Prettyveela's Poll - long!

[sistermagpie]

prettyveela has put up a poll here asking people to pick a side in various HP canon conflicts. As usual I have trouble actually picking a side, but I did eventually vote in all of them. What I keep thinking about after doing it, though, is not which side I chose but exactly why I picked one or the other. All the situations are so different that although it seems like it should be easy to come up with rules for all of them, that's not what happened. Reading the comments it wasn't usual to for instance, see two situations judged in ways that seemed completely opposite (I do it too). In situation A X acted with malice but Y was really stupid! So Y is at fault. But in situation B Y was stupid but X acted with malice. So X is at fault.



You can see the canon quotations for each conflict in the original post, so I'll just name it by incident. I seem to have the most to say about Percy and Arthur.

Arthur vs. Percy
I've always been totally with Percy on this one even though it's a fight and probably both say things they don't mean. Part of it is probably that I don't see any reason Percy couldn't have been promoted on his own merits (at least he deserved to be) while I see truth in some of the criticisms Percy has for Arthur. But probably it's more that I feel like there's more at stake for Percy in the scene, and that it's more painful for him to be yet again dismissed as foolish while Arthur should be able to deal with Percy's criticism. But of course not actually reading the fight it’s hard to how it went down.

Maybe beyond that there's something satisfying to me in Percy challenging the Happy Weasley Family myth. Not that I think they're a hotbed of discontent, but especially in GoF I feel like there is real hostility directed towards Percy and it's just unspoken. The Twins always have their jokes as an easy cover for aggression--any questions of why they always go after Percy because he doesn't think it's funny just show one doesn't have a sense of humor. Arthur, too, is in a comfortable position. I don't think he likes Percy much. He loves him, of course, as his son, but I think he possible doesn't care for him much personality-wise. But it's easy for him to just brush him off and laugh when the Twins joke with him instead of really dealing with him.

I don't mean to paint Percy as some big-eyed toddler pulling on Arthur's coattails for attention and getting ignored. I just mean...well, Percy is the son who followed in Arthur's footsteps and he does seem to want to be able to bond with him as one Ministry Official to another. I think Percy probably really is disturbed by the way Arthur works, and Arthur doesn't appreciate that judgment. But maybe even more than that again I like Percy being a squeaky wheel in the family. Arthur's got 7 kids and 6 of them seem to do nothing but bring glory to his name. Sure there are moments where they misbehave, like the one time he yells at the twins for Mugglebaiting. But in general the family all agrees with Molly's view that Arthur is very talented and is only held back by prejudice, they don't complain about being short of money much, understanding that it would hurt their parents (though they may be focused on making it themselves). Harry fits in completely here, since that's a natural way to show affection for him too.

So Arthur seems like he's generally very proud and pleased with all his kids. He's really only got one child with whom there's a problem (personally as well as politically), and he doesn't handle it well. I'd say the way he deals with Percy goes along with his basic personality--he's a bit passive, doesn't much like that kind of conflict. When Percy challenges him openly (and while I hate to use "all teenagers are like that!" as an excuse for anything because it's not, many parents have faced similar outbursts from kids, and worse) Arthur's just as stubborn. Of course there’s the political stuff too, but I can’t help think the way of dealing with the politics has more to do with the personalities.

I can't help but feel like that fight is less about what's going on in the moment than years of building resentment which, imo, Percy is far more aware of than Arthur, who would have preferred to keep telling himself he had no problems with Percy. So given Arthur's mostly smooth-sailing experience as a parent yeah, I think he could make the effort. Percy's brought the anger of the entire family but Molly down on his head, something I think he did knowingly, but still I think he knows it's 7 against 1 for him (as Percy may have felt it's been for a long time). So yeah, if Arthur wants to be such a great dad he can actually reach out to a son with whom he has a painful, troubled relationship. That's part of parenting too. And I think I get some satisfaction out of Percy blowing the lid off the whole thing.

Snape vs. MWPP in the Pensieve
Pretty much everything that happens in the scene happens because James makes it happen, and all of Snape's reactions are fairly predictable.

Hermione vs. Umbridge-the Centaurs
As bizarre (but in character) as it is for Hermione to in retrospect treat this like all she did was make Umbridge look bad at her job, and despite Hermione's strange (but also totally in character) decision to walk past a roomful of people who could help them with Umbridge in favor of her more elaborate Centaur plan, I still go with Umbridge on this one. Hermione is acting defensively in improvising her plan, and once they meet the Centaurs Umbridge provokes them on her own. Hermione might have foreseen that Umbridge would do that, but it's definitely a situation where Umbridge had the ability to see a reason to keep her mouth shut and chose not to do so.

Of course this doesn't leave out Hermione's culpability for her own problems in the scene, for which she is responsible for deciding to use the Centaurs as a goon squad. And she puts herself in that situation partly by overreaching and needing to go for the fabulous secret Hermione plan, which goes beyond being desperate to help Harry.

Ginny and Ron's fight in HBP
This one doesn't really feel like anything about blame, it's just a fight between a brother and sister. Which Ron starts so he's responsible for that, but I think Ginny's response is OTT and comes from her own issues, not his. It's interesting to me sometimes that Ron is faulted mostly for almost calling Ginny a slut as opposed to Ron almost using the word slut. He claims he's worried that other people will call her...something he himself doesn't say. He seems to be voicing the common attitude in the Weasley house to me (we've already gotten Molly's "Scarlet Woman" comment, and the twins, too, offer judgments on how many boyfriends are too many). Just in general when I read the scene I felt like Ginny's anger came out of someplace else or was just too much. So while Ron gets responsibility for speaking up to begin with, Ginny's escalation seems to be more her own thing than something Ron couldn't help but provoke.

Sirius vs. Snape-The Prank
This is one where Snape seems to be getting some points for being stupid and for trying to get MWPP in trouble. To me it's more like the first MWPP scene. Sirius sets things in motion to happen exactly the way they do (save for Snape being saved). I don't think the werewolf was a foreseeable consequence for Snape in taking the bait. There are certain limits within which students expect to operate, and Sirius' deciding to make the thing deadly is all his own. Snape could have been expecting something, just not that. Also, on the "Snape is stupid" side, we probably have to see exactly how this was done to see how stupid it was. As people have pointed out, Snape knows Sirius means him no good, so why listen to him? Sirius must have taken that into account when placing the bait.

Harry vs. Draco - Sectumsempra
I love that this one's neck and neck. It's what makes it a cool scene. Draco starts the fight and escalates it with Crucio, though for once Draco's starting the fight is understandable even to Harry, so for once Harry isn't actually angry at Malfoy when he's fighting him. It's Draco who's desperate and emotional in the fight, not Harry. I know a lot of people think Crucio makes it Draco's fault, full stop, and there's been some interesting discussions about which is worse, Crucio or Sectumsempra. ( I can't help but feel that Crucio thrown by teenaged boys (Harry or Draco) isn't the same as the one thrown by Bellatrix. It's a spell where you want to throw your pain at someone else and make them hurt. Draco's not in a sadistic slow torture state of mind in the bathroom any more than Harry is at the end of OotP.) So while Draco still escalates the fight in using it and so causes Harry to reach for the spell he does, I don't think it explains away Sectumsempra completely.

I guess because the Sectumsempra comes not out of just that moment in the fight but the whole HBP storyline. Harry's been wanting to use it, he knows the Prince's spells always offer just what they promise, only better. This is why I don't agree with the defense that as far as Harry knew the spell might have been another toenail grower--Harry knows the Prince and goes to the spell because in a moment of desperation he trusts him to end the fight for him by taking care of his enemy. If there was any true thought in his mind that the spell wasn’t incapacitating why use it to stop a Crucio? The results of Sectumsempra are so surprising to everyone involved I can't see it as a predictable result of Draco starting the fight. It's imo intentionally different in that way from the train hexings and beat down in OotP. So while Draco starts the fight, Harry's decision to reach for Sectumsempra was all his own.

Sirius' Death - Dumbledore, Bellatrix, Harry or Sirius?
There's a lot of things that get everyone where they are in that scene, but I don't feel like there's any reason to go back any further than two people facing off with one killing the other. This is another malice vs. stupid one. Yes, Sirius was arrogant, but Bellatrix did what she meant to do and it worked. The actions of other people like Kreacher, Harry and Dumbledore may have been part of getting them to that place, but there were plenty of chances to go a different way even with them. With Percy and Arthur the fight seems to actually be about the past, so it's more relevant.

Phew! So that's all of them--I don't know if there's a pattern. The first one seems like I'm just emotionally leading towards one more than the other, with maybe a side of seeing Arthur has having always had more power in his house and having more responsibility as the father. Most of the others are mostly thinking about which person took actions in order to reach the outcome that happened and whether the results were predictable enough that I thought they should have been considered by everyone involved. And then there's the Ron/Ginny fight, where it's more emotional again, figuring out what's really motivating the different characters and what results they are trying for with what they say. Also remembering how many other options the person ignored in order to go for the thing they chose. For instance, saying that Hermione or Harry had to do something in their scenes is not necessarily justification for whatever they did.

Conclusion: it's hard to place blame in verbal fights, even if you side more with one side of the argument or think one person's meaner than the other.

Comments

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I really wonder, almost-- like... okay, in the real world, there are lots of repercussions to this that aren't just on Harry's conscience-- like, Draco doesn't just get sent off to Madam Pomfrey and 'fixed', he stays in the hospital for awhile, there's some sort of outside investigation besides a grumpy professor-- but when you -can- fix it physically easily enough (at least when caught quickly? I dunno), it's like... it's (almost!) Just One Of Those Things, like the Buckbeak and the sliming and playing sports with deadly weapons (...Bludgers, I mean... that ain't no football). I'm not excusing anything, just saying that maybe he needs to get more in touch with what 'life' and 'death' really are, because at this point they're both playing around with Crucio like it's just a -really- badass spell and hell, Harry used Sectumsempra like that too.

Even when someone -did- die on him (well, Sirius, granted, wasn't his fault), I don't think he fully dealt with it or knew how to. Neither Harry nor Draco seem to fully have a clue that dead really means dead, though Draco -was- stressed. In a way, it makes perfect sense that he would file it away under 'Yet Another Malfoy Incident', because both of them have been escalating in intensity with a sort of blithe denial of where it all leads-- and even by the end, we get a sort of -beginning- on Draco's part but in no way a full realization of 'oh wait, life and death and I don't want to pick which one for someone'. Or something.

Like, he sort of knows killing Voldy is going to be a 'Big Deal', but the people who make the prospect torture Harry in fanfic are totally off, I think. It's totally not real to him yet in an odd way, even though he keeps seeing death. There are a bunch of issues, maybe, besides just Malfoy if he were to deal with his awareness of his role in terms of assuming responsibility-- there's Cedric and Sirius and Dumbledore and his parents and Voldemort, and I think it's inter-related, at least within his head. Like, maybe that's why he skims over it, too? Dumbledore even encouraged him; maybe if he dwelled too much before he was ready to deal, he couldn't do what he 'has' to or something. Well, according to Dumbledore, haha.

Just, the bit about 'almost killing someone' being a big deal... that set me off thinking. He certainly -thinks- he knows it is, but at the same time, this is a cocoon/denial thing that extends way beyond Draco, probably.

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Interesting thought! You could have something there.

So, okay, Harry can realise and then be horrified. That would fully satisfy me. (And even, you know, Draco could maybe help! Since I do think that he's much further along the Dead is Dead road than Harry, probably since had Katie or Ron died, he would've been a killer. And I do think that the wand he lowered is enough in a 'don't want to pick which one' way. Because the right action is there. He doesn't pick which one, even if he hasn't thought it all out yet.)

Still, I think I would like Harry to tell Draco he didn't mean it all the same. Partly because Draco must totally believe Harry is a stone cold killer at this point. And in a choice between Side of the Stone Cold Killer Who Probably Doesn't Have Personal Feelings About Me Aside from Being Peeved at My Dad, and Side of the Stone Cold Killer Who Definitely Hates Me and Eviscerated Me That One Time, I'd go with the former. Which. Eeek.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hahah, do you really think so? My first thought (if Draco does think Harry's equivalent to Voldemort in the killer dept) that he's a) overreacting & b) still sort of naive ^^;;; Also it seems unlikely he'd be -scared- of Harry the same way one's scared of Voldemort-- even if Harry did hurt him a lot, he's still... Harry Potter, y'know, that dork that gets too much attention. And Voldemort is still... that scary dude with no nose who his dad works for. It's like, if Draco really saw Harry as this big threat, they have bigger problems than what Harry might say or not say ('cause why would Draco believe him? if he's already making these big-ass assumptions and things....)

Plus, errr, well, 'didn't mean' what? I guess he could say 'well, I didn't know what that spell did... uh, sorry about that', but we know he wanted to use the 'spell for Enemies'. Draco, likewise, wanted to use his own version of the 'spell for Enemies' (like, would he have used Sectumsempra if he knew it?? why not?) Anyway, what I mean is, my desire to have Harry deal with it is mostly for Harry's sake, 'cause I don't see him maturing without realizing some things, and also it would help in his interactions with Draco; as far as -saying- anything... well, first they would actually have to have a normal halfway sincere conversation... like, in canon, ahahahah. So I'm hoping for at least some sort of roundabout acknowledgement, but nothing to reassure Draco directly. Can you imagine reassured!Draco in book 7? Heh.

Plus, the other thing is, that Harry was probably progressed as far as Draco (ie, he'd never -raise- that wand against someone not threatening his life in the first place) with Intent To Kill since year one; so in a way Draco lowering it isn't progressing him past Harry but rather to some sort of normal stage ^^;; Harry's problem doesn't seem to be what I'd call 'basic ethics' and more... the loopholes he seems to find when he thinks someone is 'Up To No Good'. Like, a teenage hero's developing conscience is different than a bully who's growing up fast (to painfully simplify things)... so like, they're not even using the same scale, probably. Maybe what's 'enough' for Draco is much less than what would be 'enough' for Harry, then, what with all the stuff he needs to know to battle The Most Evil Wizard and survive & feel the Love Vibe, etcetc.

Hm, I'd also say that being able to pick between Harry & Voldemort is one of those basic ethical choices one should be able to make, little more advanced than 'don't kill the helpless old wizard' :> In canon, also, I doubt Draco would end up joining Harry's side, per se, anyway, especially not because he had a change of heart about Harry (or vice versa) :))

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

I utterly and completely disagree with you.

Dude, I think if someone ripped me open and but for outside intervention I would've bled out on a bathroom floor, I'd presume they were trying to kill me. I'd also presume they knew what the spell meant because - how the hell is Draco supposed to know Harry has a mystery book with enigmatic spells in it? They've always known what spells do before. I see absolutely no reason to assume Draco doesn't think Harry meant to do it. And thus that Harry, dork or not, meant to kill him. I don't think it's a big-ass assumption at all, I think it's perfectly reasonable. And it neeeds to be addressed.

I'd agree about the basic ethics, actually, but since Draco can help (by uh, being human) to show Harry's loopholes as often bullshit, my point that he could help stands! ... though point taken on Harry being nobody's assassin unless they are trying to kill him, sure.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, with regard to whether Draco thought Harry was meaning to kill him-- I don't know! It's a hard call to be sure about; I was just talking about how that would then translate into comparisons with Voldemort. This reminds me of the Sirius-and-Snape thing, actually-- 'cause basically, Sirius tried to kill Snape, right. And this was a cause to be even more hateful towards him, but it didn't seem like Snape was thereafter -terrified- of Sirius, just because... (probably) they know each other & have this long history, this build-up which then explodes into extreme violence. Like in those gang movies, y'know? It becomes sad and seriously dangerous, and this is probably a really bad comparison, but it's like Harry & Draco are rival gang leaders, ahahah. They had this huge showdown/fight and it got too much to handle for both of them, but it's not the -same- as the Really Scary Mafia Boss with the semi-automatics and the hired killers and the history of casual murder, etc. Certainly Draco's likely to be a lot more wary now, but you could even spin it that he'd be more respectful, too; certainly, he almost convinced himself he could 'spin' the thing with Voldemort in book 6, whom he must've been afraid of from the start. It's hard for me to be certain about it, so I'm just guessing.

All I meant was yeah-- not denying he could easily assume Harry meant to kill him, but Harry is still -Harry-, and what that means in that context, to them, isn't necessarily what it would mean for normal English boys their age. They were in a very serious fight, and Draco himself was revved up at least -believing- he could and would kill-- so Harry being 'a killer' wouldn't be such a big deal (at least, it's possible to spin that way). I mean, they're both caught up in some serious shit in book 6, telling themselves they can handle it-- and Draco only folds at the end, post-Sectumsempra. He still tries, after his own brush with death.

A different question is, what evidence is there that Draco would assume Harry -wouldn't- try to hurt him at that point? After he threw his lot in with the Death Eaters, he must've known he was setting himself up for a lot of serious danger if that were found out-- the stakes were life and death, which is why he was so stressed, right? I could even see him running through different scenarios where Harry found out & went after him and he'd show Harry & beat him. It's not like Draco's the hunted victim and Harry's big 'knife' spell is enough to make him the next Dark Lord. Draco must've seen enough things by then-- like Greyback and Bellatrix and so on. His -father- is a stone cold killer... the boy must have -some- coping mechanism, some way of focusing more on whose side he's on and less on who's the big bad killer, unhealthy though that is?

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

I don't think Lucius is a stone cold killer at all. His only murder attempt we see is enormously at a remove: I think he'd probably hate getting his hands dirty, as it were.

Also I think death at this point is totally deglamourised for Draco. He can't kill and doesn't seem to want to, he's shaky that someone got hurt or killed (Bill) in the attack. He knows he can't spin things with Voldemort, and now the leader of the opposing side to Voldemort has shown himself (however ethically superior to Voldemort he is, I'm not saying Draco thinks he is Voldemort) as likely to shoot on sight. There can be no rapprochment to the side of good if Draco thinks Harry is just as ready to kill him, if not more, than Voldemort.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I agree that someone has to make Draco feel safe-- I mean, it doesn't have to be Harry 'cause Harry has other things to do (like look for Horcruxes?) but... someone, surely. I mean, in that sense, it's not as if it's really Voldemort or Harry? And... it's definitely true that it's deglamourized -now-, but would he also rethink everything that's happened and his reactions/motivations at the time? Would he change his basic attitude to Harry based on his present misgivings? I don't know, but just in terms of what's likely in canon, probably not, I guess? It would introduce a whole new level of difficulty, anyway, plus the -weirdness- factor of Draco being afraid of him. Like, seriously afraid of him, like he wouldn't think the history of mutual conflict and escalating violence -matters- anymore, like Harry really became more dangerous. If that did happen, it seems a more serious issue than something Harry could fix with an apology, you know, because it's a whole reaccessment of Harry and who Draco thinks he is and who Draco thinks -Draco- is. I could go several different ways with Draco's precise state of mind post-HBP, and it's especially up in the air regarding Harry. Possibly they'll have some important interaction that'll explain both their motivations to the other one more... actions speak louder than words & all. Also, Harry's not so good with having the right words, and it seems even more of a long shot with Draco.

I'm totally undecided on where I think Draco's going in canon, though-- obviously he'll have to choose, but what form that'll take and what plot contrivance will play into it is all fuzzy. Knowing JKR, it -would- be a plot contrivance... more to do with need and protection and such than with Draco being outright heroic or in a position to make completely his own decisions with this whole thing. Like, there's a limit to how much of a pure choice this is-- there's a lot of necessity at play, too. Plus Draco's a lot more likely to be helped by the Order or by another professor or Snape than by Harry, who's just another kid, basically. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he was like 'no Voldemort but also no Potter' :>

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Okay, see. Voldemort is the leader of one side. Harry is the leader of the other. They're the ones who are going to face off. Draco is either going to have to pick a side or fuck off to Switzerland (which I would find a fine sensible thing to do, but it wouldn't make a very good story). The whole wizarding world is looking to Harry to do this: no Potter and no Voldemort is not an option.

I don't think he has to like Harry, or have Harry be the chief agent who saves him or makes him feel safe. But 1) Draco has every reason to assume Harry meant to kill him, and 2) now Draco has done much worse things than the last time he thought Harry totally meant to kill him. Only a complete idiot would ever go near the side of someone who meant to kill you. Voldemort is the better choice at this point because Voldemort has only threatened him and not tried to kill him. Thus Draco needs to understand that Harry was not trying to kill him, or Draco cannot possibly under any circumstances join a side that, however far he positioned himself from Harry, needs Harry as leader, in place to kill Voldemort.

Harry must have become more dangerous in Draco's eyes. Draco knows by now he can't kill: apparently, Harry can, and without hesitating. It's absolutely impossible for their relationship to remain unchanged - not that the stuff before can be discounted, but an actual murder attempt is a whole 'nother level. It can't help but change his attitude to Harry. He didn't try to kill Harry when he had Harry helpless. He knows who he is. And leaving fear aside, it's common sense to stay far, far away from someone who tried to kill you.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Okay, okay! Heh. ^^;; You're a lot more sure than I am, and I'm just like, 'well, we'll see!' and not taking a big stand-- especially about Draco's psyche-- so I'm willing to simply er, yield on this :))

But I did check HBP, and Draco 'wheeled around' when Harry came in and drew his wand-- Harry pulled out his own 'instinctively' and Draco hexed him. Then Harry slipped and Draco (seeming angry) started to cry 'Crucio', and then Harry interrupted him with what was basically a killing spell (though he didn't know, but whatever). So unless he remembers this differently, this is a situation where a) he started the fight (no matter that Harry was 'asking for it' by intruding); b) he escalated the curses to serious stuff. Is this consistent with someone who is really out for his life in other types of circumstances?

I guess it's equivalent to pulling out a bigger (more deadly) weapon in a middle of what's already a knife fight-- like, pulling out a bigger knife when there's a switchblade involved or something. But not a gun or something that kills immediately (with one shot). In that situation, that seems to be different (as in, manslaughter-- as part of a violent encounter-- but not an attempt at calculated murder). Unlike the incident where Harry was defenseless on the train and Draco only stomped on him, this is part of a mutual fight, and Harry was on the defensive-- still not an -excuse-, but a different situation that may at least alleviate the 'threatened murder' thing.

At least, that's where I'm coming from-- it's like, even if Draco thought Harry knew it was a killing-level curse, that's still not the -same- as a premeditated attempt on his life that would apply in general. Draco may not realize that-- you may be right!-- I just see a lot fuzziness in Draco's reaction so I'm open to a variety of resolutions, that's all! ^^;

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

I am sure, and thus I will go on to argue that I think this situation is equivalent to pulling out and shooting a gun when the other person has pulled a knife.

Now, obviously, the situation is somewhat different if (stretches analogy) Harry has no idea what a gun is or what it does but apparently pulling this trigger will solve his problems! I must stress that I do not blame Harry any more than Draco for his actions in the bathroom. (After the bathroom I do, but proceeding onwards.)

Because the 'gun' would've killed pretty much immediately. With one shot (spell). If Snape hadn't been there, and Draco knows for damn sure Harry didn't plan on Snape being there. The description of Draco in the bathroom scene was of someone who was bleeding out. One shot - dead - gun.

Moreover! Okay, Draco pulled his wand first. Absolutely. Not that I blame him for it, since Harry is standing there staring at him and Draco can't know he's shocked and rooted to the spot: in Draco's mind he's spying and he is quite possibly entertained by the spectacle. Draco was hysterical at the time and being caught crying like a sissy girl by your schoolboy nemesis must have been utterly and horrifyingly humiliating, and Draco is very proud even when not already hysterical. Call it the first punch. A flurry of hexes are exchanged on both sides, shattering lamps, jinx blocking, etc. Call them punches. Then Harry (accidentally, we know, but Draco cannot possibly know) floods the bathroom floor, making things slippery. Which escalates things itself. Call it - actually, call it making the floor slippery and dangerous, I have no more analogies.

At which point Draco says Crucio. Well, what does Draco know about Crucio? What Harry, and thus presumably Draco, learned in class in fourth year: an inexperienced user isn't likely to be able to do it. I'm not saying that Draco doesn't want to hurt Harry (I'm sure he does) but somewhere in the back of his mind he must know that, great and hateful though the gesture is, it's unlikely to do much. Call it brandishing a knife anyway.

At which point Harry (from Draco's POV) produces the gun and fires, intending to kill.

I'd think, given the fact he was hysterical, mortified to death, furious and then almost died, that his memory probably isn't great. Probably the salient details as he recalls them are: Potter spied on (and probably laughed at him) crying, and then when Draco tried to Avenge His Honour he tried to murder him. But even if he is fully aware of all the details that went down, it still looks like if Harry sees him as any sort of threat, Harry will kill him immediately and brutally. Given that he let the Death Eaters into Hogwarts, he is a threat. He doesn't know Harry knows anything about his wavering on the tower, so he'd assume Harry considers him an active threat. And he thinks, on evidence I think that from Draco's POV is pretty indisputable, that Harry will kill him.

He'd have to be a raving imbecile to go near Harry's side without being told this is not, and was not, the case.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well... that is... certainly a very thorough picture-- a lot more thorough that I had, anyway. It sounds plausible, but, I mean, we have no way to -know- because so many threads are still dangling, right? Plus there's the fact that JKR tends to put more priority on whatever plot threads there are and how Draco & Harry would figure into them rather than making sure Draco (or even Harry) as a character is having all his i's dotted or what have you.... I mean, it may be stupid or scary or he may not want to, but he may theoretically still wind up -having- to-- or having the choice taken away from him in some other way, like having Voldemort threatened him more directly than Harry (for whatever reason), having something happen that forces Draco's-- Harry's-- or Snape's-- hand, and just a myriad of outside factors that could unbalance the equation. But then I never really feel comfortable predicting canon anyway, haha.

You've got a point in that it's certainly arguable it -was- a gun-- but even given that, I'm not sure that the repercussions are clear-cut, I guess? Ideally, I guess, the situation would be that both of them are more open to reason post-HBP-- I have no great certainty, but there's hope. What form the final reaccessments will take-- I can't agree or disagree on any scenario, but it would definitely help Draco's peace of mind to have Harry explain what was going on-- though the likelihood of that happening is another question. It might! It would be more certain if this was a Draco-centric or even character-centric narrative, I guess?

But I totally yield ^^;; Eep. I don't want to argue it because, if anything, I have like, no real stand (except possibly indecisiveness)! Also, the thing is that almost every book, JKR pulls a fast one of -some- sort with the main players' characterizations-- and since Draco will probably have some serious role, I expect to be somewhat surprised (though in that 'in retrospect it made sense, what with this new info' sort of way). I mean, Snape could decide he'll strike out on his own and take Draco with him. Lucius could die and leave Draco in the lurch somehow. Draco could be outright caught by the Order; hell, Draco could be caught by a lot of people, and then these various things can rearrange his priorities and needs yet again, y'know?

Though there'll probably be some point at which both Harry & Draco realize they were too worked up over each other, or something, one way or another :> Perhaps even by that point it would be moot; regardless there's no way to prove anything like that right or wrong yet. I for one, of course, would be all for Harry and Draco both talking it out, even though the way it is in my head is just a liiiitle too shippy to be plausible :>

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Hee, it's very seldom that I am decided enough about something (i.e., that to Draco it must look like a deliberate murder attempt) to argue it for ever and ever and ever and totally spam sistermagpie's comments page. (Sorry, Magpie!)

It's certainly true that Draco could be like, kidnapped and thus without choices, and have to go with the flow, but that'd be a total cop-out in a story where choices seem to be so important. *crosses fingers and prays*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...for some reason this made me think of weatherby's old H/D vid (http://expecto-patronum.inkubation.net/temp/somethingobscure.wmv), what with the lion eating Pierre and all :D :D :D *coughs* I just couldn't resist :>