of Ravenclaws and Slytherins tolerating each other, while at the same time feeling some contempt for the other two Houses. Ravenclaws are just better at hiding it. Slytherins, for all their alledged 'cunning', are pretty bad at not telegraphing their intentions and loyalties in canon.

Heh--I sort of love the idea that the more interesting Ravenclaws are friends with Slytherins. It's fun to think of that house as being the one that mixes most with other houses, seeing no reason to be super loyal to only the people you sleep close to in school. So there'd be some who were friends with Gryffindors (and perhaps didn't have all the best things to say about that), some with Hufflepuffs, some with Slytherins.

Hence the need for a 'forbidden' section in the Library. And according to Sirius, wasn't the very fact that Snape knew dark curses and spells proof of his untrusworthiness.

Yup--and Hermione gets a pass to that forbidden section because she's "good," so couldn't possibly be using what she learns there to bad ends.

For some reason, that reminds me of that joke where the teacher asks the children to right an essay about a poor family, and Spoiled Little Rich Kid wrote 'There was once a Very Poor Family. The father was poor, the mother was poor, the kids were poor, the chauffeur was poor, the maid was poor, the nanny was poor, etc...'

LOL! It's like that line from "A Diamond as Big as the Ritz" where one character says something like, "Think of the millions and millions of people in the world, laborers and all, who get along with only two maids."

[samaranth.livejournal.com]

I always was in the blue house at school, both in primary (‘Paterson’) and in high school (‘Murray’). So I guess I’d have ended up in Ravenclaw too. I’ve wondered about the natural alliances between the Hogwarts houses, and thought that Slytherin/Ravenclaw and Gryffindor/Hufflepuff made sense in both a complementary characteristics sense, and also in a male/female kind of way. But just going on the emblems, I’m not sure that lions and badgers have much in common….and don’t eagles eat snakes?

I like your icon. It definitely should be on a banner being waved around at Quidditch matches.

"Well," he said. "Sometimes the cook fucks up and I have to make him do it again."

This is amusing. I think. I look forward to reading Trusty’s take on fashion once he realises he has to actually work to become a journalist!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I’ve wondered about the natural alliances between the Hogwarts houses, and thought that Slytherin/Ravenclaw and Gryffindor/Hufflepuff made sense in both a complementary characteristics sense, and also in a male/female kind of way.

They do somehow seem to go together. Badgers and Lions are both kind of ferocious and both mammals. Eagles do eat snakes, though (and I suspect snakes eat eggs). If you consider them ravens then they go together with snakes even more, because aren't both those animals associated with hidden knowledge and the afterlife? Of course, I wonder how many positive snake characteristics we're supposed to associate with Slytherin. JKR doesn't have much of a track record when it comes to snake biology after all.

This is amusing. I think. I look forward to reading Trusty’s take on fashion once he realises he has to actually work to become a journalist!


I wondered what he was doing now. I assumed most of the kids were SAB kids (School of American Ballet).

[tinderblast.livejournal.com]

Campbell Scott is one of the most attractive men, ever. I know that's shallow, and that he's also terrifically talented and that I'd watch him in anything, but someone needs to drive-by mention his looks and it might as well be me :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Not shallow at all--he really is a very very attractive man. Totally totally cute.

[arwencordelia.livejournal.com]

[Cho] asks him to understand where Marietta is coming from, to put her actions in context with the rest of her personality: she's a lovely person, she just made a mistake.

Interesting, too, that Harry rejects this outright. Not that being a lovely person should excuse one's mistakes outright, but we see him doing this all the time with people he already likes/thinks are "good". Hagrid comes to mind, here; he definitely made a mistake in the Draco & Buckbeak incident, yet Harry immediately takes his side; in OOTP, Harry even admonishes Hermione for suggesting that the substitute just might be a better teacher than Hagrid.

Or, maybe Harry will overlook a mistake from a "good" person only if it doesn't affect him directly. He was pretty quick, after all, to dismiss Ron after their fight in GOF, and Hermione, when she reported his new broomstick to McGonagall in POA (and in the latter case, Harry knows right away that she did this with his safety in mind).

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Interesting, too, that Harry rejects this outright.

Yes! It seems very clear that this idea of *not* taking a side completely horrifies him, as does the idea of thinking someone has done something wrong without them being dead to you.

[khilari.livejournal.com]

The eagle might be to balance the lion, king of the birds and king of the beasts. King of the reptiles would be a basilisk though, and I don't think that Slytherin's emblem is one. That makes it seem like Ravenclaw and Gryffindor are the houses opposed to each other - and the most powerful ones - when so far it has been Gryfindor and Slytherin.
Maybe the Ravenclaws are just biding their time.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Maybe the Ravenclaws are just biding their time.

Heh--that is fun to think about. Eagles, badgers and lions just do seem to go together more than Badgers, lions and ravens. Ravens seem more usually associated with "dark" animals--wolves, for instance. Eagles are more considered birds of prey while ravens get the reputation of being carrion eaters.

The silliest thing is, ravens are, I believe, smarter! The crow family are known for their intelligence.

[parallactic.livejournal.com]

(ETA: My new conspiracy theory being that eventually the Ravenclaws will be revealed to have been the real bad guys, fanning the flames between Slytherin and Gryffindor and then feeding on the corpses! Mwahahaha!)

They are clever enough to do so. Intelligence is always suspicious, especially when you never know for sure which side they're going to be on... Who knows, maybe there's intense Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff rivalry going on that Harry isn't aware of, since he's not part of either House. C'mon, Ravenclaws would be suspicious of Hufflepuff's unthinking loyalty, and do they even know what they're working hard for, and omg how can you reason with a zealot? Hufflepuffs would be suspicious of Ravenclaw's waffling back and forth, and always wanting to argue about every little detail, and why do they always sit on their tushes all day?

For me, all the House qualities could bleed into each other. Cunning can be intelligence can be loyalty to your principles can be standing up to your principles can be ambitious drive for your principles can be formulating a plan can be working hard can be taking action...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

For me, all the House qualities could bleed into each other. Cunning can be intelligence can be loyalty to your principles can be standing up to your principles can be ambitious drive for your principles can be formulating a plan can be working hard can be taking action...

Definitely--and for me, these things don't have to be abilities. It's more just what your priorities are or how you act. Neville doesn't seem more about courage now that he's braver than he was at 11. He just always acted the same way. You can rely on your intellect most of all without actually being intelligent.

What I love about Hufflepuff is that on the good side they can be good, rock-solid people, but, imo, they're also always poised to become an angry mob, which goes along with the whole "ordinary, salt-of-the-eart types." One of the things I love about The Andy Griffith Show is the way the entire town is always completely ready to become a mob--a stranger in town and they're eying the pitchforks.

[gillieweed.livejournal.com]

Another vote here for Ravenslyths. I love your conspiricy theory--Rowena Ravenclaw:Puppetmaster!

I think Ravenclaw and Slytherin are a lot alike, something the Ravenclaws probably know, but the Slytherins don't. I wrote a Ravenclaw OC who mentioned in passing (where this came from I do not know) that she had developed a 'correcting potion' that could pretty much fix up any botched potion enough to manage a passing grade. At first you think, "How clever! I bet she's a Ravenclaw!" Then you begin to wonder why a Ravenclaw would need such a potion in the first place, then when you later learned that she'd run a thriving black-market business in the stuff you started to wonder why she seemed like such a perfect Ravenclaw two paragraphs ago.

When the whole HP thing started to get big and all the sorting stuff came around, I was always sorted into Ravenclaw, and was happy to be there too, but for the little niggling part in the back of my brain that would whisper, "But it would be so much fun to be a Slytherin, wouldn't it?"

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--that makes me wonder just who was selling that stuff Hermione was confiscating in OotP. Were we told? It's cool to think the twins are putting all this knowledge into jokes but somewhere in Ravenclaw somebody's putting that kind of knowledge into study aids they sell to the Slytherins.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

seems reasonable to take the sort of precautions Hermione did.

Oh, I disagree. Reasonable perhaps if she'd warned them, which is both fairer and likely to reduce the chances of them telling if they know 'something bad' will happen, if not specifics. But then, the DA seemed to be relying on Harry and through that his friends/allies as a kind of personality cult as well as DADA group: the rising at the end in defence of him, for example, and the whole name of it, as well as the whole 'Harry's leader, but we should vote for authority' - um, why? What's the necessity for more authority in a group where he's the tutor? The whole thing seems based around a much more personal loyalty system, as you mentioned above; almost to the extent of becoming a clique of sorts.
But at least if the hex had been of any use, I could have found it slightly more reasonable; but it doesn?t alert the DA they?ve been outed, it doesn?t keep them from being outed. It just satisfies Hermione and her friends that at least they've got revenge.

you'd better have your principles and commitments clear

Oh, definitely. My point is that the DA didn't appear to have many principles as a group, so the lack of clarity for individuals is understandable.

Far from Zach being persecuted, he was in effect defended by Harry, who was icy to Ron and the twins whenever they made fun of him.

Hmm. I recall Ron being 'rather rude' when Zacharias questions Harry, the latter leading to 'Harry's temper rising'. Later, Ron tells Zacharias to 'shut his mouth' and Fred and George make the quite frankly creepy joke/threat about their 'lethal-looking' needle. Hermione tries to make peace again, etc. etc. Ron and Hermione agree that they dislike Zacharias, Fred and George hex him but stop when Harry spots them (independent of any warning/apparent iciness, iirc.) Everyone laughs when Fred says that ZS shouldn't have turned up. Ron threatens to jinx him (in the back - erk!) for being pleased about Harry's 'remedial potions', Harry tells him not to, but apparently because it's not worth it, since 'everyone will think' the same. Fred jokes/threatens that if Hufflepuff win, he'll have to kill ZS. (Sure would like to discount this as a joke, but looking at Fred and George's reactions to points being taken or the Quidditch pitch taunts, it's not exactly OOC.)
Considering this is the reaction to someone who, as Magpie pointed out, isn't even disagreeing with the ideology of the group; I'm going to have to reiterate that I personally would have felt unsafe telling such a group I wanted to resign. (Especially since the Gryffindors, who seem to be running it/friends with 'the boss' all have such a long history of violence against other students and all...)

But I don't see how anyone could read him as not an asshole, and therefore I believe the cognitive dissonance here is a deliberate literary strategy of some sort. At least, I find that to be a more interesting working hypothesis than "JKR is a fool."

Oh, me too. I think it'd make her a better author and lead to more potentially interesting conclusions, and there's certainly tons of moments in canon that point to there being a purposeful dissonace between what the 'goodies' think as right and what actually is. (Such as Montague.)
And I personally also find it impossible to read the books and not see that Harry is a jerk, but then, there's tons that imply that it isn't, and I can't really discount the whole 'JKR = fool' idea, much as I'd like to. Never rule anything out, and all that! ;)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Anyway, to run with it just a bit -- it seems to me that asshole!Harry is redeemed only by his fervent desire not to be an asshole.

Oh, I disagree. I think if anything, he's less redeemed (what is the word I'm lookng for? WORK, BRAIN, WORK! ;) by this - he's so confident in his innate goodness (and when he does worry over this, it's because of external issues - ie. he may be possessed by Voldemort, or he should have been in the house he's demonised) that he feels he can behave in a way he would condemn with anyone else. (to be fair, this isn't exactly unknown in the Potterverse, with almost every character on the good side, and undoubtedly all the baddies too, although they're kind of blank, ideology-wise, so far)
I mean, just because you desire something good, doesn't mean you're good for wanting it. Harry's morality seems pretty much based on a kind of basic reward system. His whole life - Hogwarts, friends, talents, TBWL image; is dependent, to him anyway, on being 'good' - the saviour of the WW and all that. *digs* I presume you've read this, but it's much more indepth than my ramblings! http://www.livejournal.com/users/vesania_aeterno/21378.html

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

"Well," he said. "Sometimes the cook fucks up and I have to make him do it again."

BWHAHAHA. Rich people crack me up.
Mind you, I almost never cook myself, so perhaps if I ever get rich, I will become that person! *shivers*

With Cho, too, more than once I've heard people get angry at her for "trying to get Harry on her side"

Heh. I suppose that Harry isn't "trying to get her on his side" by also arguing the issue, or defending his friend, though? Or if he is, it's because he's on the right side, dammit! ;)

Well, first I was amazed anybody fell for Zach Smith being the bad guy.

I know! Apart from anything else, it's so obvious that we're supposed to suspect him - Ron brings him up even as a possible betrayer from the first meeting, Harry is surprised that 'even' he is rooting against the DEs (!).

First, he was completely upfront all the time.

Yes, Harry's really never *gotten* that people don't always wear black hats that proclaim their affiliations, and that sometimes it's the people who are nice to you/not suspicious (Quirrell, Lockhart, Moody, Possessed!Ginny, Peter Pettigrew) who you can't trust, and likewise, that the Eeevil people aren't necessarily going to openly declare it (it's like in CoS when he thinks Draco's the heir, despite it making no sense whatsoever that if he were, he'd be yelling about it and to quote someone else, basically wearing a t-shirt that said 'I'm the Heir, Ask Me How!')

And second, he really didn't challenge Harry's ideals. He challenged Harry's *strength* but he wasn't questioning any principles.

Yes, he was basically a straw man. He doubted something we the audience knew to be true (that Harry had done the things he said) so he adds to the victim mentality of OotP and provides 'dissent' so that not everyone in canon immediately agrees with/worships Harry off-bat; without actually providing any really disagreements in ideology.
Which I presume is a purposeful move by Rowling: either it is/was too early to alert the audience to any ethical problems in the way the DA and in extension, the Order/entire 'good' side, even WW operates/d; or else she doesn't wish to cover this. Fingers crossed for the first.

Zach tests Harry's authority and Harry passes.

I think perhaps it's a fairly Hufflepuffian trait to a) be comfortable with a leader in the way that Ravenclaws perhaps aren't so much - Cho wants Harry for boss of the DA, but she's not exactly subservient to him. Even Luna is the least so of the Sextet. Gryffindors obviously love a leader (preferably being leader, though) - Slytherins...?! They obey Voldie, but with not much loyalty arguably. I'd say that the whole self-serving aspect probably makes them the most independent, but then, Snape is subject to Dumbledore's will and Draco worships his father, if not giving him total obedience.
And b) Want that leader to be strong, rather than, say, care about his ethics or plans - theirs is not to question why, and all that.

people act mostly out of their head are suspicious

Yes, another idea that hasn't quite occured to the Gryffindors yet is that you can do just as much damage operating from your feelings/heart as you can from your head. Harry is obeying his heart when he tries to cast Crucio, or when he beats up/hexes Malfoy, or when he takes pleasure in mocking Ron (of course, his (and the entire Trio's) reasoning can be even more dodgy ethically, so perhaps I've lost my point somewhere along the way... ;)
Sirius never seemed to do anything but follow his feelings, and besides it not making him very fun to be around, it ended up getting him killed.
Of course, there aren't that many people in the Potterverse who do tend to follow their heads exclusively - Cho is emotional, Draco and Snape make their feelings obvious, even the DEs get angry and end up screwing up. I don't know whether this is because all the characters are pretty similiar on purpose as examples of the WW's culture and values (it being a bit of a 'warrior' haven) or just because they're all from the mind of one person.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh. I suppose that Harry isn't "trying to get her on his side" by also arguing the issue, or defending his friend, though? Or if he is, it's because he's on the right side, dammit! ;)

And of course in his anger he doesn't defend Hermione in terms of anything like logic, he just says her curse was brilliant, because he wants Cho to know he liked Marietta getting hurt. Cho, somewhat rightfully, thinks it's brilliant because Hermione did it. Really, they're too people in different cliques who have no chance of communicating.

'I'm the Heir, Ask Me How

LOL! Though one thing these books show is just how easy it is to get people to believe the wrong person is guilty this way. Think of all the people convinced that Draco was the one spreading the rumor that Harry was the heir even though he loudly says he isn't. One person even once told me Draco broke Harry's arm in CoS.

without actually providing any really disagreements in ideology.

It's like Hermione telling off Umbridge. You'd almost think her answer to Slinkhard was an answer to Slinkhard.

They obey Voldie, but with not much loyalty arguably. I'd say that the whole self-serving aspect probably makes them the most independent, but then, Snape is subject to Dumbledore's will and Draco worships his father, if not giving him total obedience.

I think the Slytherins seem to believe in hierarchy, which is not to say they don't try to climb it themselves by marrying up or whatever. But they seem to know their place, be they on the top or the bottom of the ladder.

I think things also come down to the fact that at base everyone in the book is starting with the same values on some level. It's like in the most recent GoF chapter. Percy's completely mocked for being "fussy about rule-breaking" and his attention to his job, yet he says nothing in response to Arthur's mentioning he's gotten them tickets to the cup by smoothing over some misuse of Muggle artefacts. Um, shouldn't Percy be horrified at that and turning Arthur in? Yet he doesn't.