Happy birthday [livejournal.com profile] xnera!

I realized I forgot to mention I saw Corpse Bride, which I enjoyed. Even more I enjoyed the Q&A with Tim Burton after the movie. I've heard he's very shy about speaking in front of people, but he was relaxed and funny and interesting. Afterwards I also met a guy named Shade who had appeared on that Bravo's 100 Scariest Horror Movies which I watched rather avidly, and we liked a lot of the same movies.:-)

Speaking of horror movies--well, really not but I'm attempting a transition here--I've been thinking about those Vampire and Werewolf theories that so persistently float around HP fandom and thinking about a way

The two theories I'm thinking about are the one where Snape is a Vampire and the one where Draco is a werewolf. I don't think there's any evidence in canon that either of these things is true as of HBP, and JKR has dismissed the one about Snape. So why do people (John Granger, for instance) continue to hold on to them? Well, leaving aside the fandom-psychology reasons, there are interesting things about them, things that maybe get lost when we focus too much on them being literally true. It's interesting, for instance, that Snape is the vampire and Draco is the werewolf, with very few suggestions that we switch the two. After all, Draco's name is a lot like Dracula. He's described as being pale and bloodless, as opposed to sallow, and vampires are usually described as the former, not the latter. He's a sensual character, leaning against things, drawling, very physical in a sensual way. One person I spoke with actually always pictured him with black hair "like Dracula" before PoA revealed he was blond. Meanwhile Snape often foams a bit at the mouth, he has fits of rage and smashes things. He's been more physical in a violent way. Yet Draco's rarely thought to be a vampire and Snape is rarely thought to be a werewolf.

The main reason Snape is thought of as a vampire is that he's so often described as bat-like. I don't think that's JKR hinting he's a vampire so much as hitting on a metaphor that sounds right for her for the same reason Vampire sounds right for fandom. Snape is vampire-like in more interesting ways than the literal. His dealings with Harry do often have a hint of the vampire. The dark eyes that are like tunnels, the way he leans over him in his black cape, the seductive way he speaks about Potions and DADA, the way he speaks silkily. He even seduces Harry via his textbook in HBP. Hermione recognizes the same attraction to the Dark Arts in the way he and Harry speak of them. They speak of the Dark Arts as something sophisticated, not brutal.

Snape is, as far as I can see, the only Death Eater to have eaten death and come back to the living--he's undead in a very real way. Unlike some other would-be DEs, Snape also seems to have thrived on the Dark Arts. He's not an emotionally healthy person by any means, but he doesn't seem to suffer from the kind of madness Bellatrix does, or be as beaten as Peter is. Voldemort appears to hold him in high regard, even if he doesn't completely trust him. We're told he came to school knowing all sorts of Dark Arts. He was possibly shunned by students who pegged him as "dark" on sight. The Order has always considered him "the other" and only trusted him because DD vouched for him. I don't think fans are correct when they sometimes assume Snape's time with the DEs wasn't quite so bad, that he didn't kill or engage in evil acts but just researched Potions. He seems to have been a real DE, and possibly not all that haunted by his deeds. He hates being called a coward, but I don't think he'd mind being called a killer.

In a way, Snape has always been living on borrowed time and between two worlds. Whichever side he is really on, he's leeching off one of them. Both sides think on some level that Snape should be dead--he sold his soul to Voldemort, after all. JKR says DD didn't want Snape to teach DADA because he'd be tempted by the Dark Arts, and it does seem like possibly Snape isn't so much tempted by them as something exotic but almost that he just sees them as natural. Harry is freaked out by Sectumsempra because the HBP seemed like a normal guy, offering fun hexes and good Potions advice, but perhaps to Snape it's just that there's no difference. He doesn't cross a line in developing Sectumsempra; he simply approaches hurting his enemies with the same efficiency as he approaches Potions.

So perhaps what's more interesting about Snape as a vampire isn't that he literally is one, but that his relationship to wizards is much like a vampire's to humans. Lines that other wizards might suffer for crossing simply don't have that much of a bad effect on Snape.

Draco as a werewolf is another theory that doesn't hold up at all factually. The inspiration for it apparently comes from the fact that Harry thinks Draco's arm is sensitive in HBP in the robe shop, and that he shows something to Mr. Borgin that is threatening and that he warns Borgin not to tell anyone about. Of course, there's neither of these things have to have anything to do with werewolves. Perhaps he did just get stuck by a pin like he said he did, and he could have shown Borgin anything. He's thought of as a werewolf because, just as Snape is sometimes connected with bats in canon, Draco has been connected with werewolves. He expresses fear of them in PS/SS and, more importantly, he threatens Borgin with Fenrir Greyback and later is horrified to have brought him into the school. The only other person Fenrir is connected to is Lupin, whom he bit and with whom he is currently living.

Unfortunately, all the "proof" that Draco is a werewolf doesn't hold up. He has several classes with Harry, who is watching him closely, and we never hear of him missing classes each month. Everything about Draco's behavior is explained through the cabinet/assassination attempt (those explanations are completely dismissed and ignored to get the werewolf stuff in there). Theorists also claim that Draco's not being on the map is proof that he's turned into a wolf, despite the fact that other transformed people show up as themselves (Peter as a rat, Crabbe and Goyle as girls). So I think it's safe to say that Draco is not an actual werewolf in canon.

So is there a connection? I think there is. Draco's one line about being afraid of werewolves might not mean much (werewolves are mentioned throughout the first few books without any reference to Draco), but there is that Greyback connection in HBP and I suspect fandom's eagerness to jump to this connection is maybe not far off from whatever led the author to connect the two. It just seems like Draco is more sensitive and frightened of werewolves than other kids. Maybe it's fanon, but it doesn't seem to come from fanfic.

I'm going to talk about vampires and werewolves here, though I realize that they're often described differently depending on the story. I'm referring here mostly to what I think are the most popular and familiar associations with them, and won't be surprised if people offer other examples that contradict them. Hopefully if someone does that it will make the comparisons in canon more interesting, though.

Vampires and werewolves are both creatures who infect humans and turn them into monsters. But there's interesting differences in the way their bites are perceived. Vampire bites are often described as pleasant, orgasmic even. Being a vampire, in popular Western culture, is not such a bad thing. It's associated with eternal life (like Death Eaters), beauty and strength. Vampires are not usually as associated with pining over being human, since if they were human they would be dead. They might long for the sun, the taste of food, sex, but they don't usually want to be human as long as they are okay with their taste for blood. They can't taste these things, while werewolves almost taste them more vividly than others. (While I disagree with claims that Draco begins to look ill "like Lupin" in HBP, I do think there's a connection in the fact that Draco's his savagery makes him look ill like Lupin, as opposed to beastly like Greyback.)

Werewolves, by contrast, are hunted animals. Popular culture often describes them as victims, good men who fight and fear their transformations and are horrified by what they do. They do not usually intentionally turn into monsters. Their transformations are thrust upon them, sometimes at bad moments, and they're often described as painful. Lupin belongs more to that tradition, while Fenrir is more the type of werewolf who revels in being an animal. Still, Fenrir is an animal--all humans seem to find him repulsive, including Draco Malfoy, a boy who in canon is described as being pretty fastidious. A person who enjoys being a werewolf is a person who embraces being an animal with all the primitive savagery that implies. Iow, we're not just talking about killing here, we're also talking about all those embarrassing things that animals do. He's not fit for human society.

I think that's the reason Draco is just more compelling in connection with werewolves, as Snape is in connection to vampires. These creatures more accurately seem to describe their relationship to the Dark Arts and evil. Draco may be fascinated by it, but when faced with it he finds it savage and repulsive. He doesn't have the killer instinct--if he did kill, it would be more like the human turning into an animal. He isn't quite Lupin, but he's not Fenrir either. Snape, otoh, appears more able to kill while still retaining his human form. I'm not explaining it well...what I mean is, there's no split for Snape the way there seems to be with Draco. There's no horror of the beast that kills--it isn't a beast, really. He does what he has to do, and the death is clean and face-to-face. By contrast, Draco's instinctive method for killing is poison-one that puts a distance between himself and the act. He's trying to retain his humanity, but even he doesn't seem to think he can do that and kill. DD appeals to exactly that in their final scene.
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ext_2233: Writing MamaDeb (Default)

From: [identity profile] mamadeb.livejournal.com


I've never seen the Draco-as-werewolf theory before. I've seen Snape-as-vampire, of course - I've even read fanfic with that as a theme. That comes not only from all the things you said above, but because right after Snape assigned "werewolves" to the Gryffindor third years, Lupin assigned "vampires" and it does seem rather quid pro quo.




ext_6866: (100% Ravenclaw)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I just started seeing it in a few places and it surprised me because, well, why would he be? But snape as vampire is more widespread. I forgot about that assigning of werewolves and vampires but that's definitely part of it.

From: [identity profile] arclevel.livejournal.com


The vampire assignment was several months later, not right after. It also seems pretty firmly in line with Lupin's curriculum for the year of studying the range of dark creatures (except, quite possibly, werewolves).

I've read a few good vampire!Snape fics, but I never really bought the argument for it being true.

From: [identity profile] ptyx.livejournal.com


Your description of Snape is beautiful, pure poetry, but no, I don't think he has ever been a killer. This wouldn't fit in JKR's Calvinistic approach. Unless he turns out to be ESE, but if this is the case, I give up.
ext_6866: (Maybe I'm wrong.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I can't imagine Snape as simply ESE it just...doesn't fit with all that's going on, imo. And you're right--I don't want to start assigning murders to him when there's not a single person that we know of that he'd killed before Dumbledore. I suspect if there was someone he'd killed personally we'd know about it. It's a big deal in this universe.

He has killed DD, though I think we don't know the whole story there. He was able to do it, but I think he had a reason to do so that will be important.

From: [identity profile] khilari.livejournal.com


You've hit it.

Werewolves are just more coflicted because they do retain more of their humanity. Also werewolves have no control over who they attack whereas vampires make a decision. This could tie in with how powerless Draco seemed. Snape may not have any good choices sometimes, but he does always choose.

On a tangent, the Fenrir in the myth was taken back to Asgard by Odin who hoped to raise him as a warrior. He was brought up as a person but attempts to instill any values in him failed as he grew to be a vicious monster who had to be chained. Despite being a somewhat overobvious pun the name Fenrir does suit the werewolf since he may not have chosen to be bitten, but he chose to be a monster. You probably knew all that, but I thought it was interesting.
ext_6866: (Boo.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


This could tie in with how powerless Draco seemed. Snape may not have any good choices sometimes, but he does always choose.

Yes, he even puts it in terms of his not having a choice, having no options. And even Fenrir who claims to embrace his nature, can't really choose who he's going to bite in werewolf form. He just places himself in a place where he's more likely to run into his victim. He's fooling himself into thinking he has more control than he does have, and there's also that effect of its making him look more animal-like when he's not transformed.

Despite being a somewhat overobvious pun the name Fenrir does suit the werewolf since he may not have chosen to be bitten, but he chose to be a monster. You probably knew all that, but I thought it was interesting.

I did not know all that! I knew a bit of the mythology but didn't know that bit about his failing to not be a monster. It may wind up having even more resonance when it comes to the DEs and Voldemort.
althea_valara: Photo of my cat sniffing a vase of roses  (TIN ROOF!!! RUSTED!!!)

From: [personal profile] althea_valara


Thanks for the birthday wishes! :D

I'm raising my eyebrow at the theory that Draco could be a werewolf. I hadn't come across that, and it seems non-sensical to me. Snape as a vampire makes a bit more sense to me, but I don't honestly think he is.

And I'm foggy from sugar right now so I don't have anything else to say at the moment. Interesting read, though!
ext_6866: (Yum!)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Hope you're having a great day! I just ate a pack of Skittles, so I'm there with you on the sugar high.:-D


From: [identity profile] niwatorimegami.livejournal.com


I'd heard both theories, but I'd never thought of them in a metaphorical context before. I think your analogies really ring true, and also believe that Snape has killed and done horrible things as a DE before. He has that quality to him, where if the Dark Arts are a drug, he's a user that has tried to quit, but is still tempted by all that it offers him. For Snape it's always been about power; the power to have vengeance against his childhood tormentors, the power to rise above the sick qualities of his home life, and the power to claim an exalted position in the Wizarding World.

I think, however, that Draco is only horrified by his own actions in HBP. He never has any problems with becoming animalistically cruel towards Harry, and even when he breaks Harry's nose he shows no remorse. But I suppose that's because he's largely been unaccountable for his own actions. He's hidden behind one reason or another to justify his cruel acts if necessary, and HBP is the first place where he finds himself being judged on a grand scale, by both Voldemort and Dumbledore. I suppose...he was more like a werewolf before in that he was a puppet to his heritage and could use it to take the blame, but Dumbledore offered him the choice of not being the monster he thought he was destined to be.
ext_6866: (Good point.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Yeah, I think you're definitely right in that hey, Draco has acted repulsively his whole life here. He may just have not dealt with it realistically, like he could justify it or pretend he was cool or whatever. It would be great if his seeing the truth in HBP would lead him to be more honest in the future, though we can't be sure about that. Like when DD says to him that it does matter if he uses the word Mudblood even if he's about to commit murder..obviously he's making a connection between ugliness on a small scale and a big scale.

I suppose...he was more like a werewolf before in that he was a puppet to his heritage and could use it to take the blame, but Dumbledore offered him the choice of not being the monster he thought he was destined to be.

Ooh! Well said--it reminds me of the "Bad Faith" essays on hp_essys, which I think are very accurate.

For Snape it's always been about power; the power to have vengeance against his childhood tormentors, the power to rise above the sick qualities of his home life, and the power to claim an exalted position in the Wizarding World.

Yeah, I think ultimately we'll be able to look back and have a much clearer idea what was going on with Snape in any given scene, and this will play a big part in it.
ext_6725: (PredatorLoverVampWomanHealer)

From: [identity profile] featherxquill.livejournal.com


Interesting, the spliit face you mentioned. It brings up the whole notion of the divided soul, which is something I've tried to explore with my fandom OC, who is a vampire.

The way I see vampires, they are a fusion - the human immortal soul and the body made flesh. Body and mind are so completely inseperable that they must feed of other things to live. It is an interesting comparison with Snape, because if body and mind are fused together then so too are the good and evil sides of the soul (as explored in stories like Jekyll and Hyde), and both must war together for dominance. Snape-vampire is interestign as a metaphor, for these two sides of a personality existing inseperably inside the one being, and him living out two seperate lives in order to experience both of them.

The werewolf is more a more traditional depiction of the divided soul. There are actually two sepearte physical forms, one that expresses all that is base and animal in a human without conscious, and one that is none of those things. Lupin is the empitome of this - mild mannered and level headed, because he does not need to show any anger or agression - he is forced to do that by his animal form once a month. He is Jekyll at the beginning of the story. Fenrir is the Jekyll at the end - the one who has found that it is impossible to keep apart both sides of yourself indefinitely, that eventually they begin to assimilate back into the single being. I'm not suggesting that Lupin will end up like Fenrir, because they're totally different people and this is just a comparison, but it does bring up interesting ideas. Draco-werewolf as a metaphor is similar to Snape - the Draco we see in HBP is, in a way, devided completely. He is still sometimes the Draco he has always been, but other times he has transformed himself into a beast to do what he has to do. I think he's in the middle part of the Jekyll/Hyde story - the point at which he realises that he an't split his conscious off completely.
ext_6866: (Boo.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I love your descriptions here--I can't think of anything to add! Except maybe the fact that Lupin is the werewolf we know about taking the Wolfsbane Potion (made for him by Snape, interestingly enough), which turns him into a docile wolf. So while Fenrir's human self starts to be more animal-like, Lupin's wolf self becomes more human through the Wolfsbane--and also through his friendship with the Marauders in their animagus forms.

From: [identity profile] seductivedark.livejournal.com


The way I see vampires, they are a fusion - the human immortal soul and the body made flesh.

And when the vampire and werewolf stories, and Frankenstein, were first popular as opposed to being actual legend, the body was considered base while the soul was exalted. People were supposed to turn from their baser instincts, forsake the body, and that has been that way off and on for... well, a long time. Self-flagilation by Fr. Serra for instance, back in the 1700s, the hermits of pre-New Testament times, living in the wilderness and forsaking creature comforts, and so on. Sex was for the dark, and is intensely physical. Something not to admit to, something to shun in the light of day.

Enter the vampire. A very sexy character in Victorian times. He enters women's bedrooms and ravishes them. He penetrates their skin with his fangs. He deprives them of their blood, their will, and their lives. He, at least Dracula, is aristocratic, charming, rich, attractive, magnetic, yet he embodies the basest sins of the flesh. And when he is killed, his body crumbles into dust - ashes to ashes, dust to dust, the righteous vengeance against fleshly desires and deeds. The body must be forsaken for the good of the soul and spirit. It's a very moralistic construct.

The werewolf is the body betraying the soul of the sensitive man. An addict, perhaps, or someone ravaged by illness. Demon-possessed at the full moon, the Creature cannot face the light of day. So it comes in the night, and forces its victim to perform dark acts in the dark of night. He has no choice. He is as much a victim of the werewolf as the people he slaughters. Helpless, as Man is helpless against the Dark One. Another moral lesson.

People now tend to like vampires, unless they're made to be OTT, like the ones in Buffy. Who wouldn't want to live forever? The vampire is seductive from concept to 'reality'. And with moral ambiguity more common now, vampires are thought of in a different way.

Loved the Jekyll and Hyde reference. Though Jekyll at first had a choice. He was seduced by his body/baser instincts. I forget, didn't he justify it somehow in the beginning? I think in HBP, Snape comes off more like the end of J&H than Greyback, but that's just me. I haven't paid much attention to the good doctor and his alter ego for a long time now.
ext_6866: (Boo.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Ha ha! I loved this. What I found was kind of difficult in talking about this was just what you mentioned, the way our view of these creatures changes over time. There's even some modern vampire tales that make the werewolves more like a vampire in terms of being more attractive. But I to me the beast betraying the sensitive soul is much more at the heart of a werewolf. Lupin just so seems to personify that. And in his own way so does Draco. He's not the gentle, good man that Lupin is, but his being a child, one who is "pure"(blooded) etc...as awful as he is when you compare him to a transformed werewolf he's pretty puny.

I wonder if that also reflects the different ways fandom tends to view these characters. They seem to like each other and are always presented as allies but there are a lot of people, often Snape fans, who are sort of offended by the idea that Snape would be seen as anything like Draco, or liking him. Suddenly I'm picturing (perhaps unfairly) a lot of vampire fans being too cool for werewolves.;-)

From: [identity profile] biichan.livejournal.com


Suddenly I'm picturing (perhaps unfairly) a lot of vampire fans being too cool for werewolves.;-)

Ever take a look at World of Darkness? Vampires oppressing werewolves is pretty much canon.

From: [identity profile] noxasclepia.livejournal.com


Vampires oppressing werewolves is pretty much canon.

The movie 'Underworld' has the same plotline. :)

From: [identity profile] seductivedark.livejournal.com


There's even some modern vampire tales that make the werewolves more like a vampire in terms of being more attractive. *(snip)* Suddenly I'm picturing (perhaps unfairly) a lot of vampire fans being too cool for werewolves.;-)

I think another difference between them, besides their inner demons, is that vampires are portrayed as smooth-talking hoity-toits, while werewolves are most definitely working class. I suppose we could get into the whole class issue with these characters, too, even wonder if that might not be one of the reasons we had so many werewolf and vampire films during the first part of the 20th century, when so much social upheaval was going on. You might have terror, dislike, or the desire to kill when confronted by a vampire, but a werewolf is always terror on the full moon, sympathy at other times. Lon Chaney jr.'s portrayal in particular really tore at the heartstrings. He had a wonderfully tragic expression. By contrast, Bella Lugosi's face at the end showed clearly the ugliness of his true nature. And Nosferatu was just plain creepy.

Yup, too cool for werewolves. Too... Pureblood?
ext_6866: (Me and my boyfriend.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Yeah--Lon Chaney Jr. is exactly who I was thinking about, whereas vampires always have that super-smooth on the outside thing. It seemed sort of what a lot of people thought Draco was like--super smooth and very evil. He's a little too dorky, though.

Yup, too cool for werewolves. Too... Pureblood?

You said it!

From: [identity profile] grrliz.livejournal.com


I don't have much to add, but "Snape is a Vampire" is my absolute favourite "I can't believe people are still arguing this" theory. :D

From: [identity profile] noxasclepia.livejournal.com


'Seductive' is one of those words that people traditionally try to match to fanon!Snape more than canon!Snape. Used in the context that you have provided, Magpie, it becomes very appropriate, canonically. Love it! :)
ext_6866: (Me and my boyfriend.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks! And yeah, I was careful about using it because I definitely didn't mean seductive in the fanon!Snape way.

From: [identity profile] lady-mad.livejournal.com

Here from the Daily Snitch


*waves* Hello!

I can see Draco being scared of werewolves because of a meeting with Fenrir Greyback as a child. I should think that he would be enough to scare any under eleven year old (taking age from context of PS)!

I enjoyed reading this and I thought it was v. thought provoking.

Also liked the idea of Snape seducing Harry via the textbook xD *is a rampant slasher*
ext_6866: (Baby magpies)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com

Re: Here from the Daily Snitch


Also liked the idea of Snape seducing Harry via the textbook xD *is a rampant slasher*

Hee!

And yeah, if Fenrir really is a good family friend, you can see why Draco would hide under the bed when friends came over!

From: [identity profile] da-sadist.livejournal.com


lol i used to think before that Snape might be related to a vampire myself, though I'd never heard of Draco being a werewolf... strange things fandom comes up with

anyhow- i know theres a chance i'll sound retarded by asking this but...
The only other person Fenrir is connected to is Lupin, whom he bit and with whom he is currently living.
Lupin and Fenrir are living together? This was metioned in HBP? And I missed it??!! I shall kick myself.

ext_6866: (Maybe I'm wrong.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Heh--I thought about that after I posted it, I think I made it sound like something other than I meant. They're "living together" in the sense that Lupin has been "living among [his] equals" meaning with the werewolves. As far as I know they're not sharing a flat or anything, which is what I made it sound like.:-)
.

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