Amateur HP Psychology

[sistermagpie]

I am not getting any e-mail and I don't know why. They just started coming, but anything from today before the last ten minutes seems to be gone.

I've been reading this book on the Shadow as in Jung (kind of a theme lately) and I'm reading about how the Shadow is all the things you repress in yourself, so you're enraged when you see them in other people. So somebody else could be a terrible person but wouldn't bother you as much because you're not repressing those kinds of things too much. What's horrible about it is I'm reading and knowing that my shadow…

Is post-GoF Ginny Weasley.

She's not the only one, obviously, but oh my god she so is my shadow. When I hear anyone defending her--even reasonably--I am filled with rage. Of course, being who I am (what I repress) I have to try to listen objectively and even admit when the person has a point, because I always want to be accurate and blah blah. Sometimes even I have to defend her because something's off. But what I really want to do is hex the person so that they shut up. Or say something mean that's probably like, "Don't start talking about Quidditch, you'll only embarrass yourself." Or run into the person and put them in the infirmary. This is why it's so strange when people say one must hate Ginny because one wants Harry for herself, because when Harry is liking Ginny it's hard for me to just not see him as a jerk. Like I picture them in their 30s as some dreadful couple I'd avoid. Unfortunately this isn't exactly objective canon analysis, so I can't usually just say that.

The one good thing about this is Lupin is a lot like me in this way--I mean, the kind of stuff he swallows--so maybe he hates her too. I believe when Ginny is throwing her temper tantrum in OotP Lupin quietly shuts the door. For Lupin that's probably the equivalent of smacking her in the face. Poor guy has to live with her.

Oh, the other thing I just read in one essay in the book that we tend to notice and react to Shadow things more in our own gender than the opposite gender--we can ignore stuff when it's in the other gender. I guess that's where fandom's OMG U R JUS JELLUS AND U DON'T LIKE GIRLZ!!1!!1

I was thinking about this in my ballet class, mostly because I have another Shadow problem there, or maybe it's just a pet peeve. Okay, in a dance class you often split into groups to do combinations. There is this woman who always GOES WITH ALL THE GROUPS! In this case there's just the two groups, but it drives me up a tree. The point is to split up so there's room. Yes, she's just one more person, but why the hell does she get to decide that she's the person who gets to dance whenever she wants because everyone else is only going once? What if everybody just decided to do that? (And btw, we're talking about somebody who's in class with some professional dancers--not me--and is herself not even really on the level the class is at. Every time I see her doing it I start stewing. Also she always winds up standing near me so I'm wishing there wasn't somebody so close to me because I don't like people behind me and look--it's her!

Comments

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Regardless of what JKR intends for her, I read Ginny Weasley as an abused kid who never got the proper treatment for being betrayed/possessed by Tom Riddle -- and who is being raised by a truly horrible mother -- and who has grown up in a rather out of control, screwed up family.

That's all true. And when you think about it, Harry got more attention as the hero of CoS than Ginny did by being possessed and kidnapped. Poor Harry, but don't bother with things that have their own minds you should have known better, Ginny. She was made out to be a pitiable creature who made a bad decision. No one noticed that she did try to get rid of the diary, and she tried to save Harry from its clutches. I think I really must have liked pre-OotP Ginny. I can still stand up for her.

I don't think Molly's truly horrible, but she isn't the best Betty Crocker mom there is. And, her younger children suffer. When I do fanfic practice (I only post the lighter ones, but I practice with darker ones), I can write her as sympathetic (stuck at home for two decades raising kids can addle a person) or as a mean-spirited, life-ruining, malicious wench.

While Molly isn't horrible (there's worse, how about Mama!Bella?), yes! Her family is out of control. Ginny's been showing streaks of being like the twins, and they're jokster bullies. Maybe that's where Ginny and I disconnect. Though, maybe that's exactly where we're alike. I started practicing snarky, snide and plain mean comments when I was so obviously outclassed at school. The twins may have had more of an effect on Ginny, and a much more negative one, than we see in canon. And I'll bet that Ron picks on her when no one's looking, while keeping up the Protect The Only Girl in front of Harry (our narrator's ride) and others.

Sure, there are probably lots of things we don't see or have spelled out, and the POV is skewed by teenage hormones, too, and those from a boy who had a less than normal existence. Talk about running wild! Harry's finally being liked and loved, and he's in Happyland. I can see a lot of teens and younger, seeing the Cinderella aspects, and the mirrors of their enemies and friends, and going all Fangurl.

It's early and I'm feeling very charitable. Can you tell?

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's fair to compare Molly and Bella in order to put Molly's parenting skills in perspective. That would be like saying that Arthur is a fabulous father... compared to Lord Voldemort. Bella and Voldie are both crazy as a sack of drunk monkeys. The only other mother in the series that we can compare her to is Petunia. We haven't really seen any other examples of motherhood. They are entirely (Mrs. Granger) or primarily ('Cissy') absent, or else just die when their kids are infants.

I judge Molly only through her own words and actions. Molly shrieks at her kids and husband all of the time. (It would be interesting to go back through the series and compare the number of times she shrieked vs. talked normally to her kids.) She fawns over one kid who fits her ideal, and constantly compares the others to him which just makes all of them miserable. She gushes on and on about celebrities but then chastises her own 11 year old daughter for doing the same thingand mind you, Molly is Ginny's only frame of reference in that family for being female. She is passively or even overtly horrible towards the series' 'token' Muggleborn kid, Hermione. At times (the easter egg incident), Molly's pettiness seems motivated by her extraordinary interest in Harry (jealousy?). Her two eldest kids left the *country,* her next eldest is an angry, disliked family outcast, her next two dropped out of school and are greedy, horrible people, she inflicts demeaning, shoddy clothes and food on her youngest son, who constantly whines about being poor, and her daughter has turned into a smart-mouthed, aggressive terror of a teen. She henpecks the bejeezus out of her mealy-mouthed, idiot of a husband. She fawns over, and openly shows favoritism towards a 'celebrity' orphan boy who is not her own child.

Argh! I guess Molly is my shadow character! Ginny I don't actually mind at all. She is a splendid 'angry little brat' of a teen. She still has time to balance out her behavior and curb all of her angry, acting out nonsense. (Or possibly not. I truly do see her possession by Voldemort as being akin to child abuse, and child abuse victims are often screwed up for their whole life. Right now, Ginny is actually acting exactly as I would expect her to act, given what happened to her, and how she was raised by her only female role model -- Molly.) But Molly? Molly is a grown up adult and ought to know better.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

You do make a good case for Molly's abhorent behavior! I have to agree. Yet, her worst fear is for her family to die, one by one. She probably thinks she's doing a bang-up job. Maybe her mother and only role model was the same?

Yeah, can't really, fairly, compare Molly and Bella. Bella *thinks* she knows what she'd do with her kids if she had them, but she doesn't. And very few mothers actually raise their kids the way they thought they would, reality gets in the way. She's crazy enough to actually offer up her offspring to Voldemort. If she's normal enough to get in the position to have any. Yes, I do remember What's-his-name, her second-or-third-to-LV husband. But would she risk not being in the middle of the action by going through a pregnancy?

Molly and Petunia? Shadows of each other where Harry's concerned? Opposites, anyway. I did think it was awful of Molly to go fawning over Harry when she was yelling at her kids. Sometimes, I wonder why Ron puts up with Harry, with all that baggage going on with his mum.

I like Ginny, but I don't like whatever it is that has taken over that name and spot in the books. I suppose it is Ginny, getting worse and worse after CoS, and her brothers, and her mother as you make your case. She may be acting out, but it's interesting to note that it's not on her own volition, it was Hermione's plan. There's a lot to dig through on Ginny, and the worse she gets, the more Sue-ish she gets, the more I wonder. And the more I wonder, the more she's taking second spot next to Snape as my personal Most Interesting Character.

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

I like (perhaps appreciate is a better word) Ginny, too, precisely because it is so interesting to me to try to figure out how she when from Point A (sweet, thoughtful, kind) to Point B (aggressive, mouthy, popular, but oft-times mean). Is it just a phase, like Harry's Capslock of Rage phase in the last book, or is this really who Ginny is growing up to be? What is really going on inside her head? I find her far more interesting than Hermione or Ron, and in some ways even more interesting than Harry.

A couple of things really fascinate me about Ginny Weasley. She is an excellent mimic, she lies really well, and she is determined not to be 'left behind' even if she is too young/otherwise not quite ready. Just how much of her behavior is pretense and lies? How much of her behavior is genuine, and how much is she putting on whatever 'face' she needs to get what she wants. Hard to say. I love characters like this because they are tricky. You can't really predict what they are going to do.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Mimic, liar, and agressive (doesn't want to be left behind). Yup, that's our current Ginny. In fact, in light of that, I've suggested, and had my elder daughter shoot me down, that Ginny got a bit more in the Riddle exchange than just a near-death experience. Don't those traits belong in Slytherin House? It isn't the journey, but the ends, that justify the means.

Of course, being the ultimate Little Sister could have sparked a *normal* desire not to be left behind. Supposedly she has wanted to go to Hogwarts since Bill went, back when she was probably still in the WW's version of Pull-Ups. But, it seems to go beyond that, and completely without canon to boot. She acquits herself well at the Ministry, yet Harry's decided she's in a better position if he breaks it off??? Even sweet, thoughtful, kind Ginny would get upset over that. It's Ginny Sue's reaction to it that I wonder about.

How much of her behavior is genuine, and how much is she putting on whatever 'face' she needs to get what she wants.

Absolutely. From what was said, I'd say a good portion of her dating other guys, flirting around, being the outspoken Wonder Witch, only comes from following Hermione's advice. She was completely being herself when she quietly pined over Harry, so obviously she must change. That she did a good enough job to convince the people who know her, shows her lying abilities. But, I really don't think it's real.

So, what is she going to do? Go back to pretending that it doesn't really matter that Harry left her for his hunt? Get angry and toss a Bat-Bogey in his direction? Find another guy to get Harry's interest sparking again? Lose the luster in her hair and mope around like Tonks? Get fat and start cooking for the Order so she might be around wherever Headquarters is next book so she can get a glimpse of her once and future love? Date Draco? Date Voldemort? Date Minerva? Go to EuroDisney?

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

So, what is she going to do?

She'll follow him, and he'll say something heroic and noble about wanting to protect her, and she'll say something gutsy and tough about being an independent woman who wants to get Voldemort because she believes in the cause and because of the CoS experience, and she's not a little girl anymore, damn it! And he'll be paternal and allow her, and she'll stomp off and while he's fighting DEs, he'll glance over and see her whooping ass.
Wait.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Okay, I guess EuroDisney's for the honeymoon?

All of that, I can believe at this point. But I think the Ginny we briefly saw in PS/SS would have been more gentle than 'gutsy and tough', or touchy, than this. My own personal opinion is that she would follow him, no matter what sort of personality she was given, because I do think that's a core part of her personality. That's why she was Sorted into Gryffindor. Or she'll 'follow' by coming from another direction. She won't avoid the confrontation and sit home by the fire swooning.

I think it's the change from what we were led to expect in the earlier books, and the hoyden we find in the later books, that draws me like someone staring at an ear where a nose ought to be. The creature is still recognizable as human, as Ginny is still the core brave girl, but there's something askew.

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

Mimic, liar, and agressive (doesn't want to be left behind). Yup, that's our current Ginny. In fact, in light of that, I've suggested, and had my elder daughter shoot me down, that Ginny got a bit more in the Riddle exchange than just a near-death experience. Don't those traits belong in Slytherin House?

I don't see these traits as 'belonging' to Slytherine House; on the contrary, they seem to be very 'Gryffindor.' The Slyth idea revolves around ambition, true, but not aggression or lying. If anything, the Slyths would be good at persuasion and negotiating and diplomacy. Gryffindor House is the house of aggressive warrior types. Ginny fits in perfectly.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Now, I see Ginny more as not the brave/foolhardy Gryffindor when she's in New!Ginny mode. We've seen Harry, Ron and Hermione doing the same sorts of things, and the whole feel of the scene is different. At least, to me. Ginny changing her entire personality to get a guy is the ends justifying the means in a sleeker way.

I'm not suggesting that the Sorting Hat got it wrong. So, yeah, those traits aren't Slytherin in the basic sense of the word, they can go to any of the houses. It's the way they're applied that tailors them to the house. And I think that when Ginny puts on her act, she comes off more as a Slytherin-thinking, rather than a Gryffindor-thinking, character.

She definitely is Gryffindor at the MoM. And maybe that's another reason that I personally see her as a curious character. She slips from one house to the other as her goal shifts. IMO, of course. She's mutable.

But, everyone has traits from all the houses. It's just the way they use them, and which comes out on top. DDM!Snape is very brave. But I wouldn't accuse him of being a closet Gryffindor. Harry accessed his Slytherin side in HBP, but he's still Gryffindor. Dumbledore is old enough, wise enough, and educated enough to display each house's traits at one point or another. I tend to see elaborate, yearlong plans to 'trap' a particular boyfriend as being more Slytherin Ambitious than Gryffindor Courageous due to the clandestine nature of those plans.

[strangemuses.livejournal.com]

I do think that Ginny is putting on an act; the problem is, I can't tell when she is acting and/or lying, and when she is not. I do think that her reaction(s) to the way that Harry dumped her were all genuine, from her initial anger to her subsequent 'cool' cover up. Beyond that, I cannot truly tell how much of her current behavior is genuine, how much is an act, how much to write off as just a phase she is in, and how much may have been her 'real' personality all along.

Abstractly, that is one of the things about her that fascinates me so much. There is a whole lot going on inside of her head that we are not privy too. I don't think that we can take all of her behavior at face value, but I cannot tell where to draw the line because JKR has not made us privy to Ginny's thoughts. She hasn't made us privy to any of these people's thoughts except for Harry's. Likely, she will never let us be privy to anyone's thoughts, nor will she ever -- as author -- pass a moral judgment about anything that happens. This used to bother me intensely about this series, but now it is the thing that I respect the most about JKR's writing. She has presented her readers with a morally muddy, murky (very scary) world populated by morally ambiguous, highly flawed people... and then left it entirely up to the readers to draw their own conclusions about *everything* and *everyone.*

That's why... (to bring this full circle back to the original topic post) it's perfectly okay for a reader to say, "I hate character X! I wish people would stop trying to tell me that character X is 'good' or justify his/her behavior so that I will like her/him." Just as in the real world, we *don't* know what's going on inside of these peoples' heads to make them act the way that they do. We can only judge them by their words and deeds. We shouldn't be swayed by whether or not Harry likes/dislikes someone. We shouldn't overly romanticism them and turn our own favorite characters into insufferably noble Byronic heroes. I'm beginning to think that this is even why she revealed that Tom Riddle was a complete, psychotic nutjob even as a child. She didn't want readers to ever be able think that they understand (or can justify) who he is and what he has done. We just need to take him at face value and assess his actions, not try to crawl inside his head and psychoanalyze him, or hold any romaticized ideas about him.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Yeah. What you say.

I can't tell when she's lying, or etc. either. Except when it's obvious, as it has been a couple of times (more or less). I do think it isn't her usual personality if someone outside of herself has suggested it. Maybe a direction the character *might* take or she'd be less likely to use it? I didn't take Psychology, and I haven't signed up for it, either.

JKR's writing is good enough to have us defending or sparing no mercy for certain characters as if they were our real friends or foes. Which is pretty good. I haven't defended the Bobbsey Twins like that, and I ate their series for breakfast, lunch and dinner when I was a kid. Now, I've got grandkids and I get completely stunned over Ginny's (to me) OOC behavior. She does come off as obnoxious in the later books. I could put that down to the strain of being the Ginny she thinks Harry wants to see, but that totally negates Rowling's role. She's the Goddess of the piece, the Creatrix. Ginny doesn't do anything at all.

But, that takes all the fun out of it... sometimes. I do like the HP series! And, I suppose, grudgingly, that maybe she's got to do shorthand at some point because the series is supposed to end in one more book and there are bigger fish to fry than Ginny.

Which leaves me with the mental image of Voldemort on a bed of parsley with lemon and tartar sauce.

[cs-luis.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's precisely why I can't stand Molly most of the time! She has her moments, but by and large she's unpalatable.