In which I'm again disappointed by JKR explanations

[sistermagpie]

So here's what JKR has recently said about Dumbledore, getting more into his sexuality:

"I had always seen Dumbledore as gay, but in a sense that's not a big deal. The book wasn't about Dumbledore being gay. It was just that from the outset obviously I knew he had this big, hidden secret, and that he flirted with the idea of exactly what Voldemort goes on to do, he flirted with the idea of racial domination, that he was going to subjugate the Muggles. So that was Dumbledore's big secret.

Why did he flirt with that?" she asks. "He's an innately good man, what would make him do that. I didn’t even think it through that way, it just seemed to come to me, I thought 'I know why he did it, he fell in love.' And whether they physically consummated this infatuation or not is not the issue. The issue is love. It's not about sex. So that's what I knew about Dumbledore. And it's relevant only in so much as he fell in love and was made an utter fool of by love. He lost his moral compass completely when he fell in love and I think subsequently became very mistrusting of his own judgment in those matters so became quite asexual. He led a celibate and bookish life."

Clearly some people didn't see it that way. How does she react to those who disagree with a homosexual character in a children's novel? "So what?" she retorts immediately "It is a very interesting question because I think homophobia is a fear of people loving, more than it is of the sexual act. There seems to be an innate distaste for the love involved, which I find absolutely extraordinary. There were people who thought, well why haven't we seen Dumbledore's angst about being gay?" Rowling is clearly amused by this and rightly so. "Where was that going to come in? And then the other thing was-and I had letters saying this-that, as a gay man, he would never be safe to teach in a school."

So this is how a lot of this doesn't fit with my own interpretation. EtA: It's been pointed out to me that this line caused some confusion--I'm not disagreeing with "He is a character that just happens to be gay" or that Rowling concurs with that idea. I'm saying I had a different interpretation of why he'd be attracted to Grindelwald's ideas based on what I read in canon. So I took out the last paragraph of the quote, which wasn't really needed.

As an aside, if Dumbledore is celibate and maybe never consummated his relationship with the evil Gellert, that actually *is* the point according to many people, because as many will explain, the problem isn't having "gay feelings." The problem isn't love. The problem is you're having sex with someone of your gender. If you don't "choose to sin" by actually having sex, you're not entering into that wicked "lifestyle" they don't like. Dumbledore's done just what a gay man is supposed to do according to many anti-gay opinions. It actually is about sex: a-sexual gay men are always more acceptable than sexual ones.

But the weirdest thing here to me is in the second paragraph, where Dumbledore is apparently an "innately good man" who only flirted with essentially *being a Nazi* because he became a "fool for love." This is bizarre to me because frankly, I don't have any trouble trying to figure out why Dumbledore would have flirted with taking over Muggles. This is a guy who's constantly manipulating everyone, thinks he's smarter than everyone else, treats them as pawns that are morally inferior to himself...why on earth would it be hard to imagine him deciding to dominate Muggles "for the greater good?" Of course he would think the answer was having the right people in charge.

But it's disappointing in a familiar way, the way that once again something that seems to be an inherent flaw in a character on the good side that totally mirrors the evil they're fighting, the author wants to make it the fault of the evil characters. Dumbledore's "love" says no more about him than Harry's Voldemort sliver. It takes the blame for unacceptable behavior. Suddenly Dumbledore's real racist tendencies (unlike Snape's) don't come down to his own desires or his own personality. He's acting unlike himself because he's been vaguely "made a fool by love." And love, as we know, is just some random thing that hits you like Cupid's arrow or the author's pen. It's not even presented as something you can analyze in terms of...well, why exactly did you find Hitler so attractive? Doesn't that say something about what calls to you? (Without even getting into the fact that this most poisonous loves is the one gay one.)

The author here seems to be saying that she needed or wanted Dumbledore to have flirted with all of this, but then needn't to figure out why he would do it. Rather than looking at the character and saying, "Ah, I can totally see how this guy would be attracted to this." Instead it "just came to her" that "he fell in love." It's about someone else, something beyond his control. It's about this other person. He "lost" his moral compass because he fell in love (which was beyond his control to begin with)--his compass never truly pointed to this.

Dumbledore himself even agrees! He becomes mistrustful not of his moral compass, not of his own abilities to know right from wrong. No, he becomes asexual, deducing that the problem is that he needs to keep himself pure from others so that he can always be sure he's relying on his own "innately good" moral sense. He's got more reason to keep secrets; he doesn't decide he maybe ought to keep other people around to make sure he's not going down the bad path again. Listening to other people can only be trouble.

Well done, Dumbledore! Way to be morally superior about your own past as a wannabe Nazi!

Comments

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Right, she just tried to stop them like any prefect ought to. There was nothing to suggest that they were friends, or that they knew each other since before Hogwarts. I don't know where the Snape/Lily shippers got their suspicions, but it couldn't have been from Snape's Worst Memory!

Some friend. Even hiding a smile at his predicament. I'd sure not have a friend if I acted that way when my friend needed help. Instead, of course, Snape tried to hang on. It's pretty clear that she just used him for information and because he was the only WW child she knew - as soon as she met others, he was done for in her book.

[narcissa-malfoy.livejournal.com]

What the scene came down to for me, after all those re-readings, was that Lily and Snape clearly had a problematic relationship based on a mutual but not particularly personal animosity. A history of insults and dislike as that between any muggleborn and aspiring Death Eater. But that Lily felt that this situation had gone too far and therefore decided to intervene. There was nothing to dislike about Lily's characterisation from that. But to find out that they were supposed to be best friends shines a whole new, repulsing light on that scene.

Lily/Snape shippers were already rampant at this point, hence my intrigue with the chapter :)

I had entirely forgotten about the smile! Repressed it, probably. What kind of friend does that? I would have been hurt and humiliated on a friend's behalf, amusement would have been the farthest thing from my mind. I do not understand what that reaction is supposed to show us at all. Imagine how Ron or Harry had taken if it had been Hermione!

Lily just came off as cold to me. I do not understand why she befriended him at all. She certainly was never any friend to him.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

Harry would have stood around angsting over whatever was happening to Hermione; Ron would have yelled her name - at least according to DH. Harry had a "saving people thing", so in other circumstances, if he wasn't locked in a dungeon, he might have fought for Hermione. I doubt if either would have suppressed a smile. (If they did, I can just imagine what Hermione would've done to them - canaries would be the least of the choices)

I think Lily befriended Snape because he knew what it was she was. He had information she needed. She could control her magic at age nine or ten (floating from swing, animating flower), so she didn't understand accidental magic when it happened by Snape against Petunia. She censured him for the branch incident. She was in with him for reading Petunia's letters, but blamed him for it all. As the person who lived in that house, as Petunia's sister, it was up to her to stop any incursion into her sister's stuff, but she knew what was in the letter so she was in it to her eyeballs. But, it was Sev's fault. As for whatever Mulciber etc. did to Mary MacD, I doubt if it was nearly as bad as trying to kill her by werewolf, yet she didn't want to hear about St. James and St. Sirius being that bad. She had already chosen her friends by then, and it was the glorious Gryffindors, not her oldest friend in the WW. She got what she needed out of him, then tossed him aside. If you ask me, she'd have done well in Slytherin.

[narcissa-malfoy.livejournal.com]

They would have been livid. Nay, exploded. And vice versa.

Like I say further down, I understand that she didn't want betray her sister, either, but in a conflict of loyalty between sister and best friend, there is usually a conflict.

As for whatever Mulciber etc. did to Mary MacD, I doubt if it was nearly as bad as trying to kill her by werewolf, yet she didn't want to hear about St. James and St. Sirius being that bad.

Yes, what was that? No, seriously, what was that?

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

As I said above, with the flashback scene, Lily clearly demonstrated herself to be better than the jerks who were torturing some kid because they didn't like him. But not that much. Her motivation obviously seemed to be "What's that Potter prick up to now?" (which in JKR's world is a form of flirting, anyway), rather than, "OMG, that's my best friend up there," or even, "This is wrong and why is no one stopping this?"

And yes, it's only in the very earliest scenes of their "friendship" that she comes across as at all *friendly*. Not that Severus is doing a great job, but it's obviously up to him to bend every step of the way -- including not being friends with any of his own housemates. Because he's a Slytherin, she might still be willing to call him a friend (in the most condescending way possible), but basically only if she's his *only* friend, or if she gets approval or veto power over any other friend he may want to have.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

...only if she's his *only* friend, or if she gets approval or veto power over any other friend he may want to have.

Oy, you're right. Rowling does love those manipulative sorts, doesn't she?

[narcissa-malfoy.livejournal.com]

(which in JKR's world is a form of flirting, anyway)

Yes. Schoolyard bullying. The ultimate turn-on. The only thing hotter I can think of is mugging an old lady. *rolls eyes* (at JK, not you :) )

And I agree. The only I way I could reconcile that half-smile of Lily's was to imagine a history of animosity between them. As it stands, my reaction is more along the line of, "Bzuhah?"

I don't think she even came off as very friendly then. She turned her back on him immediately whenever there was a conflict. I understand that she didn't want betray her sister, either, but in a conflict of loyalties between sister and best friend, there's usually a conflict.

Not that Severus is doing a great job, but it's obviously up to him to bend every step of the way

I completely agree. He is always supposed to be sorry, while she can treat him any way she likes. If you ask me, half-smiling and walking away while somebody is threatening to take somebody's underwear off, never mind your supposedly best friend's, is far worse than an insult slung out under great distress.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Because he's a Slytherin, she might still be willing to call him a friend (in the most condescending way possible), but basically only if she's his *only* friend, or if she gets approval or veto power over any other friend he may want to have.

What's scary about this to me is that that is one of the classic red flags for an abusive partner. The first thing they do is try to isolate you from your friends and family. If you think about, she's trying to separate him from his parents when they're ten years old. Subtly, but it's there.

Of course, sadly, it makes sense that Severus would go from his dysfunctional family to a dysfunctional relationship with Lily.... to a dysfunctional gang of Death Eaters... to the dysfunctional relationship with Dumbledore.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think one of the things that makes it odd, too, is that in this case obviously Lily's right. If somebody is starting to hang out with skinheads you probably would say something about it. But there's that odd idea that Snape's somehow doing this *for* her in the author's mind or something, so it doesn't really ring true as how a Muggleborn would really be reacting to this. Is Lily supposed to be just actually scared of these people and worried about Snape, or is she just supposed to be somebody who is a much better choice of people and the real danger isn't clear yet? (Heh. Too bad she didn't give that speech to James about Peter, I guess!)