I still have yet to receive my book. So this post may be filled with things that are off, or I may miss completely obvious things that have to do with the subject. It's very hard for me to write about Snape without going over stuff again, and without knowing some of the basic facts we're intentionally not told. Anyway, still, it came into my head so I'm throwing it out. I did that post about Father Figures and Draco, and I couldn't help but think about how fabulous it is from the other side for

Oh, Snape. Poor Snape. Of everyone in canon he's the one that seems to hate children the most. How did he end up with not one, but two sons? Well, the same way for both, in a way. Snape had a hand in James' Potter's death, but Harry's mother's need to protect him kept the baby alive to arrive in Snape's class 11 years later. Same year as Draco also arrived, all ready to imprint on his Potions instructor. In fifth year Lucius Malfoy removes himself from the equation, and Narcissa Malfoy kneeled before him with distasteful tears. Snape now has two fatherless boys to bring up in a dangerous world.

And I do think "father" is the right word. [livejournal.com profile] mistful pointed out in her brilliant review that while Dumbledore is crap as a headmaster, he knows how to mentor both Harry and Draco when Draco finally scales to the epic level. It's not Dumbledore who's the father here, it's Snape. The guy Harry has railed against for years, who criticizes and protects. Snape hates Harry but, according to DD, he doesn't "want him dead." Of course all Snape theories have to find a way to work depending on where Snape eventually turns out to end up, but it does seem that Snape has an interest in keeping Harry alive while he's at Hogwarts. It may not be the loving bond one would want from a parent, but he does seem to be in the reluctant position of having to depend on Harry's survival for something, giving him an active interest in his well-being even as he can't stand him personally. For whatever reason, Snape tries to mould Harry's character.

Draco, otoh, may be something completely different; a personal interest he thought had little value--or at least not value enough to risk much for. Pre-HBP everyone wondered about the possibility of Draco finding out Snape was on Harry's side and hating him for it, and assumed Snape was willing to take that risk. Well, a lot of people assumed that Snape was just playing Draco anyway, and many fics had him openly say that he really didn't like Malfoy, but HBP shows something else going on. Snape may not like children in general, but of the two he's been saddled with Malfoy's his favorite and Harry's the unwanted one. (Ooh, that's so Jacob-Have-I-Loved!)

In fact, it's perfect given Snape's standing as a double agent because whatever side he's on, he's playing at being a father to a boy. He's trying to raise Harry to be a good member of the Order to defeat Voldemort. Meanwhile, he's trying to raise Draco to be a good Death Eater to help Voldemort win. It's literally like his double life has brought him a set of twins to raise in his own image. Unfortunately for Snape, it's working, isn't it?

I can't help but shake my head at poor Snape's position, because teenaged boys are a bitch, aren't they? And his are just running amuck. Although Draco is technically older by a few weeks (barely a difference--they might as well be twins, really) Harry develops faster with Draco a step behind. In OotP Snape and Harry's relationship hits new highs or new lows depending on your pov (either way we get Harry on all fours in Snape's office). Their forced Occlumency lessons are painful to both. As much as I feel for Harry in them, I can now see Snape's pov when it comes to Harry and Occlumency.

If one could associate a particular magical skill with a house Gryffindor's might be flying, and Slytherin's would definitely be Occlumency. Snape is skilled at it. Draco's a natural. Harry has stopped having visions of Voldemort because the Dark Lord is using it when Harry could not. Harry's right in HBP, of course, that the Prince is a much better teacher than Snape. If you're going to have to have Snape as a teacher, you'd better hope you're somewhat skilled in the subject. We've seen what he does to Neville in Potions, and that's how he handles Harry in Occlumency. He claims Harry isn't even trying with Occlumency and he's somewhat correct in that we know Harry isn't working hard, but I think it's more than that. I think for most Slytherins (and for me too, I must admit), hiding your feelings is a natural instinct. So to Snape, Harry may almost appear to be making an effort to be transparent--he can't understand why Harry just. can't. do. it. (Meanwhile, Occlumency is apparently so OOC for Harry that when he does try it in the Common Room Hermione always interrupts to ask him what's wrong.)

In fact, the principles of Occlumency seem to be Snape's final piece of advice to Harry--keep your mouth shut and your mind closed. The one thing we hear of him teaching in DADA is wordless spells. It's all about covering yourself up, not letting anyone know what you're doing before you do it, being invisible to the eye--ironic, given that Harry's first big mistake of the year is to try and fail to sneak into the Slytherin carriage, while Malfoy tries and succeeds to make it look like he hasn't noticed. Harry never does Occlumency that we see, iirc. The one time he fights back against Snape he does it by throwing up a shield charm, a totally different thing. With Malfoy I think we're shown Snape trying and being unable to break through his defenses.

Snape and Harry seem just so different on the surface that they can't get along (obviously they're really alike in other ways), but in the past two years Harry's still managed to break through Snape's defenses. In sneaking into the Pensieve and reading his old textbook Harry sees the vulnerable, teen!Snape underneath. This Snape is on the same level as Harry. The father is brought down to his level.

Of course, up until the fifth book Snape has Sirius to deal with as well, Harry's other father figure. Sirius is everything Snape is not: handsome, fun, cool, loving. Where Snape is always criticizing Harry and yelling at him to work at something, Sirius would love nothing more than for Harry to hang out with him. But here's the thing, Sirius is also rather stuck in adolescence in terms of his goals for Harry. Most significantly, Sirius dies. Snape was the father figure strong enough to survive and to take all of Harry's blame for the situation even though honestly, even if Snape is still a DE, he really can't be blamed for Sirius' death. That's the thing about Dad, though. He doesn't care if you hate him, he's not going away.

So Snape's already got a difficult teenager to work with in Book V who's getting more cheeky and confident in Book VI (Everyone together: "There's no need to call me 'sir,' professor.") But this year the second son's running amuck too! Previously, and certainly in Book V, Snape could always depend on Draco's unquestioning support in whatever he did in class. He thinks Snape would make a great headmaster. He never has to be told to call Snape "sir." He laughs at whatever joke Snape makes about Harry. He's the good son, the one like Snape. Now, this year, all that changes. Draco isn't openly defiant to Snape in class but he's not his little cheerleader either. When they're alone he's rude and openly challenging Snape's position. He's not even helping Snape win the House Cup. He's ignoring Snape's summons to his office. (Can't you just see Snape being first confused and then furious having to deal with that? It's so teenager! Discipline isn't working!)

When Filch drags Malfoy into Slughorn's party, Harry notices Malfoy looking unhappy at the prospect of having to stay, proving his story about gatecrashing was a lie. He also notices Snape looking "angry and afraid." I can't claim to know exactly what Snape is feeling there and why, but "angry and afraid" sounds very much like a parental expression when faced with a child up to dangerous things. I admit when I read the book it never even occurred to me Snape didn't know what he was agreeing to with his vow, mostly because it seemed so obvious to me what he was being ordered to do I assumed Snape must know too. But whether or not he knows what he's trying to help Draco with, he knows he's trying to help him with something and Draco's fighting him at every turn. What's more he's proving *able* to fight him in ways he never was--just as Snape was frustrated with Harry's inability to learn Occlumency when it seemed so important to them all, now he's equally frustrated by Draco's ability when it’s equally important to his well-being. Oh for the days he could have just reached into Draco's mind and seen everything there, or Draco would be happy to chatter on to someone who would listen!

But then, isn't that just the perfect teenaged metaphor? Harry's got the mood swings and blasts Snape off his feet with bursts of wandless magic, Draco's sullen and uncommunicative under a cloak of Occlumency.

In the end Snape appears to claim the favored son and run (throwing words of guidance to the son left behind), but I think his status with both of them has been equally destroyed. Both Harry and Draco have reason to hate him for killing Dumbledore. He's probably still worried about both boys' Occlumency skills. If he's honestly warning Harry about learning to keep his mind and mouth shut he's got to worry about Harry blowing it by not listening to him. Meanwhile he's on the run with the kid whose emotions he *can't* completely read, and the ways he and Draco were alike are now presenting a problem. They're two people capable of hiding their true thoughts from the other, with good reason not to trust each other (remember Snape wasn't even present during Draco's final confession). Usually Harry would be the wizard to worry about but when it comes to this issue, Draco's the more formidable.

This is a reason I can't help but hope for the two boys to possibly act as go-betweens for the other. When I think of two boys with the same almost-father I can't help but think of the Black boys as well--who both possibly also stand as alternate father figures in their way. Sirius was Harry's godfather, and is related to Draco, and Draco and Regulus have a lot in common. But Sirius and Regulus died without perhaps ever knowing each other, and they fascinate me. (In fact, I almost did a post about how I liked to think of them being a bit East of Eden in my mind, but I held off for the new canon.)

Finally, I wanted to end with what I think is the most striking Father Figure moment for Snape in the book. Despite his ultimate importance to the plot, Snape doesn't get a lot of page time with the students. We know he argued with Dumbledore and we see him with the Black sisters, but it's not like we see tons of scenes with Harry or with Draco. At the end of OotP, if we remember, he stops a confrontation between the two at the school. Having now read HBP that scene takes on a different feeling for me, from Snape's pov, because I can't help but think of how much it's like the kind of thing a parent would have to deal with. He walks in to find the bigger kid (magically speaking) with his wand pulled on the smaller one, cockily trying to figure out what to hex him with. Snape punishes him, taking his favorite's side. McGonagall comes in with comfortingly mundane advice: you boys should be out in the sunshine.

In HBP we get a different version of that scene when Snape bursts into the bathroom to late to stop hexes from being thrown. He finds Harry hovering over Draco, wand in hand, covered in Draco's blood while Draco bleeds to death on the floor. Snape, in an uncharacteristically nurturing moment--well, I can quote this bit because [livejournal.com profile] ptyx did earlier and it really is intense:

The door banged open behind Harry and he looked up, terrified: Snape had burst into the room, his face livid. Pushing Harry roughly aside, he knelt over Malfoy, drew his wand, and traced it over the deep wounds Harry's curse had made, muttering an incantation that sounded almost like song. The flow of blood seemed to ease; Snape wiped the residue from Malfoy's face and repeated his spell. Now the wounds seemed to be knitting.

Harry was still watching, horrified by what he had done, barely aware that he too was soaked in blood and water. Moaning Myrtle was still sobbing and wailing overhead. When Snape had performed his counter curse for the third time, he half-lifted Malfoy into a standing position.

"You need the hospital wing. There may be a certain amount of scarring, but if you take dittany immediately we might avoid even that.. . . Come...."

He supported Malfoy across the bathroom, turning at the door to say in a voice of cold fury, "And you, Potter . . . You wait here for me."


As [livejournal.com profile] ptyx pointed out, Snape's healing spell is a lot like the phoenix and a lot like a lullaby. His reaction here, if never elsewhere, seems pretty much standard for a responsible parent. He heals the boy who's hurt and coldly orders the other to stay put.

It's also, of course, surprisingly gentle for Snape. Despite arguing with him all year he seems primarily concerned with healing Draco, and Draco quietly submits to being helped. And yes, I will point out that the whole scene has a nice birthing-quality to it as well, with Harry and Draco covered in "blood and water."

The thing about this scene that makes it even more powerful, though, is that you have to remember what did this to Draco. Snape immediately recognizes that this is his spell. He made it up. At the end of the book Snape expresses fury at the idea of Harry using his own spell against him, just as James did. Had Snape walked into the bathroom to find Draco dangling upside-down he might have simply been furious. But I can't help but wonder just what he felt seeing *this* spell used by Harry on Draco and almost killing him. It seems like a big theme of HBP that people come up with things that get turned against them and the people they love, and it seems like usually the maliciousness of the original intent gets magnified. Hermione's coin idea, for instance, helps Draco in his plan, but it's not bad in itself. Ditto the Peruvian Darkness Powder, I think--helpful, but that's it. The twins' prank with the cabinet was maliciously intended and became more so as time went on--this is the key to letting the DEs into Hogwarts. Sectusempra is one of the most violent, painful spells we've seen so far. Snape intended to use it on his enemies, and we see him slash James' face with it once. It comes back at him far more horrifically; not only almost killing someone, but almost killing someone he cares about. I might also add Snape has somewhat encouraged animosity between Harry and Draco; he perhaps just always assumed he'd be there to make sure nothing too bad happened as a result. Re-reading Harry's cocky claim to be "deciding which curse to use on Malfoy" at the end of OotP now, one can't help but think just what curse he'll decide to use on Malfoy a year later.

And I have to admit, I hope there is a certain amount of scarring.
Tags:
Page 1 of 2 << [1] [2] >>

From: [identity profile] bethbethbeth.livejournal.com


::bookmarked::

A really excellent examination of this three-way dynamic, particularly interesting to me because I've seen almost *no* examination of Draco from anyone on my f'list, which is very odd.
ext_6866: (Me and my boyfriend.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Really? I must just be doing enough Draco meta for the entire flist, shameless as I've been about it.:-)

From: [identity profile] earth-magic.livejournal.com


This is an excellent study. When I read the things you write I realise just how much I read the books at just a surface level. It will be fun going back and read it again with the memory of your comments.
ext_6866: (Magpies in the library)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks! I'm going to be reading again with everyone else's comments in mind.:-)

From: [identity profile] ptyx.livejournal.com


Your first lines made me laugh - Oh, Snape. Poor Snape. Of everyone in canon he's the one that seems to hate children the most. How did he end up with not one, but two sons? - and then you almost made me cry: He doesn't care if you hate him, he's not going away. And when I finished it, I was left speechless. This is so perfect. This is the best fic I've ever read. Is it canon?! I hope it is, sis! I have to rec your essay ASAP!

From: [identity profile] parallactic.livejournal.com


I'm impressed by your ability to pull off insightful meta without having read the book. This also reminds me of a meta post I read, where Dumbledore was the distant father figure, Sirius the father figure that wants to be your friend, and Snape the authoritarian, demanding one. I hadn't thought of Snape as father figure to Draco, and I think it's only in this book that we see it.

But going back from HBP and looking at the previous books, Draco gets treated as the favored child before but in HBP he's not. He becomes the troublesome one, the one who gets criticized, which is usually Harry's role. The potions textbook is Snape nurturing Harry by proxy, and on an equal basis. It's not a stretch to say that if Snape had treated Harry as he did Draco, Harry might have turned out a potions whiz and would have been obedient. I think the lesson for Snape would be that the manner he treats people affects his relationships with them. If he's demanding and critical of Draco, Draco rebels. If he'd just given straightforward advice to Harry, they'd have got on well.

And if we're really getting into symbolism, Draco and Harry could represent the two sides of Snape. Neither the DE nor the Order trusts him, but he's still doing his hardest to get the job done, and both sides are at odds with each other, just like Draco and Harry are at odds with each other. So Draco and Harry represent Snape's inner child, or perhaps it's just Draco and Harry mirroring each other in reverse in HBP. Unlike other books, Draco is the one who triumphs at the 11th hour, tries to keep Harry from foiling his plans, and gets to humiliate his enemy. Harry is the one who's obsessed, determined to foil the plans, and gets trounced upon and humiliated.
ext_6866: (Watching and waiting)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Oh, I've read the book. I just returned my copy and am now awaiting the one I ordered, so I'm going from memory.

But going back from HBP and looking at the previous books, Draco gets treated as the favored child before but in HBP he's not. He becomes the troublesome one, the one who gets criticized, which is usually Harry's role. The potions textbook is Snape nurturing Harry by proxy, and on an equal basis.

Oh, very true--and it shows in the class. Draco seems to do okay in Potions, and he probably is a better Potions student to start with, but with Snape helping Harry out he's doing a lot better while Draco has to "rely on his talent."

If he's demanding and critical of Draco, Draco rebels. If he'd just given straightforward advice to Harry, they'd have got on well.

Yes, and I love the way that makes Harry and Snape look funny. Harry can't believe "the Prince" is anything like Snape and Snape is sure his teenaged self would have hated Harry.

And if we're really getting into symbolism, Draco and Harry could represent the two sides of Snape. Neither the DE nor the Order trusts him, but he's still doing his hardest to get the job done, and both sides are at odds with each other, just like Draco and Harry are at odds with each other.

I really did always wonder how he'd pull off his relationships with both of them, given that they were both so obviously allied to different sides. JKR speaks of compartmentalizing, and it seems like Snape's just pretty good at it!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] parallactic.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-23 05:51 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-24 07:32 pm (UTC) - Expand
ext_18536: (Default)

From: [identity profile] mizbean.livejournal.com


Ooh, I just love reading your essays.

And I have to admit, I hope there is a certain amount of scarring.

Oh, I agree. And, thank you for tying it all in with their confrontation in OotP. "deciding which curse to use on Malfoy" I had forgotten all about that.
ext_6866: (I'm still picking.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


To be honest, I'd forgotten about it too until I was writing it!
ext_7651: (Default)

From: [identity profile] idlerat.livejournal.com


Very nice. I love your point about spells that come back. I also love Snape as healer in this book (as per my think on water and potions and cups and serpents- the caduceus). He heals Dd's arm as well, and I'm still under the impression that when Dd asks Harry to get Snape, in Hogsmeade after drinking the potion, it's as a healer. So cool and unexpected and logical. That scene in the bathroom is one of the best things JKR has done, IMO, and totally took me by surprise.

And wasn't Maya's review awesome!
ext_3319: Goth girl outfit (Loveneverdies)

From: [identity profile] rikibeth.livejournal.com


Oh, yes. I LOVE how Snape-as-healer is now CANON CANON CANON.

Yay!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 01:16 am (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] marplish.livejournal.com


marvelous as always- fathers and sons, the theme of the book played over and over in variations through the book. Snape as the father figure to two boys, and the resonance of the three against each other, though, is just brill.

Always a joy to read, you are.

-
not-frogslayr
ext_6866: (Me and my boyfriend.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks--and it's weird, actually, that the boys themselves have so little interaction in this book. They barely speak to each other. Even in the bathroom scene they are kept from speaking when they fight, and then there's no resolution. Like, Harry has detention but it's never mentioned between them. In fact, I remember thinking it was odd when Harry starts going out with Ginny and is happy to be the subject of gossip that makes him happy. I remember thinking wow, in my high school near-murderer would trump two idiots starting to date, but this is a weird world...

From: [identity profile] samaranth.livejournal.com


For whatever reason, Snape tries to mould Harry's character…the principles of Occlumency seem to be Snape's final piece of advice to Harry

“Blocked again, and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter.’

I find this scene quite amazing. Everything is chaos, opportunities for causing harm are all there, Snape is screaming vindictively about the HBP’s spells and James Potter, but he’s also, right up to the last moment, trying to teach Harry a critical lesson about survival. Also, he does only block Harry’s spells – spectacularly, but it is only blocking – until that last, desperate moment when he screams ‘DON’T CALL ME A COWARD!’ He slashes at Harry then, but it’s not a damaging spell as far as I remember. It hurts, but it doesn’t harm. The magical equivalent of a slap across the face, perhaps.

Your essays are wonderful, Magpie – always thought-provoking, always enlightening.

From: [identity profile] gillieweed.livejournal.com


It is an absolutely astonishing scene. He's running for his life and he's still teaching Harry--I just love those words, “Blocked again, and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter."--as well as protecting him from torture at the hands of a "fellow" DE.

I may be in a minority, but this book made me a greater Snape fan than ever--and that won't change even in the (unlikely, IMHO) event that he is proven to be all-evil.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 01:01 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] joyfulgirl1013.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 04:51 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sarahtales.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 08:50 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] dphearson.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 01:05 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 01:06 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gillieweed.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 03:01 pm (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] pilly2009.livejournal.com


It's not Dumbledore who's the father here, it's Snape.

Certainly in Draco's case, but I'm a little confused if you are referring to Harry. In a post of yours from a few days ago, you labelled Dumbledore as a "father figure" to Harry:
Harry says something like "Don't worry, sir," and Dumbledore replies something like, "I can't worry, Harry. I'm with you." That's an amazingly cool thing for a father figure to say to his son, and Dumbledore stresses that sort of thing throughout HBP. You can do this, he tells Harry, not putting pressure on him but reassuring him that he trusts him.

This I particularly agreed with when I read it, because I have always believed that a father needs to be encouraging as well as disciplinary (and protective); the two have to come together, otherwise you are left with a father like Lucius (discipline only) or a father like Sirius (encouragement only). It's all well and good to have a favourite son and an unwanted son, but then the unwanted son would get only half the benefits of a father figure. This is perhaps why I've never really connected Snape as Harry's main father figure; he does not get from Snape what Draco does, or what he gets/got from Dumbledore. Though I admit he could be at least one of Harry's father figure, and it's interesting that he seems to be the one who has survived thus far; but it's just that Harry has never seemed to connect with Snape on this level before, and the reasons for not doing so only seem to be racking up (Sirius, his parents, Dumbledore...).
ext_6866: (Blah blah blah blah blah)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Heh--yep, I totally did call him a father figure...and he is one, just not in the sense I was thinking about Snape here. DD is more removed; he's a mentor. Snape's the one always struggling with Harry on a daily basis. In the fifth book, when Harry and Snape are really in each other's faces (and Sirius is more of a presence too), DD has removed himself as much as he could.

But like you said, there's a dizzying array of father figures in these books--and I didn't mean to imply Snape was the only one for Harry. You're right, that would be pretty bad for Harry, since Snape seems to *only* be a sort of "dark father." He never praises Harry at all, for anything, and hates him right off.

discussion reminded me of poem; how embarrassing.

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2005-07-22 01:55 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] pilly2009.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-23 02:01 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-23 02:17 am (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] mahoni.livejournal.com

Snape as father figure to Harry


Oooookay. I'm having a hard time with most of this because I totally don't see how Snape is a father figure for Harry. Draco, yes; Snape does treat Draco with a preference that implies at least a mentoring relationship, and can be interpreted as a surrogate father relationship. But Harry? You're going to have to convince me of this.

The only times I think you try to make a case for it in this essay, I'm going to quote and discuss. You may know of other supporting evidence; if so, lay it on me! :D

it does seem that Snape has an interest in keeping Harry alive while he's at Hogwarts. It may not be the loving bond one would want from a parent, but he does seem to be in the reluctant position of having to depend on Harry's survival for something

and

Snape may not like children in general, but of the two he's been saddled with Malfoy's his favorite and Harry's the unwanted one.

If this kind of relationship = father figure, then Vernon Dursley is Harry's ultimate father figure. Dursley has an interest in keeping Harry alive - whether he knew it or not before the threats started, Petunia obviously knew that the *had* to keep Harry for an as yet undisclosed reason, and she would have influenced Vernon in that direction. Also, Dursley has been saddled with two children, one of whom is his favorite, the other (Harry) he absolutely hates and fears. So far he and Snape are equals, then. However, Dursley has raised Harry from infancy, and is there any time Harry needs to go back to Privet Drive, which seems to make Dursley Harry's father figure, leaving Snape to be...what? I don't know; maybe just a really mean teacher.

For whatever reason, Snape tries to mould Harry's character.

How? By attempting to make him have low self-esteem? All Snape does is insult Harry, take him down a notch, point out his short-comings, and take others' sides against him. That seems like not so much a purposeful attempt to mold Harry as a purposeful attempt to continually push Harry away and turn Harry into a nothing. Of course, this treatment does mold Harry, but imho only in as much as interaction with a variety of people molds Harry.

He's trying to raise Harry to be a good member of the Order to defeat Voldemort.

Only in that Snape teaches Harry a subject at school. How is Snape's treatment of Harry any more fatherly than the others? He's actually more abusive than any of the other teachers; and as far as teaching strategy, Snape doesn't encourage Harry to learn at all, and sets him up to fail. His treatment doesn't make Harry rebel and try harder at Potions and thus become a deadly potions master to be feared by all, including Voldemort. It just makes Harry treat Potions as a class he *has* to take, which he puts out of his mind whenever possible.

Outside of Potions class, Snape is always there to punish Harry for real or imagined misdeeds. Not a useless lesson to Harry (i.e. don't get caught), but not unusually fatherly.

The way I see it, Snape is put in the position of being a father figure to one child: Draco. Snape is, and has always been, Draco-centric. As it turns out, this mentoring position was going somewhere: draco has now been sent to kill someone, all by himself, and to pay for failure for his life. It's like "Draco, you are a man starting...NOW!!" Snape was critically important all through this new stage of Draco's life, and it appears he will continue to be critically important as a mentor/protector, or, to term it a different way, a father figure.

My opinion has always been that Dumbledore was Harry's father figure. (imho, Sirius was pretty much just the really fun but crazy uncle, no matter how much Harry might have wanted him to be a replacement father). And as far as that goes, he has advanced to the next stage of his life faster than Draco: he has left the protection of his 'father,' he has advanced from being a son/student, and is now an adult, on his own, ready to make his own moves. Draco, I think, might possibly get there in book seven, if he's going to continue to increase in importance to the plot, but who knows.

Anyway, that's the way I see. I'd like to hear your ideas in more detail, though, because I know you, and I know you don't come by theories without canonical back-up. :D
ext_6866: (Maybe I'm wrong.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com

Re: Snape as father figure to Harry


Oooookay. I'm having a hard time with most of this because I totally don't see how Snape is a father figure for Harry. Draco, yes; Snape does treat Draco with a preference that implies at least a mentoring relationship, and can be interpreted as a surrogate father relationship. But Harry? You're going to have to convince me of this.

I think we're just using the term differently--and your way is more accurate. Usually when we say "father figure" we mean someone who is a father, which means they're supportive, they care about you, you look up to them. I agree Harry and Snape are none of these things.

What I think of Snape as is more of a parody of the Bad Father or the Dark Father--which is partially why it amuses me from Snape's pov. He has no fatherly feeling for Harry at all, but he still winds up put in the position of being the older male with which Harry interacts more than others. Dumbledore mentors Harry from a distance in his headmaster's office, there to explain things at the end of the story, but Snape is more like the fairy tale Ogre of a father who always punishes, always says Harry will never do anything right, is the guy Harry wants to beat, the guy who was his real father's enemy etc.

I may not be explaining it well, because you're absolutely right in the way you're describing Snape's relationship with Harry and Draco. It just seems like in a mythological or fairy tale sense, Snape is the Dark Father figure--if this were Cinderella he'd be the stepmother that we hate, split off from the fairy godmother/dead perfect mother.

From: [identity profile] mahoni.livejournal.com

o_o


Er, sorry about the multiple posts. LJ told me it wouldn't post it all in one, and then it did anyway.

From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/


Snape/Harry/Draco is by far the most fascinating trio in this series, and I love you for writing this essay *♥*

Oh, Snape. Poor Snape. Of everyone in canon he's the one that seems to hate children the most. How did he end up with not one, but two sons?

This made me laugh. Poor poor Snape indeed.
I believe Snape had liked Draco much better when Draco wasn't his responsibility, now? I'm not even sure Draco is his favorite son, the favor possibly has worn out long before we reached the final confrontation, which by the way Snape was untold of :P

What I feel is, Snape is on his way of becoming Harry and Draco's father. He is shouldering a father's responsibilies alright, but behavior-wise he's not quite there yet, mentally he's got a long way to go- not that it's his personal goal to become an effective father figure ;-)

And I think you've just presented me with my MOST ideal ending for book 7- Snape, Harry, and Draco, one happy (if somewhat dysfunctional) family!

And I have to admit, I hope there is a certain amount of scarring.

So I wasn't the only one who sort of stamped my foot a bit when Snape said scarring might be avoided ;-P?
ext_6866: (Baby magpies)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I believe Snape had liked Draco much better when Draco wasn't his responsibility, now? I'm not even sure Draco is his favorite son, the favor possibly has worn out long before we reached the final confrontation, which by the way Snape was untold of :P

::snort:: But you know if they were really going to like each other they would have to go through this phase where Snape just wants to smack him or send him back to his father, Azkaban or no.

But yeah, Snape has a long way to go. That's part of what makes it so funny, because, like I was trying to say above, it's like he keeps finding himself in these stereotypical father situations that he wants NOTHING TO DO WITH!

And I think you've just presented me with my MOST ideal ending for book 7- Snape, Harry, and Draco, one happy (if somewhat dysfunctional) family!

What's that Rushlight story? Through a Shattered Mirror? Yeah, that's okay by me.

So I wasn't the only one who sort of stamped my foot a bit when Snape said scarring might be avoided ;-P?

Oh please let there be scarring!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gillieweed.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 03:05 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/ - Date: 2005-07-22 05:23 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 09:40 pm (UTC) - Expand
ext_9800: (Default)

From: [identity profile] issen4.livejournal.com


Hm, this is why I like "Snape-adopts-Harry" fics so much--the father dynamic and the way they work through their mutual antagonism.
ext_6866: (I'll just watch from up here)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Oh yeah--they're just so stuck with each other no matter how much they both hate it!

From: [identity profile] courtaud.livejournal.com


Here from the Daily Snitch; I hope you don't mind.
I always thought that Snape was trapped in the filial part of a father-son relationship with Dumbledore (one that Dumbledore handed rather clumsily, or not fatherly at all). Snape is unlucky with is father figures: Dumbledore in POA, in GOF the frightening fatherly Voldemort, and in OoTP with is biological father. This year he must come to terms with the killing of his own 'father'. So perhaps he can shoulder parental responsibility better than before, and maybe come out from his perpetual state of adolescence.
ext_6866: (Good point.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Ooh, excellent points about Snape there--you're absolutely right he's right in the middle, father to the younger generation, and but son to Dumbledore and Voldemort. There's lots of hints about that kind of thing in earlier books too. It's always been kind of interesting the way DD seems most closely involved with Snape over anyone else, yet Snape is still jealous of James and DD's favor of Harry seems to be part of that.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] courtaud.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-23 10:42 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-23 11:32 pm (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] shadiness.livejournal.com


Snape intended to use it on his enemies, and we see him slash James' face with it once.

Remind me, when was this?

Excellent essay, btw. I wish I could comment on it in some other way, but you explained everything so thoroughly for me, there's no need. I love your writing.
ext_6866: (Default)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks!

It's in the Pensieve, in Snape's Worst Memory:

'Bad luck, Prongs,' said Sirius briskly, and turned back to Snape. 'OI!'

Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of Jame's face, spattering his robes with blood.


Okay, here's the scary thing. When I was reading HBP and Harry read the name of the spell, I immediately knew it was that spell that Snape had thrown at James. I thought, up until this moment, that we'd HEARD Snape say the name of the spell when he threw it, so the whole time Harry was thinking of casting it I knew it what it was going to do.

Now, quoting the line to you, I realize we never knew the name of it!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] gillieweed.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 03:07 pm (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] mnemosyne-dream.livejournal.com


another awesome essay:-)

you know, i hadn't even remembered...

that Snape causing that bloody gash to appear in James Potter's cheek in the Pensieve scene was a toned-down version of Sectumsempra.

and i definitely saw Snape becoming a father figure to Draco in this book (and i don't really think that Lucius Malfoy was ever a good father to him), but i hadn't really thought of him as being one to Harry at the same time.

i just remembered what he said about keeping your mouth and mind closed, and thought that, even with him running away and Harry trying to curse him the whole way to the gates, he's still trying to be a teacher to him.

you gave me a lot more to think about.

thanks.
ext_6866: (Watching and waiting)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Like I said below, when I read the book I read the name of Sectusempra and *knew* it was that spell Snape had thrown. I literally thought we'd heard the name of it and that I was recognizing it. So I had some idea of what was going to happen--but it's strange I was completely wrong in thinking I'd recognized the name. I guess my head just must have thought that since the Levicorpus spell was in there the other one would be next.

It's kind of fascinating to think about Lucius, really. He's the bad guy in earlier books and Draco talks about him all the time, but in the end Snape is so much more important, with Lucius happy to be in Azkaban. I wonder if he'll come back in the next book and play a part, and if Draco's growth over the year will be a problem for him...

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] mnemosyne-dream.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 04:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] sarahtales.livejournal.com


Sister M, you just made me sing 'my heart belongs to daddy' softly to myself. You must realise there are many traumatised children where I work. This isn't helping any of us.

I love it that Harry used Snape's curse on Draco: Snape must have been filled with unspeakable horror and guilt. I think that's implicit in his reaction to Harry's act: always before it's been like 'Out of bed after dark? EXPULSION!', 'In Hogsmeade without permission? EXPULSION!' whereas now it's 'well, you almost killed a fellow student in a spell of ghastly violence... well, um... that'll be Saturday detention, for sure.' (I was so pleased that McGonagall was like 'OMG HELL YES, Harry, quit your whining, you're lucky noy to be expelled!') Because not only would it be a very serious thing to expel Harry from Hogwarts with Voldemort traipsing all over the countryside, but Snape must feel responsible too. And the only reason he was at hand must be because he was *tailing* Draco, worried about him, and then to open the door and see James Potter Redux and the child you're so helplessly worried about and the effects of your own spell...

I always thought he loved Draco. I am so happy to have been right, even though whenever I think about how terrified Draco (who cannot deal with ugly reality) must be when he stops and thinks and Snape's the one who killed that old man and... I have such a horrible fear that Draco will run away from everyone and be all alone and oh my God, who will feed him? I do want Snape and his boy to be all right!

I am also, now you've made this post, scared to death of the 'killing the father' trope. If Harry kills Snape and then finds out he was innocent it will crush my soul.


From: [identity profile] agarttha.livejournal.com

no subliminal messages


when yyou read these words, Maya, you will immediately go to your computer and start writing about poor Draco-all-alone...


this message will not self-destruct in five seconds...um, we couldn't figure out the technology; plus, it's rude.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 02:53 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] pilly2009.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 09:03 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 10:08 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lilian-cho.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-25 11:19 pm (UTC) - Expand
ext_3190: Red icon with logo "I drink Nozz-a-la- Cola" in cursive. (snapetrio)

From: [identity profile] primroseburrows.livejournal.com


I've always loved the Snape-Draco dynamic, and I think there definitely is a father-son relationship between the two. As for Harry, yes, I think it's there, too, but it isn't wanted on either side. Harry doesn't want to be under Snape's protection and Snape certainly doesn't want to do it. "James Potter Redux" is a good description of how I think Snape sees Harry. As for Draco, I think he loves him. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Snape is Draco's godfather in actuality. It's a fic cliche, but cliche's exist for a reason, too.
ext_6866: (Baby magpies)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Yes--[livejournal.com profile] mahoni was right above to challenge the word "father-figure" because it implies that Harry looks up to him or Snape cares about him, but it's more like they're stuck in these roles without liking it one bit.

And I do think he could be Draco's godfather--I wonder how well they knew each other, if at all, before.

From: [identity profile] shusu.livejournal.com


Wow. This made so much sense.

What fascinates me now is Snape's relationship with his mother. He followed her into Quidditch and potions. He touts her name over his own father's. And what he said to Draco, that lulling spell, that reaction could only have come from his mother, since she was the witch in the family. His father certainly wouldn't have understood the intricacies of blood and magic. (Though I want to meet the elder Snape now.)

Mom picking up after little Severus, that just makes me cry. It will be all right if you use the right potion; chin up, it will heal.

Not to mention it gives me an excellent reason why he favors Millicent in CoS (by throwing Hermione to her like so much fresh meat). Perhaps she reminds him of his mother.
ext_6866: (Baby magpies)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Ha! Well, any mention of Millicent is great in my book. I loved seeing her in OotP and wished she'd popped up here. But it's true...we think about Snape coming up with these curses and hexing people, but for the first time here we see him having to deal with the aftermath.

It makes me wonder what it might have been like had the situation been reversed and Harry had gotten hurt here. Snape would still have healed him, I think, and he probably would have been just as icy to Draco for doing something like that, but I wonder if the healing would have been quite as...sweet.:-)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] shusu.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 10:39 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] shusu.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 10:59 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] shusu.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-22 11:02 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lilian-cho.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-25 11:22 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] shusu.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-07-31 03:47 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lilian-cho.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-08-02 03:48 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] shusu.livejournal.com - Date: 2005-08-03 11:02 pm (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] athenakt.livejournal.com


A wonderful essay! I wish I could comment extensively on it, but instead, here's a thought...

Snape is to Harry and Draco what
Dumbledore was to Snape and Sirius

It could perhaps be said differently, perhaps even substituting James for Sirius, but the concept is there. :)
ext_6866: (Cousins)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Hee-I love shifting those guys around. In OotP I loved pointing out that Draco is a present even while absent in the Pensieve scene. There's James being a jerk, and Harry's there, and Snape, but it just couldn't be a coincidence that it's Draco who gives Harry the opportunity to go into the Pensieve by taking Snape away, and Draco that Harry decides would deserve the spell he saw done on Snape. And a couple of times in OotP Sirius reminded me of Draco as well--it's the book where we find out they're related. It's just this ever shifting cast!

From: [identity profile] ariadneelda.livejournal.com


Great analysis! Your essays are always a pleasure to read. :)

The bathroom scene was one of my favourites. The incantation that sounded almost like song did strike me as uncharacteristic for Snape and I loved it just for that - loved seeing this other side of Snape. Like the side of Snape we saw in Chapter 2.

Speaking of Chapter 2 and since you mentioned the Unbreakable Vow, I think Snape must have known what he was getting himself into. He doesn't strike me as someone who would consent to commit to something without knowing what it was about.

And I just need to say this: I always loved Snape but now I love him more than ever!
ext_6866: (Watching and waiting)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks! I love him more than ever too. He's amazingly badass in his scene with the Black sisters, really. I wonder if, at the end of the series, we'll really be able to interpret all of his odd little twitches and flashes of emotion, so we'll know more what he was feeling in any particular scene.

From: [identity profile] violaswamp.livejournal.com


Yes--for Harry, Snape is like all the worst aspects of fatherhood made manifest. Judging, criticizing, disciplining--and yet instructing, but always in the most odious of ways. Meanwhile for Draco he's more of a nurturing father.
ext_6866: (Baby magpies)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


And the idea of Snape nurturing anyone is just so...damn weird!:-)
Page 1 of 2 << [1] [2] >>
.

Profile

sistermagpie: Classic magpie (Default)
sistermagpie

Most Popular Tags

Powered by Dreamwidth Studios

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags