And now, a short poll

[sistermagpie]

HBP having been out for a while now, there are two widely-held fandom theories that I feel out of synch with, so whoever cares to, what are your thoughts? One of the thing's that ultimately frustrating about HBP for me is that there's *a lot* of times where we just don't know who knows how much of what when. It's easy to miss little bits of into that way--for instance, I've heard people suggest that DD doesn't know about Snape's UV, that Snape would never tell him, when that's one thing we do know that DD knows, because Harry overhears Snape and Draco talking about it (thus Draco also knows, which he might not have) and tells it to Dumbledore. Are we supposed to believe that any scene Harry witnessed he's allowed to tell his friends about was given to them in such detail it's like they were there?

[Poll #561852]



On question one, it never occurred to me Snape didn't know what he was agreeing to do until I found out other people thought he didn't know. For whatever reason *I* knew what he was supposed to do from the moment this mission was talked about, so when I was reading the chapter there was no suspense regarding what the mission was, and I probably just assumed if I knew it Snape must too. The vagueness of the language seemed to be more about not saying it for the reader. It seems very odd for Snape to agree to something if he doesn't know what it is, though I suppose he might think (if he were actually working for DD) that having him do it would mean DD would have more control over it, but it doesn't seem necessary.

There's no reason for him to take the vow to find out what the plan is, really. Narcissa starts talking about it herself and Snape stops her, so I think he could trick it out of her without agreeing to be an assassin. It wouldn't make him look guilty not to take the vow anyway--it's going against Voldemort's wishes. Also his hand twitches before Narcissa asks him to do the deed--it's when she's leading up to it: "And if it seems Draco will fail..." That's more dramatic if he knows what he's agreeing to...perhaps it's even a rare moment of Snape's real emotion coming through there (like that sudden movement in GoF when Harry's talking about the DEs, for instance). It also makes Snape's line about Voldemort (or Dumbledore) meaning for him to do it in the end, but wanting Draco to try first more dramatic. If he doesn't know what the task is, why does he think Voldemort wants him to do it in the end?

Once the school year starts Snape's not knowing what the task is becomes almost comical to me. He seems to know Draco was behind the necklace--hasn't he figured it out yet? Or after the mead? I thought he was questioning Draco not to find out what his task was but to find out exactly what he was doing to kill Dumbledore so he knows just what murder attempts he's planning (it'd be nice if he could prevent more Katie Bells). Also I think he doesn't know about the Vanishing Cabinets and maybe feels nervous because he knows things are going out of his control--Draco is doing something outside of his half-hearted attempts to kill DD. The other DEs at least seem to all know the score once they show up at Hogwarts, and Bellatrix knows early on. It doesn't really seem like that big of a secret in the DE camp.

For question two, my answer is no. The whole "has to see the best in people" seems like classic tell vs. show to me. In this book people keep telling us this is a weakness of DD's, but frankly I've never seen it. Dumbledore's mistakes never seem to come from his seeing the best in people. He does seem to underestimate them and their emotions, but I don't think that comes down to thinking they're more "good" than they are. If we assume he did think Snape could overcome his adolescent hatred of James to teach Harry Occlumency, for instance, then he underestimated Snape's hatred and overestimated his maturity, but I don't think he was thinking Snape was more good than he was, and would teach Harry well out of some positive emotion. Once faced with his failure, DD doesn't seem to see it in good/bad terms either. He makes a similar mistake thinking he can control Harry in OotP, and possibly Sirius too. DD was also the only teacher who wasn't fooled by Tom Riddle, which I believe he explains by saying he had "seen" the real Tom that first day, so Tom couldn't fool him. Frankly, he doesn't seem to have been shocked by the Dursley's behavior either.

To me, that's what DD is interested in. Not whether or not the person has this nebulous quality of "goodness." I mean, his explanations when people behave badly are a little too rational for just "oh, I guess they weren't as good as I thought." For instance, it's Harry who seems offended at DD's analysis of Sirius' actions with Kreacher, as if it takes away from Sirius being good and heroic and all that. I really just don't think seeing good in people is something DD really cares about in the long run. Sure he'd like people reach their full potential of goodness or whatever, but what matters to him is which way they'll bend in a strong wind and how that affects the plan, if that makes sense. How far can he control them and predict their actions? That seems to be what he's studying with Draco throughout the book, actually. Perhaps Snape and Harry feel the need to know exactly what Draco's up to, but DD seems to almost prefer to watch him act on his own so that he gets a handle on what his real priorities and abilities are (sorry, Katie and Ron!). Again, he underestimates him, but not in terms of how good or not he is. He actually seems pretty right on in terms of Draco's conscience. He got screwed overestimating Hogwarts' defenses, and his own level of control over the environment. It's not like he's shocked that Draco would consider bringing DEs into Hogwarts. He does think that bringing Fenrir there is not something he'd expect Draco would do, and there again he's right. He didn't mean to do that.

Whichever way Snape falls, I don't think DD will have made the mistake of seeing good in him that wasn't there. (Honestly, what good is there on display on any given day?) No, if he made a mistake about Snape I think it will be more like the mistakes he made with Harry and Sirius, or Snape previously. He'll still have a pretty good grasp of the person's character, but will have not foreseen their emotional reaction to something. With Snape it's probably a situation where he's got competing desires and the trick is figuring out which one was ultimately stronger. I think whatever his reason was for trusting Snape to begin with, it was plausible and took into account that the guy was already a murderer and a DE. And I suspect whichever way Snape went it was not such a surprise to DD that he didn't "get it" in those last moments, and could have probably explained it to Harry in a way that would make Harry furious because it didn't come with a pitchfork and a pointy tail.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

The only problem with your premise is, it presupposes that Draco's mission which Snape made the UV about, was to kill DD. What if Draco has another mission that isn't fully revealed yet, or perhaps just to get the DE's into Hogwarts. Maybe Draco saw an opportunity to kill DD and took it. Snape could very easily be acting on his own initiative as oppossed to under the influence of the UV on top of the tower.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ah! Point taken--if his mission is really something else, perhaps Snape even knows it and we don't.

[romeoambiences.livejournal.com]

If killing Dumbledore is only an opportunity not a directive, why don't one of the other DE's kill him when they reach the scene? Dumbledore stands before them, weak and unarmed, an irresistible target...imagine being able to claim to have defeated the Dark Lord's greatest enemy.
Based on what is said and how everyone behaves, it seems that the murder of DD is the mission.

[lilith-morgana.livejournal.com]

Oh, I can't resist the opportunity to talk about Snape! Even if I'm going on repeat these days.

It wouldn't make him look guilty not to take the vow anyway--it's going against Voldemort's wishes.

Exactly what I think. With Bella there, Snape could use Voldemort's authority as a way of playing the sisters until he knew the full story but I don't think he had to. Then again I also think that Dumbledore is fully aware of his own death before the actual plot in HBP takes place - I don't think the dead hand is meant to be taken too lightly in this context, especially not since it was caused by a Horcrux.

And like to think of the twitching as a rare emotional outburst as well, because it's just such a Snapeish thing to do. Playing the games, not counting the losses until something forces him to stop and think about what it really means, what it is that he will have to do. And because he is Severus Snape he can't walk away but has to pucker up and bite back the "oh for fuck's sake I don't want to do this OMG NOES!" Same with the suddent movement when Harry mentions Lucius in GoF - for some reason I think Snape thought the Malfoys were going to stay away this time, flee or whatever. If nothing else I think he wanted it that way for Draco's sake.

I don't necessarily think the Avada Kedavra part was perfectly planned, but I do believe it was there all along as an option - the plan B. Or C.

And Dumbledore, for all his massive faults, isn't that bad when it comes to judging a person's character. (He is crap at foreseeing emotional reactions, though. It took him five bloody books to realise that Snape and Harry CANNOT POSSIBLY interact as student-teacher. I don't even want to think about what he said in the past when Sirius almost killed Snape. "Oh, do smile Severus, at least you got to see a werewolf! Lemon drop?") If he's wrong about Snape, he will come off as the most idiotic person ever to have inhabited Hogwarts - and with Hagrid around that's pretty awful! If Snape is ESE then Dumbledore will not only have been too trusting with his precious second chances but also placed the safety and future of the wizarding world in the hands of a cold-blooded murderer. The HP verse simply cannot hold such a plot.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! Yes, there's mistakes and then there's...it's hard to even call ESE a mistake, because we've had 6 books where we've had no reason to believe it except for DD's word. That is, we have seen Snape do things like save Harry in PS/SS, but the whole question of why he's in the Order has always been a secret. How ludicrous if he's there because DD just wanted to give Snape a chance. It's not like DD hasn't seen betrayal in his life, after all. He thought Sirius betrayed them, then he found out Peter did (one wonders why he wasn't seeing all that good in Sirius when he was thrown into jail!).

I really hope we learn more about Snape and Lucius. There's been just enough hints there to suggest there is something to be learned that influences Snape's behavior. So many people of the previous generation are dead sometimes it seems entirely up to Snape to make the next generation go another way or not, you know? Did he feel strongly about Lucius? Has he transferred his hopes for Lucius onto Draco?

It's frustrating that I find it so hard to talk about Snape because the books' intentionally vague about him. I don't think we yet have all the information we need to really get exactly where he stands, and explain all those little twitches and incongruous facial expressions.:-)

[ex-ella-bane358.livejournal.com]

I screwed up my answer to number one; I read the question too fast. After, I rephrased it to read "Was Snape pretending to agree to kill Dumbledore when he took the vow?" I don't think Snape could pretend, because he isn't stupid. I firmly believe he and Dumbledore discussed the possibility that one day Snape might have to kill Dumbledore, so that a student (any student under Voldie's thrall -- not just Draco) wouldn't.

Snape has been a spy for so long that his thinking, while very sharp, is skewed to constantly imagine the worst case scenario, to look out for machinations behind any situation. I'm not saying he knew absolutely that Narissa would one day force his hand, but that, instead, he would be put in the position to kill Dumbledore someday.

As for question two, I don't think that is his greatest weakness. I'd need more time to figure out what I think his greatest weakness is. He may look for the good qualities in people that will help him reach his end goal. I thought about Neville in first year, how DD applauds the courage it takes to stand up to your friends, and if he saw a tool in Neville for future battles with DE's. I don't know.

[ex-ella-bane358.livejournal.com]

I read some of the above comments, and I have to add that I think Snape knew exactly what Narcissa was asking him to do, whether or not he actually knew the plan. He may have been 'playing' up to the sisters to get the truth of the plan out of them, if he really didn't know, but by the time she asked for the vow, I think he definitely knew what was being asked of him.

[niwatorimegami.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking that Snape and Regulus must have been close in the past. Harry goes on about Snape's nickname being The Half Blood Prince and how it matches with Lord Voldemort, but Regulus' name MEANS "Little King" or "Prince". I think that is a much likelier fit. Coupled with all the suspicion that R.A.B. is Regulus, perhaps Regulus' death was a factor in Snape choosing to betray the DEs.

And I agree with your assessment of Dumbledore. He is completely not the sort of man to be blinded to a persons' character by sentimentality. I think his speech at the end of OotP reveals quite a deal about the way his mind works.

[etrangere.livejournal.com]

I quite agree with that idea as well. It could be a good trigger for him to decide to quit the DE. If that was the case, I wonder how much Snape see of Regulus in Draco.

To answer sistermagpie's question, I don't think Snape was fully aware of what he was getting into when he accepted to do the UV. Mostly because his "oh, I just happen to be one of those Voldie told about the plan" was plain too easy and sounded too much like he was trying to get information out of the Black sisters. I suppose it's not impossible he did have an inkling, or used Legilimency onto Narcissa to know by the time he tied himself, though (however I hardly see Narcissa being a lesser Occlumens than her sister). But, well, he didn't need to know the details to know it was a bad idea. The scene had "Doom !" warped all around it (there's a reason it's my favourite of HBP). Those Blacks give me a big Atrides vibes ^^

[matitablu.livejournal.com]

He'll still have a pretty good grasp of the person's character, but will have not foreseen their emotional reaction to something.

Ditto. It's like with Voldemort - to a certain extent, we can agree with DD and say that his quest for immortality is pointless and against nature, since humanity=mortality (amongst the other things). But on the other hand, it seems to me that in DD's opinion everyone else should have his attitude towards death - seeing it as "the next great adventure" or something along those lines. It's like he assumes other people have, I don't say his moral standards, but his same self control. If I remember correctly, JKR said in an interview that Dumbledore has no equals - then, his biggest flaw is thinking he has. While most persons (see Harry, the resident hero of the series) have their good share of mediocrity to cope with.

Some brief thoughts on Snape - I always read the "twitch in his hand" bit as a sign of his knowledge about the Vow, and never considered a different option, to be honest :-) But whether he agreed with Dumbledore for killing him, is a whole other matter, and I'm still struggling with myself to understand which scenario I like best, and/or which is most likely to be canon. I currently tend to think that he never talked to Dumbledore about it, but Dumbledore knew - or figured it out - all the same. And on the tower, he was pleading for being killed - because he knew he was already dead, and he would have saved Snape's and Draco's lives at the same time. Shame that neither Snape nor anyone else knew Dumbledore knew - so Snape is now out of the Order's trust, and feels responsible for Dumbledore's death.

I don't know if this makes sense... Maybe tomorrow I will change my mind about that again ;-)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I like that idea, that DD thinking he has equals is a flaw. He does make mistakes more along those lines, I think. Like he expects people to stay within the boundaries that he would stay in. His age is a big factor too--not that older people don't feel passion, but he doesn't seem as subject to it as everyone else in this universe.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure quite what to make of Dumbledore, but my current opinion is this: JKR wants him to be Gandalf. She wants him to be a benign mentor who's occasionally flawed but basically good and right about most things. The character she ended up writing, though, is deeply morally ambiguous at best and downright immoral at worst, someone who falls prey to the same ends-over-means thinking that JKR denounces Barty Crouch Sr. and the Slyths for.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--yeah, big problem if he's supposed to be Gandalf for a lot of reasons. Not the least of which being that Gandalf dealt with adults and I don't think he really ever gets involved in the kinds of personal dramas DD does. The whole "epitome of goodness" thing is problematic for me, to say the least.

[khilari.livejournal.com]

I can never really decide about Dumbledore. I don't think he sees the best in everyone, but I think he can see people from they're own perspective.He understands why people do things and doesn't really want them to suffer. But everyone's expendable for a good enough cause, including him.

Dumbledore probably thought Sirius could kill James if he felt he had reason enough. Sirius had already nearly killed Snape, and he's from a family with a history of insanity. Maybe Dumbledore thought they Sirius and James had a quarrel and Sirius' revenge got out of hand.

On a different topic there was a discussion on this journal a while ago about Ravenclaw's crest being an eagle. The only connection I can find is Odin. He has ravens and can turn into eagle. He's the god of inspiration and wisdom, so that might add up to intellegence. He's also the god of death which is where ravens and eagles come in, since they both eat carrion. I doubt that's what JKR was thinking of, but I spent a lot of time thinking about it so I thought I'd post.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I just feel that "see the best in people" conjures up a very specific kind of person that isn't DD. He's not particularly inspiring, even, really. He's seen a lot in his life, and I think it's more that he's maybe just good at seeing possibilities in people.

OOh--thank you for that Ravenclaw information. That's really excellent to know!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Haha, your poll didn't give the answers I would've given, so I'm copy-pasting :>

Did Snape know he was agreeing to kill Dumbledore when he took his vow?
I don't think he knew he'd -have- to, as in, there was absolutely no way out, but he did know what he was promising to do. It seems like he took a gamble without knowing all the variables and knowing he couldn't necessarily tell Dumbledore all the variables, either. I also think he knew he'd miscalculated & he was mostly bullshitting with Narcissa & Bellatrix, but it was a grey-area sort of thing, I imagine, where he was just... doing the best he could, which isn't quite the same as 'pretending', I guess...? I dunno.

Is Dumbledore's great weakness that he "has to see the best in people?"
Haha, I think he's neither an old fool nor a manipulator :P I think he's kinda both...? Or maybe neither. It's odd... after HBP my take on Dumbledore shifted but still isn't concrete... but I think the fact that he sees the best in people is his strength in the Potterverse, whatever you might think of him in the 'real world' setting-- I don't think the 'real world' setting applies. He controls too many pieces, has too much power-- he can't be an old fool. But neither is he a manipulator, because while he manipulates, he does it because I think he truly sees what he says he sees, and merely fudges corners at times.

That is, he holds back but he doesn't lie (about the important things), I don't think. Man... most people just don't get Dumbledore, but then I guess you could say that about most HP characters except maybe Ron. Ron's a simple fellow... though a bunch of people misunderstand him, I dunno if it's the majority :>

Dumbledore's mistakes never seem to come from his seeing the best in people.

Haha, so basically I agree with you, it's just that you used strong phrasing I balked at, like 'bastard', and the judgment of his character implied, ahahah. Also:

but what matters to him is which way they'll bend in a strong wind and how that affects the plan, if that makes sense. How far can he control them and predict their actions?
I agree that he doesn't overestimate people's goodness/character and he underestimates the wildness of human emotion (and he realizes & respects its power probably -because- he can't predict it), but I do think you underestimate Dumbledore's emotionality & personality in this. You make him far too... not calculating, because clearly he's calculating, but too... entirely rational, I believe. I think there's lots of evidence for him being... y'know, eccentric, silly, affectionate, sentimental-- and I don't think that's "just an act" the way that Draco's behavior isn't "just an act", y'know? How we act shows something important about who we are.

So I think he understimates emotions but he also makes mistakes because of -his own- emotions and attachments, his hopes, also. He doesn't hope to the point of foolishness, but I think he hopes.

He'll still have a pretty good grasp of the person's character, but will have not foreseen their emotional reaction to something.

I agree with this, naturally. I think this is because it's impossible to foresee, and I also think Dumbledore realizes this. I think, also, that you need a bit of Dumbledore's hope and belief in mankind, perhaps, to 'get' this about him, or the type of personality he is. I dunno, just... benevolence is important here, I feel~:) He's deeply benevolent, to the point where he's almost -defined- by it, and I feel that's important and not just some surface interpretation that doesn't look analytically enough. I think it's just who he is. Not a fool, but a Fool, if that makes sense :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--I was trying to come up with something the extreme opposite of "old fool," as a DE would say. The "bastard" was optional.:-)

I don't know whether I really think of him as a Fool, but maybe that's the idea with all the Oddment tweak stuff and all that. But yeah, I definitely don't think this quality, whatever it is, is a weakness at all. In general it seems like that's just true in life. JKR obviously has a problem with people romanticizing people or not seeing them for what they really are (even if I think she kind of expects too much of young girls to be able to tell the difference between the guy who is good on the inside and the guy who isn't), so I doubt DD is doing that. Frankly, he wouldn't be so successful if he was like that. Not to mention, I don't think he'd have the people around him that he does. His past would be littered with his failures, imo, and I just don't think it is. Why, look at the way he deals with his students, after all. It's not like he's personally wanting to bond and encourage every single one of them. He wants all of them to be the best they can be, but he's not, like, a Pollyanna by any means.

[ljash.livejournal.com]

Huh. It never occurred to me that Snape didn't know Draco's mission from the start. I thought possibly that he stopped Narcissa from telling him as a ploy, but once it came to the vow I thought he had to know. I didn't know then--I thought at first it was "kill Harry" but then altered it to "kill Dumbledore" or possibly something else that I hadn't thought of. But I thought Snape had to know, simply because I didn't think he'd be dumb enough to make that vow if he didn't know what he was doing. Swearing on your life to do something just to find out what it is is kind of a desperate ploy and he seemed more together than that.

I didn't answer the poll because I couldn't really pick for Dumbledore. I agree that he isn't all about "seeing the best in people." I agree with all your statements on it. But I don't think he's necessarily then a manipulative old bastard. Sometimes I think this. But I think he does generally try to get people to be good. I think with Draco he wasn't just trying to study him and predict his actions--I think he cared what happened to Draco and didn't want to see him hurt himself. Though I also think caring about Draco was a low priority with him.

His main flaw is more underestimating people. Not just their emotional unpredictability, but sometimes their ability. He wants to know exactly what's going on and make things turn out how he likes, and sometimes he can do this. His flaw is thinking he can always do it.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It didn't occur to me either he didn't know. It's one of those times where if I weren't in fandom I'd not even have thought of it. But once somebody says it you realize it actually could be true. It just depended on what you thought when you read the scene the first time.

The "manipulative old bastard" was kind of tongue-in-cheek, looking for the opposite of "old fool." Mostly my thought is just like I said that this is *not* a guy who's sentimental and seeing things he wants to see, imo. Like, with Draco it's not that I don't think he cares about his actions--I think he does genuinely want him to make the right choice. But he seems to be realistic about knowing that he has to let Draco make it. It's not like he's walking around thinking that he just knows Draco doesn't really mean it when he tries to kill him. I think he understands all the wrong things Draco is thinking, and that's how it leads him to understand the right choice. Underestimating definitely seems be more of the issue.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Q:Did Snape know he was agreeing to kill Dumbledore when he took his vow?
A:No, he just pretended he did.

I think he was not quite bluffing, but more one-upping Bellatrix. He's in with LV, she's not in favor. Though Wormtail being there proves the lie, IMO. The only reason Narciss knows is because Draco's the one with the task; Bella knows because Narcissa knows. They've already gone behind Voldy's back by the time they reach Spinner's End. Bella mounts a verbal attack, partly to pin Snape, partly to smokescreen her own complicity in this 'conspiracy' against LV.

I think Snape knows something's up, and he wants to know what. IMO, he didn't know about the Death Eaters being brought in, there's every chance that he doesn't know about the death order, though he may suspect, and gets clues throughout the year. He also gets clues from Narcissa when she breaks down and says that LV means for Draco to die in his pursuit. If she's that sure, after having a DE husband for so long, it's got to be something big, maybe even as big as *gasp* killing Dumbledore.

And, when he agreed to take the vow, all she had asked so far was that he watch over Draco and help him if he needed it. No sweat. It's when she goes off freeform with a third condition that his hand twitches. Maybe a Snapeish OMG! moment.


Q:Is Dumbledore's great weakness that he "has to see the best in people?"
A:No, manipulative old bastard.

This is what Snape says to show derision toward Dumbledore when talking to Bellatrix.

I agree that "...what matters to him is which way they'll bend in a strong wind and how that affects the plan, if that makes sense." It's an old man's game, the sort of thing an aging old 156 year old might play after he's grown bored with normal, everyday life. He *can* see the big picture, and he sets pieces into place based on how he believes they'll be attacked in the overall scheme and how well they'll weather the attack. He's testing himself every time he makes a judgement. Like an adult watching a bunch of kids playing and having their petty arguments, or seeing teens angsting over their love lives. The adult knows things will work out somehow, things will get back to equillibrium, someday. 'This too shall pass'.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I definitely believe he didn't know about the Death Eaters being brought in--and that means there's any number of other things he couldn't know. He and Bella both seem to be very aware of this, that neither of them can really feel like they're in with Voldemort.

And yeah, I think that exact phrase "has to see the best in people" was definitely Snape playing to Bellatrix. Even if Snape is ESE, if he believes DD does that then he must mean it in a cynical way. Like, I can see him looking at the way DD treated James and resentfully or sarcastically describing it as DD seeing the best in him (making him Head Boy when to Snape he was a jerk), but I can't see him really thinking any random Slytherin or DE could just put one over on him.

[daylyn.livejournal.com]

Here's another theory.

I'm sure that Snape didn't know what Draco's mission was at the beginning of the visit. I'm also sure that he used Occulmency against Narcissa to determine what the mission was. He completely manipulated her into thinking about the mission by telling her not to defy Voldemort's wishes, and then used his skills to read her mind.

My conviction that Snape used Occulmency against Narcissa stems from his confrontation with Draco at Slughorn's party. There we learn that Snape can do Occulmency wordlessly (he tries to do it against Draco) and that Draco learned to shield himself from Bellatrix, not from his mother. If Narcissa had been an accomplished Occulmens, Snape would have thought that she had taught Draco. Instead, he knows (and Draco says nothing to counteract this theory) that Bellatrix is the teacher. This implies that Occulmency is not Narcissa's strong point.

Thus, I'm convinced that Snape learned about the plot to kill Dumbledore from Narcissa during the visit to Spinner's End. Then the question is what was Snape agreeing to when he agreed to the UV?

I don't think he actually expected to be asked to kill Dumbledore. If I recall correctly, wasn't he basically agreeing to keep an eye on Draco and to protect him? I think that Narcissa unexpectedly threw in the last bit about carrying out Draco's task. I think the hand twitch was an involuntary sign of both his surprise and his reluctance. He was between the proverbial rock and a hard place. If he didn't agree, Bellatrix would have reported his reluctance to Voldemort and he would have been killed. Of course agreeing also meant that he had to kill Dumbledore or die himself.

Poor Snape. I'm also convinced that Dumbledore knew of Draco/Snape's mission, and that they were arguing over it.

Of course, I'm a huge Snape fan who is convinced that he will be instrumental in helping to defeat Voldemort. Hope I'm right...

[glitterdemon.livejournal.com]

aha. of course. then bellatrix's shock makes more sense. seductivedark and yourself point out that narcissa doesn't include the third part of the vow (to finish draco's task if it seems draco will fail) until they're already in the midst of casting it. she displays shock by snape simply agree to protect him; why would that be so out of the ordinary? his relationship with lucius was clearly a close one, bella must know that, so it goes to follow that he would care about draco and his safety. if bella knows that he's an occlumens, she must have predicted that he would read narcissa's mind and know the full extent of his mission. at this point bella obviously thinks that snape is in dumbledore's pocket, so to agree to protect draco in such a mission would have been rather shocking to her. even without the third part of the vow, it would be a lot to ask of anyone loyal to dumbledore, because "protection" could very well come to mean "protection from dumbledore."

[q-spade.livejournal.com]

Did Snape know he was agreeing to kill Dumbledore when he took his vow?

I may be alone in thinking this, but the way I read Chapter 2 of HPB...it was Narcissa and Severus' intention to confuse & distract Bellatrix. Her presence was unwanted by both of them, yet ultimately useful (as the Bonder). She could hardly sell them out without getting herself in trouble, eh?

Despite that nervous twitch of his, once Severus and Narcissa lock eyes and the Vow is made, I think she tells him all he needs to know without speaking. Consider that a great deal is made of silent spells and wordless communication throughout HPB. If Narcissa loves her son, and wants to save his hide, and specifically goes to Severus because he's the only one in a position to save Draco...why the fuck wouldn't she tell Severus what's going on? That was the whole point of her visit.

So yes, I think he knew. And furthermore, I think he & Narcissa pulled a very fast one over on Bellatrix. My 2p/2¢, FWIW.

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

Um, you took my answer. Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this view.

*hugs*
*runs*

I agree with you in part

[desultory6.livejournal.com]

I'm on the fence on the issue of whether or not Snape knew. If he really is spying for Dumbledore it could be a risk that he would take. On the other hand if he didn't know everything doesn't add up. I picked "didn't know", but I'm iffy on that one.

I just can't understand how seeing the best in people could be considered a weakness. Well... as long as you realize that even good people do wrong and make mistakes. I've never in the course of the books seen enough evidence to merit the idea of Dumbledore being too trusting. He seems rather weighed down and slightly cynical about the war. He said that he had good reason to trust Snape and I believe him.

Re: I agree with you in part

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's just how I see it. "Seeing the good in people" is only bad when it's false, or when you're ignoring the other parts of them, but I don't think tht's what DD does. I agree he must have a good reason to trust Snape and he is a little cynical about what people are capable of.

[latxcvi.livejournal.com]

Once the school year starts Snape's not knowing what the task is becomes almost comical to me. He seems to know Draco was behind the necklace--hasn't he figured it out yet? Or after the mead? I thought he was questioning Draco not to find out what his task was but to find out exactly what he was doing to kill Dumbledore so he knows just what murder attempts he's planning (it'd be nice if he could prevent more Katie Bells).

See, I think the exchange is actually a lot more ambiguous than this, though. It's certainly capable of being read in more than one way:

"Listen to me," said Snape, his voice so low now that Harry had to push his ear very hard against the keyhole to hear. "I am trying to help you. I swore to your mother I would protect you. I made the Unbreakable Vow, Draco --"

"Looks like you'll have to break it, then, because I don't need your protection! It's my job, he gave it to me and I'm doing it, I've got a plan and it's going to work, it's just taking a bit longer than I thought it would!"

"What is your plan?"

"It's none of your business!"

"If you tell me what you are trying to do, I can assist you --" (HBP, US Ed., p. 323, emphasis mine)

Now, yes, on one hand, that can be read as Snape knows Draco's *assignment* is to kill Dumbledore and he just wants to know how Draco plans to go about accomplishing the task. But I do think that an equally reasonable interpretation of the exchange is that Snape's trying to find out what the task itself is, particularly when one couples his vagueness here with his vagueness back in Spinner's End.

I don't know. I waffle on what Snape knew and when he knew it. And I really do think that where one comes down in this *is*, to some degree, dependent on whether or not one thinks Snape is *truly* on Dumbledore's side vs. being Ever So Evil. It seems to me that those who think Snape IS Dumbledore's man are also those more likely to think he knew what Draco's task was when he took the Vow and the Vow was all Part of Some Plan of Dumbledore's.

I can't see someone as smart and cunning as Snape agreeing to an UV over something he doesn't know. By the same token, though, that conversation with Draco is *just* indirect enough, in terms of how Snape's asking his questions, that it doesn't make sense to me for him to be asking them if he knows what Draco's assignment is.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, totally. With me the thing was I just didn't think of it when I was reading the first time, but then once people start to lay it out for me I realize that yeah, it actually does work that he doesn't really work. And of course, it could be that Snape is confused about the Vanishing Cabinet and not the murder. He's just found Draco wandering around after curfew--is he going to the cabinet? Is Snape even more confused because he isn't sure how this ties into the murder plot? I've no idea.

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

I think that it's possible that Snape didn't know the intent of Draco's mission. He was caught in a classic double-agent bind. He had to agree with Narcissa's request or risk looking like a spy. Clearly Bellatrix was/remains suspicious of him. I suspect that Voldemort has placed Wormtail in Snape's house to spy on him, which means that Voldie is also suspicious. Snape couldn't refuse to make the UV. Whether he knew what Draco's mission was or not is irrelevant.

As for Dumbledore... his greatest weakness isn't that he sees the best in people, it's that he actually doesn't see people as emotional, complex, flawed creatures. He doesn't see people as *people* he sees only their actions, and the results of their actions. He never cared what motivated anyone, he only cared about what they did. This is exactly how JKR herself is presenting the events in the books: chilly, remote, lacking in any sort of true moral core or emotional warmth.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I get the feeling that Snape feels Voldemort might kind of feel Voldemort wants him to take the vow as well. I mean, I'm wary of theories that suggest that there's one puppet master who wanted whatever happened to happen, but the whole "he expects me to do it in the end" seems real to me. Even if Snape was referring to DD there he obviously means it to be Voldemort's wish to the Black sisters.

On Dumbledore: word.

[august-showers.livejournal.com]

I think I had the exact opposite reaction from yours during the second chapter. I had an inkling what Draco's mission was but I didn't think for a moment that Snape knew. In fact, I thought he behaved exactly the way a person does when he wants to find out something while not giving away the fact that he doesn't know it already. If that makes any sense.

If he doesn't know what the task is, why does he think Voldemort wants him to do it in the end?

Again, I thought that was just another example of him pretending to know what was going on in order to find out more about it. So the twitch of the hand after Narcissa's third question was less about knowing that he'd have to kill DD and more about not being quite sure what he was letting himself in for. I think Snape went into the UV thinking that it would involve only ensuring that Draco didn't get hurt. And he wouldn't mind that because we've seen signs of Snape caring about Draco's well-being.

The other possibility could be that the whole arrangement between DD and Snape happened before Spinner's End and he knew exactly what he was letting himself in for. But instinctively, I think that Snape wasn't aware of what was going on when "Cissy" and Bella visited him.

And I've always thought that Dumbledore was shown to be an extremely shrewd judge of character. Far from blindly seeing only the best in people, he's always seemed to see all the aspects of someone's personality and accepted them for it.

Oh, also, I'm friending you. I find your HP discussions fascinating. :)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

In fact, I thought he behaved exactly the way a person does when he wants to find out something while not giving away the fact that he doesn't know it already. If that makes any sense.

It does make sense--it was really just random that I was reading it the other way. Once people gave this other view I realized it works just as well. Like you said, the twitch of the hand could just as easily be Snape twitching because he doesn't know what he's going to be asked to do and has no idea if he can really do it.

Totally agree on DD.

Oh, also, I'm friending you. I find your HP discussions fascinating. :)

Thanks! And welcome!:-)

[sieda.livejournal.com]

I am not sure whether or not Snape knew what Draco's mission was, sometimes I think one, other times the other. I remember having a vague thought that Snape's hand twitch was due to Narcissa making him vow more than just watching out for Draco and helping him. However, thinking back on the scene I wonder if the UV has to have three smaller vows to tie together (why would snape be surprised?)...I am confused and probably need to do some re-reading.

I do not think that Dumbledore greatest weakness is seeing the best in people, underestimating and overestimating, maybe, but not seeing the best.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, that twitch of Snape's really works whether he knows about the vow or not, so I can't say for sure what way is right. Some things you can find out for sure upon re-reading, but this could really go either way. I hope we know for sure in Book VII, if the subject comes up.

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

You know, we assume here that Snape has an ordinary survival instinct, and that his calculations are based on normal considerations of self-interest. But he does, after all, have an impossible life -- full of rage and frustration, deeply lonely and unhappy. I think we should at least consider the possibility that he saw the Vow as an opportunity for honorable exit from the game. Because he did have the option to die instead. If that was the plan, he must have been furious if/when Dumbledore told him it would never do. This also puts another spin on the conversation Hagrid overhears, where Snape is "tired" of it all.

I'm not wedded to this, but I think it should be actively considered.

[romeoambiences.livejournal.com]

*nods* It is his motivation for taking the vow that intrigues me.
Does he merely want an honorable exit from the game? Do emotional ties to the Malfoys/Blacks factor in his decision?
Is there only one answer or many?

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Now, my take on the matter is that Dumbledore's greatest flaw is that he *refuses to take action* until it is virtually too late. He sits back, observes, analyses the events and is secure in his understanding of what is going on, but he does bugger-all about dealing with it. This is further compounded by a determination to catch wrongdoers in the act before witnesses. I don't think we've ever seen him take action unless he had someone in tow to back up his version of events. The only action we have ever *seen* him take on the grounds of "suspicion" only was to stake-out the room where the Mirror of Erised was set up in order to give Harry the information he would need in order to be able to retrieve the Stone after the shouting was over. And since he set up that whole little demonstration for exactly that purpose it hardly counts.

Like many people he expects the small problems to solve themselves, and when he miscalculates he has to scramble to play catch-up. Tom Riddle was one of his worst miscalculations.

Dumbledore has seen a lot of little bullies over a long career as a schoolteacher. He takes bullies in stride, and he knows that many if not most of them outgrow it ( James, Sirius). Or if they don't, they manage to carve lives out for themselves where bullying is not the central motivation (Fred & George Weasley). It's all a matter of degree. Snape came to school with an impressive collection of homemade hexes and no social skills, and ended up being picked on. He could have as easily been the biggest bully on the playground.

Yes, he saw all the warning signs with Tom. But the fact is that the version he gives us was the version he pieced together with 20/20 hindsight long after the event. It was only when old Hepzibah Smith was poisoned by her devoted House Elf, and key items from her extensive collection were found to be missing, that he discovered that Tom was a problem that would not solve itself. He spent *at least* the next decade scrambling to pick up the backtrail.

If he even moved that quickly. As a member of the Wizengamot, (which I'm convinced he was, even though he may not have been the Chief Warlock at that point) his retrieving of Hokey's memory finally got him off his fat apathy and into a game of catch-up. Someone, probably Slughorn, had no doubt noted that Tom had been sporting the Peveril ring while still at Hogwarts, which sent Albus to Morfin Gaunt in Azkaban, which sent him to Bob Ogden, which sent him to Caratacus Burke. (Note: we didn't see all of Burke's testimony, and given that it was taken AFTER his young employee "dropped off the face of the earth" along with an artifact of some significance that had passed through Burke's hands I really hope that we will.) I don't know how dilatory Albus's progress in this chain of testimony goes since, if he had all this info by the time Tom resurfaced, it is a wonder why he did not confromt him with at least some of it.

Are we really *sure* he was a Gryffindor? There are Ravenclaw failures. The one thing Albus is *not* prone to is Gryffindor-style, rash, unconsidered action. He is just as much of an "armchair expert" as his friend Slughorn.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

As for Snape: I think that from the day Voldemort sent him to spy on Dumbledore inside the school he knew that the day would come that Voldemort would want Dumbledcore permanently removed from his path. And he and Albus have discussed this long ago. For that matter, there are screwy details over the way that AK behaved that has any number of people convinced that Dumbledore isn't even dead. I'm not one of them, but I can see a scenario which could cover it.

That being said, I think Snape knew that Draco had been given the mission, probably as the price for initiation into the DEs. I am not convinced that he is officially one of them yet. (I think there was more riding on Dumbledore's 11th hour offer of mercy than just keeping the kid from damaging his soul with an AK.) But I don't think that Snape knew anything more than the basic objective of "kill Dumbledore". That leaves a lot of details out. I don't think that Snape knew anything about Draco's intention to bring in a backup team.

I like the idea of Snape and Narcissia communicating by mental image under Bellatrix's nose. And, for that matter, Snape and Dumbledore may have briefly done the same on top of the tower.

As for Snape's loyalties; I find that the river in Egypt is looking rather crowded and pedestrian these days and have just about signed up for a tour of the Martian canals, instead. Because the ground has abruptly opened in front of my feet and revealed a maybe-clue that may turn out to be just as much of an optical illusion as they seem to be. I've rolled it into the essay entitled The Child Foretold over on Red Hen.

http://www.redhen-publications.com/Foretold.html

I've not yet completely committed to it yet, since unlike most of Rowling's clues, it only points in ONE direction, which makes me suspicious. But if it's really there, and really a clue, I think we can expect another major "Bang" related to Severus Snape in book 7.

And another reason for him to hate Harry. Jealousy. Pure and simple.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

I love Red Hen.

The link didn't work. Got to it through the front door instead. Link: http://www.redhen-publications.com/ChildForetold.html

Thx for the heads-up!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

I simply cannot choose either answer for your first question because, like you, I assumed Snape must have been able to figure the task out since it wasn't too hard to (clues: it was something Voldemort had not been able to do, something that could hypothetically be carried out by a student trapped in Hogwarts, something Voldemort would expect Snape to do in the end anyway), and even if he did not, what the hell was he to gain from making an unbreakable vow over an unknown task? The UV was simply too (unnecessarily) risky a promise to make, plus why worry about Bellatrix, who had come to distrust Snape a bit less (albeit reluctantly), and would hurt Narcissa much more than Snape by telling Voldemort about the night's event? However, since I am of the opinion that Snape is truly on Dumbledore's side, he must somehow have had a valid reason to do the vow, thus it's quite possible he truly did not know about the task, and that he considered it important for Bellatrix to cease having any doubt in him @_@? At least these would seem to be the only logical explanations behind his action, maybe he did think that while the task involved causing detriment to Hogwarts (breaking its defense, perhaps), he did not think it would involve killing someone.

As for Dumbledore's greatest flaws, I agree that it would be his underestimating the strength of people's emotions, and the negative consequences that might result from said emotions.

ps. I would *love* it if Snape's change of heart had something to do with Regulus, so much a better story than one about a villain's unrequisted love for a good woman at any rate!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

ps. I would *love* it if Snape's change of heart had something to do with Regulus, so much a better story than one about a villain's unrequisted love for a good woman at any rate!

OH god yes. Or at least if it's got something to do with Lily it must be philosophical and about himself and not just loving this person. I admit that now when I read the Pensieve scene, the fact that Lily blinks before she calls him Snivellus makes me think that yes, the two of them used to be friendly. This at least redeems Lily in that scene to me a bit, actually, because her calling him Snivellus is her way of saying fine, their friendship is over if they're going to call each other the names other people do, like Mudblood.

But still, it can't just be that Lily is so great and he wuvs her. That would suck.

I do think Snape had some valid reason for taking the vow. Even if he were really a DE, it seems like a risky thing to do. I have a hard time coming up with any theories about this because it seems like the information we need has been deliberately witheld.

[edido.livejournal.com]

"I really just don't think seeing good in people is something DD really cares about in the long run. Sure he'd like people reach their full potential of goodness or whatever, but what matters to him is which way they'll bend in a strong wind and how that affects the plan, if that makes sense. How far can he control them and predict their actions?"

It seems to me that Dumbledore is simply a complete moral relativist. And this is, at once, his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. He does not judge or even think about people in those terms. No weighing of souls here. His equation for people is their motivations/intentions balanced against what they are capable of. Ideals v. Actions. He won't indict people for their ideals if their actions are fairly harmless, and to more an extent than most would go, vice versa.

It is his great strength because he sees people and events very clearly; and yes, I would include their emotions. It allows him to be very tolerant and to not judge until events have culminated. And when you are 150 years old, you realize how long events take to culminate. He has a great love of life and humanity because he can accept the flaws. He can overlook crimes enough to still have pity for the perpetrator. It is his great weakness because he is a leader, an educator and an elder in a WW which very much relies upon him; and leaders are expected to be fair. Moral relativism is highly suspect to most because the world seems very chaotic without a clear sense of right and wrong and a structure for what constitutes justice. Most view it as amoral or apathetic, but it is neither.

I don't think DD is quite as manipulative as most think. He knows that situations have a tendency to work themselves out. He knows the futility of trying to actively exert control on others. He doesn't take away their choices. Instead he subtly encourages/thwarts when necessary, but he ultimately allows people to make their own mistakes or successes. I think that he has no real expectations of people, but does use the respect he's gained as an impetus for them to live up to the faith he places in them. And he does this when people are as yet untested, then waits to see if they do. This is not the same as trusting "the good" in people.

I can hear the howls already on that last paragraph. *laughs nervously* But there are many examples in the books that bear me out on this point, I think. Because this post is so long I'll just mention that all the times he is undermined, he does not actively manipulate events (or the players); he just lets them hang by their own rope. Or how he deals with Draco at the end of HBP.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I don't think DD is quite as manipulative as most think. He knows that situations have a tendency to work themselves out. He knows the futility of trying to actively exert control on others. He doesn't take away their choices. Instead he subtly encourages/thwarts when necessary, but he ultimately allows people to make their own mistakes or successes. I think that he has no real expectations of people, but does use the respect he's gained as an impetus for them to live up to the faith he places in them. And he does this when people are as yet untested, then waits to see if they do. This is not the same as trusting "the good" in people.

I really agree with the way you've put it in this paragraph. Even to the point of his not being that manipulative because, as I think others in the thread have noted, a manipulative person is almost more intense or hands-on. I don't see Dumbledore relying enough on his theories coming true to be what would be described as a manipulative person. Which doesn't mean he isn't making plans based on what he sees in people and always looking over the chessboard; he can and he is. It's just not close manipulation--which is maybe why he can honest respond to serious mistakes or tragedies with a "that's the way the cookie crumbles" attitude.

[guza.livejournal.com]

Sorry about this lame comment (I get too shy to post sometimes), but may I friend you?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Sure--welcome!:-D

And also ICON LOVE!!! You've got Prince John!