So yeah, I'm going to write about Avatar again--and again I feel like I'm just stating the obvious but nothing excites me more than a story that just stuff really really well so I'm satisfied!



So...Zuko. Oh, what a satisfying story. ::sigh:: Especially having just finished the 7 books taking place in the Potterverse, aka "The Land that Redemption Forgot (but if you earn it our hero may grant you some measure of approval and won't that be wonderful for you)." I was listening to ATLA commentaries the other day, and the creators talked about how they were kind of surprised when fans figured out where Zuko was headed back in the first season. Not that this bothered them, because it wasn't about the surprise but how they got there. (And that alone makes me love them, because what is the obsession people have with surprise at the expense of all else sometimes? If all you've got going for you is the surprise, there's no reason to think about it later.)

Anyway, the creators said how they got all these angry letters when Zuko chose "evil" in CoD, but they felt that was the only choice he could have made at that moment, as he was angry and confused and angry and confused people make bad decisions.

But here's what I love about it, is that it's not just about redemption but maturity...and in fact those two are linked together, which is one of my favorite pairings! I love it when stories show that being a good person is actually smart and intelligent and badass. If Zuko had chosen to side with Aang and Iroh et al. in CoD--well, it still could have worked, but he wouldn't have really switched sides because he would still be confused. His choice there would have been less about him truly choosing the Avatar and more about him choosing one father (Iroh) over the other (Ozai as represented by Azula). He would be doing what Uncle thought was right and also still following along his muddled ideas about fate. If they had done that, I think they would have needed Zuko to waiver and be untrustworthy to the group until they truly finished that part of the arc. They knew he wasn't done changing yet. He was still in the middle. (Iroh was not completely correct—this wasn’t Zuko’s crossroads. He was rushing it.)

I mean, at that point in the series he's admitted that he has these impulses towards protecting or helping Aang and others, that he isn't so sure about the war. But he still isn't sure those aren't just weaknesses that keep him from being a good Fire Nation Prince. Iroh tells him that he's stronger and wiser and freer than he was before, and he's right, but Zuko doesn't see that yet so it’s just Iroh trying to get him to take the path he (Iroh) thinks is best for him. (Zuko’s still operating under that pesky Bad Faith!!) Actually, it's kind of interesting given Iroh's own past and relationship with Zuko that he always avoids the real thing that Zuko's about, which is his father. Azula doesn't--she jumps right in about how if he fights with her he'll have his father's love. That's what even later Zuko admits it was more about for him. I wonder if Iroh just didn't want to go there. Because he can't really say to him: "That stuff you long for as a son? Not gonna happen."

In fact, the whole Iroh/Zuko father/son relationship probably deserves its own post the way it informs that whole relationship and especially Iroh's actions imo, while at the same time Zuko has to work out his dad issues completely on his own with no overt help from Iroh.

The creators just totally hit a personal story kink of mine by not having Zuko switch sides here where he'd be listening to Iroh. He's not just Iroh's successful project. In order to make a strong decision he had to be thinking completely for himself for the first time. So we get that whole section where he returns to the Fire Nation and still feels uneasy and angry. But it takes him a while to really know why. At first he keeps trying to find old reasons for his anger, ones that fit his old child pattern. If he just feels badly for not doing what Iroh wanted he's back to where he was with his father and can lash out at Iroh. Only Iroh refuses to play that role. Zuko’s last scenes before he decides to switch sides play on that even more--he's angry because he's been cut out of the war meeting and sulks that he won't go--that's the sort of thing he was always angry about before. But then it turns out he has been invited and they're waiting for him and he's still not really happy.

He's trying to fit himself back into his old role at court but he's outgrown it. Unfortunately he has not grown to fit the new role he's being offered either. So ultimately, as he tells Sokka in TBR, leaving the Fire Nation isn't that hard because it's the only thing that feels right for who he is. It's hard, but staying would be a lot harder.

Of course, just because he's not just making decisions based on what Iroh thinks doesn't mean Iroh's not still a role model and Zuko can't still imagine what Iroh would say when he's confused. That's another thing I love in the post-DBS Zuko, the way he can't ever be Iroh when he's trying to be (his imitation in WAT and "silver sandwich" blathering in TBR) and yet doesn't notice the times when he actually is being Iroh. When he tries to imitate him he focuses on Iroh's personal quirks of language, using metaphors from the natural world and speaking in abstractions. He sucks at that because that's not how he talks.

But at times when he's just being sincere and passing on his own wisdom gained through experience (which is what Iroh was trying to do) he can be quite the guru! Just in more straightforward language. Like his speech about honor when he approaches the GAang the second time to explain why he wants to join them or his advice to Sokka on what not to base his decisions on in TBR. He isn't aware of it, since he's still speaking in his own straightforward way, but the concepts can still be confusing. He even gets a confused reaction from Sokka in TBR like he might have given to Uncle in the past, but with Sokka's personality ("Is this supposed to be helping?") when he talks about failure.

Zuko's been wonderfully goofier since embracing his Avatar love, since he's not taking himself so seriously and isn't so afraid to show when he's at a loss or make mistakes. But in the moments where he knows what he's doing, he's far more interesting and charismatic than his old, robotic self. Zuko's cool!
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From: [identity profile] ali-wildgoose.livejournal.com


I cannot respond to this properly right now as I am sitting in an airport with 18% on my battery. But you should def repost this to [livejournal.com profile] atla_unspoiled my dear <3 <3 <3

(O ZUKO!!! *sighs*)
Edited Date: 2008-05-13 06:15 pm (UTC)

From: [identity profile] redbrunja.livejournal.com


Oh, that is some damn nice meta.

I agree - while I was shocked and disappointed in Zuko post-CoD (I actually wrote almost 2,000 words of meta on it), I totally understood why he made that choice: because it's everything that he's spent years wanting, and I couldn't see if turning away from it.

I wonder if Iroh just didn't want to go there. Because he can't really say to him: "That stuff you long for as a son? Not gonna happen."

That's exactly why Iroh didn't say anything. Because Zuko, at any point (possibly even now) would react negatively, because it's everything he was refusing to admit to himself, and would chance his whole purpose in his life.

That said, while I think it was important for Zuko to return to the fire nation, I felt that having 10 episodes to show how unhappy he was was really, really unneeded. Five would have been much better, imho. (Also, if Mai/Zuko is going to be the relationship he ends the series in, they did a really, really bad job of setting it up, because Zuko with Mai was everything you don't want in a King, and Mai is someone I don't ever wan to see with power. I almost slapped them in "Nightmares and Day Dreams" when they're bonding via being awful to the servants.)

He's trying to fit himself back into his old role at court but he's outgrown it. Unfortunately he has not grown to fit the new role he's being offered either. So ultimately, as he tells Sokka in TBR, leaving the Fire Nation isn't that hard because it's the only thing that feels right for who he is. It's hard, but staying would be a lot harder.


Well said. There court is still ruled by Azula and Ozai, so there is no room for Iroh's son to exist and doing anything worthwhile, and Zuko's changed to much to be comfortable molding himself into the person he knows that his father wants as a son.

(Randomly, I'd love to hear your problems with redemption in HP - because I have mixed feelings about it.)
ext_41216: Snoopy & Woodstock (steam punk yay)

From: [identity profile] scriva.livejournal.com


Nice meta. I don't have much to add, because I have a similar love for the character and the story arc. Crossroads of Destiny was a real emotional roller coaster for me, because I felt so much sympathy for all the involved characters, meaning Aang, Katara, Zuko and Iroh, their conflicts and their pain. I also didn't think that Zuko could have made another decision, and maybe, he didn't realise immediately during the fight that Iroh would really fight them. Luckily, I have come to Avatar only lately and I didn't have to wait ten months for the continuation.

I also loved the commentaries, and what they creator told about the character and earning the right to make the right decision. I think that they chose maybe not the best possible, but the dramatically most effective moment for Zuko to make his choice. It's a bit unfortunate that his turning point and the final shattering of his self-illusions was off screen, but the DoBS clearly showed what was debated during the war meeting: the trap for the invasion forces and the use of the police forces as bait. So, it would really have been a kind of deja-vue.
glamaphonic: nikki green looks on | <user name=sincerely_jane site=livejournal.com> (Default)

From: [personal profile] glamaphonic


because Zuko with Mai was everything you don't want in a King, and Mai is someone I don't ever wan to see with power.

That's only when one erroneously blames Mai for Zuko's state of mind/actions during the first half of season three. It's not Zuko With Mai that was the issue. It was Zuko Confused, Conflicted, and Trying To Be His Father's Ideal of a Prince that was the problem and during this time he happened to be in a relationship with Mai. (Mai who, mind, did the best that she could as an emotionally screwed up 17-year-old girl to support him, counsel him, and make him happy, while still notably calling him out on being an ass when necessary. But the fact of the matter is, she isn't magical. She couldn't know what was wrong with Zuko [who is, frankly, far more worldly and experienced then her when it comes to real considerations of morality as opposed to the propaganda that they both grew up with] when Zuko didn't even know himself. Then as soon as he DID know, he didn't tell her about it or explain, he just flitted off in some gallant attempt to protect her from such nasty business.]

They played, "Let's boss some servants around," for laughs, and Mai was clearly only suggesting these things to cheer Zuko up because he'd just been showing off to her in this way so she assumed it would make him feel better. Is it an amazingly nice and kind thing to do? No. Does it indicate that a character whose first appearance featured her very specifically not caring about the royal treatment would be sooo terrible when given power? Also no.

And this comment is long enough now, so I'm not going to go into Mai's heel face turn and how it was done and what can be taken from it...just there is a disturbing tendency for people not just to unduly associate Mai with Zuko's bad decisions/behavior in the first half of season three, but to blame her for them. Which is unfair and inaccurate.
Edited Date: 2008-05-13 09:03 pm (UTC)
ext_41216: Snoopy & Woodstock (steam punk yay)

From: [identity profile] scriva.livejournal.com


That said, while I think it was important for Zuko to return to the fire nation, I felt that having 10 episodes to show how unhappy he was was really, really unneeded. Five would have been much better, imho.

I have read this critic on several forums, but I didn't have the chance to make a reply. I don't agree completely. I can understand why the first half of season 3 seems a bit fillery to many people, because it was mostly build-up to the first climax of the season. I liked most of the episodes and they contain many of the elements I like about Avatar aside from the characters (especially the parodies of other movies or trops), but I can understand the problems other people might have with them. However, the creators made the decision to place the Day of Black Sun in the middle of the season and coincide the eclipse with Zuko facing his father. This is in my opinion a demonstration of effective story telling, it allowed for great dramatic and exciting moments.

Once that decision was made, they had to show the build-up to this moment which brings me back to your comment and to where I really disagree. First, on a less serious side, they did tell Zuko's story in five episodes. ;) Second, I think that every episode in which he figured showed a different step towards his decision and a different moment in his inner journey. And that is the main problem with Zuko's conflict: it's entirely internal and the only things they can effectively show is how his state of mind reflects on his interactions with other people. That's what they show in The Headband, when he searches for Iroh's advice. They also showed it in The Beach when he blows up over everything and when Mai tells him that his past doesn't excuse everything, when he realises that he can never return to the moments he remembers, when he lets out for the first time that he is angry at his father, and when he finally admits to himself and to the others what's wrong with him. The execution of these scenes is not always perfect, but they show that he has really hit rock bottom. The Firelord and the Avatar and even Nightmares and Daydreams contain other turning-points, and I talked about the war meeting in my general reply.

I'm not going to touch the Mai/Zuko in detail, because they would lead to another long reply. I just think that Mai is a character in evolution, just like Zuko, and she can grow out of some her unpleasant attitudes without losing all of her character.

(I'm sorry for the long post, but I had these things on my mind for quite a while. )





From: [identity profile] redbrunja.livejournal.com


I don't blame Mai for Zuko's behavior, and I'm sorry that it sounded like I did - I really phrased that badly. Mai is part of a larger 'Zuko trying to be the perfect prince' that is motivated by his issues. However, I really feel they did not bring out good things in each other.

From: [identity profile] r-ganymede.livejournal.com


I think this is pretty much why I spent most of the series alternating between "O Zuko" and "OMG switch sides already you moron". Because Zuko's sort of right near adulthood, but not yet an adult. So I usually end up half-sympathetic and half-annoyed with the mistakes he makes, because in some ways he should know better, but in others he is still just a kid, and it's really hard for a kid to do the things he needs to do (hard for an adult too, but much harder for a kid). The way it's so well balanced in the show is one of the reasons I love it so much.

Thinking about Avatar in relation to Harry Potter makes me LOL, because I end up imagining Zuko at Hogwarts. I think he'd be a Gryffindor (brave, never thinks things through), but I also kind of think he'd hate all the other Gryffindors.
ext_6866: (Don't know yet)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Thanks! I'm glad you liked it!

Also, if Mai/Zuko is going to be the relationship he ends the series in, they did a really, really bad job of setting it up, because Zuko with Mai was everything you don't want in a King, and Mai is someone I don't ever wan to see with power.

I almost put in a little nod to the Mai/Zuko relationship but stuck with Zuko. It's (relatively) easy for him to leave the Fire Nation, and anybody who comes with him when he leaves ("leaving" here basically just meaning turning their back on the current FN philosophy and fighting against Ozai) has to make that same change. I think Mai in BR kept herself in the game. She's not yet evolved into somebody in the right frame of mind, and we don't know what will happen with her, but as of now I'd say the writers are keeping that potential. In fact, it took a step forward when she rescued Zuko in TBR.

I've read some criticism of that action of hers, basically just people pointing out that she didn't do right because it was right, she just protected Zuko--and that's true. But it's possible for Zuko to be the catalyst towards Mai's own change as a character. They made clear in The Beach that her problem is not caring about anything, but she cares for him. So if she has an arc, it probably means she has to come to care about something, and that something could be the right thing.

I don't think, if the series ends with some future ideas about pairings, that they would pair Zuko with the same girl he's with in The Beach. They'd surely see how Mai would have to evolve to be a good partner for him. But if she's going to change, it probably only just started. In the first half of the season the gap between her and Zuko is really obvious--I think even she is vaguely aware that she's not as close to him as she wants to be because she doesn't get what's going on with him. In BR when he tells her he's doing this for his country, and that he doesn't share her views on his being a traitor, she's probably only listening to him because it's Zuko, but at least she's potentially listening.

Randomly, I'd love to hear your problems with redemption in HP - because I have mixed feelings about it

Heh--as you could probably tell, I was disappointed! I felt like there were sets ups for some real redemption stories that turned out not to be about that at all. After DH I got a totally different view of it. Some people turned out to be not-so-bad, but Zuko is a great contrast for me to show what *wasn't* happening there. People earned some measure of pity, but there was no true transformations imo. Which was kind of depressing--I kept feeling like I was bumping my head on the ceiling with my expectations!

glamaphonic: nikki green looks on | <user name=sincerely_jane site=livejournal.com> ([av] chest gets all tight)

From: [personal profile] glamaphonic


Well, I have to strongly disagree with both assertions.

re: Mai and Zuko don't bring out good things in each other

The entire episode The Beach was about them calling each other out on the bad things in their respective personalities, not to mention the very important moment wherein Mai essentially tells Zuko that a shitty childhood does not excuse him from culpability. They're both pretty screwed up and neither of them is a perfect person, but I don't believe that Zuko's trying to live up to his father's perception of him (which is what Nightmare and Daydreams is about) and Mai temporarily going along with his attempts to pretend just because she wants him to stop moping all over the place (because she loves him and it upsets her to see him upset) is indicative that it is Mai and Zuko themselves who don't bring out good things in each other. I guess one could fault Mai in N&D for being excessively accommodating to Zuko even when he was acting a little badly? But that clearly wasn't a problem she had prior to that or afterwards. I'd even hazard to say that her acting that way in N&D was because Zuko was specifically upset about his dad and his relationship with him and she knows how sore a spot that is.

re: "Mai is part of a larger 'Zuko trying to be the perfect prince' that is motivated by his issues"

I might disagree even MORE strongly with this. Annoyingly relegated to ancillary material though it might have been, Zuko hooked up with Mai based on his affection for her prior to even deciding whether to return home at all. And even within the show itself Zuko doesn't connect Mai and his feelings for her with the Perfect Prince lie that he left behind. It's made explicit in TBR that she was the only thing that it was hard to leave and that he only did so in aforementioned gallant attempt to keep her out of the nasty treason business. And it was also made obvious that despite his having overcome those issues wrt his father and his father's vision of what a prince should be his feelings for Mai have not changed at all. His relationship with her is categorically not motivated by his issues and never was, which is why it still stands and gets explored after that part of his arc has been resolved.

From: [identity profile] kittyjimjams.livejournal.com


That's another thing I love in the post-DBS Zuko, the way he can't ever be Iroh when he's trying to be (his imitation in WAT and "silver sandwich" blathering in TBR) and yet doesn't notice the times when he actually is being Iroh.

I liked this whole analysis, but I just thought this was such a good point I wanted to quote it. I loved Zuko's "failing over and over again" speech because it was such a Zuko-ish way to put it, but so clearly something he had learned at least partly from the time spent with Iroh. Zuko has changed, and made decisions about how to change, for himself - but he couldn't have been the person who did that without Iroh. I LOVE the way the show has done that.

From: [identity profile] redbrunja.livejournal.com


I've read some criticism of that action of hers, basically just people pointing out that she didn't do right because it was right, she just protected Zuko--and that's true.

The fact that she DIDN'T believe in Zuko's cause but nonetheless didn't want to see him dead was what made that work for me, and I actually hope that she stays on the side of the Fire Nation. That scene in the cell, where they were these two people who have this relationship but are unequivocally on opposite sides of a great philosophical divide, was how I'd always seen their relationship, and one of the few places I’ve really enjoyed Mai.

I know a lot of people are predicting that she and Ty Lee will escape and join the Avatar, but I really hope that doesn't happen - after Zuko's seasons long change of heart, with him as such a pivotal character for the story, I don't see a way that Mai could duplicate his journey in a way that wouldn't feel shallow and slapdash in comparison. (And part of me really hopes that Azula threatens and manipulates Ty Lee and Mai into working for her again. Dangerous Ladies FTW!)

I totally understand what you mean about how there wasn't transformation stories in HP - there wasn't change visible in a lot of characters where it should have been, and everybody mainly ends where they started.

From: [identity profile] redbrunja.livejournal.com


I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
glamaphonic: nikki green looks on | <user name=sincerely_jane site=livejournal.com> ([av] but esau have i hated)

From: [personal profile] glamaphonic


I don't really have anything to add to the actual meta (uh, sorry for Mai and Mai/Zuko metaing all over your comments?), but to say that I pretty much agree. I actually am generally bored by redemption arcs, but I've always really enjoyed Zuko's (or the idea of it) because of how well it's been executed. I wrote giant meta post-season two as one of the few people who wasn't at all upset about his choice in the finale that was basically nothing but gushing over how much I loved him and how much sense it made.

So. Yeah. *thumbs up*

From: [identity profile] seaislewitch.livejournal.com


AH! I want to read this post, but I'm still watching the first season. (It's on in eight minutes.) I look forward to coming back, though...

From: [identity profile] ali-wildgoose.livejournal.com


AND THAT WAS HOW WE MET.

MY ARGUING WITH HER IN THE COMMENTS.

<3 <3 <3
ext_6866: (Two for joy of talking)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


It's funny, because it's easy to say that you want the characters to earn choices etc., but this show really demonstrates what they're talking about there. I remember watching CoD as soon as I saw what Zuko was doing I sort of intellectually knew that this made sense, but it was still breaking my heart. Not just for him but for everybody involved. For all I can see why this way is better, I really wanted him to do the right thing.

I, too, was lucky that I was watching it on DVD and didn't have to wait 10 months for what happened next.
ext_6866: (Goya Magpie)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


I do love the whole teen thing with Zuko. I sort of go back and forth on how hard it would be if he were older. I guess Iroh changed when he was older...but then, he had the death of his son to get him over that hump.

It's scary to imagine who Zuko would have become without all this. Even if he hadn't been scarred he probably would have grown up seriously twisted.
ext_6866: (Baby magpies)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


It's wonderfully subtle, too, because Iroh's really hands-off combined with intrusive. Like in Tales of BSS where Iroh makes him go out on his date and he has this scary but nice time. And he comes home all upset but then peeks his head out and says yeah, he had a good time.
ext_6866: (I'm off.)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Oh, don't apologize! I love reading the comments--including the Mai/Zuko. it's all part of the canon. Redemption arcs can be done really well, but they make it awesome!

I am totally going to seek out that meta of yours now, of course. Gushing or no.
ext_6866: (Watching and waiting)

From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com


Definitely hold out until you see it. I'd love to hear your thoughts later. Yay for Season One!
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