Happy birthday [livejournal.com profile] westmoon!!

I've been following a rather long discussion about Harry's getting special treatment in the books, and have something to say about it (pause for expressions of shock). It has gotten into a good area, I think, which is the idea of people resenting special treatment regardless of the reason for it. Think, for instance, about children with serious diseases and their siblings. I believe it's generally understood that siblings can feel jealous of the attention paid to the sick child, and that these feelings should be addressed and not just dismissed by saying the child should feel lucky he doesn't have a disease. Of course the child doesn't want to feel sick; but the jealousy speaks to an anxiety about how he's felt about by his parents or whatever.

So that led me to realize the three characters in HP canon who get the most focused on Harry's special treatment are all characters with issues about themselves not being special--or worse. It's not about Harry, really--Harry could be carried to class by Veelas every day and it wouldn't bother them as much if they were happy in themselves, but as it is they just can't not let it bother them. If you look at what happens to these characters in canon their experience seem to all speak to this same issue. We're not inside their heads hearing about how this is an issue, but JKR is constantly thinking up new things to happen to them that play on it where they're not good enough or don't triumph. I think that's as close as she can come to telling us this is an issue.



Ron, Draco and Snape

The three characters I'm thinking of are all the ones who have mocked Harry for being an attention-whore. (There is perhaps one more, Zacharias Smith, but I don't think we've seen enough of Zach to speak about whether this is his real issue with Harry or what his real issues are.)
Ron

The whole fight in GoF turns on Ron resenting Harry's once again being in the spotlight. Once he's angry at Harry it's surprising how much Ron sounds like Snape or Draco. This may actually slip by people in terms of significance because we expect people who dislike Harry sounding like those two, since they are the people who dislike Harry. But really Ron could have criticized something completely different about Harry. If Hermione was angry at Harry I doubt she'd go that route. But Ron shows that he actually, underneath, identifies with Snape and Malfoy on some level, even if he'd never agree with them on principle. Ron's, "I guess you have to get up early for a photo call," is totally something Snape would say.

And what is Ron's role in canon except to be not special himself? He's overshadowed by all of his brothers, by Hermione, by Harry, by his little sister. In the past people often hoped Ron's ability to play chess would be important, imo, in an attempt to even out the Trio in terms of special-ness, but it really isn't important. He's not a genius at chess either, he just plays pretty well. In PS Rowling makes that figure into the climax, but many things in PS I suspect are made to stand-alone. Had the series ended there it would be right to give all the students a prize-PS is the only story that gives Neville a really full arc as well.

In later books Ron feels he doesn't belong on the Quidditch team, has dress robes that suggest to him he doesn't belong at the ball, everything he owns is "rubbish." He spends a year without a working wand, making him rather unfit for school. Sometimes he mutters about the advantages Harry has that he takes for granted: "Must be nice to have so much gold you don't notice when a pocketful of galleons goes missing."
It seems pretty clear that Ron sees *himself* as being inadequate, which is partially why he deals so clumsily with times he's given attention. Harry notes how often Ron re-tells the story of Sirius' attack in PoA, or plays up his role in the Second Task, or re-lives the Quidditch game where he played well. He's insecure even about accepting attention he does get. He behaves badly all around with Lavender and seems quickly cowed into disavowing his status as Prefect (it's like Percy). Not only does Ron feel like he lacks the important talents (those like Harry and the twins and Ginny have), he has to distance himself from anything that might be like Percy. (I'm not talking about Percy the disciplinarian, here, but Percy's being a good assistant, being loyal, sometimes being uncomfortable with things the Twins see as fun or their due, etc.) He really doesn't seem to have a good sense of himself except in the negative--he's not Harry, Hermione, the twins, Ginny, Charlie or Bill. He fears being Percy, so is sensitive to anything they have in common.

Hermione says something like this to Harry in GoF, trying to get him to see where Ron is coming from. Harry never acknowledges Ron's problems and feels the fight is concluded when Ron apologizes for saying he put his own name in the Goblet and goes back to just supporting him all the time. He seems to then assume that Ron couldn't have meant any of the things he said when he was angry.

Ron's personal challenge stories are all about this. He has to succeed at Quidditch on his own, his friends and family can't hide their lack of faith in his talents. Ron even almost quits. I think that's why, as funny as it is, it's important for Ron to go over and over it when he wins a game, making the whole experience real.

Draco
Draco's history in canon is a series of dramatic failures. He begins the series being rejected by Harry, told he isn't the right sort to be Harry's friend. He's a good Quidditch player, but not good enough to beat Harry. A good student, but not good enough to beat Hermione. He has some brilliant plans, but they never work even when they might have. The times he starts getting attention it's usually because of Harry--he's a moon to Harry's son (oops--as pointed out to me, that would be moon to Harry's sun I meant!), only reflecting light. He's happy when Harry is unhappy, rather than being happy because he has genuine reason to be so. He is shown favor by Snape, but Snape is more focused on Harry than Draco, even if it's negatively. Draco also uses Umbridge's vendetta against Harry to his advantage, but again Umbridge is all about Harry and Draco is just trying to use that to gain something for himself. He talks about his father as if his opinion is most important, yet the one time they're together Lucius is criticizing him and ignoring him, telling him he's not good enough. (And what's Draco prattling about but how Harry is always good enough--he's better than good enough, why?) It's interesting that Draco, like Ron, is made Prefect, though again Hermione seems to judge both of them as inferior at the job.

I like that Draco also points out all of Harry's time in the infirmary ("It's been a week without a trip there-that's a personal record for you, isn't it?") because Draco of course also spends time in the hospital wing, often without sympathy from our pov characters. He makes a big deal of his injury in PoA which partially just bugs Harry but I think also may suggest he's the kind of kid who associates injury and illness with a way to get affection (with his mother, I don't doubt it). He may see Harry's maladies the same way. He also teases Harry for being crazy pretty often when, uh, I tend to see Draco walking that special line himself. (Not that he's really mad, but let's just say there's times I think he's more at risk for brain fever than most-I think Elkins was right on with her Draco the Nutter essay.) Draco's trying to be blasé about his injury in PoA is also a play for attention, and Harry's attitude about his own injuries may come off the same way to Draco.

This comes to a head with his task in HBP. Harry, like Draco, has been targeted for death by Voldemort. But Voldemort targets Harry because Harry is a threat, he has a power he knows not, he is the one who can defeat him. There's an implied respect in Voldemort's targeting of Harry, and when Voldemort tries to pretend otherwise (by setting up the duel in GoF) naturally it's his downfall. Draco's situation is exactly the opposite. His job in HBP is to do the one thing he can be counted on to do: fail. Voldemort isn't giving him a chance to prove himself; he's setting him up and banking on his being inept.
Think of the implications of that. Not only is Draco not seen as especially capable by his Dark Lord, he's so expendable Voldemort will kill him as a message to Lucius. Voldemort has good reason to think Draco would become a DE himself when he got older, but to Voldemort he's no loss at all. Voldemort may not be intentionally giving Draco a chance to prove himself, but this is what Draco makes the task into. I think his desperation comes from that--this is a loser seeing one chance to not be a loser. There's too much at stake to depend on Snape or hide behind his mother. He *must* prove himself as having some worth, some value in the world, even if he has to prove it by being to do something bad.

Dumbledore seems to get this, which is why he keeps praising Draco's accomplishments in the Tower. He knows Draco must see his offer as being made to a place of strength, not as a lifeline to save him. He's trying to assure Draco that he has achieved victory finally; he did what he set out to do--not kill Dumbledore but prove that he could bring about circumstances where all he had to do was choose to do it and it would be done. He exceeded expectations for the one time in his life. That, I think, has become the most important thing to Draco, which is a lot better than wanting to please Voldemort.

So you can see Draco's personal test story is a variation on Ron's fitted more to his personality. Ron deals with his feelings of inferiority by making sad sack comments now and then. Draco goes on the offensive and puts other people down as being inferior. Those are both pretty common ways of dealing with this kind of insecurity, I think.

Snape
And then there's Snape. With Snape there are some big mysteries about the character, of course, that make it impossible to talk about him with the same perspective as the two boys, but still throughout canon Snape is all about the little humiliations and rejection. He's always passed over for DADA and it seems to annoy him when Umbridge brings it up (he may not know about the curse); the whole school knows about it. His team never wins, and he is often is described as forcing a smile in defeat. He's furious at not getting his Order of Merlin in PoA. Many people see this as childish and it is, but it does indicate that Snape is desperate for a medal like this--why? Many people feel this goes against the stereotype of the super cool spy they see as Snape. To me it seems like a clear sign that Snape needs some form of outside validation for himself. When the medal is snatched away almost as a joke, with Dumbledore seeming to find it amusing, it's another sign that Snape is not "good enough" to ever really be admired.

In HBP Harry uses Snape's old textbook to become a Potions star and yet Slughorn keeps going on and on about Lily with barely a mention of Snape. I think once he says, "Even Severus..." and is cut off. That, to me, is significant. Obviously Snape was a fantastic Potions student, yet his teacher remembers Lily as being the star and now Harry. Snape's own accomplishments never come up or seem to pale in comparison, even though we know that's not true. Slughorn quite possibly is more impressed by Snape's genius when it's attributed to Harry, perhaps because of Harry's other attributes.

In CoS Snape "can't hide his smile" when ickle!Draco says he'd make a great headmaster--I always felt affection for Snape there, because I took that moment as exactly what it looks like, that he *likes* having this little kid earnestly tell him he's the best teacher and should be headmaster. Snape feels violated when Harry rifles through his most embarrassing memory, sees it as Harry thinking he has the right to do that and assuming Harry laughed at him just like his father did. Snape also gets very defensive when Fake!Moody suggests Dumbledore doesn't trust him; Snape seems to see that trust as a mark of distinction as well.
And then, of course, there's that Prank. We don't know enough about it to know what really happened, but we do know that Snape seems furious at hearing it described as the time James heroically saved his life. We know he calls it attempted murder and Remus calls it a stupid joke. So from Snape's pov, especially taken in conjunction with his "worst memory" involving his being humiliated at the hands of the same people, plus the way he talks about Harry, it seems like he does to harbor the impression that the Marauders thought they were "better" than he was and everyone agreed. Snape really does seem to have this sense that other people get to get away with stuff because they're so great. That Snape turns around and favors his own kids is a lot like Draco grabbing a place for himself with Umbridge. It's about saying, "Ha ha, Potter. I'll bet it must kill you to not be special now! I'll cut you down to size!"

I mean, Snape seems to arrive at his first class with a very clear idea of what Harry's attitude is, like he knows how celebrities behave and how they think they're better than everyone. That's based on James, yes, but I think more importantly it's based on how he felt just seeing James walk around being loved and having one triumph after another-and he's seen that with Harry being the center of attention. If Snape was in love with Lily he probably would have good reason to think that whatever we'll hear about Saint Lily only seeing the beauty of people on the inside, she wasn't attracted to Snape because he was physically repulsive while James was cute and charismatic.

Snape also seems to go more the Draco route in building himself up as better than others-he gave himself a ridiculous nickname in school that's all about grandiosity: the Half-Blood Prince, as opposed to the jokier MWPP nicknames. He bought into Pureblood ideology, which assures Purebloods of always having a group of people who are inferior. This is something that seems to continue to baffle a lot of fans, who still insist that Snape must have been an outcast in Slytherin and hates all the kids who are in the house now, and never was a real DE, because they think being a half-blood means you can't have blood-prejudice.
So yeah, these three characters--they're very different in exactly where they get their insecurity and what form it takes, but I do think that each one of them is clearly shown having to struggle for something like basic personal worth and this is why they see Harry as just walking around being not *that* special with everyone throwing themselves at him. To a certain extent they're right, of course. He did just get famous for lying in a cradle and not dying. But still I don't think it's a coincidence that these three characters who seem to struggle with resentment are so constantly shown also having to struggle with failure and being ignored and not being good enough.

To throw in one more contrast, look at Neville who seems to be the exact opposite. One can take the view that Neville is a healthier person who doesn't hold Harry's fame against him and to an extent I think that's true. But Neville has also embraced his alleged inadequacy as part of himself in a different way, I think. I mean, perhaps he's a bit like Harry in that Harry was raised by people who always told him he was awful. He was so awful he was special, and Harry defined himself against that and doesn't have too many problems with himself as not being adequate as a human being. He's bothered by Draco most when he's in a position where he does feel he doesn't belong--in the robe shop, when he's first put in the Tournament. But he seems comfortable with himself as a person. Neville maybe went through his own form of that, though I can't quite say how he views himself. One could probably do a healthy and an unhealthy reading on Neville's view of Harry.
Tags:

From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com


This is really not a thinking comment, but even though I'm all sympathetic towards Ron & Draco, I feel like that often-- the sudden change is that now I feel I wanna give Snape a cuddle o_0 o_0

I also always thought Snape's need for recognition and admiration, his dedication to Dumbledore, were really one of the most central & telling things about him. It really doesn't suit him at all, to be entirely undercover where -no one- knows his true sacrifice, so perhaps he will crack & actually tell Harry the truth himself~:)) I also think the 'Half-blood Prince' thing is so cute & transparent of Snape, compared to Prongs!James & Padfoot!Sirius, who obviously viewed each other with affection, whereas Snape never aimed for cuteness and affection-- 'since I won't be loved, I'll be feared/respected', that sort of thing. He's really kind of cute <3<3<3 Hee!
ext_6866: (Totem)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Ha--you can't really be in the HP fandom if you don't want to hug Snape, really.

Half-Blood Prince--seriously, how can you not laugh at the guy? I wonder if he had drawings of his alter ego, the royal super hero.

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ext_2023: (black love by wildmusing f. artdungeon)

From: [identity profile] etrangere.livejournal.com


Wonderful essay, as ever. I'm quite amused at your vision of the Snape fans, though i'm sure there's lots of them as you picture them out there too ^^

Somehow it also made me think of Regulus and Percy as I see them. Not in relation with Harry, of course, but the whole resentment over the attention given to their brother(s) and acting in opposite because of that is something I associate with both those characters.

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From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com - Date: 2006-01-08 02:46 am (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] muggle-prof.livejournal.com


Excellent analysis. (and at the moment I have nothing insightful to add, so I'll slink away and thingk...)
ext_6866: (ROTK)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks--especially for slogging through that with the messed up formatting!

From: [identity profile] kaskait.livejournal.com


I was one of the Ron fans who thought his chess skills were going to be important. But after 6 books, I've given up that ghost. I also thought that Ron's low self esteem would create a bigger break between the group. He does seem to be pulling away from Harry and Hermione a bit in OOTP and HBP. But that won't be the case either, I suppose. Ron is there just to be the wizard everyman.

Anyway, this is a fantastic essay.
ext_6866: (Trio)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I'm glad you liked it! I totally understand expecting the chess thing to become important. Ron is probably my favorite member of the Trio and you can't help but notice how he rarely if ever gets a break. It's hard given that Harry and Hermione are just ridiculously talented. Every book has them far ahead of everyone in some way.

I like Everyman!Ron--in a way I think he's more heroic to e because of that. I sort of wish he'd form some other friends so he's not always overshadowed. But I doubt that will hapen in one book.

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From: [identity profile] aubrem.livejournal.com


The Half-Blood Prince title confuses me. Why does he play up the half bloodedness of his heritage? Wouldn't he try to forget it?

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From: [identity profile] jollityfarm.livejournal.com


I always love to read your essays (even if I don't respond - don't take that personally, I just don't always know what to say) and I particularly like this one. I have always seen Severus Snape as someone who would want to be admired by all and sundry and feels short-changed because he wasn't. Perhaps he harbours thoughts that he "deserves better" or that he is "too big for this place" or whatever. I think that to see other people get praised, perhaps for what seems like no good reason, while he is ignored must have bothered him a lot throughout his life. Being a Death Eater, as many would agree, would have perhaps been the first time he could have been part of something. I don't think he belonged to many groups when he was at school. He probably only hung around the edges of any gangs and he doesn't seem like he would have latched onto religion (which makes it sound like I'm comparing religion to Death Eating - perhaps it just depends which religion you belong to ;D ) so to be part of this big sexy gang and to have apparently risen to the proud status of being Voldemort's favourite, so Narcissa says, that could fair turn a boy's head. If he was still in with the Death Eaters and still held his position with them over his position with the "right" side, it'd be because they gave him more of that recognition, status and respect than he ever felt he got anywhere else. Which is probably obvious, but it adds a little depth to the tired "Is he properly evil or not?" argument.

If I had been in school with Harry, I probably wouldn't have liked him either. My state of mind while I was at school wouldn't have helped matters. I could perhaps say more here, but I'm tired and can't think what. Perhaps in the morning :)
ext_6866: (Watching and waiting)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I can't believe most people in the school think Harry "seems nice" from a distance. Surely he's got a rep for being totally stuck up? I mean, he's always the center of attention yet knows no one in his class...

But yeah, I'd so love to know just how Snape got into the DEs. Lucius is such a screw up, yet Sirius calls Snape his lapdog. Did Lucius seem really cool to Snape and still seem that way even when he's fallen? (Sort of like the Lucius in your fic, whom I loved--that relationship makes a lot of sense to me).

You can't help but notice that Snape seems to have to choose not only between Voldemort's side and Dumbledore's, but between respect and total disgust. Being in the OotP must feel like being at the Slug Club or something with Sirius and his pals always making comments about how nobody really wants Snape there. Oh yeah, this is a guy who needs some basic respect here.

From: [identity profile] chocolatepot.livejournal.com


Very interesting and balanced. I liked it! *fails to say anything constructive, as usual*

From: [identity profile] chocolatepot.livejournal.com


To be slightly constructive: I always thought that Ron's 1337 chess skills would be important again -- I'm still holding out hope for book seven, though I'm not going to be annoyed if they don't come up. But there's that parallel that could come up, as HBP in some ways paralleled CoS, that leads me to expect some chess-playing (and Neville coming along, but that's for a different meta).

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From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com - Date: 2006-01-08 04:55 pm (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] static-pixie.livejournal.com


Neville! I think he's one step ahead of all the rest, actually, and that Draco's about to take it, what with his not being able to kill Dumbledore (dunno about Ron, though, because although he feels inadequate, he has yet to really have it shoved up in his face like that beyond Quidditch, which he improved at); but I can't say if this is because Neville is just Neville and has this innate sense of serenity, or whether it's because he's had to accept such a horrible situation for so long with both his parents. Maybe it's a bit of both, because even at the beginning of the series, you can see that he's able to take genuine pleasure out of just having his toad back, he doesn't sit and wallow in the embarrassment of having lost it in the first place. It's this odd juxtaposition to Neville's character that you see echoed, oddly enough, the most in Draco's. Although you think he measures himself completely by the way authority figures see him (Gran, his uncle Algie), his heart really directs him too much for this to be true. He doesn't want to take NEWT Charms in book six because his Gran thinks it's soft, but he takes real pride in being so good at Herbology, even though it's not considered a very important class by a lot of people. And the spark of passion he demonstrates in the DA right after Bellatrix escapes can't really be for his gran or even for his parents, although they're a factor; it's all him, Neville is the one who wants to beat Bellatrix. And in that way he's actually a step beyond Harry, who realizes in the sixth book that that's why he's got to take Voldemort down.

It's a good take on mediocrity, actually; give up, not because you're weak, but because you're strengths lie in other areas, although I don't think Neville thinks of it that way. To try and get inside his head...it's all just very simple, I think. You're right, he's just Neville, and he doesn't try to be anyone else because he thinks he's so low down on the food chain that no one really notices him enough for it to matter, except when he messes up, but he's used to that anyway. So he may as well just be his clumsy, inadequate self and go whichever way his heart leads him
.
ext_6866: (Neville Magpie.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Yeah, the thing with Neville is that I do see his openly identifying himself with his failures as being a form of protection. What terrified him about Snape early on, I suspect, was that Snape never let him do that (that and he was mean to him). Neville, I think, probably has the attitude that he's admitted he can't do it, so leave him alone, but Snape just keeps trying to force him, which is a guarantee that Neville will do it wrong.

His grandmother is maybe similar, plus she's always telling him to be like his dad. She undercuts him, even not giving him his own wand. But Neville, in his quiet way, finds the things that interest him and that seems to be enough. Not to mention at times his family does seem to be genuinely supportive--they give good, appropriate gifts, the opposite of the Dursleys.

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From: [identity profile] velvetcandy.livejournal.com


Great essay, as usual. Ron is definitely my favorite of the Trio because he's not perfect. You have to really appreciate how difficult it must be for him to be Harry's BF (and there's really no competing with Harry's status, I don't care who you are) and care about Hermione, who's destined for intellectual greatness. It would be hard for anyone in that circumstance to not feel inadequate even with the highest of self-esteem. I'm not sure that his chess/strategy skills will really matter in the end, but regardless, his role is clearly Hero Support.

Draco tries so hard, and is really pretty clever, but still fails. I think he fails many times simply because Harry is favored, but that could just be Draco-prejudice talking.

And you're spot on with Snape. For whatever reason, he needs to feel special and he needs recognition for what he's done. I expect him to not only tell Harry everything he's done, but anyone else who will listen is he lives to have the chance.

As I said, wonderful. I'm off to read Draco the Nutter.
ext_6866: (Hmmmm..)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Check out the other essays on that site. It includes one of the most famous fandom essays, "Draco Malfoy is Ever So Lame." I was just re-reading it yesterday and it's great in retrospect.

Ron is really just amazing in what he puts up with. If he hadn't learn to expect nothing at home I don't think he'd be able to stand it. And thinking about it now, I think it's interesting that Ron and Percy are sometimes connected to each other in the ways I mentioned in the essay (I believe Percy is the one who taught him to play chess) and Percy is the one family member who doesn't like Harry and has basically been replaced by him.

From: [identity profile] t0ra-chan.livejournal.com


Ah, another wonderful essay. I really like reading those. Anyway, I also have something to add.

Ron
Count me among those who thought that Ron's chess skills would be important. But I gave up on that in OotP and hoped that maybe the contact with the brains would have some kind of effect. Instead all he gets his physical damage (the only one of the sextet, I might add), that no one cares about. The whole 'I'm tall too and also have scars' exchange in HBP was so painful to read. No wonder he went for Lavender. Finally someone was impressed by him, finally someone gave him some (positive) attention without any mind games attached.

Snape
I fully agree with [livejournal.com profile] jollityfarm about how Snape was desperate for some attention in school. It must have hurt to be so talented in Potions and the Dark Arts and be either ignored or hated for it. Slughorn, who was Head of Slytherin, favored the pretty muggle-born Gryffindor, when I'm pretty sure that Snape was better than her, simply because she looked like she was going to be more successful later on. Well, we all know what she accomplished in the end: married James, gave birth and died. Big whoop. We don't even know what kind of jobs Harry's parents had, if they even had any at all and didn't just live off James fortune.
And his talent in the Dark Arts was one of the reasons MWPP decided to torment him and the Dark Arts are generally considered bad and evil. No wonder he must have joined the Death Eaters, where his talents where finally appreciated
ext_6866: (Dances with magpies)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Mlj user="mike_smith"> did a great sum-up of Ron in his read of HBP where he basically said that Ron gets treated so many different ways he doesn't know who he is: at home he's treated like a baby, at school guys treat him as sort of an affable loser, but then there are these girls who are attracted to the better qualities they see in him. JKR keeps him bouncing back and forth between those things so he never knows which end is up.

It's funny because I think many of us girls see him through the lense of the girls in canon--we see his better qualities and want them to win out so everyone can acknowledge them, only they never seem to do that!

And ITA on James and Lily. Yeah, we hear they defied the Dark Lord, but all I'm seeing is a young couple who had a baby and died. Big whoop. Even James' animagus form, to me, suggests that he's just a majestic sacrifice. Not that I'd want to tangle with a full grown stag myself, but I just do associate them with being prey.

From: [identity profile] tinderblast.livejournal.com


I just saw Harry could be carried to class by Veelas every day and just started laughing ... :D I'd momentarily confused grindylowes and veelas, and was imagining Harry ona big red cushion with pinchy little wet things underneath him, and was just abuot crying with laughter ...
ext_6866: (I'm up here!)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


LOL! And he'd be dying of embarassment the whole time and Draco would never stop imitating it.

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From: [identity profile] tinderblast.livejournal.com - Date: 2006-01-09 12:31 pm (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] seductivedark.livejournal.com


I love your stuff. You always make a side trip through a back door I never really noticed. And the odd thing on this topic is, I used that same back door all through school.

I did get the idea, though, that Snape felt underappreciated. A while back, I placed him as the Good Son in the story of the Prodigal. The one who followed the rules, the one who stayed at home, the one who did what his father always wanted... Then here comes little bro home from disgracing the family all over the countryside, sleeping with pigs, unworthy and proclaiming himself as such, and he gets the fatted calf. Harry & Co. can break the rules and get Dumbledore's affection, they even get points for bad behavior. James & Co. nearly get him killed. The incident is hushed up and Snape is asked (required?) to keep it quiet. I see quite a few things in canon which look like Dumbledore uses Snape gladly, but doesn't give him the emotional stroking he needs. When he goes off at the end of GoF being a prime example. DD lets Harry see that he's worried, but the face he shows Snape is the master ordering the servant with no qualms. And the late awarding of house points at the end of PS/SS must have come off as a personal affront to Snape, not just to the house as a whole.

A lot of this could be taken as Snape misunderstanding, as in the leaving scene after GoF. Dumbledore is concerned, but Snape doesn't see it. To him, I could see, he's just a dog to kick around, a loyal pet who will always return no matter what the treatment.

And, what about that half-overheard conversation between DD and Snape in the forest in HBP? What does Dumbledore take for granted? What doesn't he understand? The best suggestion I've heard, one that satisfies *me*, is that Dumbledore doesn't appreciate the danger and the stress Snape is under in going back to LV. He has to constantly maintain a mind block, and make it impossible to detect. His feelings are held in close rein, which is difficult for anybody on a regular basis. Yet, it doesn't matter to DD. We understand, as readers, that the position of spy is extremely important to the cause, and that's the way DD has to look at things. But to someone who has at this point been playing the two-handed match for two active years now, a breaking point has to come. And Dumbledore, who is divided between at least two spies (Snape, and Lupin with the werewolves), trying to tutor Harry, apparently knows he's dying and there isn't much time for him to get his ducks in a row, just can't allow the time for necessary stroking.

Points well taken on Ron and Draco. I can identify with the strain of always being second best. My best friend through jr. high was just a tad smarter than me, she always had first chair in music while I had second (I got first once, and it was great!), she was good at math while I sucked, she was the Perfect Student, a real Hermione, down to the frizzy hair. While I had been Hermione before I met up with her, where being smart wasn't as important as being popular. I had just got my place down when I changed schools.

And, my perfect friend had her own issues. She strove to be perfect in school for the lost cause of gaining her parents' approval while they were busy trying to make her sister's life a bit more enjoyable. The sister had juvenile diabetes, which at the time was recognized as a death sentence by the time the child turned 18. With medical advances, the sister is still alive, though she has lost a leg and takes dialysis twice a week, and is insufferable because of all the favoritism shown her while she was young. Ironic, that the child they should be most proud of, succumbed briefly to the Dark Side herself and did a stint in prison just because someone valued her and she did all she could to 'help' them. They of course were just using her smarts to get what they needed, but she couldn't tell that at the time.

Great essay! It's got me going on and on.
ext_6866: (Blah blah blah blah blah)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Oh, I can totally see Snape seeing himself as The Good Son. I remember way back before OotP I described the way I thought Snape saw James on FAP and people thought it was obviously wrong--and then, of course, it was made canon in OotP. I just thought look, what has James *done* exactly? He just seems to have gotten killed. We've heard he defied the Dark Lord and blah blah blah but basically Snape seems to get the crap work with no credit. People really seem to just always see James in a good light--even McGonagall talks about him mistily, despite the fact that he was a great big rule breaker.

I think Snape represents something that is very true and most kids learn it pretty early: appearances count. A person with the right kind of charm can get away with stuff. Harry doesn't think of himself this way, but he benefits from it. He clings to his detentions with Snape and McGonagall as proof that he doesn't have any advantages that way, but he does. He's not James (he's not fun enough and never makes the effort to make anyone like him) but he benefits. Actually, he's a bit more James-like in HBP, especially in Slughorn's class.

With Snape it's hard to see where he gets any emotional stroking. The Slytherins seem to adore him. He must get it from there. (And of course fandom often tries to rewrite that so Snape can prefer Gryffindors too and see his own house the same way they do.)

The story of your friend really does seem to relate. That's the thing about Harry and the Dursleys--he's never trying to please them. Take that away completely and a lot of the tragedy is gone. Harry *never* wanted to please them. He didn't just later on develop a thick skin about it.

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From: [identity profile] seductivedark.livejournal.com - Date: 2006-01-09 02:08 am (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] winningstreak.livejournal.com


Harry never acknowledges Ron's problems and feels the fight is concluded when Ron apologizes for saying he put his own name in the Goblet and goes back to just supporting him all the time. He seems to then assume that Ron couldn't have meant any of the things he said when he was angry.

Personally, Ron's devotion to Harry seems incredible. Risking your life by being around someone that endangers anyone close, Voluntarily continuing to live in the shadows of someone (even if they bear the title of best mate).
But that's Ron for you.

[DRACO]
--he's a moon to Harry's son, only reflecting light.

Ahaha for a second there I was like "wtf Harry's son?"
Funny typo.

Again, [DRACO]
He also teases Harry for being crazy pretty often when, uh, I tend to see Draco walking that special line himself.

Lol, I agree. Actually, I can't see anyone who's *not* walking that special line in the series. Everyone's either messed up or carries around their own private little hell.

[SNAPE]
(insert everything)

You know it's extremely interesting how the ppl dabbling in HP fandom and the people who don't view Snape so differently. Basically, in fandom people write analysises(? Is that the correct plural form? My English is definitely slipping) like you, and read analysis of characters, like me, and everyone gets an in-depth view of each character and why they act the way they do.
Lots of people in fandom are in love with Snape or would like to sleep with him or just give him a hug.

People who don't mess around in fandom just see a bitter ugly dude that enjoys harrassing people.
And let's face it. Nobody in the series dabbles in fandom, or cares enough about Snape to analyze him. So they also see Snape as nothing but a bitter ugly person who enjoys harassing people.

Poor Snape. Makes me want to give him a cup of tea.
ext_6866: (Moon magic)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


LOL! I left that typo in because it's just so strange.

Like I said below, if I were Ron I'd resent Harry in a huge way. It's the reason I think that Evil!Ron is completely plausible, even if I don't think it will happen. Look at all Harry takes for granted in Ron and all that Ron has given him. He doesn't only risk his life for him but Harry's moved in on his house, his family and his sister.

ITA on the fandom's view of Snape. Or maybe other characters too. It's like the way you'll hear people talk about stuff that's supposed to be "too obvious" to happen when it's not too obvious at all. It's just that fandom has overcomplicated the matter for its own amusement.

From: [identity profile] q-spade.livejournal.com


the three characters in HP canon who get the most focused on Harry's special treatment are all characters with issues about themselves not being special--or worse. It's not about Harry, really--Harry could be carried to class by Veelas every day and it wouldn't bother them as much if they were happy in themselves, but as it is they just can't not let it bother them.

Not sure if I agree that "it's not about Harry" – that suggests that if someone else were in his position, they'd be hating on that someone else just the same as they've been known to hate on Harry. Which, depending on the personality and skills of that someone else, might not be the case. We'll never know, because it's NOT "Someone Else and the..." – It's Harry Potter, with his personality, skill set and privilege. (And Harry makes his privilege over each of these fellows very painfully obvious, with the subconscious conflation that because he has more privilege, he is therefore BETTER than they are.)

It's true that if Ron, Draco and Severus were more okay with who they were, they'd be better equipped to deal with Harry and HIS flaws. They aren't, and they get pilloried for this because they don't share in the privilege he gets as the Boy Who Lived/Savior of the Wizarding World/main character of the book series. To be fair, that privilege puts Harry in some very fucked-up situations that Ron and Draco are certainly better off for not being in (The Tri-Wizarding Tournament, for example).

Severus is a different matter. Clearly he's already been through some fucked-up situations in his life, much of which has shaped his current personality and perspective. He's living the consequences of his choices, while Ron & Draco are at an age where those choices have to be made. He knows from experience that how things seem are not what they really are – he himself being a perfect example.

ext_6866: (Good point.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Ooh--you brought up something there that I'd put in my original reply on the thread but forgot to mention. Yes, with Harry everything about him gets bound up in this vague idea of personal moral superiority. Even Rowling sets up the prophecy as if it's reinforcing Harry's fame as completely arbitrary--then jumps in on her website to say that she and Dumbledore know that Neville would never have been so awesome as Harry. She just really can't allow Harry to lose.

There are other people in the school who get stuff that these characters don't, but they don't care about them--Cedric, for instance, isn't hated.

So yeah, I do think you're right in that Harry is contributing to this--it's not that they're not reacting specifically to him. With Ron this is even more obvious--look at how Harry makes it so clear that Ron can't expect anything from him in their relationship besides being allowed to bask in his glory and help him? If I were Ron I'd absolutely hate Harry by now. He's moved into his house, grabbed a better place in his family, is with his sister, the girl he likes respects him more, everyone thinks he should be Prefect. Meanwhle Ron's risking his life for him and Harry just takes it as his due and expects Ron to constantly feel sorry for him for all the things he supposedly doesn't have.

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From: [identity profile] saturniia.livejournal.com - Date: 2006-01-08 08:07 pm (UTC) - Expand

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From: [identity profile] the-bitter-word.livejournal.com - Date: 2006-01-08 10:57 pm (UTC) - Expand

From: [identity profile] westmoon.livejournal.com


Thank you!

And once again you make me realize things about Rowling's characters that go far beyond what I imagine she planned.
ext_6866: (Yum!)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Hee! That is my birthday present to you.:-) Hope you had a good one!

From: [identity profile] go-back-chief.livejournal.com


I'm trying madly to catch up here, and will read this more carefully later, but I have to say, you kind of pin-point, with this essay, why I find the Ron-Draco dynamic so interesting, and am disappointed that it generally is so over-looked in Fanon. The two of them really have potential to connect in a way neither of them possibly could with Harry, or Hermione, for that matter. I think that's the real reason why I ship them both as friends and lovers. It's mostly for Ron's sake, really. I think he could use someone like Draco in his life, at least the way it is now, with a family and friends who can't really understand him. Also, Ron generally gets insecure with competition, and can't handle it, but with Draco, I think it could be different. I imagine that if he competed with him, he would just give it his best shot, because he wouldn't feel like he'd have anything to lose, if he lost, since they don't respect each other anyway, he'd just do his best to win, so he wouldn't have to deal with his taunting. Uh, I'm not sure that makes as much sense as it does in my head... And sorry for the off-topicness. ^^;
ext_6866: (Hadn't thought of that)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


No, I think that is on topic-and I agree! I also think Ron would be good for Draco because he often does just call a spade a spade and I think he'd feel a lot more comfortable speaking out to Draco than he does to Harry. Ron argues with Hermione all the time, but Harry is basically off-limits. He rarely if ever disagrees with Harry with the same confidence he does to Hermione. I think he would with Draco if they were friends, and that Draco would probably be able to take it in ways he wouldn't if it were coming from Harry.

From: [identity profile] ptyx.livejournal.com


I loved this essay, and I'm saving it on my memories. It throws a new light on the three characters, and makes them more interesting to me.

Nitpicking: there's another typo:
good reason to think that whatever we'll here about Saint Lily
ext_6866: (Might as well be in Chinese)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks--yes, I had to read that several times before I caught the typo. D'oh!

From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/


ITA on the Draco and Snape front- the Snape part, makes me really, really want to hug the poor man. He's too old for all these craps life gives him, doesn't he deserve to ever get a break? Sheesh.

As for dear Ronnie, his decreasing significance in Harry's adventures after PS/SS... I have two contradicting readings of it:

1. He, like Draco who had been becoming less of a *school* rival to Harry after PS/SS, would regain spotlight in the final book where it's the most important.

2. He indeed was not 'designed' to be TOO crucial an element of the main plot.

At the moment I am more leaning toward reading 1, because it would seem that too much page space have been devoted to his struggling (as you described in the OP), for there not to be resolutions for them?

From: [identity profile] kylandra.livejournal.com


You know, you're totally right. It's funny, because I always am conscious of how Snape and Draco are similar, but I often have a tendency to forget how similar Ron and Draco (and Ron and Snape, but I think more with Draco) are. I notice it sometimes, I think I really noticed it, as you mentioned, when Ron was really mad at Harry in GoF, but it tends to slip my mind.

I also really loved this because I've always been rather fascinated with the characters who aren't special, whether they're good guy sidekicks or antagonists. I think it's probably because I've always kind of been one of those people, that feels like I'm just kind of normal and then looking around at other people who are really talented. And yeah, while I may really love those people, it's quite difficult sometimes not to be bitter about it. *hugs Snape and Ron*

Haha, you know, I was talking about this similar kind of thing with somebody--I don't remember who--about manga and anime. There's a lot of shonen and shojo manga about those 'special' characters, the only person who's phenomenally naturally talented, the only person who can do a certain thing, etc. A lot of series are ostensibly about the 'normal' person thrown into the middle of extraordinary people and circumstances, but quite often it's sort of like how Harry sees himself as being just a normal kid and doesn't notice the ways in which his own god/author given specialness let him do all these things, while in reality they're put in that extraordinary group/circumstance because of some innate specialness that someone perceives in them.

And of course there's often a rival who gets passed over and then proceeds to make the life of said hero/heroine a living hell. I always feel bad for them. Draco reminds me so much of the antagonist girls from Oniisama E and Ace wo Nerae, for example (both girls who get overlooked because of the new girl who's taken in for no apparent reason apart from someone seeing something special in them). LOL!
ext_6866: (Default)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


LOL--I'm the same way. I always see myself as one of the crowd; I can't imagine myself being the special person, really, unless there's a really believable point about the character not seeming special at all. I remember doing a post about something similar once about how there are the characters who have "destinies" and characters who make decisions to get involved. I can't help but root for them for making decisions that way. Like Han Solo having to choose to go back to the rebellion, as opposed to Luke who is the Chosen One. Or Ron choosing to stick with Harry--or Draco and Snape fighting their way in from the outside.
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