Ron the prefect

[sistermagpie]

Update on the Christopher Walken connection: I think I mentioned my parents knew him somehow when he was a kid? 'Kay, the real deal is that my mother's sister (my aunt) went to dancing school with him as a kid, back when his family ran a bakery in Queens. Apparently his brothers are still in the bakery business. So there ya go. That's how my mother knew him. She used to go to his dance recitals.

Hee.

Been re-reading OotP and really liking Ron there. I've always liked Ron as a character but almost never identify with him in any way. In this book I realized in a small way I did.

Up to chapter 10 in the re-read and the whole Ron-as-prefect thing really gets me and here's why. I have this pattern in life--I know it's a pattern, I accept it and it doesn't really bother me. I never fight for control of something. Like...if I'm involved with something and somebody else comes in and wants it to be all about them or their thing, just anything that makes me feel like it doesn't really "belong" to me, I drop it. I'm not very passive-aggressive but I do have a huge supply of passive resistance. What I get out of it, I guess, is that I've given the thing up myself rather than letting the other person take it from me. It's not that I can't *share.* Sharing is fine--but if somebody else wants it for themselves I usually give it to them and walk away.

I don't think I'd have had the same reactions to the prefecture that Ron does in OotP, but I can so relate to the way he feels about it. First he unexpectedly gets this badge. Despite the fact that I tend to think Dean would make a better prefect, Ron wins the thing completely honestly as far as he knows. (This is probably why it infuriates me when Dumbledore sides with everyone else and says yes, it really should have been Harry's.) So here's he's got this badge that he obviously does feel proud about, as evidenced by his constantly picking it up and moving it and trying to see it on his robe in the window reflection. The boy was given an unexpected compliment and perhaps more importantly, a sign that someone sees something in him and trusts him with responsibility.

And immediately, everybody conspires to suck the joy out of it. The twins, I think, would be fine by themselves. Yes, they're irreverent about it but I don't think they're trying to tear him down at all. But then Hermione runs in and mistakenly thinks Harry's prefect because he's holding the badge: "I knew it," she says. Fine. But then, when Harry says, "Not me. Ron's the prefect," with, I think, an awkwardness that shows he, too, thinks this is embarrassing for all involved, Hermione makes things worse: "Are you sure?" WTF? How about just transferring your joy to Ron there and saying, "I knew it would be one of you!" Instead there's a long moment where she can't hide her feeling that Ron doesn't deserve it as much as Harry does. She's disappointed. There's been a mistake.

So now along with the twins neutral, regular teasing about Ron's interest in the badge, he's got to feel guilty about taking Harry's spot and know that everybody is thinking Harry should have it. And what does everyone do at dinner but prove him right by spending the whole night making it up to Harry for not being prefect? Either they're telling stories about how they couldn't have been prefect either because they were too cool rambunctious or, in Remus' case, explaining how they didn't really get/take the job seriously. Well, that's great to cheer Harry up and it works but what about Ron who has yet to get one genuine validation that he deserved the thing himself? Nobody can come up with one. Molly is supportive no matter what, which is great, but not one person can honestly say he'll do a good job. Harry snorts with laughter at the twins' joke, "Who would ever appoint Ron prefect?" and finally is only able to say, "I cause too much trouble," which again doesn't explain why Ron should be prefect but instead explains why Harry, who is superior, can't be prefect. Even Kingsley, I think, wonders aloud why Dumbledore didn't make him prefect, like he's the obvious first choice. If Harry had gotten prefect, I suspect everybody would just be congratulating him and not bothering too much about Ron because hey, it's not like he'd have any reason to expect it himself. Ron would probably feel the same way, in fact. Just imagine him sitting under a banner congratulating him for being made prefect while the main topic of conversation is why was Harry not made prefect? Just imagine my using the word "prefect" so many times in one paragraph. Whew!

So Ron gets on the train knowing that pretty much nobody considers him to really deserve his badge, and this is also the chapter where Hermione starts, imo, appointing herself head prefect. Hermione is not at all happy at the prefect situation: she doesn't approve of Pansy Parkinson (thick as a concussed troll) or Draco. She has nothing bad to say about the others, but nothing good either. When Ron jokes about giving Goyle lines to write she scolds him about abusing his power and not stooping to Malfoy's level but really...lighten up. Ron didn't abuse his power, he just made a joke about giving Goyle lines. Draco does the same thing moments later, gleefully telling Harry he could punish him without actually doing it. Obviously it's in character for Hermione to be controlling like this but given that Ron already feels like he's not really a prefect I think it's the beginning of his just giving up the title, if Hermione's going to criticize every thing he does as one. (Not that she's being really mean to him here or anything--I just think it eventually adds up.)

Re-reading chapter ten I was really struck by Hermione's attitude about the job, in fact. She spends a lot of time focusing on keeping other prefects in line. When Hermione first comes into Harry's compartment she's "disgruntled" and announces there are "two prefects from each house. One boy and one girl." Worse, she has to share the job with stupid people like Pansy and Draco. She really seems angry about it. This could be because they insulted her at the meeting, but those things don't usually bother her this way, and besides I think Ron would be angry too and have something to say about it. I think the whole concept angers her.

The kids are briefly separated getting off the train. Harry notices Draco and his friends pushing "timid-looking" second years to get a coach to themselves, then Hermione comes through the crowd, panting and complaining about Malfoy being "beastly" to some first years, using his badge to bully worse than ever and threatening to report him. Did she intervene, I wonder, and is that why she's panting? (Is that why the Slytherins are shoving at this moment? Are they angry?) Whatever happened, while I'm sure Draco was obnoxious as always I still can't separate this from Hermione's being determined to patrol the prefect squad as much if not more than the other students. Because just as Malfoy has no doubt made his prefect's position part of his own obnoxious personality, so has Hermione's given her license to be more bossy and judgmental than ever. The reason I bring it up here is, among other things, that I seem to recall Ron later calling the first years "midgets" and Hermione scolding him too. So I can sort of imagine a scene where Malfoy was being an obnoxious prefect, "Oy. You there! Where you supposed to be? Get back in line!" and laughing at the tizzy he puts the 11-year-old into, only to have Hermione march up and start scolding him and starting a fight. If one was a teacher in charge of prefects, I think one would consider Hermione to have an attitude problem possibly far more difficult to handle than Malfoy's. (I also can't help but think of the DA as being more to her liking, what with her having more authority and power and ability to punish and all...)

I'll have to re-read the book to be sure, but my memory is that Hermione pretty much takes possession of the whole prefect angle. So there's Ron, possibly crushing on her (please come to your senses, this is not a relationship that would be healthy for either of you), constantly having his own decisions on the job called into question or criticized by Supervisor Hermione, and unfortunately completely lacking the confidence to stand up for himself because after all, everyone knows he didn't deserve the badge to begin with. It's exactly like what he deals with on the Pitch--he didn't quite earn his position so can't really be confident.

Anyway, so I really feel for Ron in this instance. I don't think I'd have reacted the same way because, I really wouldn't *want* to be prefect and I think Hermione's orders would roll off me. I don't think I'd see it as the kind of honor Ron does, you know? But if I was in a situation where I really did respect an award or a position and when I needed reassurance that I got it honestly everyone made it clear I didn't, and there was somebody else grabbing control of it, I think I'd let go of it just like Ron does. I just remember feeling like later, when there's some scene in the Common Room where the twins are acting up and Ron says, "Hermione will take care of it," it's not that Ron's lost interest in being prefect or doesn't respect the position, it's that he no longer considers himself prefect.

I think that was one of the things that really struck me about Ron in this book...he's almost like Neville in the way he seems to have internalized all his problems and decided they are up to him to solve alone. After last year's fight with Harry, he seems to have opted out of any competition with him in favor of a more solitary development. This could be good for Ron or it could not be...I just realized I no longer trust that everyone's character development will follow logically from book to book so I can't say where he'll go next!

Comments

[musesfool.livejournal.com]

I think that was one of the things that really struck me about Ron in this book...he's almost like Neville in the way he seems to have internalized all his problems and decided they are up to him to solve alone.

Yeah, I think Ron did a lot of growing, in good ways, in OotP (and I hope it continues), but that Harry's just too wrapped up in himself to see it yet, and Hermione tends to see only what she believes is there, so she'd miss the changes until they hit her in the face.

I, too, was angry with Dumbledore for saying Ron only got it because he didn't want to burden Harry (well, among the many things I was angry with Dumbledore about at the end of OotP *g*), but this is a really interesting way to look at Ron's apparent disinterest in the position later on (not that I think he should have been expected to police the twins - not with them being older and his brothers - that's a bad position to put anyone in, I thik).

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

One does wonder where the sixth and seventh year prefects were. Surely they should have been taking care of the twins, not Hermione.

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

I think Ron could (and should) have done more with his role than he did; but your post emphasises how he might have been deterred from doing so. That is; one of Hermione's strong points I thought in OoTP was her being firm about the Twins'antics towards the first years they test products on. Ron would have allowed it: Hermione stops it. It is a point I regarded as a Ron weakness, but I think I should have been kinder about the pressures he was under.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's true that when it comes down to it only Ron could have turned the situation around and instead he gave up. I can identify with that impulse, but then, there was more for Ron to think of than just his own desires there. Interestingly, he basically gives up at Quidditch as well until circumstances seem to give him a chance to get his confidence back.

Though I also agree with the person above asking where the seventh year prefects were, exactly? Ron's got the added awkwardness of their being his brothers, but I can't imagine I'd want to punish them either. Hermione at this point knows them pretty well and has their respect, I think. I imagine some random sixth year prefect might have wound up unconscious or bleeding profusely for this!

[unanon.livejournal.com]

Just imagine him sitting under a banner congratulating him for being made prefect while the main topic of conversation is why was Harry not made prefect?

You ripped my heart out with this observation. *grins weakly* I wandered over here from musesfool's LJ and I'm happy I did. This is a nice look at some of Ron's reactions in OotP...a book I've YET to read a second time despite many attempts.

I find your Hermione observations very interesting, primarily because I see the character of Umbridge as a very real object lesson for Hermione, at least in terms of where 'well meaning' abuse of power can lead.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You ripped my heart out with this observation.

My work here is done.;-)

I'm just trying to re-read OotP now. I've made it up to chapter 11.

I find your Hermione observations very interesting, primarily because I see the character of Umbridge as a very real object lesson for Hermione, at least in terms of where 'well meaning' abuse of power can lead.


That's very much what I see. You have to wonder what Hermione might be like in a post-Voldemort world, where there's no dark lord to provide the baseline for scary behavior.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

If any book in this series has given Ron a half-valid reason to become Peter no.2, OOTP would be it. Not saying that Harry and Hermione are really sucky friends, but in comparison to Ron's sincere loyalty and honesty when he is (not necessarily rightfully)upset, H & H should really be ashamed of themselves. And no not because in their arrogance/self-importance they somewhat resemble Malfoy/Umbridge, but because Ron deserves much better for what he's done for the both of them.

Oh and that "I didn't want to burden you any further" line by Dumbledore? I screamed out loud when I read it. Argh! Argh!

[ackonrad.livejournal.com]

*points above*

What she said.

You've explained perfectly why I adore Ron more and more, and like Harry and Hermione less and less.

I need a Ron icon.

[sine-que-non767.livejournal.com]

Agree on the whole Prefect spoilage for Ron. I was pretty surprised at it, really; my sympathy tends to go with Harry because I want to understand him, and thus I force it over to his side on initial reading (had to do a lot of forcing for OotP!). But after a while I regain equilibrium and see how much crap he gives to others, like Ron. I liked the point JKR made about Harry being ashamed of himself for envying Ron, but it still doesn't do much for Ron's ego. (And the twins, OMFG. I really *hated* them for pissing on Ron's achievement, and I think Molly should have used one of her trademark rants to really rip into them about how disloyal that was to a brother. Grrr.)

(please come to your senses, this is not a relationship that would be healthy for either of you),

Yes. I, to my shame, have been supervisor!Hermione to a RL guy who was laid-back in the same way Ron is. His passive-aggression really irritated me, and I reacted in a sharp, bossy way. It's irresistable, some people just bring it out of you if you're that way inclined, and it's really destructive to a relationship. I think friendship is a better way for them both. (If I was into het shipping, I could more realistically see Hermione with Snape because he wouldn't allow her to boss him around, and she'd respond to his intelligence and confident demeanour. Anyway.)

Ron wins the thing completely honestly as far as he knows. As it's said in the comments - Ron is Harry, but not quite. However, it was a pretty poignant moment from Harry's POV (when DD explains why he didn't give him the prefectship); and maybe Ron *is* the natural choice in DD's eyes. After all, why is Draco the natural choice? Why Pansy? I don't think they've necessarily distinguished themselves as role models. But, then, we're never told what the criteria for prefectship is, are we? It seems like it's just given to the major characters, doesn't it? ;)

I just realized I no longer trust that everyone's character development will follow logically from book to book so I can't say where he'll go next!

Yep, you said it. ;) I do like Ron's development, in that I think he is growing up quite realistically (ok, maybe too much unquestioning patience...), but there's still some way to go...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think Molly should have used one of her trademark rants to really rip into them about how disloyal that was to a brother.

Oh, good point. It's really funny how Molly's rants work, because sometimes it seems like the important things she says are background noise, and that she ignores the most obvious things to say.

The scene where Harry struggles with his feeling superior to Ron is really great, particularly the way that Harry literally swings up and down mood-wise throughout that whole chapter. In the end he's literally left wanting to have his cake and eat it too. That is, he feels better about not being prefect since James wasn't, but then still hasn't gotten over the niggling idea that he's been denied something because Ron and Hermione got it. That's why it's so funny when he asks himself if he could be arrogant like Draco Malfoy. Actually, he's arrogant in his own special Harry-way!

Yes. I, to my shame, have been supervisor!Hermione to a RL guy who was laid-back in the same way Ron is. His passive-aggression really irritated me, and I reacted in a sharp, bossy way.

Yeah, I can really see that in their future if they got together. As friends I think Hermione, especially, would benefit from having Ron around. I can see her when she's middle aged and possibly disappointed in things, realizing that Ron's always been one of the bright spots in her life despite his driving her crazy--and likewise I can see Ron feeling the same way about her. But if they got together I can see them destroying the whole thing.

But, then, we're never told what the criteria for prefectship is, are we? It seems like it's just given to the major characters, doesn't it?

LOL! Yeah, pretty much. Though I think that is why Hermione, Pansy and Draco and even Ernie all do seem to have distinguished themselves for the job because they all seem to be leaders of others. Of course with Draco and Pansy it seems like...well, yeah, they're leaders but they lead people in nasty things. But then in the real world with kids like that it's often only one side to them. When they're not leading people to snub this girl or mock that boy, they're running the cheerleader's bake sale or acing the SATs. (Brit-pickers across fandom wilt at my aggressively American examples but I don't know the UK equivalents.) That even insular Harry knows them is probably a sign they are more visible and active.

[imation23.livejournal.com]

God, you made me ache for Ron all over again. *sigh*

He gets shortchanged so many times in this book, and I can't stand it any more. OTOH I like the fact that he seems to be growing up. At this point I think he's actually more mature than either Harry or Hermione, surprisingly enough.

[imation23.livejournal.com]

And that remark from Dumbledore? Has made me hate him forever. I can forgive him everything else but that.

[perafruit.livejournal.com]

Oh..I hadn't even thought of it at all from Ron's perspective. He really gets it down, doesn't he? That's so unfair. :( damn celebrity Harry. what a bitch!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! It's just hysterical reading it again and thinking, err, why is everyone so obsessed with Harry not getting a prefects badge? It's like the complete opposite/parallel to Molly's saying, "That's everyone in the family!" which the twins understandably reply to with, "What are we, next door neighbors?"

[stellahobbit.livejournal.com]

The unsympathetic way JKR treats him (and it's getting worse as the books progress, I believe) make me fear for his continued safety and existence.

*pulls out Ron-love icon*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I'm beginning to think my liking a character is like the kiss of death for them!

[the-jackalope.livejournal.com]

This is probably why it infuriates me when Dumbledore sides with everyone else and says yes, it really should have been Harry's.

Oh I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who was angry at Dumbledore when he said that.

As to everything else. Absolutly agree, though I hadn't seen that scene after the badges are handed out that way before, thank you for the insight.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who was angry at Dumbledore when he said that.

Definitely you were not alone. Even if it's true, it's just really out of line to say knowing Ron's position. It reminds me of this incredibly annoying article I once read about Gwyneth Paltrow that made me unable to stand her. They interviewed her high school drama teacher who went on and on about how she was in a high school production of Midsummer Night's Dream and should have played Titania because she was so wonderful and he really thought she was the best and blah blah blah. This article was literally filled with little insults to anybody she went to school with who weren't as fabulous as she was.

There were a lot of article from her former schoolmates who were pretty annoyed--not with her but the insulting tone in the article--and one was from the girl who played Titania. She was like, "I know I wasn't a great actress, after all I have the video. I was a teenager in a high school play." It was just so tacky for the teacher to say that--I hoped he got in serious trouble at work.

Makes Dumbledore look good by comparison, though. At least he didn't tell it to the paper!

[overloved.livejournal.com]

*wallows in Ron-love*

Your observations are so wonderful to read.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! *waves Ron flag*

[overloved.livejournal.com]

Oh! And I was also wondering what you think the outcome will be when/if Ron ever finds out the Harry and Hermione didn't see him win the Quidditch match at the end of OotP? That is a pinless grenade waiting to go off, I think.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ooh. I wonder if that will come back at all? It might--or it might be one of those things that doesn't go anywhere.:-) Ron seems to have so little expectations for what he can expect from people in OotP I can see him just sucking it up.

[cheeringcharm.livejournal.com]

Very interesting topic. I'm here by way of the d_s.

I've re-read OotP at least 4 times and honestly, have never liked Ron's character in it. His role was diminished and he seemed to just sit back and let Harry and Hermione do everything. I couldn't quite figure why JKR wrote his character like that, and still can't.

However, I never really considered the situation at Grimmauld Place through Ron's eyes as you did. From that perspective and considering the fact that he is the sixth of seven children, his lack of interest/authority in the prefect department makes much more sense and I am able to sympathize with him a bit more.

However (you knew that was coming, didn't you?)...if Ron were really developing as many that have replied to this post said then he would have taken his role more seriously instead of just 'giving it up' because someone else wants it more. Instead of stepping up and fulfilling the role he was given, he stayed back, shirked his responsibilities and proved everyone that thought he didn't deserve it right. The only time he stood up for anything was to Seamus, the first night, and IMO, he abused his position by saying basically, "leave my friend alone. I'm a prefect."

In the train, when Hermione announces who the prefects are I think it is plot exposition more than an indication of her feeling slighted because she doesn't have a bigger honor than the others. Everyone in that car knew that a boy and a girl from every house are prefects. But not everyone reading the books knows this. That ridiculous piece of dialogue was solely for the reader.

Personally, I don't think Ron wanted to be prefect. When he got the badge he was as shocked as anyone. He was proud, to be sure, as he should have been; he was just given a great honor. The elation of that probably carried over for a while until the day to day duties of his position set in. I prefer to think that his apathy toward his position was more to do with his disinterest in it, rather than a passive character trait. That, in my mind at least, makes Ron seem like a stronger characte. Of course, if that is the case, he is still going the passive route, hoping to do such a poor job that the position will be taken away instead of telling McGonagall, "I don't want to do this next year."

I was talking to a friend on IM the other day about the giving Ron the prefect's badge line of DD's. When I read it the first time I was like, "WTF? Who cares about the prefect badge. Harry was just told he's got a good chance of dying! Priorities here DD!" The line was just tacked onto the end. It didn't fit. At all. Harry was over it. He hadn't thought about it since the summer. Then I realized why he said it, or why JKR put it there, cuz I have my doubts that DD's character agreed with that addition.

"I'm sorry, Ms. Rowling, I don't see what the prefect badge has to do with anything at all. Why must I say it?"

"Because I have to be able to explain why I'm giving it to Harry at the beginning of the next book."

"Ah," DD said, stroking his beard. "Well, couldn't I have told him at another more appropriate time."

"When? You haven't looked at him all year."

"Yes, well you are writing this, not me. I am obviously here at your pleasure."

"Too right you are. You are saying the line."

So, I think that in book 6, Harry will get the badge and Ron will be Quidditch Captain, a responsibility that he would want, be more interested in and much more suited to do. Perfect world? Harry gets the badge, is worried about how Ron will react and Ron says, "Oh, I told McGonagall that I didn't want it. Bloody nuisence that was. Have fun mate." Of course, then Harry will be jealous that Ron is Quidditch Captain...*shakes head* it never ends, does it?

Thanks for letting me post! I hope I haven't offended anyone...

cc

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Definitely the main point of Hermione's lines is probably to give the readers information about how the prefects work, you're right. I think Ron has some interest in the position if not doing the actual job of prefect since I think he sees himself as Head Boy in the mirror of Erised, right? And he does seem to be in love with his badge, bless him.:-)

But you're right that the way Ron responds isn't controlled by anybody else. He could definitely have taken the reactions of others and buckled down anyway. Instead he becomes really passive. Even if he's not literally trying to lose the job I think he has sort of removed himself from it so if he does lose it he'll feel like he did it himself. If Harry got the job next year I definitely think Ron would say just what you said--big pain, didn't want it. He's already sort of done that in OotP when he makes it clear he doesn't enjoy it.

[violetblossom.livejournal.com]

Oh everyone's comments has put me in Ron-loving mode ;D. You can't help but love and sympathize for him. He isn't full of self-pity though unlike Harry in OotP. Ron kind of keeps his feelings locked up inside most of the time ;/. I mean Harry is his best friend & he can't tell him about his problems. Harry wouldn't understand lurking in anyone's shadow. Harry in the wizarding world has been pretty much good at everything.

Someone mentioned that Ron reminds them of Neville a bit. I find Ron reminds me somewhat of Draco actually^^. Draco despises Harry for many reasons, but Draco is constantly competing with him. Is it a coincidence that Draco became a seeker? But Draco is Daddy's boy and always gets his way. He was probably extremely pissed after Harry in SS said that line about how he'll choose his own friends & being embarrassed infront of his friends (scabbers bit him). It's obvious how Draco tries to make Harry's life a hell. Why? Because Draco can never be as good as Harry. Draco is spoiled rotten but I think his rival is Harry. He tries to surpass him but he is no match for Harry. I think in that Ron & Draco are alike in that they both admire Harry's abilities.
I find Neville has extreme determination though. I think he is so used to being the worst at just about everything. But he always puts forth effort & in OotP you could see his ambition. Ron on the otherhand kind of feels like there is no reason to try, because everyone in his family has already done something. He has plenty of older brothers who have accomplished great things. Ron is kind of like "well it's not a big deal if i become or do ____ because ___ already did that" But don't get me wrong Ron has an extremely different personality from both neville & draco :P.

Ron is a very developed character; much more than Hermione when I think about it. She has some insecurities and is afraid of failure, but we know so much more about Ron. I just love his character. He has such fierce loyalty and is constantly thinking about his loved ones. So many people think he is going to die :'[. It hurts to just think about that.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I definitely think there is some serious Ron/Draco paralleling going on with regards to Harry...sometimes Harry and Draco are paralleled like with being Seeker etc., but other times it's Draco and Ron. It's kind of interesting the way Draco continues to hurl himself at Harry despite never winning (I like to think of him as the Wile E. Coyote of the Potterverse) while Ron goes the opposite route in OotP in deferring to Harry more. When Quidditch is getting to Ron Harry can't even really help him out because he just feels sorry for him.

I was really surprised to be reminded of Neville in Ron because like you, I don't usually think of them as having much in common. I suppose they both have demanding families but Neville, as you say, is almost more singled out by expecting to be a failure. Ron doesn't expect to be a big failure so much as invisible, I think.

I agree Ron does seem like a more developed character than Hermione in that we really see his vulnerabilities. I don't think we see Hermione's very much at all. There are a few isolated scenes but even now I'm not sure how to fit them into her whole personality. They seem to have been taken care of pretty quickly so that they no longer bother her the same way. In OotP I admit she came across like an author insertion a lot of the time, offering exposition that was sometimes a little too much and seeming to have a causes rather than real personal issues.

[psychic-serpent.livejournal.com]

When Hermione first comes into Harry's compartment she's "disgruntled" and announces there are "two prefects from each house. One boy and one girl." Did Hermione originally think that she and Ron were the only ones?

No, I doubt that she thought they were the only ones. This is simply a case of the author doing a rather bad job of getting info into the text that the characters are all supposed to know (since they've been going to the school for four previous years) but the reader may not know because it's never been explicitly stated in the books before. (Although it's something one can infer.) She USED to be better at this; perhaps she's taking "lessons" from Steve Kloves. (I can't believe the stupid and awkward, "Platform Nine and Three Quarters, this way," line of Molly's in the first film, as though Percy and the twins hadn't already been going to Hogwarts FOR YEARS.) Hermione could simply have said, "Well, the Slytherin fifth year prefects are Draco Malfoy and Pansy Parkinson, the Hufflepuffs are..." Which would have sounded far more natural and communicated the idea that there was one boy and girl from each house. What's really stupid, of course, is that Hermione (and JKR, for that matter) is behaving, all through the book, as though there are no sixth and seventh year prefects, let alone a Head Girl and Boy. Why she doesn't just report any egregious Draco-behavior to the heads is beyond me; JKR created a slew of new characters for the DA; she couldn't have made two of them Head Girl and Head Boy, and made some of the others prefects in years six and seven? Sometimes her tunnel-vision view of the Potterverse is just a bit frustrating.

I do think that Ron's appointments were both foreshadowed in the first book (Mirror of Erised). He had a simple joy in seeing himself in positions of respect and authority when he looked in the mirror; hopefully he'll be able to shake off the rotten attitude of the people around him and grow into his positions in the final two books. I have a sneaking suspicion that the brain incident at the DoM might mean that he will now give Hermione a run for her money academically. Wouldn't it be nice to see her NOT always get the top marks in her year for once?

And--Dumbleodore's statement. Yeah. Complete cop-out on JKR's part. I would have been much happier if he'd said that he thought Ron had shown some excellent leadership qualities and he thought Harry was a bit too impulsive. Both are true. Harry's shown leadership qualities too, of course, particularly in OotP, but his are always of the rebel-insurgency type (leading the DA), while Ron's leadership qualities are like that of the status-quo authority figure--a prefect, in other words. Dumbledore definitely appointed the right person to be prefect. Wouldn't it be nice if he acknowledged that to both Harry and Ron? (And to Hermione as well.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You're definitely right the main point here is exposition--unfortunate since it could be done so much more smoothly. They could just talk about who the other prefects are from the different houses. In fact, didn't everybody get it when two Gryffindors received badges at the house?

But yeah, I don't think we're really be told she thought they were the only ones, but I think part of why I even thought that was because Hermione's general disgruntlement over the prefect situation, presumably because of Pansy and Draco. As you say, she acts as if there's no one for her to go to who's got more authority, but she's so generally brisk and has so much to say about everything on the subject I get the feeling a lot of her reports wouldn't get the results she wanted. That, to me, seems very in keeping with Hermione's character, that she'd be enthusiastic and committed but not work well with others. Maybe it's just that JKR doesn't want to spend time on Hermione reporting things to the Head Boy, but to me it seems like the Slytherins are acceptable prefects. They'd have to be far from perfect, but then so was Remus.

And--Dumbleodore's statement. Yeah. Complete cop-out on JKR's part. I would have been much happier if he'd said that he thought Ron had shown some excellent leadership qualities and he thought Harry was a bit too impulsive. Both are true.

Yes! It just amazes me that nobody can come up with good reasons for Ron to be prefect or just make it clear that Harry really doesn't particularly seem suited to the job. The thing is, it's not an insult to not be picked for a particular job like this. The only reason Harry really cares about it is because the people who get it happen to be his best friends.

[cadesama.livejournal.com]

I'm not a great Ron lover -- I appreciate him, but haven't ever warmed to him the way a lot of fans have -- but this just made me wince in sympathy. And, I think it explained one of the great OotP mysteries to me: why do Ron and Hermione seem so intimidated by Harry the entire book? Okay, it doesn't explain Hermione's reaction, but I think it's a pretty solid argument for Ron's. The way Ron avoids getting involved in the second conversation about the DA and relays Hermione's message about not biting their heads off is part of this.

Not knowing the criteria for Prefects, I was always sort of hoping that non-Trio characters would get it for Gryffindor because it's hardly like Harry gets into trouble on his own and I thought (as you so keenly illustrated) that Hermione would be a terror if she ever got power. She just doesn't have the empathy or charisma to really carry off leadership. But then, it doesn't seem that JKR really showing the Prefects as proper figures worth respect, anyway. Ernie is pompous, Malfoy a bully, Hermione's a swot, Percy sided with Fudge, Remus never stopped his friends, and Riddle was evil. Not exactly auspicious company. Now, whether JKR means this sort of as another swipe at Ron and Hermione (that they win a childish, ultimately meaningless role) or simply "normal" way of rewarding them is debatable.

On the Dumbledore quote -- even as a major Harry fan, I agree that was an awful thing to say. Way to undermine a friendship *and* imply that Harry will never get to live any sort of normal life.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That's a fascinating part of it--you're right, the prefects almost do seem to be exceptionally flawed. I mean, not that you'd expect them to be perfect, but it seems like a lot of them have distinguished themselves by being rather annoying to others in some way. Like I said in the post, it seems like Dean Thomas would be a better choice for prefect since he's level-headed, likeable and calm. Of course we don't know him well--for all I know he wouldn't be very good. But Dumbledore has quite a track record of picking people who might cause some resentment. He picked James, the guy who turned somebody upsidedown, as Head Boy. Remus, one of James' gang, as a prefect. Hermoine, who has a habit of really turning people off when she bosses them around. Malfoy who's bullied people. Pansy who screeches insults at people.

I suppose it's difficult to find somebody who's both universally liked and aspires to be a leader. Most of the prefects weren't a real surprise, anyway.

Now, whether JKR means this sort of as another swipe at Ron and Hermione (that they win a childish, ultimately meaningless role) or simply "normal" way of rewarding them is debatable.

That's a good question and I don't know what the answer is either. She has a lot of the "cool" adults talking about how meaningless the job is and there's not much official authority that anybody likes in the books. It does seem like all the prefects go on to join unofficial groups for power, though--I think all the other prefects join the DA and Draco and Pansy obviously head up the IS.

[ixchelmala.livejournal.com]

Fisrtly thank you for posting some interesting observations from a Ron-focused POV. I've been recently doing more research on him as the implications of how the book will end up based on the POV he has when contrasted with the irony of what my co-theorist and I believe think will happen as it relates to Knigh2King. I know many people are skeptical about it, but for me, it gave me it gave me a deeper insight to who Ron is, and will be. As for lizardlaugh, my co-theorist, she's always had a deep and profound love for Ron.

So with that bit of background and I wanted you to know that I found of particular interest, is these two sections:

Ron wins the thing completely honestly as far as he knows. (This is probably why it infuriates me when Dumbledore sides with everyone else and says yes, it really should have been Harry's.) So here's he's got this badge that he obviously does feel proud about, as evidenced by his constantly picking it up and moving it and trying to see it on his robe in the window reflection. The boy was given an unexpected compliment and perhaps more importantly, a sign that someone sees something in him and trusts him with responsibility.

For me, this says a lot about Ron and how he validates himself and later, much later still remembers enough to tell Harry that she should have been Prefect. But Ron being knowing how much was going on in Harry's life and alternately knowing how much was to come for his own life, sees his own potential. I personally think there is nothing bigger to say about a strong person, the kind of person that Ron is, that many of us should aspire to be, when he recognizes in himself the trust and responsibility that goes with being assigned the position of Prefect as he was in OotP.

Ron develops a lot more in OotP, independently of everyone else. Powerful foreshadowing for what's lizardlaugh and I have speculated is to come. Which brings me to my next section:

I think that was one of the things that really struck me about Ron in this book...he's almost like Neville in the way he seems to have internalized all his problems and decided they are up to him to solve alone. After last year's fight with Harry, he seems to have opted out of any competition with him in favor of a more solitary development. This could be good for Ron or it could not be...I just realized I no longer trust that everyone's character development will follow logically from book to book so I can't say where he'll go next!

This bit to me is so incredibly prophetic and dead on target. If Knight2King pans out, particularly the Weasley is Our King section. Your statements just hit on how much must be going on in Ron's head about who he is and who those around him are, but also a powerful statement about how as an older person he's doing the same for a longer amount of time.

(P.S. I got here via the Snitch, but I'm going to post my musing here on my lj and link back. Let me know if you object and I'll adjust it accordingly.:)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Sure, link away! I'm glad you found it interesting!

I did feel a real respect for Ron the way he seemed to make the decision on his own to go after things he wanted. When he was sneaking out to practice Quidditch I though it was obvious what he was doing, but what I appreciated was the way he wasn't intentionally trying to surprise anyone, nor did he seem resentful of people not noticing what he was doing. I felt like the whole Quidditch thing was a personal battle for him, a type of battle that was very different from the sort of thing Harry got on the Pitch--or Ginny for that matter. Everyone dreams of being a natural star athlete but a lot of people aren't. Ron having to stick through a game even while messing up and doing worse as his confidence crumbles...wow. That's impressive.

[no-remorse.livejournal.com]

The irony is for me here that Ron's character development in OotP is diametrically opposed to Hermione's, which is non-existent.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hermione for me often became too much of an exposition machine, knowing all about everyone's motives but seeming to have no inner life of her own. She just seemed to be handling things--writing Victor, knitting hats, making coins, psychoanalyzing Sirius and Cho, etc.

[ishtar79.livejournal.com]

I've been kind of putting off replying to this post, partly because I'm simply too swamped, partly because thinking about it requires I feel sympathy for Ron, and that's not a state of mind that's normal for me. ;)

However yes, I noticed that both Harry and Hermione were less than good friends to Ron regarding the Prefecture, though I actually think that the Twins' behavior was much more hurtful. I can sort of understand Hermione's initial reaction of surprise, because honestly, nobody expected Ron to be perfect. She could do with learning some tact, but I think I would have shown a little surprise at this turn of events. Her subsequent behavior as a Prefect... *sigh* Hermione has all the makings of a dictator, you know? I'm utterly unsurprised she revelled in having power.

Harry, on the other hand, I wanted to slap most of the chapter, because talk about an entitlement-minded little shit! On the other hand, it made me sort of happy that the books aknowledged that Harry is starting to take the special treatment for granted. The part of me that identifies with Snape's POV had me going 'YES! He DOES think he's better than everyone else!'. Not that I don't understand his behavior to an extent-he's a teenager, and they tend to generally feel the world revolves around them, and in Harry's case, it sort of does. It's only natural that he's affected by others' perception of him.

The adults were rather tactless, and they don't even have the excuse of being 15, like Harry and Hermione. It's only natural for Kingsley to be wondering why Harry didn't get the badge, but not in a loud voice in front of Ron. Sheesh!

I must admitt I was rather surprised at Ron getting the badge-though I suppose if it didn't go to Harry (since being deprived of it gave our bratty hero another reason to be REALLY ANGRY IN ALL CAPS), it had to go to another main character.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's funny that this thread has brought up the question of exactly what does one do to be considered prefect material? Hermione makes sense because she does seem like a dictator in the making. She's been telling people what to do since day 1 and I can see the faculty saying, "Well, if we give her an official job perhaps this will channel it into a more positive, controlled outlet." Which is part of why it's so funny that Hermione immediately starts prefecting the prefects. That's why I think she'd be very difficult to handle in the job, because it's one thing to sit Malfoy down and say, "Listen junior, we all know you can be a bully. Try any of the Mudblood crap or throw one leg-locking curse at a second year and you're history." That's straightforward. But with Hermione it would be like, "Now, Hermione, I know that you are very enthusiastic about your position and want to do a good job and want the school to be the best it can be. Buuuuuut...."

The thing with Ron is I definitely agree--why make him prefect? Frankly, it seems like he's made prefect for the same reason Harry would have been: because of his adventures the past three years. He's done a lot of work for Dumbledore and this is a kickback, since Harry didn't get it. But as we see, he's never shown any instincts towards leadership--which we know Hermione, Pansy and Draco all have--so it's not surprising he finds it really hard to discipline others.

You know, I just had another thought too. He's a Weasley, and doesn't Dumbledore sort of own them? I'm thinking about Pharnabazus' essay and the patron system. Molly says Ron "makes everyone in the family." She's leaving out the twins, but then the twins clearly didn't respect the postion anyway. They really do think it's a better mark of character to not be prefects, so Dumbledore wasn't risking anything by passing over them. Next year surely Ginny will be one too. I wonder if Ron was second choice to Harry because he was a Weasley, the family most loyal to Dumbledore who has been in Gryffindor forever.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

This is probably why it infuriates me when Dumbledore sides with everyone else and says yes, it really should have been Harry's.

And indirectly insults not only Ron, but every other prefect in the school - Harry has more important things on his mind than them.
It's like the old H/D OMG Draco is liek so immature and childish next to Marked Man Harry, except magnified, so no-one ON EARTH can possibly fathom Harry's awesome responsibilities (except Dumbledore of course.)

So here's he's got this badge that he obviously does feel proud about

And the thing is, he wanted it from PS. Probably not for the right reasons - certainly, Ron's never shown any leadership skills or desire for school/social responsibilities/changes in the system; which is why I'd rather not see him or Harry in the position; but at least he wanted it.
Harry has never shown any previous desire for it at all, and his only reason for desiring it is because his friend has something he doesn't.
No 'Gosh, after all my whining about everything happening to me, what I really want is more responsibilities and attention!' or 'I'd really like to assert authority over others' both of which I could believe and find IC; but simply WAH Ron can't beat me! Shut up, Harry!

I don't think they're trying to tear him down at all.

I do. Not in a consciously malicious way, but I do think that they're warning him in a way - don't get any ideas, don't get your head swelled up, you're still kid brother and you're not getting in our way.

If Harry had gotten prefect, I suspect everybody would just be congratulating him and not bothering too much about Ron because hey, it's not like he'd have any reason to expect it himself.

Harry never considers Ron getting the badge and fails to come up with one positive attribute Ron has that he lacks; so I doubt that even he would have considered Ron's feelings. Maybe a 'Poor guy, he'll probably be jealous' but I can't imagine he'd believe even for a minute that Ron should have got it.

Hermione comes through the crowd, panting and complaining about Malfoy being "beastly" to some first years, using his badge to bully worse than ever and threatening to report him.

To repost (sorry!): Considering that Hermione expressed no problem with the twins hissing children five years younger than them (that's not being "beastly" to "first years"! Or if it is, it's only because they're eleven year old Nazis! Or something) hexing younger students from behind until they're unconscious, participating with said hexing herself, kidnapping, blackmail, hitting and poisoning; I find myself unimpressed with her assessment of what constitutes 'bullying' and a 'bully'.

I don't think I'd see it as the kind of honor Ron does, you know?

In my school, you applied if you wanted consideration for prefect-hood, which makes sense. I didn't apply though. I was too cool. *strikes tonks pose* ;)

I think that was one of the things that really struck me about Ron in this book...he's almost like Neville in the way he seems to have internalized all his problems and decided they are up to him to solve alone.

Ron is pathetically Neville-like in this book, constantly surprised at and rejecting any attention he recieves; whereas Harry is more like Books1-4!Ron - for instance, he's coded much less romantically than before in the way that Ron is: he vomits, he's jealous, he yearns for attention from girls and will exploit their pity to get it, he experiences self-pity.
Which I guess leaves Neville to assume Harry's role as Hero, just in time for the prophecy's revealing!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I do. Not in a consciously malicious way, but I do think that they're warning him in a way - don't get any ideas, don't get your head swelled up, you're still kid brother and you're not getting in our way.

That's true--sadly, I was basically thinking that they weren't trying to tear him down in a personal way, like as Ron, but were just giving the reaction they'd give to any one of their brothers who got the badge: Don't get any ideas; you're not getting in our way. Basically, I was thinking that they teased him the exact same way they teased Percy, but it's hard to tell whether they would ever admit it could be hurtful, you know? Like when Hermione says to Ron, "They're just jealous" and he says, "No, I don't thin they are..." he's right. They're not jealous, they just consider all prefects the enemy and feel it's their job to cut down to size any family member who wants that kind of authority.


In my school, you applied if you wanted consideration for prefect-hood, which makes sense. I didn't apply though. I was too cool. *strikes tonks pose* ;)

You're almost GINNY-LIKE!!;-)

Yeah, that makes total sense. I wouldn't ever have been considered for something like that (too much of a rebel...actually just obviously not about to accept responsibilities for others) but it makes sense that kids should apply for it to show their interest. Doing it this way probably makes them miss out on a lot of kids who would be good at it but they didn't notice because they weren't loud.

Wow, that final paragraph is quite the musical-chairs there, but it's true. Especially the way Ron doing surprised and rejecting of attention. He seems like such a lame duck in this book, like he got off on the wrong foot and just can't right himself because he keeps getting knocked into again, and I feel like it starts here with the prefect badge.

[(Anonymous)]

I really like the point about what JKR was getting at in that scene. I'll admit upfront that Ron as a character frequently leaves me cold--I don't dislike him, but I tend not to be terribly interested in him. Sirius aggravates me much more, but I also feel a lot more for him.

But one of the things that does bother me in the longterm descriptions of the Trio is that JKR seems to be having trouble giving Ron anything. Hermione, for all her faults (many of which were exemplified and amplified in the prefect position, I agree), is allowed to be brilliant and analytical and academic, but I'm having trouble thinking of any gift Ron has that is unique to him. It's not that he has to be super-mega-gifted at anything, but I wish he was being allowed to do something. It's like JKR can let Hermione "compete" with Harry (via complementing his skills), but she can't let Ron do that for some reason. He isn't allowed anything that's uniquely his, and especially with the entrance of NewGinny, he seems even further diminished in his family.

And I think it comes off to me as selfishness, in a meta-way, on JKR's part as The Writer (and I know of the back story about Ron being based on her friend, which makes it weirder). Ron's most virtuous moments seem to be when he is loyal or when he is brave--which are laudable enough, but he's clearly never going to be allowed to be *more* brave or loyal than Harry (well, I'm not sure in real life that can be so easily ranked, but in the books, it clearly is). In OotP, one of the things that could be striking about him playing Quidditch is that he doesn't give up on it in face of pretty awful humiliation, which I think would have been a MUCH more interesting story and character-building ark than SuddenlySuperSeeker!Ginny. I think that is something that Harry or Hermione would be unable to do, in a really fundamental way. But partly because of the narrative structure, we can't see that.

And it seems like the Prefect position could have been a lovely arc for that. I mean, what if the first-years clearly liked Ron better, and he was demonstrably better with them than Hermione? I think that would have been completely within character--frankly, a lot of first-years would probably find Hermione terrifying. One of the things that irritated me in fandom terms about OotP is that when we finally got the main characters old enough to be prefects, we got a year that may have thrown the system out of whack--but I would love to have known what the prefects and the Head Boy and Girl were doing under the reign of Umbridge. And I would have really liked to see that running as a counterpart to the DA--in which Hermione, not Ron, gets to bask in reflected glory.

[(Anonymous)]

I love when I leave out parts so that my own posts make less sense to me when I reread them.

I meant to say, about the Quidditch bit, is that it seems to me more and more unfair that Ron gets harped on in certain corners for being materialistic or whatnot, when I think Hermione and Harry are much more image-conscious in some much sharper ways. Which is why I wish Ron could be honestly admired by both H&H and the text for refusing to just slink away from after his first Quidditch match. I don't think Hermione could react anything like that bravely if she managed to totally humiliate herself in class, or that Harry could deal with someone really challenging him on any of the chinks in his hero-armor. And to me, it's much more poignant because Ron isn't a Quidditch superstar (bestin100hundredyearsOMG!)--he's just really not that naturally talented, which is totally different from Snape picking on Hermione in class or the rumours about Harry being crazy. I don't want to minimize those incidents, but they can comfort themselves with the fact that those things clearly aren't true--which isn't the case for Ron. As much as Ron would like to have his Erised-longings fulfilled, I think he has some sense that they won't be (maybe too much for a fifteen-year-old). Whereas Hermione and Harry I see as so focused on their extraordinary qualities (and Harry still always comes off as protesting a little too much on this) that they seem to me much more worrisome. This also irks me in the whole potential Ron-as-traitor theory--I could buy it happening, for emotional reasons (there's that great part in A Daughter of Time where Inspector Alan Grant reflects that you can never say so and so is incapable of murder, but you can say with great certainty that they would be incapable of committing a particular murder). But that seems to me both less likely to happen than Hermione and Harry doing some truly awful ends-justify-the-means things in their Hero identities--and that in the Gryffindor worldview, the latter will clearly never be of comparable concern.

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Wow, good post! I didn't think about the prefect-scene this way before, and, like the other commenters, am filled with sadness for poor unacknowledged Ron.

Thing is, I can't really think of a good reason why Harry should be a prefect, other than, that, well, he's Harry, he gets certain priveleges and is the protagonist, etc. I wasn't suprised that he wasn't, and I kind of like the way it exposed him as selfish/irrational, forcing him and the readers out of his little "I get everything and Ron doesn't, but that's okay because he's me mate and I'm angsty" mindset. I guess knowing the criteria would be helpful with this, but, really, what? 'Leadership abilities'? Good grades? Notoriety? Would it really have been wise making someone a prefect whom about half the WW then considered an insane liar?

I hope that Ron secretly continues to mature on the side (esh, I make him sound like a cheese), and one day whips out his mastermind!chess!strategy skills, or something. Poor boy.

Because just as Malfoy has no doubt made his prefect's position part of his own obnoxious personality, so has Hermione's given her license to be more bossy and judgmental than ever.

Good point. The rules of authoritah are implemented according to personality, but, considering the general chaos that goes down at Hogwarts mostly (and the WW in general), I can't say I'm surprised. I mean, it's just like no one is going to take Snape to task for his petty points-removing, right?

So there's Ron, possibly crushing on her (please come to your senses, this is not a relationship that would be healthy for either of you)

Yeah. :( Reading this post about the prefect!Hermione/Ron relationship just reinforces this for me. Why, JKR, why? *weeps for deluded dreams of platonic!Trio* They could all just stay three best friends! And grow up and find love with others, and have little families, but still have the great friendly bond, and get together now and then for chats and to fight crime! holidays and things and it would all be beautiful and very cute WHY WHY WHY? How come two males can have a great manly bond deeper-than-sex friendship but if it's man/woman/man then the woman has to end up involved romantically with one of them? WHY? *bewails*

And this has nothing to do with anything, but the train of thought leads me to...Hermione/Viktor! That was always a little weird, you know? Young girl woo'd by older international Quidditch star who turns out to be a secret!geek! Why? To show Ron as jealous? To show Hermione as mature? I wonder what kind of letters they write to each other...

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Oh, and just thinking about this some more, I suddenly realized *smacks forehead* that I have experience with the crazy ways of prefecture! I have no idea how it works in the UK (I'd guess it's probably different on a school-to-school basis, actually), but in my school, we voted for the prefects, and the teachers did as well, but their votes were worth a lot more than ours. So what happened is that you got these guys who were the more 'known' kids, because nobody would vote for someone they'd never heard of. The kids weren't really great leaders at anything, they were just middle-of-the-road, ordinary kids, who would get decent grades and be good at maybe a couple of sports or something like that. The Head Boy & Girl were usually the most popular students, but they had to be 'good' popular students, involved in lots of sports and random societies and things. Having really good grades wasn't necessarily involved (The Supergeek of the year was always a prefect, but the rest of us geeks who mostly just kept to ourselves, were always passed over @:) ) So, the prefects weren't really model citizens at all, just ordinary and easily recognizable, and most of them weren't responsible at all but were regular trouble-makers, and the Head Boy & Girl would always present a clean, decent image to the school and the teachers and then get totally trashed on the weekends... :)

So, er, I guess my point is, it's all well and good to expect Dumbledore & co to really recognize the merits of the people they're appointing prefects, but school things are always kind of arbitrary, and remember, the good folks at Hogwarts don't have the benefit of being able to read in detail about the lives of their students, and thus might not know more than the surface indications of 'oh, he's a good kid...comes from a good family', or whatever.

Also, re: Draco - would Lucius have stood for him not being made a prefect? I guess this depends on your Lucius interpretation - he might kick up a stink about it, or he might just use it to goad Draco in the way he uses his taunts about Hermione...

[gramarye1971]

Am saving this post because it and the comments rock. You've reminded me again of the MANY reasons why I really dislike OotP, and can only hold out hope that things will be rectified in Book Six and Seven. *loves all over the placE*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yay! I am so loving the comments-striking gold in the comments!:-)

[solveigynt.livejournal.com]

Congratulations on everything you wrote. OotP really got both Dumbledore and Hermione down in my list of favorite characters, and you explained some of my reasons better than I could do myself. But yes, I agree with mostly everything, and I also agree with what someone said: considering how quietly Ron takes certain things in this book (i.e. The Quidditch final, when Ron should have been allowed to be way more angry than he was), Harry and Hermione should really be ashamed. The point you made about solitary development is really brilliant. I personally think this is a sign that Ron is a lot more mature than everyone is giving him credit for, but we'll see, hopefully.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! It's funny that even though I was sympathetic to Ron throughout the book it's only now re-reading and with other people saying it that it strikes me he really was *owed* better treatment by his friends somehow. I mean, not in the sense of their literally owing him, exactly, but just it made me think there's a lot that's just taken for granted about Ron and in OotP Harry and Hermione were so focused on their own goals (which sometimes seemed like plans for world domination!;-) he just didn't rank up there as important at all.

[(Anonymous)]

Ooh, wonderful post!

I really like your analysis of Ron's attitude toward the prefect position. I'm not sure if I agree with you that Hermione is "disappointed" that Ron has been made prefect, though. I get the feeling she, unlike Harry, has had the prefect question running around at the back of her head all summer, thinking about being made prefect, carefully analyzing the competition, wondering what the criteria are, planning what to do to improve conditions etc, and that she has come to the conclusion that she and Harry will be made prefects. Getting her own badge will have confirmed her theory (victory! again!), and the "are you sure?", I think, is an extremely graceless reaction to a hypothesis proved wrong. We already know she reacts less than calmly to failure, as in PoA with the boggart, and in the Shrieking Shack when she shouts at Lupin. She's not mad that he's a werewolf, or that he followed them, she's mad that he seemingly proved her wrong in trusting him. I've been going over the books in my head, and I can't remember a single other time in which she is proven wrong at something. She probably had a list of things she meant to talk to Harry about concerning the prefecture, specifically aimed to Harry's personality and maybe even exploiting his fame ("don't you want to be like Harry Potter?"). Even so, she was way off the scale of best friend behaviour, of course. As for why she hates Pansy, well, why shouldn't she bear a little grudge after the very public campaign Skeeter and the Slytherins held?

Do we ever get to know what the process for choosing prefects is like, or what the criteria are? I somehow got the feeling that Dumbledore does it on his own, possibly aided by the relevant Head of House (Tonks mentions her HoH, I think). If so, how does he do it? Given the choices we see, I think he only picks people who really *do* want to be leader of their house (regardless of their actual leading abilities). Percy would fit in with that, as would Draco, Pansy, Ernie, Hannah (from what we see of the Puffs in CoS), Hermione, and - Ron.

Other than that, I'm not so sure what decides. Draco and Ernie seem to be natural leaders of their group, and academically strong as well. Hermione has proved herself strong in a crisis, with the time-turner for example, and given her seemingly good relationship with MacGonagall I think she would have her vote, if it counts. Dumbledore might even look upon SPEW with more interest than most. Now, as for why Dumbledore chose Ron, however, I'll admit to being baffled. Sure, he knows that Ron longs to prove himself, but Ron hasn't really done anything that stands out. He helps, of course, but he's not (yet?) a natural leader, he's not academically brilliant, he's not particularily rule abiding, he's not really interested in progress and will accept things as they are. Well, there's the chess thing, but WHY? I kind of think he's chosen because he's Harry's best friend and a potential ally. He'll be "authority" who's on Harry's side. Given that Harry is in too fragile a position to be chosen, and really, Harry IS the natural choice, I think, no matter how shitty Dumbledore's little speech is. We see that Dumbledore makes it his "mission" in OotP to keep Harry in school at all costs, starting well before start of school, and Ron is made prefect, I think, in this light. Harry may even have been the intended prefect until Umbridge is appointed DADA teacher by the Ministry and Dumbledore knows the level of interference there will be. With both Hermione and Ron as prefects, Harry has more protection. They are in the know, they are willing to break rules for him, and they are connected to the Order.

I sorry to run off in all directions here, loved your thoughts as usual.

- Clara

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

And I totally agree with you that's what Hermione is really reacting to--not that she's anti-Ron, really, just that she honestly doesn't get it and so can't hide her surprise and confusion. When I said, "Something has gone wrong," that's really how I think of it--something's wrong in the universe. You said it better though--her calculations were off. And actually, it turns out her calculations weren't off at all--it should have been Harry.

In a way, that makes me even more annoyed on Ron's behalf because he's being given a job he's possibly really not qualified and why? Because he's Harry's friend? That's, like, 10 times worse! If not Harry, it probably would have been better for Ron to give it to somebody neutral. He wasn't even second best, he was just the closest person to Harry! It's like once again being Harry's friend just brings trouble for Ron because he's having to be a stand-in for Harry as prefect.

[ljash.livejournal.com]

Damn, I posted something and it got lost. Now I have to remember it all.

The important points were these: when I was reading all this and the comments, I remembered that what Ron saw in the Mirror of Erised was himself as Head Boy, wearing a badge. He also saw himself as Quidditch captain and holding the cup and all, but first he said he was Head Boy, wearing a badge like Bill's.

It's what he wanted most. He wanted to stand out from his family and be recognised as great. Now he's no longer background static to his family but instead background static to Harry and Hermione.

He was really proud at first, always fiddling with the badge and trying to see it. I hadn't thought about it. But he did really want that and they did constantly undermine him. In a friendly way, of course. Unintentionally, just growing out of their opinion of him. And then he did just give it up.

People toss around the idea that Ron will be the next Peter and I never really give much credance to it, but I can see it more and more. He isn't treated the way Sirius and James treated Peter. But it's not as far off as I'd thought.

About Dumbledore's comment: I wasn't really so offended by that because I considered it private. I didn't think Dumbledore was announcing this to the world at large or that he expected Harry to repeat it to anyone. He was just trying to reassure Harry, privately. It is a problem if he meant it, though. I don't think Harry really deserved to be prefect like everyone assumed. Maybe it is, in the end, actually because he's too busy but he's never shown an interest in school rules or school goings-on (besides quidditch). He shouldn't be put in charge of other students and he's never really shown an interest in such a thing. Now in OotP he does become a teacher and leader of sorts, and that's pretty cool, but such qualities weren't in evidence before the DA when prefects were chosen.

I'm not really sure why everyone thought he would be prefect. Just because he's famous? He's not the best student. He's not the most responsible, by far. Why would he be prefect? Or are prefects simply chosen by who stands out the most, no matter what the fashion? Which would explain why Draco and Pansy are prefects. Hermione is pissed at who's a prefect when she sees the company she's in and maybe there's some truth to that--she wasn't chosen for her prefect-ness (of which she has an overabundance) but for other reasons.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I have a similar reaction to Dumbledore's words. I think part of it is it's just so *unnecessary.* I mean, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever for Harry to feel he deserves to be prefect--as evidenced by the fact that if he'd showed up at Hogwarts and seen that Dean was prefect he proabably would barely have registered it. He's never once wanted the position. The problem is just when his friends both get these badges and he honestly starts to think, "Well, I wouldn't want to be prefect but if somebody was going to be it...Ron?" That's a perfectly fine reaction for Harry to have, but one would think that if you were going to make it a big point in the book then Harry would eventually see that Ron did have some skill at it. He wouldn't have to decide Ron was better than he was, but it would be nice for him to be able to honestly wish Ron well in the job and feel like it's not so bad it wasn't given to him.

Instead it's like his worst impulses are confirmed for no reason. I guess it's just it seems that a *normal* headmaster, one who wasn't invested in making this one student personally happy so he would really like him, would probably see that it was far more important for Harry to be able to live with a minor disappointment then reassure him that he's still the most special. It would be one thing if Dumbledore was saying that to a different student--Ron himself, for instance. Because there a little suggestion that he really was the best would mean something. But with Harry it's basically just the status quo. He's *still* the best at everything.

It's nothing like saying it publically, I agree. But I still think it's out of line because now Harry has this humiliating secret about Ron--see, it's not just about Harry, it's about his friend too. It's nice of Harry not to tell Ron, but it also reinforces the inequality of their positions. And of course Harry *could* tell Ron in the future, couldn't he? One angry argument with Ron pulling rank and I'd bet Harry would snap out, "only because Dumbledore thought I was too busy. He told me himself." Just like when Harry threw the badge at Ron in GoF and snapped that Ron should be pleased because maybe he'd have a scar now.

I guess if the prefect position is based just on fame Harry would deserve it--certainly Pansy and Draco and even Ernie appear to just be students that know most of the people in their house and are sort of leaders. Hermione isn't really a leader that way (she has trouble making friends) but she's a different type of leader you can see being prefect.