Who knew I could ever write this much about Hermione?

[sistermagpie]

I started writing this post pre-HBP, so it’s mostly about Hermione in OotP, but I mention some things from HBP at the end. It’s about something that seems to me is one of the biggest driving forces with Hermione as a character, yet I haven’t often seen it discussed (probably because I’m just not looking in the right places). It starts out focusing on Hermione’s actions when it came to Harry/Cho.

Hermione Granger, Saboteur

I started thinking about this pre-HBP, when I saw a pro-R/Hr essay that dismissed the idea of Hermione sabotaging Harry’s relationship with Cho as H/Hr delusion. Now, I have never been an H/Hr shipper and my money was on R/Hr for canon, yet I still think that Hermione did sabotage Harry relationship with Cho Chang because, well, she did. She obstructed the normal operations of their interactions with each other. Perhaps this is one of the times when fandom’s focus on shipping is a distraction, because it’s assumed the only reason she’d have to do this would be to get Harry for herself romantically. Really, though, I don’t think it has anything to do with romance and everything to do with how Hermione sees herself, her own insecurities, and the way she relates to others. It’s instinct for her, I think, though something she’s perhaps getting better at, particularly in HBP—or at least being more honest about it.

I hope this does not accidentally set off a discussion about Hermione or Cho as love interests or anything about shipping, or a discussion of whether or not Hermione is a good friend. That's not really what I'm getting at. What I think is that Hermione did undermine Harry's relationship with Cho, even if she never consciously had that as an intention. First, to just use what I know about life, I have been the friend of a boy, and I know that there are certain things you do when you wouldn't mind him dropping a girl, which are different from the ways you act if you're truly being supportive. (Hermione is clearly in the former category.) But more importantly, I think it's a consistent part of Hermione's personality that isn't often talked about, the way that she supports, yes, but also undermines others, almost by instinct.

One of the arguments against Hermione doing anything to ruin H/C is that Hermione gives her approval to the pairing and even works to bring it about. This is true, but that's Hermione's pattern. She often does a 180-degree turn once her stated goal is in sight. In OotP this happens a few times and Ron calls her on it. When Hermione starts panicking about the meeting at the Hogs Head after Sirius gives his approval, Ron says something along the lines of, "This was YOUR idea! Why are you tearing it down?" Well, that's what Hermione does. She chokes at the last minute and starts questioning herself, needing outside validation for the idea she's been gung-ho on until now, perhaps wanting to be the outsider who's critiquing rather than the person who's out there for criticism. Throughout the book she jumps from one side to the other, usually driving Ron crazy, because it seems like as soon as she gets everybody on board with her plan, she starts criticizing it as if it's someone else's crazy idea and let's think of the potential bad outcomes. I feel like this is a combination of insecurity on her part about failure, but also insecurity about being so successful she’s no longer needed.

In PS/SS Hermione runs off crying and Ron says, "She must know that she's got no friends." She didn't have friends, but she does now. Ron and Harry, specifically, and the Weasleys attached to them. Part of her relationship with them entails letting them copy her notes and going over their homework. She also comes up with schemes to help them, especially Harry, with their problems. (In OotP that's essentially all she does.) She's often trying to help others--Hagrid with his court case, the house elves with their freedom, Neville with his homework. The thing is, if somebody just said to you, "those are my best friends. I take notes for them," you'd be tempted to think, “If they were your friends you wouldn't have to take their notes.”

Obviously, it's not quite that simple, since Ron and Harry clearly aren't threatening Hermione that they won't be friends anymore if she doesn't do these things. But that doesn't mean that in the back of her mind Hermione doesn't suspect they would and need to feel everything would fall apart without her there to keep it together (Harry in first year, is quick to describe being friends with Hermione in terms of the advantages it brings when she helps him learn about Quidditch). I don't mean specifically that she fears if she stops helping with the boys' homework (and sometimes doing it for them) they won't be her friends anymore. I mean a more free-floating anxiety that if she isn't needed, and if they are self-sufficient, she'll be rejected. It's not an uncommon way of thinking, and it often leads to a subtly trying to make or keep others dependent, since their being independent or finding someone else can be a threat. Like sometimes you'll see it in the secretary who creates a filing system that nobody else can follow so that they always have to be asked to find anything. (Can you tell I worked with one of those?) It is certainly true that when Hermione is angry at the boys she withdraws her academic help to dramatic effect.

With Cho, I don't think it's a case of Hermione thinking, "That bitch is trying to take my place!" Early on in the year she makes H/C one of her projects. She becomes part of H/C by scolding Ron when he says the wrong thing to Cho and by pointing out to Harry when Cho is interested. (Cho’s interest, imo, is the thing that spurs Hermione to get involved—if something’s going down, she wants to feel somewhat in control of it.) Then she becomes the interpreter, explaining to Harry how Cho feels. H/C, which until OotP has always been a rather private dream of Harry's, now has Hermione all over it. Ironically, her explanations of Cho tend to make Harry feel more hopeless than ever, and she really doesn't present Cho in the best light by telling Harry how she's been crying over the place, etc. When Harry returns to the common room after his mistletoe encounter, and is in a daze, Hermione briskly asks, "Did you kiss?" She's taking matters in hand, being mature enough to not be silly about stuff like this, but frankly I think that attitude is also a way of asserting control over what is, objectively, a potentially scary situation: “It's no big deal, just what I expected, just part of my plan.” If Harry and Cho truly got together and fell in love, it would be anything but no big deal. Hermione’s place certainly will change if Harry gets a serious girlfriend. (Note: I suppose one could think that Hermione has another reason to not want H/C to happen: she’s supporting H/G. But I find that thought a little too repulsive as a woman, so I’m going to give Hermione the benefit of the doubt here.)

Now, if you were truly supportive of your friend finally getting a date with his crush, you would respect Cho and the date as important. Instead, on the day of the date, Hermione announces she has something planned for Harry that day, which he can bring Cho to "if he must." I realize that Hermione only has the one day in Hogsmeade to get Harry to meet with Rita-there's a plot reason she's doing this today that's got nothing to do with Cho. But still, she presents her plan with Cho as a minor detail, not apologizing to Harry for this or giving him any details, especially the important one that they will be meeting others, which would have helped things with Cho. Withholding information is also something Hermione does, liking to hold onto it as long as possible (sometimes hinting broadly that she knows something others don't). Once the information is shared she's not as needed, so she holds out until the last minute, or most dramatic moment.

Despite H/C earlier seeming to be a project of Hermione's, she doesn't think to even ask about Harry's date until the next day, at which point she shows that she did indeed understand the potential harm in Harry running off to meet her at noon, and feigns (imo) incredulity at Harry not knowing to pretend he was reluctant to meet Hermione and to say Hermione was ugly. This is a girl who's spent most of the book showing how well she can predict how people will react to things before they do it. Surely just as she could predict Cho’s reaction she would know Harry would never know to play the kind of game she's claiming she thought he would instinctively play. If Hermione’s actions had been done by another girl, I can’t help but think Hermione herself would claim the girl did it on purpose.

Again, the point here isn't that Hermione set out to destroy H/C and did it. It's more that I think Hermione has a pattern of supporting and undermining in equal measure, and that this is part of an anxiety at keeping herself needed. It wasn't that she was destroying H/C, but that the more real H/C became, the more worrisome it would become, the more potentially out of her control. OotP is surprisingly full of times when Hermione causes stress for Harry (that's often completely passed over) even while scolding him to avoid stress. Both times Harry gets detention in Umbridge's class it's Hermione who starts the trouble, even though afterwards Hermione counsels Harry to keep his head down and McGonnagal holds Hermione up as someone who knows how not to antagonize the teacher. Elsewhere, Hermione nags Harry to study, and yet it is she and not Ron who distracts him when he's trying to concentrate by making disapproving noises at the twins. Hermione nags Harry to do Occlumency, yet when he tries to practice it's Hermione who continually interrupts him by asking him what's wrong. When Snape nastily drops Harry's potion sample Harry turns around to get more--and discovers Hermione has taken it upon herself to vanish everything away.

Obviously I'm not blaming Hermione for Harry's troubles in those cases. It's not her fault if Harry doesn't do his homework, and it's not like she constantly keeps him from studying. Harry chose not to tell her what he was doing when he was practicing Occlumency and chose not to find a more suitable place to practice. It's not her fault Snape played a nasty trick on Harry, and she cleaned up his potion after he brought up his sample. The point isn't that she's some sort of bad guy intentionally hurting Harry. It's that these things *do* have something in common that I find significant. Hermione is so focused on pushing Harry to do his homework and is always scolding him to study, but these are times when Harry *is* studying, or working on his Occlumency, or doing fine on his potion and Hermione was the character chosen to interfere to make things more difficult. I just think this makes perfect sense with what we see, which is not somebody who truly wants everyone to be as good a student as she is, but someone who feels anxious at the idea of people not needing her at all.

I don't have a list in my head of other times when Hermione has done this, but take, for instance, Gryffindor losing points because Hermione is helping Neville (unless I’m remember that wrong—she’s scolded for it, at least). Hermione has been connected to Neville this way since PS. I don't think Neville really solicits her help, but he seems to obviously need it and doesn't reject it. Her help has little affect on Neville's progress—it’s Harry who’s responsible for Neville’s progress in OotP. True, Neville seems to have the advantage of being more enraged in OotP which somehow translates into better spell work, but I still think it fits the pattern. It just seems natural to me, given her characterization in 5 books, that Hermione doesn't tutor people to become better students; she helps them by doing their work for them and telling them the answer.

Again (trying to avoid any misunderstandings or defensiveness in advance, which may or may not be necessary), the point isn't here that Hermione isn't as "good" as she seems or anything like that. It's that all the characters in the series tend to be associated with certain behaviors or stances, and this is part of Hermione's.

In HBP I think Hermione comes across as more sympathetic (though to some people she’s been destroyed because she’s too needy) because she’s forced to be more open about what she really wants. Rather than presenting herself as the infallible one with the plan, Hermione wants Ron to like her, dammit! Not need her or rely on her, but just like her.

The book also puts her in situations where her need to be right or be needed is more, well, needy. Harry rightfully calls her out for Confunding McClaggen and then scolding Harry for giving Ron liquid luck. Hermione is okay with her own decision to help Ron, but slips back into Prefect-mode when Harry breaks the rules to help Ron. Shades of Neville here, as well, in that Harry *doesn’t* give Ron the Felix Felicitas, he tricks him into having more confidence. Harry has truly helped Ron to do well on his own. Hermione did something for him so the deck is stacked in his favor, thanks to her. She protests that she’d never tell Ron what she did, but she certainly knows that Ron owes his place on the team to her.

Harry’s Potions textbook obviously gets to Hermione this way as well. She’s been re-writing essays for years, especially for Ron, but is angered at the idea of Harry relying on somebody else’s Potions advice? The book is a threat to Hermione, making Harry not only independently interested in schoolwork but better than she is. (There’s other issues with the book as well, of course).

Finally, I think it’s really funny that, iirc, Hermione comes to terms with the book the way she usually does, but finding something to be right about. She’s flat-out-wrong about the HBP being a girl. Harry’s instincts that he was “talking” to a boy were correct. But Hermione ferrets out the information that the book had originally belonged to Eileen Prince and says, "I was right, though, sort of." Sure, if by “right” you mean “wrong.” But obviously she needs to feel she offered some help. You can’t help but compare this to Harry, who told everybody to pay attention to Malfoy all year and was ignored by everyone. Of the two of them it’s Harry’s who’s got every reason to say ‘I told you so,’ but he doesn’t, because Harry doesn’t have the same need to be right. Oh, he’s furious at being called a liar in OotP, but that’s a slightly different thing. It’s important to Harry that people know the truth. Harry wants to be right, Hermione needs to be…correct.

(I’m not going to go into an analysis of H/G given this tendency of Hermione’s, but I do think that the fact that it was *Ginny* Hermione was helping in that relationship is significant.)

I think, too, that this is why SPEW is such a pet project of hers. It’s perfect, really, because it lets Hermione feel completely correct while never so far having any hint of success. Hermione can *feel* like she’s the only one taking care of the house elves without ever having to deal with any practical results of her actions.

Comments

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

I love Hermione. I relate to Hermione.

You said nothing here that makes Hermione anything but - well, smartgirl insecure. Hermione is the sort of girl who thinks that the only thing she has going for her is her brain - I suspect that her friends in primary school treated her the same way.

And she's not a teacher. She doesn't have the patience or the skills to teach unless the person is talented already (shades of Snape, imho.) Harry's a born teacher, and it shows.

I wonder - what she's really doing is sabotaging herself so that if she does fail, well, she predicted it so she's still in the clear, and if she succeeds, she succeeds. Or something.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You said nothing here that makes Hermione anything but - well, smartgirl insecure.

Is that a bad thing? I mean just that that's what I thought I was saying, if in a long-winded way. Or is that in reference to my worrying people would take it as my saying Hermione was a bad guy for being this way?

I wonder - what she's really doing is sabotaging herself so that if she does fail, well, she predicted it so she's still in the clear, and if she succeeds, she succeeds. Or something.

That does make sense--if she's always thinking several steps ahead she's probably always going to consider the possibility of failure, even if that failure is due to something crazy. Like when she is waiting for her OWLS in HBP she's worried that she failed everything even though that's ridiculous.

[ex-ella-bane358.livejournal.com]

This is an analysis of Hermione I can agree with. I enjoy Hermione in the books, and I've definitely seen the undertones of insecurity inherent in her character. I've read interviews with JKR where she's stated implicitly that Harry needs Hermione, and yes, I can see that. But Hermione also needs Harry. Even with her obvious brilliance, she needs people around her who count on her. I still adore her, but I can see that the measure of control she has over Harry and Ron must be a validation of sorts for her.

The latter part of OotP and for most of HBP the trio friendship is at its very strongest and for me was the best parts of both books. But my single favorite scene regarding their friendship comes from PoA. It's after the kerfuffle with Ron's missing rat and Harry's brand new broomstick. Both boys have been ignoring her, so Hermione is left alone to help with Hagrid's case. The boys have no use for her, so she moves on. I believe she genuinely likes Hagrid too, but she's always shown reservations for Hagrid's teaching style/scary habits, but she still goes forward with her help, and in the back of her mind -- it's probably more for Harry's sake than Hagrid's. See, I'm still a good friend. I help those who need me. I've completely digressed, but the line comes from Hagrid and he scolds the boys, "I gotta tell yeh, I thought you two'd value yer friend more'n a broomstick or rats." That line for some reason makes me tear up every single time I read it. It could be that I identify with Hermione or something, but I just wanted kiss Hagrid and shake those two boys.

As for HBP, I've seen cries all about of how Hermione's character has been assassinated, but I don't see that. This is still Hermione, but it's a Hermione who's needs are showing more obviously now. Her canary attack on Ron was perhaps my favorite scene (after all the Malfoy/Harry ones, of course!). I felt for Hermione in that single scene more than any other.

Great essay!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! And yeah, I did think that was more the difference in HBP. I remember pre-HBP somebody said something about OotP Hermione that seemed like they liked the very things I hoped wouldn't continue from that book--they saw that book as just Hermione showing how amazing she was. Whereas for me in that book Hermione just often tired me out she was so constantly working on stuff--SPEW, Harry's problems, Hagrid's problems, the DA, Rita... I *didn't* think it was a "strong" book for Hermione in exactly that way...I guess I might say it reminded me a little of PoA when she's stressing out with the Time Turner. It was a dryer Hermione for me.

[tinderblast.livejournal.com]

I’m not going to go into an analysis of H/G given this tendency of Hermione’s, but I do think that the fact that it was *Ginny* Hermione was helping in that relationship is significant.

Given how cunty (oh, sorry, 'independent, strong, and very, very funny')Ginny was to everyone in the book, including Hermione, I"d really like to know what you think of the H/G relationship.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

ROTFL! Cunty.:-D

That would mean I've to think about it seriously, but I'll try to. I just know that for me Ginny will always now be about that, "You'll only embarass yourself," line that Hermione was somehow not able to counter, even though she's probably got an encyclopedic knowledge of Quidditch by now. >:-0

[tehlils.livejournal.com]

Wow. I think you just nailed something on the head. It's not something I've thought about really, but it makes perfect sense.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm glad to hear you thought so!

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

Oh, excellent essay! I'll have to think on this--I may have more to say later, but right now I just want to say that I think you've nailed Hermione, and brought her character into clear focus for me. Thank you!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thank you! For saying so--hee!

[mad_maudlin]

I really have nothing ot contribute except more applause here--really good points all around. I remember the scene in HBP where Hermione was rewriting one of Harry's essays and wanting to strangle her--because I work in a writing center, and that would be a complete violation of both professional ethics and pedagogical theory. Nobody learns anything by just having something rewritten. It never occured to me that that might be the point.

But I did pick up on something later in the book--when Ron's quill goes haywire, Hermione fixes his typos and later cleans the ink from his essay, but she doesn't go so far as to write the ending for him (though that's what he was struggling with). Of course, that's the same scene where Ron drops the L-bomb--not ernestly, but it's there, and Hermione reacts to it. Makes me think now!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Yeah, it shocked me every time she rewrote things for the boys. On the one hand just because I would never do anybody's work for them (I'm too lazy), but also because isn't she supposed to be all about the rules? Isn't that cheating? She's more help when she's angry at them, really.

[renata-hpjc.livejournal.com]

I love this essay so much. I'm one of those crazy H/Hr shippers who really thought that Harry and Hermione would be getting together at some point, and I really didn't think she had much interest in Ron. (There are some truly incredible essays floating around H/Hr shipperdom, mixed in with the crud!) I interpreted so much of Hermione's character in the light of those two things that I was left floundering by HBP and JKR's subsequent interview. So much of what I thought I knew about one of my favorite characters was proven wrong -- even worse, the vacuum left by all those wrong interpretations seemed to be filled by such uninteresting, negative things (jealousy, more jealousy, petty spitefulness due to latent attraction towards Ron, yet more jealousy, unmitigated self-righteousness, even more jealousy, yawn ...), or to be unexplainable entirely.

Hermione's interference with the H/C relationship was one of the latter. If an unrecognized attraction for Harry wasn't the explanation for her simultaneous encouragement of and sabotaging of H/C, then what was? Your explanation is not only plausible, but in fits in perfectly with a part of Hermione's character that I'd always recognized but never really thought through the implications of. And it does go a long way toward making her sympathetic to me in HBP, too, rather than baffling or annoying.

So again, thank you! I was bound and determined to find some way to like Hermione again after the confusion of HBP, and this is the first explanation that really smooths out some of the discordance in my head.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! That's good to hear--especially if it replaces the whole jealousy jealousy spitefulness idea, because it does sometimes see like that's the only thing that's presented as an alternative. And anything that makes canon more pleasant is always good.:-)

It's funny because although it thought JKR was going for R/Hr it seems like such an awful relationship for both of them to me. In my mind they're already divorced!

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

This essay really makes me want to keep a much closer eye on Hermione when I finally get around to the next re-read. Her most conspicuous traits -- as both a personality and a literary device -- are so strongly marked that it's easy to settle for a superficial take on Hermione, but the more attentively you look at her, the more complexity there is.

The way you untangle the thread of passive sabotage in Hermione's behavior is just wonderful, and I'm totally sold on it. I think you're absolutely right that the Cho thing is not about romantic jealousy, but is Hermione's way of reacting to things that shake the tight bond of the Trio -- first, maybe unrealistically, Harry's infatuation with Cho is re-cast as something that Hermione can vicariously share in as a friend, but then as the seriousness of a romantic connection presents itself Cho has to be considered a disruption, a source of insecurity. And I love the knife-edge you walk by presenting what Hermione does as something instinctive, a way of unconsciously managing her anxieties, rather than as a "bad" character trait or something consciously malicious. You've got all her unconscious little tricks down perfectly: the bids for superiority and the efforts to create dependence, the strategic withdrawals of assistance, the way she channels her hurt into passive-aggressive behavior that makes her feel less disregarded.

So what are the roots of all this? One of your commenters thinks it's typical smart-girl insecurity. I think there's some of that, under the general heading of her fear of being liked/admired for the wrong things, while things she's really proud of being (or wants to be recognized as being) are disregarded. I think smart people, just like some very attractive people (and yes, it's fun to put those two traits in parallel in the same sentence!) tend to be a little creeped out by excessive admiration for their particular gift, because it seems like such an unearned attribute, something that just happened to them and not the essence of who they are. So Hermione seems determined to show that she works all the time, that she's earned her academic success through conscious effort. And even more, she seems determined to prove that she's more than just "smart" -- I've argued before that she really craves being a Person of Action, someone competent and effective in a worldly way rather than just someone bookish, even though her strengths really don't lie in that direction.

So a lot of these contradictions in her behavior maybe come down to uncertainty over who she is and who she wants to be. She alternately disparages her intelligence and clings to it because at least it's a proven source of worth; she alternately poses as someone worldly and effective and then crumples and falters in fear that it's just a fraud. She commits herself to attitudes or courses of action and then gets horribly insecure about them, consciously or unconsciously undermines them. And because she doesn't quite like or believe in herself, because she wants to be someone different, maybe, she's always on the alert for signs that her friends might see her as dispensible or as an imposter, someone they might "get past" and stop caring about.

You make me love her more, which is an impressive trick for meta. :)

[gingersomething.livejournal.com]

the essay and this comment just made me realize that hermione and i are way more alike than i thought. so thank you both.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

This is a great essay, and I especially loved the part about Hermione's sabotaging of Harry/Cho. I've never thought Hermione had any romantic interest in Harry at all. But at the same time, I did think her interference in the H/C date showed a lot about her issues. The way she talks about Cho is telling--when she tells Harry to meet her in Hogsmeade for the Rita thing, she's very dismissive of Cho, and it's like she's saying "Yes, dear, go play with your little girlfriend--but you must come meet me later. Remember, it's what we do that's truly important, not your silly flirting."

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's exactly how it came across to me. That's why I started thinking about it specifically after an OBHWF shipper talked about how silly H/Hr shippers were for suggesting Hermione could do such a thing to H/C, especially when she approved of the relationship. If I were Cho's friend I'd definitely think Hermione didn't want them together.

[gingersomething.livejournal.com]

This makes perfect sense. I don't even have a response because it's so well thought-out. So I'll just say I agree completely. Essays about Hermione are always my favorite because so many people interpret her so shallowly. She's not a strong, independent woman. She's a normal girl with some special talents. She's HUMAN. And I think you've done a great job of pointing out her faults without making her seem like a bad guy (because she's definitely not bad). Very good job!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Yeah, I just don't fine the Super Strong Independent Hermione reading sympathetic really. I always think if I were Hermione in my mind I'd always hear that, "She must have noticed she's got no friends," no matter what happened.

[grimorie.livejournal.com]

There's nothing I could say that hasn't been said before, I think you nailed Hermione's character very well. Hermione has always been my point of view character in the series, and will admit with shuffling feet that I liked how Hermione was depicted in OoTP... I've always liked characters who show unexpected ruthless darkside:)

I also liked that in the beginning she wasn't very well liked by both Harry and Ron, which I think fuels most of her insecurities... which you've already tackled more eloquently. So, my point? Your brain is pretty. Is all:)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hee! *feels pretty*

[desolatemusings.livejournal.com]

Hello. It's me again.

I feel like this is a combination of insecurity on her part about failure, but also insecurity about being so successful she’s no longer needed.

Actually, i might be projecting a bit here, but i know that a lot of kids who are fairly intelligent think that their intellect is the only thing they have to offer. She probably thinks her intellect defines her and has a hard time pinpointing other aspects of herself that make her unique. Hermione does the work for other people rather than bring them up to her level because she fears that if she does bring them up to her level, they will lose interest/not want her as a friend. Her intelligence is the one thing that she has over her friends, and she's probably not willing to relinquish that. Not out of malice, but because she thinks that if she loses her role in the group as "the smart one," then she won't have a role at all. Another example is the fact that she has no friends that are her intellectual equals. You'd think that as an intelligent girl, Hermione would want to have a few friends, outside of the trio, that are equals with her intellectually, but, from what we know, she doesn't really have any friends like that (Ron and Harry are great kids but future Einsteins they are not). It highlights her insecurity about her role within her group of friends as well as her insecurity concerning her intellect. If there's someone smarter than her, she loses what makes her "special." Not that i think that "smart" defines her, but she probably thinks it does. I think that's typical of quite a few smart teenagers.

I hope i'm not just repeating exactly everything you've already mentioned, but in case i did, it just goes to show how much i agreed.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I absolutely agree. It's funny I wasn't even thinking about it that way, but it's true. Her relationship with Harry and Ron really does put her in a unique position, because in the real world (after school) she probably would know other people on her same level. Compared to them, though, she's just a complete alien. It probably makes her relate to her own intelligence in a different way--one that might ultimately make it hard for her to learn to deal with people on the same level.

[ljash.livejournal.com]

The comments were so interesting that I forgot most of my reaction to the essay. Here goes:

In OotP I ended up just being annoyed at Hermione's comments about Cho because they seemed unrealistic. She seemed to be Exposition Gal with Rowling able to say what's going on by having Hermione casually comment on it. It didn't annoy me too much because I decided that Hermione would actually do that, so it wasn't wildly out of character. But my first thought was that I was being shown an author cheat, that I was being told what was going on because it's harder to show.

However, why did I think Hermione would do that? At the time it was because she had knowledge and Harry didn't, so she just told him. She seemed oblivious to the fact that it was all emotionally important to Harry. It didn't occur to me that she was trying to sabotage them, so I didn't get into the whole debate as to why.

But I do see her being annoyed at Harry's attention being diverted elsewhere. When I recalled her interrupting his date, I mostly saw her annoyance at Harry not being available for their adventures. He had a date, and she didn't want to think it was important enough to interrupt her plans and the threesome's goals (which admittedly are important most of the time). It's the way a guy friend would react to his friend's girlfriend--she takes up too much of his time and attention, she takes him away from me.

And I think you're on the nose about her wanting to be needed. She's there to help and provide things that everyone needs, but if she does her job too well then they won't need her anymore. Maybe they'd just drop her. And that might not be too far off the mark. Maybe they would.

Funny, isn't it, that Ginny doesn't interfere in the way Cho did. That Harry ends up putting off Ginny because she might get hurt and going off to enjoy the day with Hermione and Ron. A lot of people complained that we were told Ginny and Harry were happy together but were never shown any of it. We also weren't shown how Ron and Hermione reacted to this. (well, ron a little bit, but not how they reacted to his time being taken up elsewhere. Then again, they might have been busy, themselves.)

oh, my thoughts are not collected today.

I also liked that bit in your comments about how she's brililantly intelligent but not necessarily an intuitive genius. She's an encyclopedia and she's able to correllate her information easily, so she can always come up with useful stuff. But she doesn't invent new things. She's not Einstein, or even Snape. There's frequently been little hints that Snape is an intuitive genius, although perhaps not as smart as he'd like. Since her whole self-esteem comes from being smart that sets her up for some major falls, both of the kind when the half-blood prince can come up with things she can't, and when her store of information is not perfect enough (like her insecurity about Quidditch).

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ginny is so different in that she's always been part of the package. She's Ron's sister--that's why I always think of the two of them being almost sisters in law rather than friends. They always seemed to have a relationship through the boys and relate to each other that way. It's hard to imagine what they might be like if Hermione *had* been unlucky enough to like Harry instead of Ron.

I do think that Hermione's intelligence (the non-Einstein type) is really important to the kind of character she is--I mean, from day one she's been a swot, a teacher's pet. Very different from some misunderstood genius. It changes the types of information she provides and how she provides it. She's what the story needs, but that brings on a lot more insecurity for her, I think, than the other type of person might bring. Or a different type of insecurity that makes her clash with others more.

[latxcvi.livejournal.com]

This is a great essay that does a good job, I think, of getting at the heart of some of Hermione's more exasperating behavior throughout the books, and the "why" of that behavior. This, in particular, really struck me:

I don't mean specifically that she fears if she stops helping with the boys' homework (and sometimes doing it for them) they won't be her friends anymore. I mean a more free-floating anxiety that if she isn't needed, and if they are self-sufficient, she'll be rejected. It's not an uncommon way of thinking, and it often leads to a subtly trying to make or keep others dependent, since their being independent or finding someone else can be a threat. Like sometimes you'll see it in the secretary who creates a filing system that nobody else can follow so that they always have to be asked to find anything. (Can you tell I worked with one of those?) It is certainly true that when Hermione is angry at the boys she withdraws her academic help to dramatic effect.

I can absolutely see this underpinning a lot of Hermione's "bossiness" with Harry and Ron, and with the way she's willing, for example, to more or less do their homework for them when they bugger it up and that's somehow not actually cheating in her mind, but Harry relying on the HBP's Advanced Potions book is problematic to her.

One of my other fandoms is Smallville, which purports to tells the story of a young Superman in the making. There's an episode from season 2 where Clark's crush Lana Lang starts learning martial arts from his (then) good friend Lex Luthor. Now, Clark's spent large chunks of seasons 1 and 2 saving Lana from certain mortal peril, and one of the aspects of their budding friendship with each other is her inuitive understanding that he's always there for her when she really needs it (she's often unconscious when he saves her life, but often learns that "Clark was there ... somehow" after-the-fact. Anyway, Clark is talking about Lana's lessons with Lex to another of their friends, Chloe, and he's being kind of a wet blanket about it, worrying that Lana might get in over her head, that it might make her overconfident in herself, that she might not be able to handle it as well as Lex, etc. And Chloe has this wonderful moment of insight where she calls him on his worrying by pointing out that perhaps he's resistant to Lana learning self-defense because if she can adequately defend and protect herself, then she might not *need* to have Clark save her all the time.

It really takes Clark aback and he ponders it. What's interesting about it and the reason it ties into what you're saying about Hermione is that Chloe was right: Clark can't give Lana what she most wants from him, which is the truth of all the weirdness that surrounds and happens because of him, but his being her personal knight in shining armor (literally) *is* one of the ways he's able to connect with her and one of the ways she needs him. He's threatened by the potential of losing that connection if she's able to fend for herself. I can totally see the same kind of un- or subconscious insecurity on Hermione's part where her relationship with Harry and Ron is concerned. A big part of how she initially connected with them was being useful in getting through the defenses protecting the Sorcerer's Stone and neutralizing Neville, even though she was breaking rules to help them. So being useful/needed is a big part of her connection to/with them.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That's especially true after OotP where Hermione literally seems to spend the entire book looking for things to take care of. She's got SPEW in her spare time, and writes to Viktor. But other times she's dealing with Umbridge, Harry's dreams, the DA, Harry's love life, the boys' homework, people not believing Harry, the break-ins at the Ministry, studying for OWLS, everyone else studying for OWLS. The end of HBP has Harry looking forward to a day in the sun, but it would make sense if Hermione sometimes wondered just what her school life would have been like without Voldemort. Would she have been as friendly with Harry and Ron? There's just never been a time for 6 years when there hasn't been something that had to be handled.

And Harry, like Clark, is separated from her significantly because the final battle is really about him. Hermione's really muscled her way into the whole struggle against Voldemort from the outside. Sometimes I even wonder if that's also why she winds up spending zero time with her family. She didn't seem to be able to get out of Christmas this year, but she spends a lot of time at the burrow. I wonder if she just worries about missing out if she's not there. We think of Harry feeling cut off, but of course it's a totally different thing. Nobody's going to forget Harry.

here via daily snitch

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

I get so tired of reading essays about Hermione's intentions towards Cho/Harry being romantic, I'm so glad you didn't go that route with yours.

I think part of the problem with why people are so wtf about Hermione, is because a lot of people identify with her in this fandom, and just couldn't imagine Hermione doing the things she did in HBP(read: I can't imagine myself doing such things! Why would Hermione?), but Hermione isn't a saint and I never thought that was JKR's purpose with her, I think she's very insecure(like you said in your essay), and even though she sees one of her friends as more than a friend(Ron), you're very correct that she cares about both boys deeply.

It's also interesting that even though Hermione showed all of the things you listed with the Harry/Cho relationship, she seems ok with H/G. I think the reason for this is that besides Harry and Ron, Hermione is friends with Ginny, hence why I think she won't show a repeat of her OoTP behavior with their relationship, we'll see.

Re: here via daily snitch

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think the whole thing with Ginny is she's always been part of it for Hermione. It may even go beyond her being friends with Ginny and get into her being Ron's sister as well. Ginny was always going to factor in. As I said above, it's hard to imagine how awful things would have been if Hermione did happen to fancy Harry really!

It's funny because different people have different ideas about what is a bad thing for Hermione to do. Like the way her actions get read by people. A lot of what people sometimes describe as basically Hermione objectively handling things are just the things I see as her being insecure but hiding it by pretending to be in control.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi-lurker here! Hope you don't mind me commenting. This analysis of Hermione has been fascinating (of course your meta posts usually are!). I was just thinking about what's been said about Hermione feeling inferior and believing that her intelligence is all she has to offer. I think her fears of being inadequate or dispensable are also seen in her insecurity about her appearance and her desire for people to recognise her as being physically attractive. Throughout the series, she scorns Ron when he moons over the pretty girls, or rates beauty as the most important feature in a prospective partner. Yet she herself often seeks to be recognised as physically attractive. She gets Madam Pompfrey to shrink her teeth and she transforms herself for the Yule Ball in a way that suggests she wanted to surprise people and get them to sit up an take notice of her as a pretty girl. Her "ugly" comment to Harry in OotP feels like she was fishing for a compliment- she wanted validation from Harry, wanted him to to tell her she was pretty. Not necessarily because she fancied him, but because he was a male, and she wanted to be told that she was physically desirable by a member of the opposite sex, that she has more going for her than just her brains.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

I had exactly that thought in OotP with her ugly comment. I don't think it was consciously looking for a compliment the way it would have been played with, say, Lavender, but it was a way of being helpful and no-nonsense, still knowing Harry would say she wasn't ugly. It seems like on one hand she's supposed to be the girl that isn't the pretty one, yet that's kind of destroyed when she shows up at the Yule Ball and is the prettiest.

[quite-grey.livejournal.com]

This is brilliant. I wish I could get so thinky about HP stuff!

*applause*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! Thanks! I seem to have this stuff coming out of my ears at the moment!

[mariagoner.livejournal.com]

Oh Magpie, once again you've shined a light of meta-comprehension on the darkest corners of HPB for me. I have wondered, sporadically, about why bossy Hermione (who always seems so keen to dictate what to do to all around her) might falter so systematically throughout almost all 6 books of the series... from the moment Ron had to tell her to set fire to that evil-plant-thingy (how descriptive!) in the first book onwards. And this-- this post just perfectly explains it! It just... really beautifully gels together so much about her, from her unconcious jealousies and neediness and apparently irrational insecurities to the way she fails to measure up in many ways to the true geniuses of the Harry Potter world.

And since we've been talking so much about Ginny in this discussion so soon... will you ever post your views on the bizarre changes she's gone through way she evolved in Harry's "ideal" girlfriend, according to JKR? You could fling the word "cunty" around with abandon and I doubt many of us would mind at all... :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! It's very tempting, if just to use the words "meta" and "cunty" in the same sentence. Though it might just be too torturous to have to really think about her for long...:-D

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

Hmmm.... This is a very interesting analysis, but I have to admit that I never really interpreted Hermione in that way - or at least to that extreme.

Yes, she's insecure, but she's very strongwilled. She's incredibly logical, and I think that one of her biggest faults is that she expects (or wants) people to think as she does because she believes her way is the correct way, and she has a hard time when people don't think that way, or when they challenge or contradict her. Also, she blindly relies on her own logic and intelligence.

With the Firebolt incident in PoA, considering only the three of them (and Sirius) knew Harry had received it, it was a bit obvious that she told McGonagall, whether she had walked in with her or not. This is not the action of someone who is afraid to upset her friends and risk losing them. She never once considered getting rid of Crookshanks even though she knew rather clearly how Ron felt about her pet. With regard to her taking notes and sharing them, there were plenty of times when both Harry and Ron knew better than to ask her for them.

Their friendship began when Harry and Ron saved her from the troll - a situation in which she was cowering and screaming and they literally rescued her - and then she got them out of trouble by accepting the blame. Hermione didn't contribute at all to the rescue. In fact, it was a rather humbling experience for Hermione considering she was better at magic than both of them at the time and she panicked where they didn't.

I never once saw her as trying to subconsciously subvert the relationship between Harry and Cho. My interpretation was more along the lines that Hermione sees and sets a goal, and when she's in that mode, she's got tunnel vision of sorts. She doesn't think about the consequences. That day in Hogsmeade when Harry was on the date with Cho and Hermione asked him to meet her. Personally, I don't think Hermione cared about the date at all. She had an itinerary that in her mind was much more important than any date - she had a plan. She couldn't tell Harry what it was about beforehand because he never would have agreed to come, or they would have argued incessantly about it. When she remembers he had gone on the date and asks about it, she's all, "Well of course Cho got angry - because you went about it all wrong!" and proceeds to tell him what he should have done, but my impression was that she had expected Harry to know what he should have done in the first place.

She does something similar with the DA - she convinces him of the merit, and doesn't bother to tell Harry just how many people would be coming. She sets it up at the Hogs Head, which turns out to be a mistake as Sirius points out to her. She jinxes the parchment and doesn't tell anyone about that tidbit because her goal is secrecy. (Even though it wasn't illegal when they started it, what they planned to do went directly against Umbridge's teaching and if Umbridge got wind of it, she'd disband the group and they'd all be in trouble.)

When she led Umbridge to the Centaurs, her goal was "I need to get Umbridge out of the way" and she didn't think about the consequences - all she saw was her plan - that the Centaurs would help them and they would be free to leave without Umbridge.

When she panicks and second guesses herself, my view is that it's because people that she sees as reckless and/or somewhat irresponsible, (Sirius, the twins, even Ron and Harry on occasion) think it's a good idea, and in her mind that means her plan must be flawed if they agree with it. And that's the thing with Hermione - she doesn't look at things from all angles She looks at it from her own perspective - she trusts her own logic and intelligence (and book knowledge) over everything else with few exceptions - like Dumbledore and McGonagall. And this blind trust - even in DD and McG - is a huge fault that she still hasn't overcome.

Damn, this got long! I have a few more things I should probably add, but this will suffice for now. I'm not saying that your analysis is wrong by any means, I'm just saying that I personally never saw her that way.

[jandjsalmon.livejournal.com]

Wow! I love reading character essays (and the remarks afterwards)

You said some interesting things. While I do agree with sistermagpie about Hr's insessent need to have the boys (and all her 'friends' in fact) NEED her, I liked what you said about the whole H/C idea.

Hermione sees and sets a goal, and when she's in that mode, she's got tunnel vision of sorts. She doesn't think about the consequences

I think that this is a very true point. She just doesn't think about the consequences, only that here's the plan, this is the right way to do it. Voila. She does this with Ron in HBP too, the whole McLaggen incident. Didn't really think it through, just wanted to piss off Ron.

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

Great essay! I agree, and I've always thought the way Hermione neglected to tell Harry what exactly he was meeting her for on the day of his Big Date smacked of passive-aggressive sabotage. I like your point about Neville as well, since I really feel that Hermione has been doing about the same thing to Ron and Harry, but in more areas than simply the academic. In CoS, aside from a certain flying car incident, when the boy's lack Hermione's nagging supervision, they are remarkably level-headed. Harry and Ron handle their homework just fine without Hermione, and don't get into any more trouble than they would while she was around. Yet, when she is around, they default to being lazy trouble makers. They know they don't have to take responsibility for themselves when Hermione is around, although I think we see a lot of bristling from Harry even before HBP.

The interesting thing is that we see a bit of an opposite effect any time she sticks her foot in her mouth. She spends so much of her time focusing on what could go wrong with her plans, so that no matter what happens she'll turn out to be right; yet when something she didn't predict happens, she totally disavows the incident and pretend she never tried in the first place. That's how her relationship with Luna works. She's clearly trying to impress everyone in the cabin, but it back fires spectacularly. So what does she do? She pretends that she never wanted to be Luna's friend in the first place. Harry can do better, and so can she.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's a good point about her supervision--they *do* fall back on being lazy when they know she's going to take care of things. Not that I would blame her for their behavior. Another person would refuse to let her help or maybe even get angry at her trying to help. I do find it funny when it seems like she needs to feel like she's keeping things under control when she's not.

She spends so much of her time focusing on what could go wrong with her plans, so that no matter what happens she'll turn out to be right; yet when something she didn't predict happens, she totally disavows the incident and pretend she never tried in the first place.

That's a very good point and I think that's part of why people talk about wanting to see her brought down a peg. She's so programmed for success and we really don't see her dealing with failure. Sometimes she has to in the moment, like when the centaurs turn on them, but things work out and Hermione is seen as the one with the great plan that got rid of Umbridge. She can't do Divination and it becomes a stupid subject. The twins' inventions are "worthless" until she can get a handle on how they're doing them. Above I was talking to someone about the ability to fail and I do think it's an important thing. It's really important to learn to deal with failure realistically, accept that this is something you couldn't do, and move on. I don't think she's ever had to do that.

[angua9.livejournal.com]

This is a wonderful character essay, and I'm really happy I got to read it (and will put it in my memories, if that's okay).

I do find myself agreeing with midnitemaraud_r's comments as well, but I'm very impressed with your comments about Hermione's second thoughts about her own plans, and what that shows about her.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! And I agree, midnitemaraud_r did make good points as well!

[jandjsalmon.livejournal.com]

Wow! A ton of interesting ideas. I just copied one that I thought was... well... what I wanted to discuss further.

if they are self-sufficient, she'll be rejected.
Very smooth idea. I've always thought of Hr as just 'the smart one' while Harry is 'the brave one' and Ron is 'the loyal one', but the idea that Hr needs THEM... and wants them to NEED her is a very true point if you think about it.

Of course, like you said, it doesn't make her bad, it just is a part of her character. I notice when I read fanfic if the character of Hr is too *confindent* (for lack of a better word) it is really hard to believe. In canon she REALLY wants these guys to need her. She sees that as her edge, what's holding them to her. And definitly in HBP she's different (as many in fandom have lamented) because she wants to not only be needed but liked for herself (not just her brain). I don't really think Ron likes her for her brain (in fact, he might like her in spite of her brains). People complain that she was too needy in HBP, but now I can kinda see her as being kinda needy through the whole series, but just needy for different things. Hmmm.

As always, very insightful!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! And yeah, I know what you mean about making her *too* strong and confident. It really takes something away from the character--well, it's that cliche idea that flaws make the character more likeable, not less. She seems less like a friend and more like a computer when she's just always right and helping the boys because she chooses to and not because she needs something from them.

[psychic-serpent.livejournal.com]

Again, the point here isn't that Hermione set out to destroy H/C and did it. It's more that I think Hermione has a pattern of supporting and undermining in equal measure, and that this is part of an anxiety at keeping herself needed. It wasn't that she was destroying H/C, but that the more real H/C became, the more worrisome it would become, the more potentially out of her control.

There are a lot of reasons that I don't think that Hermione sabotaged H/C, and not just because I disagree with the idea above, that she has some need to be in control of H/C. I don't think she sabotaged it either consciously or subconsciously because the real nail in the coffin of H/C, when all is said and done, was Cho herself (by siding with Marietta and expecting Harry to look on her as a "lovely person" after the betrayal of the entire DA), whom Hermione is in no position to control. On top of that, while it was Hermione who put the spell on the DA sign-up sheet, so that Marietta got the acne on her face spelling "SNEAK," Hermione had no way of knowing that, out of all of the people in the DA, Cho's best friend would be the one to betray them all (JKR threw in more than a few red herring suspects, like Zacharias Smith and Michael Corner). She didn't know that ANYONE would betray them--the SNEAK spell was a precaution. And even if she DID have some sort of inkling that Marietta could be a traitor, she may or may not have known that Cho would be inclined to side with her.

There are just too many unknown variables here to claim that Hermione sabotaged H/C, regardless of her intentions--too many bits of luck (or bad luck). Regardless of what one ships that is the reason why it's silly to claim that Hermione sabotaged H/C--her actions led, successively, to H/C imploding, but one could also say that Harry's actions led to Cedric being killed, which opened up the possibility that he and Cho could get together. However, he couldn't have known that sharing the Tournament cup would have that result so implying that he offed Cedric in order to be with Cho is as random as saying that Hermione sabotaged H/C (no matter what you want to say her motivation was). The outcome, in both cases, is ironic, since Harry meant well and Hermione meant well.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to imply that Hermione was at all responsible for H/C breaking up--that was due to the two characters in the relationship. They broke up because they weren't right for each other. I don't think that H/C would have happened if not for Hermione--I think they would have broken up regardless--or that it was Hermione's fault that H/C broke up. But I don't see her actions on the day of their date as Hermione "meaning well" in the least to that relationship. It's just too hard for me to believe that Hermione suddenly lost all the very insight she'd shown since the beginning and accidentally chose to do things that led to the outcome we got on the date, even if the date was going badly anyway. This was the one area of H/C when I think Harry was actually clueless.

[aithopa.livejournal.com]

Oh, good stuff.

I think you're spot on in the bits about Neville (and your ideas fit in well with SPEW).

Harry wants to be right, Hermione needs to be...correct.

I didn't think Hermione was overly perfect in OotP, and I don't think she was terrible in HBP - maybe I have a large Hermione blindspot? She has these flaws and they manifest more strongly at some times than others, but I think they're consistent across the books.

I also like how this essay draws your attention to what the analysis means - that you can point out this rather negative characteristic of Hermione's without "attacking" the character...and the subtleties that can be found if you don't confine things to shipping.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I admit those things seems sometimes hard to do in fandom. Shipping sometimes gets used to explain everything and people get oversensitive about these kinds of flaws. Not that I'm holding myself above everyone else--everybody probably has problems with this sometimes, but I have a feeling you've never really clearly understood any character or person if there isn't something at least a little humiliating in there.;-)

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

Excellent post, as always.

While Hermione's need to be in control is (imo) pretty obvious, I'd never thought of her in terms of sabotaging her own and other's plans before, but I think you might be right on the money.

I don't know whether that will cause me to reevaluate my feelings on HBP Hermione. I'm one of the people who were really annoyed with her character in that book, and I still feel that if Hermione desperately wanted Ron (which excuse me, I'm still trying to wrap my brain around), she'd find a better, more underhanded way of achieving said goal.

But her curse to get Ron the Keeper position and simultaneous condemning of Harry for breaking the rules is of course typical Hermione. She has a rather interesting interpretation of rules, and when they should be ignored.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, sometimes I think we also have to remember that every character has to be incompetent enough that we can see what they're doing. Really, would somebody like Hermione be so obvious about her feelings? Probably not.