Ron and Hermione at the Yule Ball

[sistermagpie]

In his totally enjoyable read-through of GoF, pauraque has gotten to the Yule Ball, and Ron's treatment of Hermione therein. It made me look at it from Ron's pov

In his recap of chapter 23 he says :

'Viktor's just gone to get some drinks.'

Ron gave her a withering look.

'Viktor?' he said. 'Hasn't he asked you to call him Vicky yet?'

Hermione looked at him in surprise.

'What's up with you?' she said.

'If you don't know,' said Ron scathingly, 'I'm not going to tell you.' (366)

'[H]e said he'd been coming to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he hadn't been able to pluck up the courage!'

[...]

'Yeah, well -- that's his story,' said Ron nastily.

'And what's that supposed to mean?'

'Obvious, isn't it? He's Karkaroff's student, isn't he? He knows who you hang around with ... he's just trying to get closer to Harry[...]' (367)

pauraque: Goddamn! I generally like Ron, but he's such a bitch in this scene. The "If you don't know, I'm not telling you" is especially outrageous (I despise it when people say that to me), but telling his supposed friend that she only got a date because he's trying to spy on Harry? Again, I don't really get it... If the idea is that he's attracted to her, WHY is he constantly putting her down? WHY does he keep going on about how absurd it is that anyone could BE attracted to her? He honestly sounds like he's jealous of her for dating him, not jealous of him for dating her. No slash goggles required. Hermione is right to get upset.

This made me first realize that Ron does the same thing to Hermione as Arthur does to Percy. She shows up pleased with herself for having been chosen by someone and looking nice, and Ron says Viktor could never like her for herself, he just wants to get to Harry. So she's even more humiliated, because she was feeling so good the moment before.

As pauraque points out, Ron really is a bitch in this scene. I started thinking about why. We know the Weasleys, for all of Ginny's sass, are a very traditional family. All the boys are very protective of their little sister. Ron's "almost calling Ginny a slut," as angry as it makes fandom, is not just Ron almost calling Ginny a slut, it's Ron concerned that his sister will be called a slut by others for making out with people in public--think Tony Manero to Angela in Saturday Night Fever: "Are you happy now? Now you're a pig." It's ugly, but Ron's and the Twins' concern isn't just about their being stupid, it's about how they see the world working. Ron's not really wrong after all--people in fandom actually do call Ginny a slut!

That was a total tangent, written really just to point out that the Weasleys are very traditional and often unsophisticated when it comes to men and women, and this has always suited them just fine. They make a distinction between "girls like this" and "girls like that." And I think that unfortunate, ugly subtext is present in Ron's accusations of Hermione here. His anger at her and his accusations, to me, echo Molly's "scarlet woman" accusations of later on.

But I don't think that's all it is. I don't think the problem is that Ron thinks Hermione is a whore in the scene. I think it's something more about Ron. We're hit over the head with the fact that the boys don't even immediately recognize Hermione when she walks into the ball. (I'll quote pauraque here because he's funny>:

It was Hermione.

But she didn't look like Hermione at all. She had done something with her hair; it was no longer bushy, but sleek and shiny, and twisted up into an elegant knot at the back of her head. She was wearing robes made of a floaty, periwinkle-blue material, and she was holding herself differently somehow -- or maybe it was merely the absence of the twenty or so books she usually had slung over her back.

[...]

Parvati was gazing at Hermione in unflattering disbelief. She wasn't the only one, either[...] (360)

And her eyes were violet, and she was the last of the cat people, and she was secretly Sirius's daughter, and a flying unicorn Animagus, and and and!

*snicker* Honestly.

While my first thought is to think Ron and Harry don't recognize Hermione because as described she sounds like a chaperone in her periwinkle and modest twist hair, we get that she's supposed to be suddenly pretty. We're not told she's wearing make-up, perhaps because Harry might not think of it or perhaps because, in the fine tradition of Mary Sues, Hermione does not have to wear it, but I'm assuming she is enjoying the effects make-up can give even without using it: it makes her look different.

She is different, probably even more so for Ron. Ron, I think, divides the world very clearly between one type of girl and another. This is why he gets uncomfortable when the one kind (like his sister) acts like the other kind (by making out in a hallway). In Hermione's case, though, I don't think Ron is upset by Hermione dressing in a way that suggests she's sexually available in a general way. I think her showing up as a different girl with Viktor makes him upset that she's not this girl with *him.*

I mean, from the girls' pov--certainly from Hermione's--it's very empowering and sensible to say you're not going to waste time dolling yourself up everyday. But from the boys' pov it may be more straightforward: you make an effort to look pretty for him and not for me. Ron spends time with the bushy-haired Hermione who snaps and nags. Viktor comes along and she goes to great lengths to do what Ron isn't worth--get dolled up. I would suspect that up until this moment it never occurred to Ron that she *could* look like that, because in his mind there's girls who do and girls who don't. It's all very well to demand, on principle, that a boy be less shallow, but they really do often see a huge difference depending how one is dressed.

See, there's always a lot of emphasis put on the fact that Ron never treats Hermione well--he takes her for granted, he drools over Fleur, he doesn't even notice she's a girl. But by showing up at the ball with Viktor looking like that, Hermione is doing the exact same thing as Ron, making it clear that she does not find him desirable or care about him desiring her, it's *Viktor* she desires and wishes to find her desirable. pauraque describes Ron here as telling his friend that it's absurd that anyone could be actually attracted to her, but that may not be his intention. He doesn't insult Hermione's attempt at transformation or criticize her attempt to look pretty. It's more like he's accusing her for looking pretty all along and criticizing the man she's looking pretty for--he has nefarious motives.

And Hermione continues to do this throughout the series. Angry that Ron doesn't notice her, Hermione becomes even more adamant about not going out of her way to "chase" him. *He's* supposed to notice she's attractive and show her he has. Instead he goes after Lavender-and what did Lavender do? She treated Ron like a boy! She flirted with him, batted her eyelashes, made it clear she was interested. Everyone seems to take it for granted that it's obvious Hermione likes Ron (Harry knows it, but perhaps a "real" Harry, one who isn't really a fictional construct written by a woman, would not), but really, this is the only time in canon when Hermione really suggests that she's interested in this type of thing, and it's for somebody else. It's not that unbelievable to think that Ron, upon seeing Hermione at the ball, is drawing the same line that Hermione feels Ron is drawing for Fleur: that's a person I'm interested in sexually; you do not get that kind of notice from me. Ron's "Hermione, you're a girl!" line in GoF is pointed to as an example of his cluelessness--Viktor immediately saw her as a girl. But ironically, Hermione has yet to actually do the reverse with Ron. It's Lavender who treats him like a boy, not Hermione.

With Hermione safely tucked into the same category as "sisters" for Ron, he's probably unaware of how his staring at Fleur comes off to her--he doesn't think Hermione thinks about stuff like that anyway. As far as he's concerned at that moment, any romance within the Trio is unthinkable. Then, from his pov, Hermione suddenly reveals herself to have been a "real girl" all along, only that part of her is reserved for boys other than Ron, just as Ron's attention to female beauty seems to her to be reserved for girls like Fleur.

This is the reason Ron is such a bitch in the scene. He's not just putting her down out of spite, or being insensitive. I think he sees Hermione's appearance at the ball as a rejection, a sign that Hermione withholds this from him for a reason, and he automatically falls into a clumsy defense of himself: Oh, so you're "one of those girls" for him? I'm not good enough for you? Well, I'm the one who likes you for yourself. He's just trying to get to Harry.

I think this is why JKR can drag this romance out in ways that H/G could never have been. Harry and Ginny have never been "just friends." They began their relationship as a potential couple with Ginny's crush. Not to mention the fact that Ginny has always been a potential love object, period. Throughout the series she's pursued and been pursued by males. There's no "wait, you're a girl?" moment with Ginny, because being a girl has always been her main defining feature.

p.s. So I see one comment about changing the "currents" on my flist and finally tackled S2. I felt like I had to try to keep things as close to the same as possible, but I'm still tweaking. I think I spent about 5 hours last night working on getting things almost the same, just to change that one thing!

Comments

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

WHY is he constantly putting her down? WHY does he keep going on about how absurd it is that anyone could BE attracted to her? He honestly sounds like he's jealous of her for dating him, not jealous of him for dating her. No slash goggles required. Hermione is right to get upset.

Oh, yeah--but I've always interpreted Ron's comments in the way you have. Not "no one else could possibly find you attractive," but "I don't want anyone else to find you attractive"--except Ron's not self-aware enough to say this well.

I think this is why JKR can drag this romance out in ways that H/G could never have been. Harry and Ginny have never been "just friends." They began their relationship as a potential couple with Ginny's crush. Not to mention the fact that Ginny has always been a potential love object, period.

Yeah, H/G is very Hero-Gets-The-Girl. Ginny is The Girl of the Potterverse, not Hermione. I myself don't care for that kind of set-up, which is why H/G doesn't do all that much for me.

[anehan]

"I don't want anyone else to find you attractive"

I definitely think that Ron is a person who could think like--if only subconciously. Like Magpie said, the Weasleys are old-fashioned, and Ron has exactly the same kind attitude when he freaks out because of Ginny's boyfriends. It's the 'no sister/girlfriend/wife of mine is that kind of woman' attitude.

I think it's possible that, should Ron and Hermione date and marry each other, it might cause some conflicts. Ron might not like it if Hermione were to show her beautiful or lively side outside their home, and Hermione certainly doesn't take kindly to that kind of interference. I think it's clear Hermione comes from a liberal family and does not understand Ron's more traditional opinions.

[tehlils.livejournal.com]

"I don't want anyone else to find you attractive"

That is very well put. Hmmm. I will have to ponder all of this some more. I'm inclined to agree with the whole post, but I think there's something missing from it, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

Hmm.

So the only bit of this that doesn't scan for me is, if he does feel this way, then why didn't he ask her to the Ball? If he feels that he liked her for herself, etc, and sees this as rejection—I mean, what did he think she was doing? Who did he think she was going with? Was it simply that he had so firmly put her in the "girls that don't" box that he couldn't imagine that anyone else would see her any differently? If he had been successful in asking someone else to the ball, what would he have expected from Hermione then?

And while I can totally see Ron dividing girls into "these and those", does he think that boys only date "those"? My error might be in trying to follow his reasoning to its logical conclusion when that's never what he does; Ron is remarkably unquestioning about things. But it seems to me that if Ron wants to be all, "I like you for you" then he should have asked her in the first place.

But you know, I'm notorious for not letting Ron off the hook; I suppose I'm like Hermione in that way. I feel like the narrative itself lets him off the hook all the time (except for whatever Hermione might have to say) in a way that it never does for Hermione—and certainly Harry is much more likely to call Hermione to task for her actions than Ron.

(hee, a canon reason to use the Ron/Padma icon!)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

So the only bit of this that doesn't scan for me is, if he does feel this way, then why didn't he ask her to the Ball?

I think he probably didn't even know he felt this way about her until he saw her. I mean, when he's treating her like she's not a girl at all, I think he means it. It's not just that Hermione isn't giving him the go-ahead, it's that he's probably not attracted to her either.

I think you're right not to let him off the hook, actually--a lot of the way I think he's feeling is just lazy. If he'd asked a girl to the ball and she'd gone with him, he might still have felt unnerved by Hermione suddenly being somebody he might have wanted to go with. It's like...to me it seems like before the ball it's not an issue. Seeing Hermione in a dress is suddenly a threat that he could lose her, and that makes him sort of revise all of their previous relationship in his mind. Suddenly instead of Hermione just being herself and him being himself, he probably sees her as witholding something from him, if that makes sense. The irony is that, as you said, he *didn't* ask her to the ball. Had he asked she would have gone with him. But he didn't really want to go with the Hermione he knew.

[trobadora]

You know, I noticed that too - that Ron's doing the same thing to Hermione that Arthur is doing to Percy. And I wonder how much it is some kind of family group mentality thing - that you don't get to have something that's just yours, separate from the family. Erm. It makes sense in my head.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I do see what you mean. It's a threat that both of them find something outside the group, that they are maybe getting attention from outside the group. And both Percy and Hermione sort of intentionally do it on their own, as well. So it's not like the whole group is sharing in their triumph. It's just theirs.

[onlyinfatuated.livejournal.com]

Throughout the series she's pursued and been pursued by males. There's no "wait, you're a girl?" moment with Ginny, because being a girl has always been her main defining feature.

I swear to God I had a moment like that with my friends.

We'd known each other for like 8 years. And then one day, I was chilling out with one of them, and he was telling me about how his girlfriend was actually jealous of me and feeling threatened. His words: That's stupid, though, because you're not a girl. My reaction was the same as Hermione's: WTF??? So of course, he said the same thing Harry and Ron did: No, no, I didn't mean it like that, it's just that we're good friends, you're like one of the guys, you're not a girl to me, you're one of us. Again, my reaction was WTF??????

[gingersomething.livejournal.com]

that used to happen to me a lot, too. :[

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yup, I've been there too. They seem to think that we should get exactly what they mean, and not find it insulting. It just doesn't work.

[alya1989262.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yeah. Guys do use 'girl' as an abreviation for 'girls to date' *g*. I've never had a 'wait, you're a girl?' moment, but mostly because the guys haven't even come to realise this yet! But, two years ago, when a good-looking classmate crushed on me and started pursuing me, my best male friend was speechless... He thought the other guy was putting himself in mortal danger.
So, yeah, 'girls not to date' aren't 'girls' to guys, but because guys think we don't want to date. And that makes even more sense in the R/Hr situation: Ron is angry that she hasn't displayed her availability before! She acted as though she didn't want anyone, and now he discovers she does want someone, but that someone isn't him!

here via the snitch

[edido.livejournal.com]

*laughs* Ron really is a nasty little bitch in this scene, isn't he?

I think that like many boys (and men too) he only becomes interested in Hermione once he found out she had a date. I'm not sure why, but to a lot of guys it seems that females who are attractive to other guys are therefore attractive to them. If I can go all anthropological for a second, I'd guess this is to do with competition amongst males; she has now moved into the "prize" category. It seems like he only notices her at this minute, and yet in that same minute finds out she may not be attainable.

Subsequently, he is obsessed with who is taking her, and he even notices her teeth, LOL. When he finds out it is Viktor Krum! who is interested in her, she has suddenly gone from buddy status to being an unobtainable female; out of his league even. Poor Ron has to wrap his head around all these revelations over the course of a few days. I think how she looks at the ball is just the icing on the cake for him, but wouldn't have made much of a difference to him, except she may attract even more competitors looking like that.

He doesn't realize his comments are uncomplimentary to Hermione, and he doesn't mean them to be. He is trying to sink the competition (badly) with a display of chest-beating. Well... maybe more of a finger-snapping, LOL.

Re: here via the snitch

[caseylane.livejournal.com]

Gosh, you guys give Ron a lot more credit than I do. I always took Ron as being attracted to Hermione, but he didn't know. He just knew that she was a friend and he had conflicting feelings about her.

He thought he knew her and all of a sudden, at the ball, he didn't. Then a guy he had a case of hero worship for asks her out and he's even more conflicted. All of a sudden he's angry at both of them and doesn't know why. He's tearing apart the little flying doll that he so loved before.

I think the poor boy didn't have a clue and only started realizing what he was feeling when he saw her being a "girl". All of a sudden the pieces fell in place, and at the same time he felt he was out of the game. Viktor Krum, a famous Quiddich player was dating her so how could poor Ron Weasley, in altered girls robes for the dance, ever have a chance with her now?

Talk about being overwhelmed.

[therobothand.livejournal.com]

here from daily snitch -- i really liked this essay, and it's much how i see it. to those who are saying it's unfair of ron not to notice hermione's "sexuality" (or what have you) earlier, or for that matter for hermione not to do anything about it earlier, just reminds us that these kids are fourteen. it's not only that hermione is suddenly so naturally feminine; it's also that harry and ron suddenly have teenage hormones that are saying, "hang on a tick--".

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Right--I mean, first you see Ron completely addled by his hormones with Veela, probably not realizing why he's acting the way he is there either. Then suddenly Hermione is different too.

[winningstreak.livejournal.com]

And her eyes were violet, and she was the last of the cat people, and she was secretly Sirius's daughter, and a flying unicorn Animagus, and and and!


I'd been thinking the same thing when I read the book- and there's also been something else that's been a little bit weird to me though I'd never heard anyone else mention it before, and it's not something that wouldn't happen in reality but

don't you think it's strange that someone like Hermione has two best friends who are both *boys*? If there's nobody that thought this then... well I guess I'm being overly critical. But so far, from what I've seen in school... Kids never really seemed to work out like that.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think it's probably more literary convention than reality-based, myself. Nowadays especially the boy/girl/boy group of friendships seem really common in books.

I remember seeing an interview with Emma Watson where she turned it into something else completely and said, "It's fun being the only girls," as if Hermione was always playing the boys off of each other. Um, no. At least not in the books.

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

This was great! I don't know if I'm ever going to be very enthusiastic about R/H, but at least you've given me a little sympathy for Ron in that scene now.

But from the boys' pov it may be more straightforward: you make an effort to look pretty for him and not for me. Ron spends time with the bushy-haired Hermione who snaps and nags. Viktor comes along and she goes to great lengths to do what Ron isn't worth--get dolled up.

In that case, his Christmas gift of "really interesting" perfume in OotP (I think it was) takes on a new meaning: "Do that for me!"

(Harry knows it, but perhaps a "real" Harry, one who isn't really a fictional construct written by a woman, would not)

Oh, I dunno. I think Harry's already verging on being a caricature of the insensitive/self-centered male at times. The fact that he does spot these dynamics once in a while makes him more realistic, as far as I'm concerned.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I dunno. I think Harry's already verging on being a caricature of the insensitive/self-centered male at times. The fact that he does spot these dynamics once in a while makes him more realistic, as far as I'm concerned.

This is definitely possible. I mean, I've never found it unrealistic in reading it when Harry figures out what's going on--after all, it's not like he talks to Ron about it and helps him figure it out.

But yeah, the perfume does seem to be more along those lines. He seems to obviously be trying to think of her as a girl there, which is a start. I'm not particularly fond of R/Hr as a couple myself--when I think of them married my mind immediately skips to the divorce.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

I agree with people who are saying it's not easy to like Hermione. She is not a likeable person; I think she has a good heart, but honestly, I felt like while Ron was a jerk in GoF, Hermione was just as bad, if not worse, in HBP.

I like to think that HBP made them both mature, especially if they pursue a relationship. Otherwise, it'll be weird. I think R/Hr is canon, but I really think they need to become people I think deserve one another before their relationship is quality.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's a good point. I mean, even if you sympathize with Hermione in GoF where she hasn't done anything wrong, once she realizes this isn't working, she needs to adjust and she doesn't. You can't just have two people working on how the other person is *supposed* to behave. You have to deal with the real person.

[maidenjedi]

Got here by way of pauraque, and just have to say, yes, yes, and yes. That's more or less how I've always thought of Ron at this stage of his and Hermione's friendship. He's astonished to discover that Hermione could be a "girl," and upset that she's not doing it for him.

Thanks for posting this!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm glad you liked it--and and that's a good sum-up!

[amythis.livejournal.com]

Again well-put. I like how you analyze the text and get inside the characters.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

think Tony Manero to Angela in Saturday Night Fever: "Are you happy now? Now you're a pig."

BWHAHAHA.

[H]e said he'd been coming to the library every day to try and talk to me, but he hadn't been able to pluck up the courage!'
[...]
'Yeah, well -- that's his story,' said Ron nastily.

I don't dispute Ron's bitchery in this chapter, but that sure does sound like a line. Just probably one to get in Hermione's pants rather than find out Harry's secrets.
But then, who could blame Ron for assuming Krum's actions were motivated by Harry? Everyone else's in the books are.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's true. Ron must be feeling at that moment that Harry is always at the center of the universe. Probably because he is. I remember reading something once talking about how in these hero stories there's always the moment where the hero has to learn everything isn't about them, and the person said they kept waiting for that moment in HP, but it never happened. Everything really is about Harry in HP.

Hmmmm Snow!!

[monkeymois.livejournal.com]

Thats really interesting I didn't think that complex into it
I just thought that Ron was just jealous
Adn with Hermione well like me as long as my hair is tied up and I have clothes on Im sweet but on nice occasions I do dress-up quite abit but I really liked your points very intelligent thinking

Re: Hmmmm Snow!!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I hadn't thought about it this much either until it came up on the readthrough, but I'm glad I did.

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of catching up here -there were so many posts in just a few days, so I had to save a few of them for later! ^^;

I agree as usual with everything you say here, and that's a tension that often is there in male/female friendships, I think. It's not really flattering to recieve the message that "you're a great friend, but you're not the kind of boy/girl one would want to date/go to bed with", even if it's meant to be a compliment.

Going on a tangent, re the Yule Ball chapter, though, I have to say that even before the "Hermione you're a girl", it really seems that both Harry and Ron regards her differently in their friendship, due to her gender. Usually it's "the trio", but as soon as they hear about the ball, it's all of a sudden "Harry and Ron". They worry about the other not getting a date, or dating a "troll", and not once do they think about the prospect of "getting Hermione a date", or wanting her "not to date a troll" either. If I was their friend, I have to say I'd be hurt by that, they're not even the slightest bit interested in how she's doing on the dating front. They never ask how it's going, and they seem perfectly willing to leave her behind, letting her go there alone, if they get the girls they dream of. This is of course seeing things from an entirely Hermione-perspective, but in her shoes, I think I would not only be hurt "as a girl", but "as a friend", too.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Me too-absolutely. And if I were Hermione I wouldn't be having any sports stars asking me to go either. It really does show them at their most insensitive that they don't even think about her. That makes neither of them asking her to begin with even worse.

[chocolatepot.livejournal.com]

I'm friending you, do you mind? 'Cos you're brilliant. This is PERFECT.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I don't mind being friended or brilliant.:-D Welcome--I'm glad you have you!

[(Anonymous)]

We're not told she's wearing make-up, perhaps because Harry might not think of it or perhaps because, in the fine tradition of Mary Sues, Hermione does not have to wear it

Sorry, but I do find that a little offensive. Not all boys prefer our girls to wear make-up, you know. We can think for ourselves and we don't all like the same things. I don't want to make too heavy weather of this, because I did enjoy reading your analysis, but this did leap out at me.

Makeup

[(Anonymous)]

Wither or not boys prefer it, the right makeup always makes a girl look better in such situtions.

[kishmish.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you. Also, isn't part of the reason for that bitchy Ron scene that he's trying to make Krum look bad so that Hermione won't be with him and won't be "taken"? He's certainly not very smart about it, but then he hasn't had much time to register all these feelings and think up a plan to break them up so he just blurts out the first stupid idea he has that he thinks could make her dislike Krum. I suppose the caveman part of his brain is just thinking HER+HIM= BAD, must get rid of HIM.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah--that's definitely the way I saw it. His brain can really handle little more than that!:-)