Ron and Hermione at the Yule Ball

[sistermagpie]

In his totally enjoyable read-through of GoF, pauraque has gotten to the Yule Ball, and Ron's treatment of Hermione therein. It made me look at it from Ron's pov

In his recap of chapter 23 he says :

'Viktor's just gone to get some drinks.'

Ron gave her a withering look.

'Viktor?' he said. 'Hasn't he asked you to call him Vicky yet?'

Hermione looked at him in surprise.

'What's up with you?' she said.

'If you don't know,' said Ron scathingly, 'I'm not going to tell you.' (366)

'[H]e said he'd been coming to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he hadn't been able to pluck up the courage!'

[...]

'Yeah, well -- that's his story,' said Ron nastily.

'And what's that supposed to mean?'

'Obvious, isn't it? He's Karkaroff's student, isn't he? He knows who you hang around with ... he's just trying to get closer to Harry[...]' (367)

pauraque: Goddamn! I generally like Ron, but he's such a bitch in this scene. The "If you don't know, I'm not telling you" is especially outrageous (I despise it when people say that to me), but telling his supposed friend that she only got a date because he's trying to spy on Harry? Again, I don't really get it... If the idea is that he's attracted to her, WHY is he constantly putting her down? WHY does he keep going on about how absurd it is that anyone could BE attracted to her? He honestly sounds like he's jealous of her for dating him, not jealous of him for dating her. No slash goggles required. Hermione is right to get upset.

This made me first realize that Ron does the same thing to Hermione as Arthur does to Percy. She shows up pleased with herself for having been chosen by someone and looking nice, and Ron says Viktor could never like her for herself, he just wants to get to Harry. So she's even more humiliated, because she was feeling so good the moment before.

As pauraque points out, Ron really is a bitch in this scene. I started thinking about why. We know the Weasleys, for all of Ginny's sass, are a very traditional family. All the boys are very protective of their little sister. Ron's "almost calling Ginny a slut," as angry as it makes fandom, is not just Ron almost calling Ginny a slut, it's Ron concerned that his sister will be called a slut by others for making out with people in public--think Tony Manero to Angela in Saturday Night Fever: "Are you happy now? Now you're a pig." It's ugly, but Ron's and the Twins' concern isn't just about their being stupid, it's about how they see the world working. Ron's not really wrong after all--people in fandom actually do call Ginny a slut!

That was a total tangent, written really just to point out that the Weasleys are very traditional and often unsophisticated when it comes to men and women, and this has always suited them just fine. They make a distinction between "girls like this" and "girls like that." And I think that unfortunate, ugly subtext is present in Ron's accusations of Hermione here. His anger at her and his accusations, to me, echo Molly's "scarlet woman" accusations of later on.

But I don't think that's all it is. I don't think the problem is that Ron thinks Hermione is a whore in the scene. I think it's something more about Ron. We're hit over the head with the fact that the boys don't even immediately recognize Hermione when she walks into the ball. (I'll quote pauraque here because he's funny>:

It was Hermione.

But she didn't look like Hermione at all. She had done something with her hair; it was no longer bushy, but sleek and shiny, and twisted up into an elegant knot at the back of her head. She was wearing robes made of a floaty, periwinkle-blue material, and she was holding herself differently somehow -- or maybe it was merely the absence of the twenty or so books she usually had slung over her back.

[...]

Parvati was gazing at Hermione in unflattering disbelief. She wasn't the only one, either[...] (360)

And her eyes were violet, and she was the last of the cat people, and she was secretly Sirius's daughter, and a flying unicorn Animagus, and and and!

*snicker* Honestly.

While my first thought is to think Ron and Harry don't recognize Hermione because as described she sounds like a chaperone in her periwinkle and modest twist hair, we get that she's supposed to be suddenly pretty. We're not told she's wearing make-up, perhaps because Harry might not think of it or perhaps because, in the fine tradition of Mary Sues, Hermione does not have to wear it, but I'm assuming she is enjoying the effects make-up can give even without using it: it makes her look different.

She is different, probably even more so for Ron. Ron, I think, divides the world very clearly between one type of girl and another. This is why he gets uncomfortable when the one kind (like his sister) acts like the other kind (by making out in a hallway). In Hermione's case, though, I don't think Ron is upset by Hermione dressing in a way that suggests she's sexually available in a general way. I think her showing up as a different girl with Viktor makes him upset that she's not this girl with *him.*

I mean, from the girls' pov--certainly from Hermione's--it's very empowering and sensible to say you're not going to waste time dolling yourself up everyday. But from the boys' pov it may be more straightforward: you make an effort to look pretty for him and not for me. Ron spends time with the bushy-haired Hermione who snaps and nags. Viktor comes along and she goes to great lengths to do what Ron isn't worth--get dolled up. I would suspect that up until this moment it never occurred to Ron that she *could* look like that, because in his mind there's girls who do and girls who don't. It's all very well to demand, on principle, that a boy be less shallow, but they really do often see a huge difference depending how one is dressed.

See, there's always a lot of emphasis put on the fact that Ron never treats Hermione well--he takes her for granted, he drools over Fleur, he doesn't even notice she's a girl. But by showing up at the ball with Viktor looking like that, Hermione is doing the exact same thing as Ron, making it clear that she does not find him desirable or care about him desiring her, it's *Viktor* she desires and wishes to find her desirable. pauraque describes Ron here as telling his friend that it's absurd that anyone could be actually attracted to her, but that may not be his intention. He doesn't insult Hermione's attempt at transformation or criticize her attempt to look pretty. It's more like he's accusing her for looking pretty all along and criticizing the man she's looking pretty for--he has nefarious motives.

And Hermione continues to do this throughout the series. Angry that Ron doesn't notice her, Hermione becomes even more adamant about not going out of her way to "chase" him. *He's* supposed to notice she's attractive and show her he has. Instead he goes after Lavender-and what did Lavender do? She treated Ron like a boy! She flirted with him, batted her eyelashes, made it clear she was interested. Everyone seems to take it for granted that it's obvious Hermione likes Ron (Harry knows it, but perhaps a "real" Harry, one who isn't really a fictional construct written by a woman, would not), but really, this is the only time in canon when Hermione really suggests that she's interested in this type of thing, and it's for somebody else. It's not that unbelievable to think that Ron, upon seeing Hermione at the ball, is drawing the same line that Hermione feels Ron is drawing for Fleur: that's a person I'm interested in sexually; you do not get that kind of notice from me. Ron's "Hermione, you're a girl!" line in GoF is pointed to as an example of his cluelessness--Viktor immediately saw her as a girl. But ironically, Hermione has yet to actually do the reverse with Ron. It's Lavender who treats him like a boy, not Hermione.

With Hermione safely tucked into the same category as "sisters" for Ron, he's probably unaware of how his staring at Fleur comes off to her--he doesn't think Hermione thinks about stuff like that anyway. As far as he's concerned at that moment, any romance within the Trio is unthinkable. Then, from his pov, Hermione suddenly reveals herself to have been a "real girl" all along, only that part of her is reserved for boys other than Ron, just as Ron's attention to female beauty seems to her to be reserved for girls like Fleur.

This is the reason Ron is such a bitch in the scene. He's not just putting her down out of spite, or being insensitive. I think he sees Hermione's appearance at the ball as a rejection, a sign that Hermione withholds this from him for a reason, and he automatically falls into a clumsy defense of himself: Oh, so you're "one of those girls" for him? I'm not good enough for you? Well, I'm the one who likes you for yourself. He's just trying to get to Harry.

I think this is why JKR can drag this romance out in ways that H/G could never have been. Harry and Ginny have never been "just friends." They began their relationship as a potential couple with Ginny's crush. Not to mention the fact that Ginny has always been a potential love object, period. Throughout the series she's pursued and been pursued by males. There's no "wait, you're a girl?" moment with Ginny, because being a girl has always been her main defining feature.

p.s. So I see one comment about changing the "currents" on my flist and finally tackled S2. I felt like I had to try to keep things as close to the same as possible, but I'm still tweaking. I think I spent about 5 hours last night working on getting things almost the same, just to change that one thing!

Comments

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

WHY is he constantly putting her down? WHY does he keep going on about how absurd it is that anyone could BE attracted to her? He honestly sounds like he's jealous of her for dating him, not jealous of him for dating her. No slash goggles required. Hermione is right to get upset.

Oh, yeah--but I've always interpreted Ron's comments in the way you have. Not "no one else could possibly find you attractive," but "I don't want anyone else to find you attractive"--except Ron's not self-aware enough to say this well.

I think this is why JKR can drag this romance out in ways that H/G could never have been. Harry and Ginny have never been "just friends." They began their relationship as a potential couple with Ginny's crush. Not to mention the fact that Ginny has always been a potential love object, period.

Yeah, H/G is very Hero-Gets-The-Girl. Ginny is The Girl of the Potterverse, not Hermione. I myself don't care for that kind of set-up, which is why H/G doesn't do all that much for me.

[anehan]

"I don't want anyone else to find you attractive"

I definitely think that Ron is a person who could think like--if only subconciously. Like Magpie said, the Weasleys are old-fashioned, and Ron has exactly the same kind attitude when he freaks out because of Ginny's boyfriends. It's the 'no sister/girlfriend/wife of mine is that kind of woman' attitude.

I think it's possible that, should Ron and Hermione date and marry each other, it might cause some conflicts. Ron might not like it if Hermione were to show her beautiful or lively side outside their home, and Hermione certainly doesn't take kindly to that kind of interference. I think it's clear Hermione comes from a liberal family and does not understand Ron's more traditional opinions.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Hmm.

So the only bit of this that doesn't scan for me is, if he does feel this way, then why didn't he ask her to the Ball? If he feels that he liked her for herself, etc, and sees this as rejection—I mean, what did he think she was doing? Who did he think she was going with? Was it simply that he had so firmly put her in the "girls that don't" box that he couldn't imagine that anyone else would see her any differently? If he had been successful in asking someone else to the ball, what would he have expected from Hermione then?

And while I can totally see Ron dividing girls into "these and those", does he think that boys only date "those"? My error might be in trying to follow his reasoning to its logical conclusion when that's never what he does; Ron is remarkably unquestioning about things. But it seems to me that if Ron wants to be all, "I like you for you" then he should have asked her in the first place.

But you know, I'm notorious for not letting Ron off the hook; I suppose I'm like Hermione in that way. I feel like the narrative itself lets him off the hook all the time (except for whatever Hermione might have to say) in a way that it never does for Hermione—and certainly Harry is much more likely to call Hermione to task for her actions than Ron.

(hee, a canon reason to use the Ron/Padma icon!)

[tehlils.livejournal.com]

"I don't want anyone else to find you attractive"

That is very well put. Hmmm. I will have to ponder all of this some more. I'm inclined to agree with the whole post, but I think there's something missing from it, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

I think it's clear Hermione comes from a liberal family and does not understand Ron's more traditional opinions.

You know, I'm not sure about that. Hermione's family is probably liberal, and so is Hermione herself, but at the same time she seems to share the contempt that Ron and Harry have for women who are overtly pretty and "feminine" and flirty--e.g. Cho, Fleur, Parvati, or Lavender.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

So the only bit of this that doesn't scan for me is, if he does feel this way, then why didn't he ask her to the Ball?

I think he probably didn't even know he felt this way about her until he saw her. I mean, when he's treating her like she's not a girl at all, I think he means it. It's not just that Hermione isn't giving him the go-ahead, it's that he's probably not attracted to her either.

I think you're right not to let him off the hook, actually--a lot of the way I think he's feeling is just lazy. If he'd asked a girl to the ball and she'd gone with him, he might still have felt unnerved by Hermione suddenly being somebody he might have wanted to go with. It's like...to me it seems like before the ball it's not an issue. Seeing Hermione in a dress is suddenly a threat that he could lose her, and that makes him sort of revise all of their previous relationship in his mind. Suddenly instead of Hermione just being herself and him being himself, he probably sees her as witholding something from him, if that makes sense. The irony is that, as you said, he *didn't* ask her to the ball. Had he asked she would have gone with him. But he didn't really want to go with the Hermione he knew.

[anehan]

True. I completely forgot that. And now I wonder why she'd want to become like them for the Yule ball (flirtatiousness excluded) when she usually is dismissive of them.

[ackonrad.livejournal.com]

at the same time she (Hermione) seems to share the contempt that Ron and Harry have for women who are overtly pretty and "feminine" and flirty--e.g. Cho, Fleur, Parvati, or Lavender.

This is why I've always wondered why Hermione doesn't hold any contempt for Ginny, who is, exactly like the girls you mentioned, pretty, popular, flirty and feminine. It's not as though Lavender or even Cho have had more boyfriends than Ginny, or have had every stranger on the street comment on their beauty.

[trobadora]

You know, I noticed that too - that Ron's doing the same thing to Hermione that Arthur is doing to Percy. And I wonder how much it is some kind of family group mentality thing - that you don't get to have something that's just yours, separate from the family. Erm. It makes sense in my head.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ginny doesn't work for it, is probably the idea. She's just as contemptuous as Hermione about people who care about their looks. She can't help it that she happens to be naturally pretty! And far from being flirty, she pushes boys around and they correctly fall at her feet.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I do see what you mean. It's a threat that both of them find something outside the group, that they are maybe getting attention from outside the group. And both Percy and Hermione sort of intentionally do it on their own, as well. So it's not like the whole group is sharing in their triumph. It's just theirs.

[ackonrad.livejournal.com]

She can't help it that she happens to be naturally pretty!

But Fleur and Cho and Parvati are naturally pretty, too - Seamus called the Patil twins the prettiest girls in their year, and Cho's popularity is partly due her good looks, too. As for Fleur, she is part Veela - it's not her fault she's been born pretty either.

It's probably JKR trying to be logical and failing miserably, if you ask me. One one side, we're supposed to dislike girls like Cho who happen to be pretty and popular, on the other side, we're supposed to drool over Ginny, who is - surprise! - pretty and popular, too. WTF?

She's just as contemptuous as Hermione about people who care about their looks.

Um, can you point out to me when Ginny says that or does something to indicate it, because as much as I try to remember such a moment, I can't.

And far from being flirty, she pushes boys around and they correctly fall at her feet.

Are we supposed to believe this is how she got Michael and Dean, too? If yes, then we can expect a lovesick Zacharias Smith in the next book. *gags*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Um, can you point out to me when Ginny says that or does something to indicate it, because as much as I try to remember such a moment, I can't.

My bad. I just assumed it. We never hear, that I can think of, of post-OotP Ginny saying anything about her books. I just assume she's think any girl who didn't have her interests and outlook and was also popular was shallow. I mean, she's so aggressively "I couldn't care less" about guys except for Harry. I don't think we're supposed to think of Cho as shallow, actually. She's wimpy and all, and her hanging around with girls doesn't bode well for her in OotP, but she doesn't ever seem too described as being too into her looks, so she's okay. If she were really into her looks Harry would no doubt not have been "fooled" as long as he was.

Are we supposed to believe this is how she got Michael and Dean, too? If yes, then we can expect a lovesick Zacharias Smith in the next book. *gags*

This yes, I do think is true. Of her whole relationship with Michael we basically hear about her hexing him while he won't hex her back at the DA, we hear her going over to order Michael to do something in OotP, and then she says she dumped him because he was a bad loser. With Dean she says she's "chosen him" in response to Ron, and says when Dean expects her to hang out with him, but in their relationship we hear she's pissed at him over Harry's Quidditch accident, and she snipes at him for "helping" her through the portrait hole. She puts down Blaise, whom Pansy says finds her attractive.

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

That is weird. Maybe because Ginny's more "masculine" in her behavior--i.e. aggressive and unemotional--than those other girls?

[saturniia.livejournal.com]

Yes, but at the same time, Ginny falls into at least two categories that the others don't: "Ron's sister" and "sporty girl". As Ron's sister, Ginny's not in competition with Hermione the same way the other girls are; she's not a potential girlfriend of Ron, the boy in whom Hermione has the most interest. As a "sporty girl", she has something in common with Cho in the same way a basketball player has something in common with a track star or dancer.

The Seeker, like Cho, is the track star/dancer. The position places great physical demands on the player, since the Seeker must accelerate and decelerate quickly, dive, climb, and make turns with split-second accuracy, and constantly keep alert for a little golden ball. At the same time, though, the snitch is the only thing that needs to have the Seeker's constant focus (well, the snitch and the score, but the snitch is the only thing actually on the pitch). Yes, the Seeker must also be alert for bludgers and beaters, but these are occasional hazards, since the seeker can fly high above and below the rest of the field of play. Furthermore, Cho isn't as "good" as Harry (since Gryffindor has a pretty good record of beating Ravenclaw. Cho could very well beat both Draco Malfoy and the Hufflepuff seeker with one hand tied behind her back, but that's neither here nor there).

The Chaser, on the other hand, is like a basketball player. He or she is right in the thick of the action, passing, catching, dodging bludgers and bats and elbows. The awareness of the Chaser is different from that of the Seeker because the Chaser must always process tens of stimuli at once: all that I've listed above, plus the distance from the ground, the distance to one's own goals, the distance to the opposing team's goals, the positions of one's own and also the opposing Keeper. The physical demands may be less along the Z-axis (left-right=x, in front-behind=y, up-down=z when one is facing the goals with feet toward the ground) and the ball of which a Chaser keeps track may be larger, but the other physical challenges are equal or greater.

Woo, I've gotten off on a tangent. Anyway, my point is this: Hermione doesn't have contempt for Ginny because they're not in competition, and because Hermione seems to respect "sporty girls".

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

That's what really bugs me, actually--the fact that Ron still can't seem to integrate the Hermione he knows with the one he's interested in. And I happen to agree with Hermione that she shouldn't have had to chase after him--perhaps she could've indicated her interest a little more strongly, but it's not like it would've been easy for her, knowing how emotionally immature he still is and how likely he'd be to hurt her feelings in response. I really hope you're not suggesting that it's necessary to actively flirt with someone and "treat them like a girl/boy" to show that you're interested in them; maybe it is necessary for someone you don't know well, but when you've been friends with someone for years, there are subtler ways of letting them know your feelings--you shouldn't have to bat your eyes and giggle at them.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I really hope you're not suggesting that it's necessary to actively flirt with someone and "treat them like a girl/boy" to show that you're interested in them; maybe it is necessary for someone you don't know well, but when you've been friends with someone for years, there are subtler ways of letting them know your feelings--you shouldn't have to bat your eyes and giggle at them.

Oh, absolutely not. If I were in Hermione's place I'd be in the same spot. This was just me thinking, "Why IS Ron being such a bitch?" I mean, he's really hostile here, and that made me think that from his pov, he's probably dealing with a whole lot of things that wouldn't occur to me in the scene. I'm giving what's possibly the jerk's pov here, not my own.

[gingersomething.livejournal.com]

that could just be simple jealousy, though.

[onlyinfatuated.livejournal.com]

Throughout the series she's pursued and been pursued by males. There's no "wait, you're a girl?" moment with Ginny, because being a girl has always been her main defining feature.

I swear to God I had a moment like that with my friends.

We'd known each other for like 8 years. And then one day, I was chilling out with one of them, and he was telling me about how his girlfriend was actually jealous of me and feeling threatened. His words: That's stupid, though, because you're not a girl. My reaction was the same as Hermione's: WTF??? So of course, he said the same thing Harry and Ron did: No, no, I didn't mean it like that, it's just that we're good friends, you're like one of the guys, you're not a girl to me, you're one of us. Again, my reaction was WTF??????

[gingersomething.livejournal.com]

i agree about the subtler ways of letting someone know you like them, but i'm 20 and still rarely see things work out like that. i think ron and hermione's behavior here is typical for their age. or if not typical, most definitely understandable. suddenly developing feelings for a girl who you used to think of as "one of the guys" can be a startling experience.

[gingersomething.livejournal.com]

that used to happen to me a lot, too. :[

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yup, I've been there too. They seem to think that we should get exactly what they mean, and not find it insulting. It just doesn't work.

[vvvexation.livejournal.com]

*sigh* Perhaps that's why I never understood people my age when I was that age. But then I don't understand most people anyway.

(That is, I can analyze their actions and the possible reasons for them, but I find it hard to be sympathetic unless they at least are self-aware enough to know they're not behaving sensibly.)

[gingersomething.livejournal.com]

haha believe me, i know how you feel. "love" is usually the thing people behave LEAST sensibly about, especially if those people are teenagers.

i think another thing about the ron/hermione dynamic, particularly the reason it's taking so long to flesh out, is because it's so much harder admitting you like one of your best friends than it is admitting you like someone you barely know. like ron with lavender, if (when) they broke up, he didn't have anything to lose. he would just be back where he started from. but with hermione, if they got together and then broke up, it would change ron's whole world. he'd be losing someone very important. it can be extremely difficult to take that step.

here via the snitch

[edido.livejournal.com]

*laughs* Ron really is a nasty little bitch in this scene, isn't he?

I think that like many boys (and men too) he only becomes interested in Hermione once he found out she had a date. I'm not sure why, but to a lot of guys it seems that females who are attractive to other guys are therefore attractive to them. If I can go all anthropological for a second, I'd guess this is to do with competition amongst males; she has now moved into the "prize" category. It seems like he only notices her at this minute, and yet in that same minute finds out she may not be attainable.

Subsequently, he is obsessed with who is taking her, and he even notices her teeth, LOL. When he finds out it is Viktor Krum! who is interested in her, she has suddenly gone from buddy status to being an unobtainable female; out of his league even. Poor Ron has to wrap his head around all these revelations over the course of a few days. I think how she looks at the ball is just the icing on the cake for him, but wouldn't have made much of a difference to him, except she may attract even more competitors looking like that.

He doesn't realize his comments are uncomplimentary to Hermione, and he doesn't mean them to be. He is trying to sink the competition (badly) with a display of chest-beating. Well... maybe more of a finger-snapping, LOL.