![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
So Salon.com did article on Phoenix Rising here.
There were two bits in particular that made me think and want to response.
The first quote was this:
I was interested in this common idea that the female characters are cut outs--though basically this author is just having her first experience running into people who don't like her favorite character. Hey, my favorite character gets called a "little cumstain"--I feel your pain. Get used to it.
My feeling on the female characters is that no, they're not cardboard--at least no more than any other character is. JKR writes all her characters basically the same way. I remember someone wonderfully once saying that listen, Snape was cardboard too--he was just very thick cardboard. Rowling seems to generally create characters around a central conflict, and writes them in a way that they can pop off the page right away. (My favorite example of how well she does this will probably always be Amos Diggory in GoF--he gets one scene early on that sets up just how devastated he's going to be hundreds of pages later. I can't read his first scene now without thinking: ouch.)
What I would say about the female characters in general is just that the male characters tend to...drive the story more, somehow, often by being fuck-ups. People have noticed, for instance, how Lily is "better" than James, but that this sort of just leads to Saint Lily saving Harry while James gets to make things happen and be a far more dynamic character even while acting like a dick.
Of the main student girl characters, for instance, Luna is no less developed than Barty Crouch or Neville, but she's a bit self-contained. She's weird, and appears to be comic relief for Harry and get him in the Quibbler. Ginny is one character whose characterization I do have issues with, but leaving that aside as strong a character as she has, she's basically again self-contained and appears to support Harry. Even with her experience with Voldemort in CoS, she doesn't drive things.
Hermione's an even more interesting case. She's a major character, and she's got plenty of issues and drives and flaws and strengths. But still, she's self-contained. For instance, compare her to Sirius. Sirius pulled a stupid Prank on Snape. This Prank is still driving a lot of things in the plot. He and Snape are still bristling at each other, creating tension. Harry himself is affected by this Prank. He circles back to it in OotP and in Snape's Pensieve learns more about the relationship again. It's very personal and still happening.
Hermione, by contrast, is far more efficient but also--I keep using this word self-contained, but I just really mean that if you're looking at the story of the books she's not taking actions that go all over the place, but ones that have limited effects. For instance, while Sirius pulled one bad Prank on Snape with bad results, Hermione has faced a number of female adversaries and taken care of all of them in a way that is so far totally efficient. She and Rita clashed in GoF, and Hermione took care of her--so much that in the next book she controlled Rita to write the article in the Quibbler. So far, at least, her relationship with Rita does not seem to be as messy as Sirius/Snape. Likewise, Hermione hated Umbridge and took care of her with the centaurs (with some luck involved--her planning wasn't so great there). Marietta ratted out the DA and Hermione's curse took effect. These events don't have the same emotional impact as the more dramatic emotional clashes between the Marauders and Snape or Barty and Barty Jr. or whoever.
Also it's Harry who is the one to deal with a lot of these things. Harry is angry to see Umbridge at the funeral, and presumably Hermione still hates her, but it's not making the plot sprawl out or creating ugly emotional fall-out. We've never even heard about Hemrione's reaction to her own hex on Marietta. It's Harry who has a fight with Cho, which partly encourages him to go into the Pensieve, which leads to his learning of Snape's Worst Memory.
So while I do think there is often a troubling dismissal of women in slash fandom, it actually doesn't surprise me that people are more interested in male/male relationships within the story. I remember asking![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
jlh once why Sirius/Remus was considered so canon when everyone talked about Sirius/James being best friends, and she said because Sirius/Remus was the relationship with the conflict and the betrayal. I think that perhaps something that draws people to female characters less in terms of stories is that they're just less messy. Their roles in the story often are as helpers to men--which doesn't have to be a bad thing. Ron helps Harry too, and that doesn't make him subservient. (But I think also there's a reason that as much as many people hated the Traitor!Ron trend, Ron's character could support such an ugly personal betrayal in ways I don't think Hermione's does as much.)
I don't hate het. It's just I can see why there's often more to work with with male characters. It's not that there aren't interesting dynamics between any m/f characters. (I love Draco/Pansy, and Pansy is also a character more there for support.) I just wonder if that is more what people mean when they casually say the females are cardboard and the men aren't.
Okay, I was going to go on to the fanfic part next, but maybe it should be two posts. There's tl;dr and then there's wtl;dbf (way too long; died before finishing)
There were two bits in particular that made me think and want to response.
The first quote was this:
At this point, the "prefect" in charge of the room for the night, a writer who calls herself Fyrdrakken and who'd been knitting quietly through the readings and interview, piped up to offer, "Some of the women are cardboard caricatures. A lot of people don't like Hermione at all. She is self-righteous and kind of creepy." Maudlin nodded.
Hermione? A cardboard cutout? The smartest in the class, with the frizzy hair and muggle parents, the responsible girl who maintains friendships with the irresponsible boys, the girl who has the good taste to pine not for our dashing hero but for his red-haired, dunderheaded friend? "A lot of people don't like Hermione at all?" This was heartbreaking.
I was interested in this common idea that the female characters are cut outs--though basically this author is just having her first experience running into people who don't like her favorite character. Hey, my favorite character gets called a "little cumstain"--I feel your pain. Get used to it.
My feeling on the female characters is that no, they're not cardboard--at least no more than any other character is. JKR writes all her characters basically the same way. I remember someone wonderfully once saying that listen, Snape was cardboard too--he was just very thick cardboard. Rowling seems to generally create characters around a central conflict, and writes them in a way that they can pop off the page right away. (My favorite example of how well she does this will probably always be Amos Diggory in GoF--he gets one scene early on that sets up just how devastated he's going to be hundreds of pages later. I can't read his first scene now without thinking: ouch.)
What I would say about the female characters in general is just that the male characters tend to...drive the story more, somehow, often by being fuck-ups. People have noticed, for instance, how Lily is "better" than James, but that this sort of just leads to Saint Lily saving Harry while James gets to make things happen and be a far more dynamic character even while acting like a dick.
Of the main student girl characters, for instance, Luna is no less developed than Barty Crouch or Neville, but she's a bit self-contained. She's weird, and appears to be comic relief for Harry and get him in the Quibbler. Ginny is one character whose characterization I do have issues with, but leaving that aside as strong a character as she has, she's basically again self-contained and appears to support Harry. Even with her experience with Voldemort in CoS, she doesn't drive things.
Hermione's an even more interesting case. She's a major character, and she's got plenty of issues and drives and flaws and strengths. But still, she's self-contained. For instance, compare her to Sirius. Sirius pulled a stupid Prank on Snape. This Prank is still driving a lot of things in the plot. He and Snape are still bristling at each other, creating tension. Harry himself is affected by this Prank. He circles back to it in OotP and in Snape's Pensieve learns more about the relationship again. It's very personal and still happening.
Hermione, by contrast, is far more efficient but also--I keep using this word self-contained, but I just really mean that if you're looking at the story of the books she's not taking actions that go all over the place, but ones that have limited effects. For instance, while Sirius pulled one bad Prank on Snape with bad results, Hermione has faced a number of female adversaries and taken care of all of them in a way that is so far totally efficient. She and Rita clashed in GoF, and Hermione took care of her--so much that in the next book she controlled Rita to write the article in the Quibbler. So far, at least, her relationship with Rita does not seem to be as messy as Sirius/Snape. Likewise, Hermione hated Umbridge and took care of her with the centaurs (with some luck involved--her planning wasn't so great there). Marietta ratted out the DA and Hermione's curse took effect. These events don't have the same emotional impact as the more dramatic emotional clashes between the Marauders and Snape or Barty and Barty Jr. or whoever.
Also it's Harry who is the one to deal with a lot of these things. Harry is angry to see Umbridge at the funeral, and presumably Hermione still hates her, but it's not making the plot sprawl out or creating ugly emotional fall-out. We've never even heard about Hemrione's reaction to her own hex on Marietta. It's Harry who has a fight with Cho, which partly encourages him to go into the Pensieve, which leads to his learning of Snape's Worst Memory.
So while I do think there is often a troubling dismissal of women in slash fandom, it actually doesn't surprise me that people are more interested in male/male relationships within the story. I remember asking
jlh once why Sirius/Remus was considered so canon when everyone talked about Sirius/James being best friends, and she said because Sirius/Remus was the relationship with the conflict and the betrayal. I think that perhaps something that draws people to female characters less in terms of stories is that they're just less messy. Their roles in the story often are as helpers to men--which doesn't have to be a bad thing. Ron helps Harry too, and that doesn't make him subservient. (But I think also there's a reason that as much as many people hated the Traitor!Ron trend, Ron's character could support such an ugly personal betrayal in ways I don't think Hermione's does as much.)I don't hate het. It's just I can see why there's often more to work with with male characters. It's not that there aren't interesting dynamics between any m/f characters. (I love Draco/Pansy, and Pansy is also a character more there for support.) I just wonder if that is more what people mean when they casually say the females are cardboard and the men aren't.
Okay, I was going to go on to the fanfic part next, but maybe it should be two posts. There's tl;dr and then there's wtl;dbf (way too long; died before finishing)
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
But I think also there's a reason that as much as many people hated the Traitor!Ron trend, Ron's character could support such an ugly personal betrayal in ways I don't think Hermione's does as much.
That's an interesting point. Given that Ron is my fav character I obviously don't like Traitor!Ron. But most fic seemed to take the easy way out, just make Ron awful. I think Ron would have to feel hugely betrayed by Harry first, probably even more than, say, Harry and Hermione sneaking around behind his back, to ever betray Harry. Ron's least shining moments have stemmed from his feeling betrayed since his fierce loyalty can be a great weakness.
From:
no subject
Usually, though, I just see Ron become this unbelievable jerk often in ways he really isn't. I remember being surprised even in HBP when Luna said Ron was unkind because I think that of the three Ron's actually got the most natural compassion for others. He seems far more used to making room for other peoples' idiocycracies. He can get exasperated with Hermione and all, but I think if I went to school with him I wouldn't consider him a mean guy at all. I love it when he uncovers Hermione's hats so the elves can see what they're picking up.
From:
no subject
I love it when he uncovers Hermione's hats so the elves can see what they're picking up.
I actually wrote more on SPEW but cut it to fit earlier, but I'd like to see some resolution of that arc in DH, either directly with the house elves, or perhaps just noting Hermione campaigned for reform creatures' rights in the future. The setup seems like it should lead somewhere.
I liked Ron's part in that as well. It's kind of interesting because neither of them are really right. Ron feels Hermione's approach is wrong because it ignores what the house elves want, but he's happy enough keeping the status quo. Meanwhile Hermione’s knows slavery is wrong but fails to see Ron’s point. Did she ever even try to discuss the issue with Dobby? He’d be a good place to start. And her approach was so short sighted, as if knitting hats during a school year can overturn hundreds of years of history.
From:
no subject
Good point--and this especially shows, I think, in how they react to the male characters. Even though Hermione's having her own problems with Ron, she's frustrated waiting for him to catch up to where she supposedly already is.
I'm glad you put the supposedly in! I've never fully understood where the idea that Hermione was very mature for her age (or any age) came from. Too often people mistake intelligence for maturity and I think Hermione is in some ways the least emotionally mature member of the Trio.
Your comment hit upon something I found particularly annoying in a story re-telling HBP from Hermione's POV. Basically Hermione started out the fic waiting for Ron to get a clue, spent the whole time waiting, and finished up the fic waiting for him. I like to see some growth of her character, some realization that maybe she handled things poorly or something.
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
I’ve debated this before but Hermione/Krum didn’t quite ring true for me. Not that he’s a bad guy or anything, just that JKR might have put them together because it’s great for plot reasons, and for Ron. But would a real Krum have been interested in her GOF-era? I know he liked that she wasn’t one of the girls chasing after him and they apparently had interesting conversations. But what would the initial draw really be? She’s socially awkward, not extraordinarily attractive, and kind of difficult to initially like. She does have a lot of great qualities but they aren’t necessarily ones I think someone like Viktor would initially see.
Since this touches the subject I wanted to say I really liked your analyses of Ron during the Yule Ball GOF stuff and the prefect situation.
From:
no subject
IMHO, Viktor/Hermione, while being a bit more of a fantasy and less believable than a lot of relationships in the books (and that's saying something, since I think most of the romantic ones seem to fit more into stereotypes) - famous star falls for the bookworm who ignored him has been the plot of umpteen movies and books - seems to be very much a continuation of the way Rowling writes gender relations.
The basic rule seems to be the traditional 'men like to do the chasing in relationships and find a challenge attractive'.
This is sort of summed up by Ginny/Harry since his reactions change depending on her behaviour - her actively pursuing him (albeit at a younger age when he would be much less interested in girls altogether, but still applicable imho) makes him uncomfortable, her ignoring him is what lands her him.
But I think it's present in most of the 'positive' relationships throughout the books - James fell for Lily, the girl who despised him (or acted like it); Ron is almost instantly revolted by Lavender's attentions and pines for Hermione who behaves in much less sexually aggressive ways, while Hermione seems to have worked out years before that she likes him but cannot take any action (the focus is that he needs to 'ask me before someone else does' which makes it even clearer: claim your territory or someone else will. Hermione's feelings are a non-issue, it's all about the men's competition, as it is when Harry is angered by Dean and wonders about whether Ginny will be asked out for someone else - the idea she may choose not to date, or y'know, ask out someone herself isn't a consideration; and as it is when Cedric and Cho date and Harry's feelings for her and at the same time against Cedric intensify); Harry nurtures his crush on Cho for years while she's a faraway dream but is distinctly put off not just by the timing (her grieving Cedric, him being so angry that year) but by her pursuit of him - he worries she'll want to hold his hand, he claims he wouldn't have kissed her if she hadn't started it. Even the Veela, the ultimate in predatory women, are ugly inside.
By contrast, Draco/Pansy, between two more negatively portrayed characters, has the girl being described as much more active than the boy, which maybe continues another trend, that girls or women who are sexually aggressive seemed to be ridiculed by the narrative in a way the more demure aren't - Hepzibah Smith, Myrtle and Merope, for example.
From:
no subject
That makes sense, and I probably shouldn't try and read anything deep in Hermione/Krum.
Interesting thoughts on the romances as they relate to gender. What's additionally interesting is how the Trio's first relationships are used. Harry and Ron both seem to at least have the potential to have learned something from Cho and Lavender as it relates to the type of relationships they might or might not like. Since we see almost nothing of Hermione/Krum it's hard to say what Hermione might have gained from it, beyond knowing that boys can find her attractive. Of course Ron also learned that from Lavender but the potential is there for him to have figured out something more. Even Ginny, for all her flaws, seems to have an awareness by the end of HBP that going out with other boys wasn't really successful in terms of getting over Harry.
From:
no subject
I mean, they both seem like sweet, normal kids - Lavender's never been portrayed as the deepest or smartest, but then Ron isn't particularly himself.
It just seems like the whole relationship was very clearly engineered to show how he and Hermione should be together, even though it does nothing to show their compatibility - it's not like he misses any specific attribute of Hermione's that Lavender doesn't possess, more that other girls are sort of maligned as her inferiors.
(Not to mention the whole nasty tone of using people to get the attention of the person you like or for sexual experience, which JKR pretty much encouraged in her post-book interview and which seems to be present in much of the books: Ron seems to use Lavender, which would be great if she too was into the relationship on that level, but from the brief mentions we get, she seems to be taking it more seriously and liking him more genuinely. Ginny is only ever described as disliking or being miserable around Dean or Michael and imho, pretty much admits in her end speech that she'd hoped dating them would get Harry's attention. Hermione openly considers men who'll make Ron jealous. All of this succeeds.)
It's hard to tell whether it's that the girls are more successful at selecting what they want (especially since their relationships have more of a clinical feeling) and emotional stuff that's described as girls stuff, while the boys are supposed to be comically unaware and messing up Just Like Men; or whether it's also significant that the girls Harry and Ron date are mercilessly ridiculed while the guys Hermione and Ginny date get off pretty light.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:From:
no subject
Sorry, but I have a bit of an opinion on Mature!Hermione, which is that maturity comes in different flavors. A gifted kid, which Hermione clearly is, can seem very mature when dealing with adults, but be terribly awkward around her peers. Hermione's used to the somewhat formal, role-governed interactions that come with teachers and other grown-ups, but she's not so good at making friends beyond Harry, Neville (sorta) and the siblings Weasley. She's modeling adult behavior instead of peer behavior with her bossiness/swottiness; very similar to Percy, actually, which is probably why they got along so well for as long as they did.
From:
no subject
BTW, I was at PR and saw at the very end at the breakfast that you were there. I'd have introduced myself if I'd seen you sooner since I've really liked every story of yours that I've read, even the Ron/Draco and I see Ron as straight straight. My favs are Alexia and Kriegspiel. And that Ron/Draco where Hermione and Harry are sort of investigating to try and figure out what's going on with Ron is pretty fun.
From:
no subject
Thanks for the kind words about my fic! I wish we had met at PR--ah, well, maybe another convention!
From:
no subject
Anyway, do you mind if I friend you?
(no subject)
From:From:
no subject
From:
no subject
From:
no subject
(I know this is like a week old now).
From:
no subject
The boys won't have a growth moment like that- they're Gryffindors, its brave and honourable! (blech.) Though if Ron gets killed in the next book, I can guess what he'll have just done in the run up to it. As far as I can see, the only children who are brave in a useful way are Neville, and Percy (I know he's in the wrong, but he could easily bend to his family's will to keep the peace, and nobody would blame him for it, especially given how close he is to his mother. But he risks everything in a gamble for either power or simply what he sees as a real place in the world, and I respect that.)*
*then again, there's also the wonderful "Red-headed Pimpernel" theories that I hope are right.
From:
no subject
Back to your points about the women being more contained and the men driving the plot more. I think I do agree with it. Ron and Neville’s could be re-told as the hero’s story, but Hermione’s really couldn’t, or at least it’d be quite dull. Her story could be told more as an emotional one, but that’s rare in fic. Even her big arc outside of Harry and Ron, SPEW, ends up just sort of fizzling out.
From:
no subject
But still, it didn't surprise me. I remember thinking jeez, why wouldn't he be receptive to somebody who makes him feel good! Meanwhile Hermione was, I agree, acting just the way you described. That's the reason I know at least one person didn't see R/Hr coming is all she saw was Hermione not returning Ron's crush. (She also doesn't have good relationships with the other girls that we see.)
Even her big arc outside of Harry and Ron, SPEW, ends up just sort of fizzling out.
And so far she's kind of the only one in it. She doesn't really connect with the elves.
From:
no subject
JKR’s comments about that relationship seemed unfortunate as well, as if the only thing to come out of it was Ron becoming worthy of Hermione. There’s no indication that Hermione didn’t have a nice relationship with Krum. Harry didn’t with Cho, understandable given Cedric’s death.
all she saw was Hermione not returning Ron's crush.
Even the R/Hr shippers that thought Ron should have just asked her were way off, IMO. All he ever had to go by was the Yule Brawl and, later, the Party Invite; both could’ve been interpreted in non-romantic ways. I’m pretty curious to see the R/Hr dynamic in DH, actually.
From:
no subject
Even the R/Hr shippers that thought Ron should have just asked her were way off, IMO. All he ever had to go by was the Yule Brawl and, later, the Party Invite; both could’ve been interpreted in non-romantic ways. I’m pretty curious to see the R/Hr dynamic in DH, actually.
Before HBP, whenever this discussion came up, I'd always wonder why, if Hermione had feelings for Ron and knew that he had feelings for her, why didn't she make a move, and I always got answers like "she's an old-fashioned girl" and "it's the guy job to make the moves".
As for Hermione not returning Ron's crush, I felt, from GoF on, that she did, if only because she usually got her knickers in a knot whenever another girl paid attention to him or vice versa. (e.g. his interest in Fleur Delacoeur, Fleur kissing him on the cheek after the Second Task, Padma Patil going out of her way to greet him after the Second Task, Luna Lovegood wishing him luck before a Quidditch match, etc.) I figured it had to be jealousy because the alternative, that her opinion of Ron is so low that the idea of him getting any kind of female attention literally drives her to anger, is just too nasty. IMO, she would have to really hate him, platonically or otherwise, to feel that way. Especially since they are supposed to be friends. The idea that after HBP she would turn out to have been pining for Harry or Draco or someone else the entire time would render her character unforgivable and unredeemable to me.
From:
no subject
if Hermione had feelings for Ron and knew that he had feelings for her, why didn't she make a move, and I always got answers like "she's an old-fashioned girl" and "it's the guy job to make the moves".
As mentioned earlier in the thread somewhere, though she seemed to realize she fancied him she acted as if she was annoyed she did and wanted him to be more mature and grown up and such. I think it fits, if she's comparing Ron to Viktor, Ron in the superficial comes up lacking in some ways during that time period so I can see Hermione being quite annoyed that she feels that way about Ron instead of Viktor, the much more logical-to her-choice.
And she finally does make move, prompted, of course, by Lavender's obvious interest and Ron's seeming receptiveness to it so she is capable of doing so. Though I'm pretty sure if Lavender hadn't come along she'd not have made a move and would have continued treating Ron like she had in OOTP and the first part HBP.
As for Hermione not returning Ron's crush, I felt, from GoF on, that she did, if only because she usually got her knickers in a knot whenever another girl paid attention to him or vice versa.
I agree with you. I was just making the point that Ron didn't have much to go on and the little he had was definitely not a clear ask-the-girl-out message. He didn't necessarily see or understand the times you mentioned where Hermione's jealousy was evident. I think Hermione's response to the perfume Christmas present of OOTP is indicative. She gushes about Harry's present, a book, but merely says something like "The perfume is unusual, Ron" with little apparent enthusiasm. Now I imagine unusual was a polite way of saying terrible, but she dismisses the thought behind the perfume as well, which suggests Ron realizes she is a girl. Taken as a whole, Hermione did nothing that would suggest to Ron he ought to make a move that could potentially damage their friendship.
I figured it had to be jealousy because the alternative, that her opinion of Ron is so low that the idea of him getting any kind of female attention literally drives her to anger, is just too nasty. IMO, she would have to really hate him, platonically or otherwise, to feel that way.
Yeah, that would say absolutely nothing good about Hermione's character. I've even come across some H/Hr shippers that seem to think Hermione's behavior in HBP was driven by frustration at his immaturity.
The idea that after HBP she would turn out to have been pining for Harry or Draco or someone else the entire time would render her character unforgivable and unredeemable to me.
I feel the same. I just unlocked this post from a ship debate thread in which I went through HBP finding all the examples that, taken as a whole, would need a lot of explaining if the series turned out to be H/Hr. If Hermione has been pining away her treatment of Ron is completely horrible and says absolutely nothing good about her character. There is a certain segment of H/Hr shippers that still feel the series will end in H/Hr and that all the R/Hr stuff is a red herring. I don't understand how they would even want Hermione to end up with Harry if she's been that awful to someone she doesn't fancy but supposedly likes as a close friend. Unforgivable and unredeemable are apt words.
From:
no subject
From:
Whee! It posted!