Where did that ship come from?

[sistermagpie]

Recently I’ve read a couple of conversations that made me think about shipping. Specifically I've been thinking about the criticism: Why does s/he like her/him? As in: We don't understand why s/he likes her/him. The sudden attraction comes out of nowhere. If we don't understand that it's not realistic/it's badly written or whatever.

I'm going to use actual ships to talk about this, but hopefully this will not set off a ship argument or make anybody feel criticized for liking or not liking a ship. One of the ships I'm going to talk about I don't like (Harry/Ginny from HP) and one I do (Zuko/Mai from Avatar), so hopefully that separates it from liking or not liking the ship straight off.



Both these ships have gotten this criticism. In both cases, some people felt like the part where the guy (who in both cases was more our pov character) started to like this girl just happened, and that the relationship happened off-page. To give more of an idea of where I'm coming from, here's why I was surprised to hear this. In the exchange I was reading someone had criticized Zutarians for "making up meanings" for Zuko/Katara interactions--iow, writing in an off-page romance. The Zutarian countered back that it was hypocritical for the person to have a problem with off-page Zuko/Katara when they defended off-screen Zuko/Mai.

That made me say...whoa. That's two different definition of "off-screen/off-page" here. Zuko/Mai happens onscreen. The two express attraction to each other. They kiss. They refer to each other as boyfriend/girlfriend. They tell other people they like/love each other. They kiss some more. That was the definition of "onscreen" the Maiko person was using.

What the other person was saying was that s/he never saw *why* these characters liked each other, and if that wasn't argued convincingly and we just had to make up the reasons they clicked, how was that any different from Zuko/Katara, especially since presumably this person could argue why those two characters should be attracted to each other.

I hate to drag Harry/Hermione into this because they shouldn't automatically be defined as the anti-Harry/Ginny ship, but I know some of the feelings there are similar. Even more so than Zuko/Katara, Harry and Hermione are friends. We know what they like about each other in a far more detailed and less superficial ways than we know why Harry and Ginny think each other is awesome.

But these couples--H/G and M/Z--were described as *unrealistic* because of this. The couples aren't convincing, it "makes no sense," it just comes out of nowhere.

But the thing is, in real life, isn't that just as often how it happens? Especially if you're a teenager who's therefore only recently developed a consistent sexual desire? (Consistent meaning that it's always part of your pov, not consistent meaning you always like one person, gender or type.) When I think back on high school romances at my school that's actually the way it always seemed to play out to me. More often than not somebody liking somebody else made no particular sense whatsoever. Sure you expected a popular girl to date a popular boy in her group or whatever, but my friends more often seemed to like totally random people. Could any of them have given me a convincing meta-reason for why they focused on these random girls or boys? Probably not. I can think of a couple of fairly long-relationship where people never stopped asking what they were doing together.

Of course we accept things in reality that make bad writing in fiction. I don't consider "but that's the way it happens sometimes in real life!" as any kind of defense of something that doesn't work in fiction. But in this case I think there is a defense here. Romance fiction is very concerned with why people like other people, why the hero is the best man for the girl (or in general), why the heroine should get the guy over any other girl. But in a story about something else, like HP and A:TLA both are, I don't think it's odd to throw in random sexual attraction from one teenager to another as just another obstacle. It's not the reasons for Harry liking Ginny that are important, it's that he thinks she's hot and that gives him something he wants that he has to do something to have. (Okay, he doesn’t have to do much—it’s Harry Potter, after all!) Or even more with Zuko and Mai, their attraction for each other creates a relationship that will then have an effect on things. It's not that Zuko and Mai see that the other has X qualities and therefore fall in love, it's that Zuko and Mai have a long-running attraction to each other, which leads them to date, and once they date they like each other even better and discover things about each other. The stiltedness of their overtly romantic scenes makes sense given their lack of experience and discomfort with affection in general. Trying and failing to do what you think a boyfriend is supposed to do or say isn’t a sign Zuko doesn’t like Mai, imo, but that he wants Mai to like him because he likes her and doesn’t know how to do that.

In a way, in these cases it would almost be less realistic to me to get careful scenes that explained exactly what they were supposed to be attracted to in the other. Sometimes romance works backwards; you see who the person is attracted to and then you can work that back to the way they are in other ways. Their attraction says something about them, not the other way around. HP takes this even further with the idea of love potions that give you a scent to follow to your True Love For Life and as romances go that's not as interesting as a sophisticated fic that dives into what makes Harry and Hermione or Harry and Draco or Harry and Luna tick and how their two psychologies attract each other. But that doesn't, imo, make the other way badly or underwritten necessarily.

That sounds like a long-winded way of just saying "they're not writing a romance!" which of course gets countered with "that doesn't mean the romance in it should suck!" and that's not what I mean. These shows are writing romance, obviously. Romance is part of the plot (the gay romance just as much as the het romance--I'm looking at you, DD/GG!). It makes things happen, gives people motivations, is part of what people want. What I'm saying is that there's a valid tradition of presenting attraction as a done deal that doesn't have to be defended or explained for a reason. Someone pushing another person's sexual buttons, just striking someone else as physically attractive even if that person is bad for them or has other qualities they normally wouldn't like, is also part of life so shouldn't be automatically discounted in fiction.

With both these couples I have no problem in the end finding reasons why they work for the characters. I can see reasons why each would find the other superior to other people, and choose to spend their time with him/her, to get married and have kids once the initial sexual curiosity has been satisfied. I don't mind that I don’t relate to the feeling of attraction that strikes the characters but instead just know that Mai has a crush on Zuko already and Zuko is very okay with that, or know that Ginny has always crushed on Harry and Harry is now going to think she's the girl he wants as a girlfriend because she's better than other girls that way. That doesn't strike me as unrealistic or badly written given what came before, and it makes sense to me that two boys who have previously been focused on other things (or in Harry's case a different girl) would now find their attention wandering to this girl.

Really, any ship needs that spark of “and then sexual attraction arbitrarily happened.” Even in a story where you ship the two main characters and understand their relationship inside and out and see just how good they are for each other and how they hurt each other and why they need each other, if you don’t have that moment of OMG, WANT! there’s no romance. Though ships can still be criticized or disliked, both for reasons outside the text (not liking what that romance seems to "say" in the context of the story) or inside (not seeing chemistry, finding it squicky, not buying it, finding the characters annoying together, feeling like the writer is just writing their own fantasy without communicating it to the audience etc.).

Comments

[violaswamp.livejournal.com]

Fiction, unlike reality, has to make sense. ;) The reader knows it's fiction, so it has to be extra-convincing for that purpose alone. Even if you're writing about purple flying unicorns, you have to set up the story so the the unicorns make sense in that universe. Same with romance, I guess.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. But of course, people have different ideas about what makes sense for romance. For instance, what doesn't make sense about a boy being attracted to a hot girl? How much explaining does that need? None if the reader finds the girl attractive him/herself, but maybe more if they don't!

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

For instance, what doesn't make sense about a boy being attracted to a hot girl?

But it makes less sense that a boy would suddenly be attracted to a hot girl he never even thought about, previously. Unless she suddenly became hot (which is plausible, especially when it comes to teenage girls) or she said or did something, or something else happened that made him think of her in a completely new way and thus discovering she was hot. Both possibilities are plausible, but only the second one is interesting.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

But it makes less sense that a boy would suddenly be attracted to a hot girl he never even thought about, previously.

Actually, I think it would make sense if they were both adolescents. I do think it's supposed to be a sort of "My, how you've grown" situation. Unfortunately we're not actually told that Ginny now has big tits, but Harry starts to find Ginny attractive around when she becomes a knockout (judging by how suddenly everybody agrees how pretty she is). There's a bit of a lag, but I assume that's supposed to be explained by Harry seeing her as Ron's little sister and so needing to catch up with his body reacting to her like she's a girl.

What's missing, of course, is the description of this. Harry's sexual desire remains a mystery even from himself (we get coy references to "dreams that would upset Ron" or whatever, but that's after he's started liking her and is smelling her in his love potion). It's like someone said about being more in Harry's head than in Zuko's. It's not so much that we need more to understand why Harry's attracted, imo, it's that from the view inside his head he doesn't really seem to find her attractive. If we were watching from the outside we'd probably mistakenly think he's crushing on her earlier and get that it's because she's pretty and awesome now.

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree, it's only in HBP that everyone starts talking about how Ginny is pretty, and that's when Harry falls in love with her. I would have preferred it if it said explicitly that Ginny had gotten D-cups, because noting and reacting to that would certainly have made Harry seem like a more normal teenage boy if nothing else, but as I said, the girl suddenly becoming hot, which seems more than likely to be what's going on here, is plausible enough. But it doesn't make for a very interesting story.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

the girl suddenly becoming hot, which seems more than likely to be what's going on here, is plausible enough. But it doesn't make for a very interesting story.

Especially since the girl is already ready to marry him. There's no obstacles whatsoever except for the completely artificial ones Harry creates using Ron and Voldemort. He doesn't have to win Ginny once he realizes he wants her now, after she's stopped wanting him. It's an incredibly smooth development of love that I always thought was maybe supposed to be a commentary about the way these things work. The way the girl develops this sort of thing young, but the boy isn't ready and is embarassed, and then she's again more mature and he's all awkward because he's caught up to her...

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Ginny the beauty is a fanon invention.

I think you're wrong; it's a canon fact that Ginny is pretty and good looking.

And in DH, we have Victor Krum noticing Ginny. But he also notices Hermione. Does this mean Hermione is a great beauty?

Viktor does more than 'notice' Ginny; he remarks outright on her looks:

"This girl is very nice looking," Krum said ...

...

"Vot," he said, draining his goblet and getting to his feet again, "is the point of being an international Quidditch player if all the good-looking girls are taken?"

Viktor leaves us convinced as to Ginny's good looks, telling us twice.

Pansy's remark in HBP is also much more assertive, leaving Ginny's good looks in no doubt:

"A lot of boys like her," said Pansy, watching Malfoy out of the corner of her eyes for his reaction. "Even you think she's good looking, don't you, Blaise, and we all how hard you are to please!"

Yes, Blaise wouldn't have a bar of Ginny, but that's on ethical grounds; he thinks she's a 'blood traitor'. But *a lot of boys* like Ginny and think she's pretty.

I'm sure there are other scenes in canon where Ginny is blatantly described as pretty. When they're shopping in Diagon Alley, for example, a street vendor suggests that Molly purchase something for her "pretty daughter/girl", something like that.

Ginny is never called *beautiful* - she's not a classic beauty like Fleur - but she is most definitely good looking / pretty. Nothing but the best for the hero and his love interest!

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what to say ... you seem to be trying very very hard to ignore what's written in the canon text.

In your first post you seem to take pains to sidestep the most relevant part of each of the 'Ginny is pretty' scenes, ignoring the text where characters state outright that Ginny is pretty or good-looking. Rather than note Pansy's simple statement that "a lot of boys like her" or "even [Blaise] thinks she's good looking" you instead concentrate on Blaise's reaction (then, and later in the Slug Club!?). Victor says - twice! - that Ginny is nice/good looking ... but you conveniently ignore those words and choose to drag in Hermione!?

You've got all these various people stating that Ginny is pretty, good-looking, that "a lot of boys like her". That's in black and white.

There's no need to drag in Hermione.

There's no need to worry about whether Blaise personally is attracted to Ginny - he's told us why he's not interested in Ginny. And his reason doesn't contradict the fact of Ginny's physical beauty.

There's no need to bring in Fleur, Gabrielle or any of the others. We know they're beautiful because Harry noticed their beauty in the course of the narrative. We know Ginny is pretty because Harry, Pansy, a DE, a bloke in the street and 'a lot of boys' have noted same.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

No, I think they really are saying that she's pretty. Sure it's not like it's on every page, but it's enough (and consistent enough) that I think she's genuinely exceptionally pretty.

There's a random person on the street who calls out to her as pretty. The DE at the end *is* saying that she's pretty, he's just taunting her that he's going to cut off her head. Pansy is testing Draco but testing him because Ginny is actually found attractive by a lot of people, including Blaise she thinks. (Blaise responds by sulkily saying she's a blood traitor but not saying that she's not pretty--I got the impression that yes, Blaise did find her attractive, of course.) Viktor, too, objectively describes her as such.

That's a lot of references to Ginny being attractive (not that Hermione is the plain Jane--she's whistled at on the street). Even if everybody has a reason for doing it, I don't think that explains it all or even most of it away--she is literally a very pretty girl. She is very popular--too popular for her own good, as Harry says. Granted he's being jealous so he's oversensitive to any attention paid to her, but the book seems to say pretty much flat out that yes, Ginny is quite sought-after. That's why Harry has to act fast in asking her out. That's why her brothers begin hovering over her protectively. That the other boys she went out with are nothing special doesn't really matter, the point is that they do want her. She would never be hurting for dates. In the author's words she's "like Lily"--a popular girl.

She's not so supernaturally beautiful that nobody can resist her--I think she's supposed to be pretty in a friendly, less threatening way. But no, I don't think it's a fanon idea that she's supposed to be one of the prettiest girls at Hogwarts. I got that from reading HBP.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

If that's true though why can neither you, madderbrad nor I name more than three instances of Ginny being called good-looking/pretty?

Three instances is already a lot! Ginny's a supporting character and the author goes out of her way to have characters state that she is pretty--this in a storyline where the hero wants to date her and is worried about someone else getting her etc. It seems like you're arguing against all of these straightforward things, demanding more proof that she's pretty because it's not enough to have a number of people say so or do other things that are shorthand for her being pretty. You ask above why Pansy would compliment Ginny by calling her pretty--she would call her pretty because Ginny's being pretty is an accepted fact in her world.

As Madderbrad said, there's no reason to drag in Hermione or compare romantic history etc. to counteract people saying that Ginny is pretty. Why would I not think she's pretty when the author has a number of people tell me she is? It really seems to go beyond personal taste here. Not everyone is attracted to her but she seems to be conventionally pretty based on people casually saying so.

"A lot of boys like her," said Pansy, watching Malfoy out of the corner of her eyes for his reaction.

"I wouldn't touch a filthy little blood traitor like her whatever she looked like," said Blaise coldly, Pansy looked pleased.

I didn't misremember, actually, I was giving my own interpretation of the response here that he wouldn't touch her whatever she looked like as sour grapes. I don't know why you feel that Pansy's looking at Draco proves that Ginny isn't pretty--I know she's saying it for Draco's reaction. I think she's stating the obvious fact that Ginny is pretty and seeing if Draco agrees too much for comfort--she's got reason to be insecure. She's pleased that Blaise puts Ginny down by saying he doesn't care what Ginny looks like because she's a blood traitor. He's not saying she's not pretty, he's saying her looks don't count as much as her being a blood traitor. He clashes with her personally despite her being pretty.

This is a book and Ginny is a supporting character that the author has limited time to sketch out. One of the things JKR finds time to mention is that she's pretty. If the word "pretty" is used to describe a character with this much page time not once but several times in one book, I see no reason to look for reasons it doesn't count each time or decide that she needs to also have X more boyfriends than Hermione. This also goes for things like her brothers worrying about her popularity--you say what we get in canon (the twins mentioning her dating guys in the shop and Ron later getting protective) is not enough. It is, imo, an efficient way of establishing the fact. Three of her brothers discuss her popularity with boys in a scene--it doesn't matter if the twins that there's no follow-up story of the three of them trying to fit her with a chastity belt. The conversation informs us about Ginny. Bringing in factors like the size of the school making popularity meaningless seem like yet another way of erasing what was put in the book for a reason. (And I believe JKR very clearly meant Ginny was like Lily meaning sought after for dates and not popular as a Quidditch player. Within the text itself it's her popularity with boys that's brought up.) Show don't tell is better, but sometimes you just get tell. We get told a lot about Ginny.

You may argue with every time other people get from the text that Ginny is conventionally pretty or not agree with it, but it's not a fanon invention. It comes from canon.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

Really, any ship needs that spark of “and then sexual attraction ARBITRARILY happened.”
Very good point - and I'd like to say that's something I found annoying in quite a lot of Ginny-bashing posts (as much as I dislike the girl myself): the reasoning that it's not o.k. for a boy to fall in love with a girl because of her looks, but he should do so because of her niceness or intelligence or whatever. Intelligence is just as arbitrary a quality as beauty and in neither case does it "make" love, so to speak. It may facilitate the relationship in the long run, but so does beauty sometimes.
As for the H/G pairing in canon: I still maintain it is awful writing but not for the lack of deep meaningful conversations between the two. I would have been perfectly o.k. if all there was to it was Ginny being attracted to his star status and him getting off on her long hair. Provided two things:
- I was not asked to believe it was anything in the realm of true deep everlasting love (at least for the moment)
- the mainly hormon based relationship was presented as such and presented well.
H/G did neither. We are told Ginny is Harry's true love and never see it. And the sexual attraction fizzles like a wet fire cracker - and fanfiction is proof you don't need a R rating to do better than that.
As for fanfiction - provided the above criteria are met, there is nothing that'd draw me away from reading and enjoying this pairing.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think we have very similar reactions to that pairing. I didn't like it ever, although I used to like Ginny as a character just fine. When it happened I didn't like her as a character or them as a couple, but I couldn't think of any good reason he couldn't be attracted to her, suddenly or otherwise. It's not true love, but it didn't have to be.

Unfortunately, it's not like Harry's sexual attraction was too strong even from inside his head. It's almost like he was reacting to the plot plan for him to be in love with Ginny. Which probably has to do with JKR just not writing convincingly about that aspect. Maybe because in her mind--based on what she's actually said--we're looking at soulmates here, so Harry was sort of "sensing" that. He sort of fell between the two stools of physical and emotional attraction with nothing truly concrete about either. The real attraction for this reader seemed to be a shared sense of satisfaction and superiority (heh--hello, Draco and Pansy except they're right!). Which to be honest *is* something people could base a relationship on.

[lokifan]

Yes! This. I loved this post, actually, even though I forgot to reply the first time I saw it.

It is awkwardly written, perhaps because unlike with Cho Chang, the attraction isn't made as obvious - maybe the difference between a sixteen year old and a fourteen year old boy's desire made JK unwilling to write it clearly?

What bothers me the most about the H/G relationship is that JK can write romance - Ron/Hermione is never explained either, aside from Hermione's habit of going out with Quidditch players, and it still works. (Although I like it when fanfic has them ending up with other people.) Remus/Tonks I don't like, but it's still convincing interaction. Dumbledore/Grindelwald, even, works without being explicitly stated! Narcissa/Lucius, Molly/Arthur - different marriages but convincing ones. And the one we see from our POV character is just... a damb squib. I think perhaps it's supposed to be that when Harry begins to be attracted to her, he sort of turns to her and says 'of course', and we're meant to as well. As you said, he senses that they're soulmates, that she's Harry's "perfect girl", as JK says.

heh--hello, Draco and Pansy except they're right!

LOL. Totally. Draco and Pansy's an interesting one, actually. I didn't encounter fandom until after I read HBP (a necessary disclaimer re: the biased opinions of H/D fans!) but I was still never convinced they were together. Pansy's crush on Draco is more than obvious, but there's no suggestion he feels the same way - and for me, very little that they're together. I didn't get the 'romantic' vibe off their interaction on the train - I read it as Draco enjoying himself and lying with his head in a friend's lap feeling pampered, while Pansy squees internally. *shrugs* It's a weird one, because I can't work out what JK's trying to say at all.

[static-pixie.livejournal.com]

I think I get what you're saying here, and it does make sense, especially when, like you said, the story isn't supposed to be about romance but the author wanted to include romance anyway. I think it's probably why I never got Harry/Hermione despite the fact that, technically, that would have made more sense. Or Harry/Luna, to be honest, though that, again, technically would have made more sense. Like, it's pretty much the cornerstone of Darcy and Elizabeth in P&P, the attraction not necessarily being explained but just being there, since Darcy and Elizabeth almost never speak to each other.

And I get the backtracking idea, too, I think it actually worked really well in the case of James and Lily. I just think the problem was that Harry had been so built up as a character that in order for it to really work, Ginny had to kind of have been that built up, too, or else she just becomes a handful of convenient personality traits Harry gets as a reward for saving the world. Like I never got the whole 'want' thing from Ginny's side, just that she'd had a crush on a boy she didn't know when she was 11 and somehow, conveniently, still liked him four books later. Like, it was just kind of assumed that you would get why she'd want Harry, but there wasn't enough to back up that assumption or that want. I think that you can see and understand so much more of a character's personality and motivation than a RL person's that you kind of need a greater understanding of that in a book than you do in RL. Like, that's the thing about H/D; there's a spark and then, in the ensuing relationship, neither Draco nor Harry loses any of their personality, more is just uncovered. Ginny kind of goes from one polarity to another when she gets with Harry.

Uh, but yeah, in general, I think that's a problem people have when writing LI for heroes who have to sacrifice a lot, etc., the girl becomes kind of a gift. They did the same thing in SPN, though at least there they admitted that she was just a fantasy, not something that could ever be real.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

We do know a lot more about other people in RL...actually, you know? It's probably a little of the opposite too. We *don't* know as much about real people as we do about fictional ones, and we know we don't know it and that's why we just have to deal with it when they throw us a curve ball.

I'm not sure why H/Hr or H/L would make any more sense than H/G in the long run. I mean, Hermione maybe from the pov that she's the girl he chooses to spend most of his time with, but there's no reason he ought to be attracted to Luna. Ginny's the "best" girl in the school, so her being a prize for Harry kind of does make sense. Storywise, anyway. Character-wise too, I guess, if you figure that Harry always has to have what is set up as the prize only the best guy wins? Like I said above, it comes across to me ultimately like what attracts them to each other is a shared sense of satisfaction and superiority which isn't very complimentary but probably does attract people!

[atair.livejournal.com]

Hi! this was really interesting. It made me think about why I prefer Zuko/Mai to Harry/Ginny. (I'm not anti H/G, I'm just very indifferent to it and found it somewhat awkwardly written.)

Firstly, I think it helps that we're introduced to Mai independently of Zuko, so I have a clear idea of who she is uninfluenced by the way Zuko sees her - so I like her more, feel more of a connection to her. Secondly, we're much more inside Harry's head than we are inside Zuko's; we're doing a fair amount of guesswork interpreting everything Zuko does, so it's not too disconcerting to deal with his feelings for Mai the same way. With Harry, we have more access to his thoughts and feelings, which makes not being told much about how he feels about Ginny beyond the physical attraction seem weird.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I agree with all this. Mai's got her own story far more than Ginny--which could have backfired, I guess, if that story didn't work. For some people it doesn't. But ultimately Mai's interest in Zuko is set in a certain context that she and Zuko have in common. And also given who Zuko is anybody liking him is going to have a different affect on him than it does on Harry--where you have this set up where Harry is uncomfortable with fangirls yet somehow the girl he wants is the biggest fangirl of all. Okay, he notices her when she pretends not to be, but it's not like he's bothered by that or is elsewhere turned on by girls who are indifferent to him.

But yeah, like you say, we're inside Harry's head a lot and since his attraction seems so separate from himself (even to him!) it's hard to integrate it into the character.

[atair.livejournal.com]

The thing that troubles me most about H/G is that I feel it could have been made to work if this kind of thing had been done - if Ginny had actually lost interest and Harry had to work for her somehow, for example. And, as someone above/below said, if there were some event that had sparked the feeling; I'd also have liked to see their relationship affect the main plotline beyond providing a convenient happy ending. In execution, H/G was made much more boring than it needed to be.

And yeah, because (after CoS) Ginny has pretty much no story, she comes across as being constructed purely for the romance, which reduces the convincingness still further. Wheras, as you said, Zuko and Mai are not perfectly matched and the relationship is pretty clumsy, and the relationship's far more realistic as a result, imo.

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

Haha yeah. I find it pretty amusing to see you sort-of-defending H/G, and me in a position of sort-of-accepting Z/M :D I didn't really ever think Zuko/Mai was 'problematic' so much as it left me cold... or at least cool. I know myself well enough to separate the feeling from 'omg! they shouldn't have written it!', heh. In Zuko/Mai's favor, it was more subtle/'realistic' (more of a teenage relationship) than H/G, and less anvily. Really, the only valid argument against a canon ship (and specifically H/G) is that it's badly written. Stuff like 'they're not suited' is beside the point, 'cause being suited doesn't guarantee or rule attraction and relationships, haha, and really, what's 'suited' is pretty subjective & depends on your value system and on the characters specific circumstances at that time in their life (vs another).

Sometimes people project a little too much. Hm. Like, for instance, we know Harry thought Ginny's smell = happiness, and we know he married her happily, but this doesn't in itself prove the relationship was meant to be written as Grand Romance and Everlasting Love; even R/Hr wasn't written that way. Only James/Lily really was (I think), and that sort of off-stage and by implication. I don't see the implication with H/G, really; whether I choose not to see it or not, I don't know, but while the text is anvily in regards to H/G being 'right', it's not the same as saying they're Omg Epic True Love or whatever. I still don't know if Zuko/Mai is Omg Epic True Love, but I suspect the anvils can't be that bad in Avatar; as is, it's not such a huge leap given Mai's crush as a back-story. Probably the biggest problem people have is thinking too much of Zuko (like, he's too good for her and/or needs a different type of girl), just as people think too little of Ginny (and think naturally Harry 'needs' a different type of girl... though I myself apply the argument to Harry/Luna, but at least canon backs me up, haha).

You're totally right with it often working best to work backward in terms of character to explain attraction; I do that all the time, with myself & characters (which is why I get to be a canon whore, I guess, because 'backwards' means canon). I tend to take attraction for granted and work to explain how it happened and why using a 'history of how' as its base; there's a narrative there. Usually there's several possible narratives (depends whether you still like the relationship or not; you can easily make a narrative that glorifies it or makes it a mistake, whether it was happy or broke up). Love depends on narratives a lot in general, not just in fiction, but when we're trying to discuss it. On the other hand, in terms of present feeling, it paradoxically has no narrative or rhyme or reason and 'just happens' (blink and you'll miss it). It's a funny thing, love :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Interesting--what makes you see J/L in a different light than the other romances? To me they all seem very much the same. They are, I suspect, supposed to all be "meant to be," only since this isn't a grandly romantic universe "meant to be" means you get married and have kids that go to school. As someone has said, in this series being in love makes you an asshole--so all the relationships involve people either fighting each other or fighting as a united front against other people. James and Lily included.

I think there are probably plenty of relationships people naturally see as more interesting--with Harry/Luna, for instance, I think the Luna character pushes more buttons with Harry. Ginny always makes him feel safe and okay with himself, even when she's disagreeing with him. Luna's got that icky outcast thing that scares him (though probably nobody who knows him would ever suspect how obsessed he is with that). I think it often comes down to preferring the characters behavior with one person over another person.

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

Well, hahah I like Harry's behavior with Snape and Draco (and maybe Sirius) best, so to each his own, though I dunno about Luna pushing his buttons; Ron seems weirded out, Harry more weirdly comforted/understood, though he pities her (which is why I could never see it). I thought the main thing to like about H/L was that Luna had a way of speaking to issues others didn't really approach, and in a casual yet meaningful way... like Harry's issues with death, mainly. I think in a weird way, Luna also makes Harry feel good (or better, but then most of our friends make us feel 'better' one way or another), and she never quite agrees or disagrees. I do like them together! And I even agree H/L as a couple is more interesting/unique than H/G. Um but I don't see him 'like'-liking her, haha, is the thing. I also would describe it more as 'uncovering different facets' rather than 'pushing buttons', which seems more like what Draco does, in the sense that it's more knee-jerky and emotional. But anyway, J/L...

I think the reason I see it differently is that it's the only pairing set up with all the ingredients for traditional romance-- character-types, situation, and actual progression. While James is an asshole (heh), he grows out of it, and this is contrasted with Sirius and Snape in different ways, and of course Lily only wants him when he changes for her (after the whole Shack incident). She's beautiful and kind, and he's been obsessed with her for years, but they had a sort of teasing/sniping thing going on (like R/Hr), except because both of them are more glamorous and pretty, it's more, y'know, dramatic. They're both heroic-- not just brave, but, I mean, Lily is pure-hearted/righteous on a whole different level than either Ginny or Hermione, she's a legend. I think them both being 'legendary' contributes to my seeing J/L as the only truly 'Romantic' pairing, and also both of them going out of their way for love specifically (James changing for love of Lily, then dying to protect Lily & their son), and of course Lily being so symbolically a creature and a catalyst of love-- with Snape and James and Harry. They've got a lot of 'True Love' larger than life elements other characters don't. And I truly believe that James stopped being near so much of an asshole as he was-- otherwise Lily would never have went for it. She wasn't one to pick mindlessly on the Slytherins, since one used to be her best friend, haha. In any case, she's no Ginny :>

The only narrative that's near J/L in the 'Grand Romance' category is definitely Snape/Lily, hahahahaflkjasflkjfaslfkaj

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah. Harry pities here--I did mean that. But I mean, Harry's got real fears about being the loser who's picked on. So he reacts to people like Luna and Neville by being the protector, and he'll defend them to anyone who asks, but he doesn't want to be friends with them. He needs a sort of distance--though I suspect that's more JKR's way of seeing things. Harry's cool; of course he's not friends with seriously socially challenged kids. His true place is as the protector of those kids. Exactly like Ginny. She's awesome, because the perfect girl is not a weirdo. But she is the girl the weirdos love because she defends them and doesn't look down on them (unless you think seeing them as victims who need your protection from bullies is looking down on them).

In HBP Harry's amused when he can use Luna to make a statement against polite society with the party, but also uncomfortable when she talks about having no friends. I think if the two of them were really close friends Harry would feel uncomfortable a lot more often. (You realize of course that I don't think Luna does anything casually. Her not having any friends or having only the friends of Harry and Ginny etc seems like something she likes to make clear.)

While James is an asshole (heh), he grows out of it, and this is contrasted with Sirius and Snape in different ways, and of course Lily only wants him when he changes for her (after the whole Shack incident). She's beautiful and kind, and he's been obsessed with her for years, but they had a sort of teasing/sniping thing going on (like R/Hr), except because both of them are more glamorous and pretty, it's more, y'know, dramatic.

Maybe in theory, but when it happened that's totally not what happened. James was an asshole, but Lily liked that. He didn't change that we saw, and she wasn't very kind. Their one scene together she's trying to hide a smile at him at his worse. They came across like everyone else to me--they were pretty much set for who they were when they were 11. Lily is like Ginny. She has her ostentatiously compassionate side (feeling sorry for little Snape for his bad home life and TOTALLY NOT judging him for being ugly and poor/standing up for Luna and comforting random young children during the battle) but this doesn't interfere with enjoying nothing better than a righteous, humiliating smackdown. Lily's talked about as purehearted and righteous but in the actual canon we have of her she's pretty ordinary--I'd put her right on Ginny's level, actually. They're very similar imo.

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

Weeelllll... alfskjaslkj oh man. If you think Lily just feels sorry for poor ugly Snape, then I can't say anything :P I'm torn whether I think that's a valid interpretation or not-- since it's not like we get Lily's pov one way or the other. But it's certainly quite a cynical viewpoint, haha. Oh man. She was a child, right-- and they took to each other naturally, unless you think at 11 years old, she was 'just pretending' for some reason and 'just tolerating' him even though they seemed to hang out a lot, in school and out. Her relationship with her sister suffered, too, and wouldn't she have chosen her sister over Snape if he didn't mean that much to her? I see it as being complicated; he hurt her a lot with the Mudblood comment, and by the time the pantsing happened, they'd already reached a low point at the verge of 'splitting up'. I mean, Snape *was* a nasty jerk, and it's possibly a toss-up whether James was 'as bad', but basically she wasn't friends with James. She may have had an appreciation for 'mean humor', and may even have been feeling a bit vindictive by then, but... I think it's pretty clear to me, at least, that Lily cared for Snape and that Snape messed things up. Uh, but that's a whole 'nother subject. Er. Also, Snape & Lily had more than one scene together, non?

As for James & Lily, indeed they don't have more than 2-- one at the train first year and one with the pantsing. That's why I said it's more the 'legendary' status (that makes it grand romance) and also lots of implication/set-up elements. So the change James makes is by implication, but it's clear he's not the boy he was-- he became a Head Boy, he stopped messing around with Sirius so much, he was the one being recriminating about the Shack. Also, it doesn't make sense otherwise (unless he changed)-- unless you say Lily's distaste was fake. And I don't think it was just 'cause there's no reason for her to fake it... she could've accepted him much earlier, but didn't. She wasn't a saint, but she had her own ideas of behavior that she applied to both Snape & James... though it's true people (and JKR) overdo the righteousness. I think her extraordinariness is more in the effect she has on others, as I said-- as a catalyst. And she really is the only one who loved Snape (I think), so that in itself puts her in a party of one, hahah.

I don't think there's evidence she *enjoyed* Snape's 'smackdown'... certainly not in a gleeful way, which would imply she actually felt the same as James & Sirius about him, which makes no sense. They were both angry at each other; Snape was humiliated so he lashed out (Mudblood!), she was angry and hurt, shocked, etc. I don't think Snape would've cared for her unless she genuinely showed interest in him-- though he immediately got attached to her being pretty and also a Muggleborn, it can't be enough to explain the entire relationship. She could only have been genuinely outraged by James & Sirius' behavior on the train and afterwards-- certainly, Snape didn't deserve it then. And when Snape did deserve it, she told him-- she asked him to stop, questioned his choice of friends, etc, rather than just immediately looking down at him. With James, it's a lot more muddled, clearly, as for what happened-- but clearly (at least to me), *something* did. James was always different from Sirius, at least in that Sirius looked to James, but James looked to Lily (almost like Snape did). Even if it was fake on some level, I think he had to have 'cleaned up' for Lily, and it's clear he really loved her a lot, which was my main point, anyway: the most dramatic love. He died for her! heh. Though in that sense he's more than tied with Snape; Snape, however, never changed-- or indeed did anything-- while she lived.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

No, I didn't say she was pretending at all with Snape. I said she was shown as compassionate because when faced with an ugly kid in funny clothes she didn't react by teasing him or judging him--like Pansy would do. She was his friend. When I said feel sorry for him I was more thinking of his family situation. She's shown asking about his parents fighting at home, obviously being sympathetic and caring about that.

But she's attracted to James the asshole. She's not attracted to some nice guy who's totally reformed. At 11 James was just some kid who took on her and her best friend. By 15 she knows James better and already likes him despite his being at his worst.

I'm not making her out to be this evil liar who manipulated Snape into thinking she liked him when really she was a terrible friend (not that you're saying I'm doing that but that's the extreme end of the Not!Saint Lily thought). I'm saying that Lily was not, from what we see, any paragon of virtue, or particularly kind by my standards (rather than the author's). She was exactly what Ginny is, a girl who stands up when she sees people bullying the innocent and weak but also enjoys the right people beating up on others. Here, as I've said before, I think she's just mirroring the series' own ideals. So of course James is fine the way he is. The stuff Snape gets bent out of shape about is just James being a little too high spirited for his own good, a little too cocky. James' impulses to bully aren't the sign of anything too bad, they're just the natural downside of his passion for justice (just like Harry's torture impulses, Ginny's put-downs and violent outbursts, Lily's amusement at James, the Twins' more harmful practical jokes). It's Snape's bullying that's the sign of a problem because it's all about jealousy and weakness--he's a racist.

I don't think there's evidence she *enjoyed* Snape's 'smackdown'... certainly not in a gleeful way, which would imply she actually felt the same as James & Sirius about him, which makes no sense.

"Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as thought she was going to smile, said, 'Let him down!'

That's after everyone is cheering over James hefting Snape into the air. She's not just the same as James and Sirius in the scene, but she's already attracted to James in this scene, and what he does here doesn't put her off. It's obvious to me that Lily already likes James, and here I do have the author backing me up here that yes, she does. She's liking James in this scene, her face twitches because she's conflicted--she's angry about the injustice to Snape but also has positive feelings for James. I don't think her twitch of a smile is at Snape's slashing James' face, since it comes after Levicorpus. She thinks his response to Snape is funny but isn't letting him see that she likes him at all. Or maybe she just automatically laughs at people being pantsed--not a way to show a character as incredibly kind.

James is the guy Lily likes already. And we never see any indication that he changed at all besides that he "grew up" and his head unswelled a bit (which indicates the problem was that he was full of himself not that he was cruel). There's no big change for James, just the vague idea that he was a berk when he was 15. She also comes to consider Sirius a great friend and we know he never regretted anything he did as a teenager--neither did James, from what we see. If this is what she's attracted to--a guy mostly known for being a bully--I think she finds the bullying attractive. (Her relationship with her sister, too, is not destroyed by her being friends with Snape but by her being a witch and her sister being jealous, which Lily throws in her face.)

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

Haha ok but... fnlkasjfal it's funny how we agree but put emphasis on different things. I never said *I* thought Lily was particularly kind by my standards, though I think she's more sensitive to Slytherins than Ginny just by virtue of having a Slytherin friend (which... sort of sounds like having 'black friends' or 'gay friends', but anyway... uhh yeah this sounds bad). I guess I got carried away saying Lily was symbolic of love and/or more 'loving', but this wasn't to say she was saintly.

Anyway, you're right in that the thing with her sister was more to do with being a witch (man, these things mutate in my head when I haven't thought of the canon for long enough... urgh). But I don't think Lily was Snape's friend the same way Ginny is Luna's... though I actually think Ginny is more Luna's and Neville's friend than Harry is... like, I think they were closer, more... love. Can I actually back this up? God, I guess not. Your interpretation definitely works, of course.

I think it's true she always liked James on some level, was attracted to him, and that James was never 'that bad', etc. At the same time, it's clear that at some points in their 5th and 6th years, both James and Sirius were really getting out of control, and James 'repented' more than Sirius did; grew up a bit more-- of course, this isn't hard since basically Sirius didn't grow up at all. But I think there's some stuff in canon about how James shaped up in seventh year, though we clearly know next to nothing about it. There wasn't that much shaping up to do, I guess, but he no longer teased Snape, at least so blatantly, I believe. I think he wanted her approval.

I didn't mean to turn this into some over-arching justification for either of them, just to say they have more grand/epic elements than H/G or R/Hr, but in some ways there are definitely still similarities. The big thing that really transforms J/L is the presence of Snape and them dying (through betrayal, no less). That really pumps up their story at lot, from a potential romance level point of view. Like I said earlier about romance in general, I suppose you can always take the same facts and make a different narrative out of it-- depending what point you're trying to make. With H/G, I see less attempts by canon to make the story epic-- as you acknowledged, at least, there's a 'supposed to be' level in J/L that's pretty grandiose even if the characterization is more ordinary and repetitive. I mix up the intented glamour and actuality a bit too much, but speaking of True Love, for me the intent/stylization is important for the reasons of shifting narrative I mentioned.

I agree Lily is conflicted-- feeling bad about the pantsing but helplessly liking James' antics. Like I said, an appreciation for James' (and possibly Snape's, at some point!) 'mean humor'. But that doesn't really speak horridly of her character, necessarily, or mean she's actually a mean person who gloated at a friend's pain, etc. I do agree it's not a big change, because he was already supposed to be fine, not like Snape needed to change-- but it's still *romantic* that he shaped up for her. Here I want to separate what's romantic from what's admirable :P Trying to keep the romantic thread hanging when you're just being reasonable is hard :)) hahahaflsjklasj I was trying to explain my reasoning for seeing J/L as the most romantic narrative, remember :>

I do still think that it's not the bullying she finds attractive, per se, because that *would* make her actually actively horrid/hypocritical/mean, not just 'not that kind'. James is cute. Hell, Draco is cute. That doesn't mean Draco is cute because he's mean, but the cute way he's mean is... well, why he's cute. Y'know? This doesn't mean I like Draco because I like mean people. But I do like a lot of people who happen to be mean sometimes, but in particular ways, y'know. ^^;;;; James really was hot-headed, swaggery & cocky, funny & charming, etc, so even when he went too far it was hard to hate him. But since I like James, my opinion is probably moot ^^;;;

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, you're right about Ginny and Luna vs. Lily and Snape. S/L is presented as a friendship while Luna is presented as this girl who's picked on and that's how Ginny meets her. Snape might be funny-looking but nobody's picking on him when Lily meets him. With Snape I think it's more showing that Lily doesn't judge people on superficial things the way Draco or Pansy would. With Luna it's that Ginny is great because she doesn't join in picking on Luna and stands up to other people who do. Lily doesn't have to stick up for Snape until they meet MWPP.

We don't really get anything about whether James changed any more than Sirius did, I don't think, since we don't see him. I think what we're told is that they're both made Head Boy and Girl in 7th year (why on earth James would be made Head Boy is a mystery...) and there's a vague mention of James having deflated his head a bit. It's more like the way somebody might say, if somebody saw Harry raging around in OotP, "well, Ginny started going out with him the next year, after he'd calmed the fuck down a little." It's not that there was some big change in Harry, he's just not as intense in that way later.

In some ways Sirius changed a lot more than James, growing old in jail. He just didn't regret anything about Snape or anything that he and James had done together. Did James? I don't know, but not necessarily. James did, presumably, want her to date him. But I don't think he necessarily changed any more or less than Sirius, even if Lily gave him a reason to reign himself in a little that Sirius didn't have.

I guess I'm not sure I even see James and Lily as "supposed to be epic." I think it's supposed to be sad that they died and that they were happily married, but I don't see them as any more epic a pair than Harry and Ginny or Ron and Hermione. They were a bickering couple who really liked each other underneath--tragic that they died young, but not otherwise tragic. Even the whole idea that Lily "changed" James is getting a little out of proportion. We didn't learn James needed any changing until the fifth book where he comes off badly to Harry, and the response isn't any story of Lily changing him but his friends laughing about how James could be an idiot at that age.

The change idea was even further put down in DH when we find out the Prank came before SWM. That was the thing that had previously been connected to James' change, because that was the heroic thing he did. Only it turned out he did that before SWM--probably it was more that that got Lily's attention. It's just that this whole idea that James shaped up for Lily really isn't supported in canon. It's just a joke--James stopped hexing Snape where Lily could see him and she agreed to go out with him in 7th year since by then his head had deflated a bit. At least that's the way I'm remember it now.

It seems more like James was always the good guy and Snape was always fatally flawed, and while good!Lily was friends with little, more innocent Snape she grew up to love the good man James was always going to grow up to be. No more fundamentally changed from the kid on the train than anyone else (because nobody changes much in this universe; their choices just gradually show who they are).

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

Ahh, the change thing. You're right about people revealing vs changing in this universe, and though that doesn't always get to me, I do like a basic arc.... ugh. Well, there's Snape, haha, though that's definitely debatable.

In the end, I was just thinking I think of Snape/Lily (and Dumbledore/Grindelwald) as 'most romantic', but I didn't mention it because ummm, I don't think they're really written that way? Though what does that really mean? Do I use my definition of romance or the one used in the text, especially when H/G and S/L are like, on the opposite ends of the 'what's romantic/True Love' spectrum... buuuut at the same time, well, perhaps it's easier to fudge the edges with J/L a bit more 'cause we *see* H/G and clearly they're not epic, just some badly-written hormones and basic straightforward compatibility (plus a little obsessiveness, esp. on Ginny's part always a plus). On the other hand, what does it mean to think James' persistence in 'courting' Lily is more 'romantic' than Ginny's fixation? Ehhh, even I can't keep track of my possible narratives, hahaha. You're right in that I went a bit out of proportion and exaggerated to justify the J/L-- I mean, I don't really think it's 'epic romance', just more romantic than H/G, which doesn't take much.

The funny thing really... lafkjsflksajf the funny thing is that uhhh I believe that that's how life works, in a certain sense-- our choices do gradually show who we are, and nature influences nurture (as nurture influences nature, but less so... it's more that I think nurture defines what bits of nature are exposed and when and how), and free will exists but is exercised in a very limited fashion by the majority of people. So my main issue with JKR is that in practice, the way people act is less predictable; while in every case you can say 'you saw it coming' (people are rarely surprising in retrospect), in terms of predicting their actions, you should be surprised-- or, should I say, there's the illusion of change, which you later see fits into a pattern for that individual when you think about it; its' not that people's choices are set, it's that the motivations for their choices follow an arc that begins at the beginning and is therefore consistent, basically. The way she wrote it, it's like everything goes along according to plan-- people have... not just personalities but destinies, for lack of a better term. It's not just that Snape is flawed-- because he is, and most people in most narratives would have those flaws remain in some fashion-- it's that his actions, firstly, seem overly limited (even for his stated personality) and don't have quite the effect they could have. Same with Draco and Harry. My point is, the problem isn't so straightforward as 'people don't change', because you can have a decent (and believable) narrative where indeed people are doomed from the get-go (like say, Oedipus), but there's still a valid arc. I don't know. ^^;

As I said in the beginning, almost everything I could say about J/L is implication and therefore a lot of 'reading into things', haha, so if you confront me on that I have to fold. That said, I definitely don't see *more* True Love epicness with H/G, so I wouldn't single *them* out as 'supposed to be' either. It's just all kind of... um, blah, on the romance front, though I do still love the doomed ones. I always love the doomed ones :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Afterthought: One thing I think this comes down to is just what the author's writing. It's not that I don't think JKR has any kindness in her as a person, but given the emotions she's focusing on in these books, there's just very little of it. There's too much revenge on mean people at school or showing people who think they're so great and punishing the wicked and fixing injustice. That's what I think is considered attractive in the world, not compassion. What Ursula LeGuin called "ethically mean-spirited." Most people in the books are ethically mean-spirited, including Lily. She's not particularly mean-spirited, but as one of the shining stars she shares their outlook.

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

Well, I agree (though I'm not sure how we got from romance/compassion to 'true' kindness rather than romance, which tends to produce rather selfish kindnesses), but... her being ethically mean-spirited is sort of irrelevant in this context, at least it was to me? Anyway, in a general sense there's two sorts of 'compassion'-- one driven by justice and one by mercy. This... I don't actually prioritize them, necessarily, in a theoretical sense, since you have be truly just (and harsh) or truly merciful (and altruistic), and both are necessary and admirable. They're extremes of character, too, so you rarely see either.

Most people in general, especially practical/hands-on rational types, are probably more justice-driven, and I've come to terms with that, haha. I'm definitely not of their ilk, but it's apersonality thing. If you can be good at being the way you are, I guess it's fine with me; being just yet compassionate insofar as that fits is also traditional for heroes. You very rarely have heroes (not antiheroes and not like, priestly mentors) that aren't that way on some level... or worse. Sometimes it really is very jarring because no only are they 'ethically mean-spirited', they're actually also bitchy and hardass and just plain not nice, haha. This is all typical for hero types these days, men or women. On that scale (like compared to the Hollows books), I think Lily is pretty nice, haha. They're all very judgmental, hard-line, closed-minded, etc. Those damn Js, ruining everything!!! D: D: hahahafhlfksajflkasjflkasjlkasj Um. I'm overly amused, I know. >__> I try to be all 'there there, go on and, uh, protect us from the wicked', or whatever, just 'cause basically if you can't beat 'em, accept 'em :>

[godspoodle.livejournal.com]

Anyway, uh. ^^;; You're right in that if they were closer, he'd feel uncomfortable more often (and I agree about the rest of your assessment; it's not that I think Luna's 'casual' as in flippant, but she's casual as in she speaks plainly which can sort of put Harry at ease and not at the same time), but at the same time I think they have a weird connection in terms of their history, so if and when they're talking about that, he's comforted rather than uncomfortable. I can see what you mean about 'pushing buttons', though he seems to avoid dealing with it entirely rather than overreacting like with Draco.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

In some ways, I think this is an area where fandom itself makes a difference. Because so much thought and analysis goes into the various characters and especially as these are often "series" stories where the conversations are going on while the story is developing, there's a deeper investment. So I think a big change, like a romance, is felt to need a bigger sell by the audience. Whereas the author or creator of this non-romance based world, sort of feels like the sell doesn't need to be that hard. Does that make sense?

I don't think the audience's request for a harder sell is a bad thing, necessarily. Anything that demands a better told tale is good. But I think sometimes it means fans are asking for something almost unrealistically detailed. They're not allowing the story to flow. Or, maybe more accurately, by predicting the story is going to flow in one direction and arguing that view point against others, instead of just allowing the story flow, they need an actual argument for this choice specifically lined up against another story-telling choice. Which, that's not how stories are told.

Heh. I'm not sure I'm making sense at all, but I'll send it on through. ;)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That does make sense. There is a difference, like Reena said above, about working backwards. If you just accept the ship and then ask what that says about the character you might get a different answer than starting with the question of "Who is the best girl for X?"

I do think people probably also just prefer any story where they feel involved in the developments rather than just being told. In romances there's usually so much care put into making the audience root for the couple, and in other stories there really isn't. That doesn't always ruin the story, but it can detract from somebody's enjoyment of it if they want to root for them or at least feel something more when they finally get together.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I made sense. :) This is pinging on some thoughts I've been having regarding serial stories and fandom and expectations and whether some of those expectations are maybe too much... or not...

In romances there's usually so much care put into making the audience root for the couple, and in other stories there really isn't.

Yes! And within fandom we get fanfic which is so often romance-based (at least the ones I read *g*), and you get really good writers creating a 'ship that will never happen in the actual story, and everyone knows it intellectually. But the bar gets raised for the original story-teller in a way they certainly never expected, and possibly aren't even aware of (though that's changing). And of course, if it's a 'ship that has a possibility of happening, the tangle gets even worse.

Complicating it further, if the original story isn't a romance, so any romance told is more of a background flavor, it may be impossible for the story-teller to match the development of a good romance. Either it's not their thing, or it just doesn't fit the genre. And sometimes I think fandom needs to remember that. (Though, that doesn't mean we shouldn't examine and critique the stories. Badly told is badly told, after all.)

[ginzai.livejournal.com]

I dislike Harry/Ginny to a huge extent. (This is a huge shocker, I know.) I think it was shoehorned in and I hated that the changes in Ginny's character felt like they were done entirely to explain Harry's sudden interest in her (and far more so that we were told about them, rather than seeing them develop over time). On the other hand, I think Zuko/Mai is rather sweet - I just think it was handled in an extremely poor fashion, particularly at the start of season three. If they had animated their "date" in the comic book, I doubt there would have been as vehement reaction against the pairing. It was (again) the randomness of it that drove watchers crazy, especially when they felt so awkward together. I think that comes too close to reality for some viewers. They want to live vicariously through these characters, not watch and remember all of their own teenage awkwardness and angst.

Personally, I like Zuko/Mai in huge part because of that. I think they're refreshing, and as others have mentioned, the pairing feels very honest and realistic, especially after the initial 'when did that happen?' sensation passed. Then again, I don't view romantic couplings as a way to view myself with either character; I don't put myself into Mai's role, nor do I think that Zuko is sex incarnate. Like with most of my favorite characters, I'd rather sit the boy down and give him tea and a hot meal and tell him he needs to cut his hair rather than make out with him. This might be why I can enjoy their awkwardness, rather than be repelled by it.

I've the same issues with Katara and Aang as I do Harry and Ginny. It's partially that the girl is being viewed as a prize whose love is guaranteed following the major victory (as someone else pointed out above), but also that I see very few hints that Katara is in love with Aang before they get together. I see a lot made of their dance in the Footloose episode, but that seemed far more like girls that I knew who would flirt with their friends' little brothers because they were safe targets to practice on. I see far more hints that she's uncomfortable with the situation, especially in season three, after she finally realizes that Aang has feelings for her. She goes from literally pushing him away and being angry that he kisses her to embracing him in the moonlight, with no resolution of her internal conflict and concerns. It's taking short-cuts in the storytelling, and that just cheapens the experience.

(Please, btw, don't take my opinion as that of a jilted Katara/Zuko shipper. I do like them together and think that there's a valid basis for the couple in canon, but I also like Zuko/Mai a lot and I hate it when people dismiss Mai as a serious romantic interest. Her relationship with Zuko feels significantly more real to me than Katara's with Aang, which is why I can happily read fic with K/Z or M/Z but find that K/A leaves me cold.)

The long and short of it is that I've issues with any characterization that is driven by the plot, rather than the other way around, and I tie romance into this just as much as I do character growth and action. It's sloppy writing, and it's annoying because the actions of the characters just ring false. It's not just that two characters are attracted to each other and want to make out (I've no issues with that), it's that there's no build up to make me suspect that they are attracted to each other. For that matter, if it were just a teenage romance presented to me, I'd be all for it - even Harry/Ginny. But it's not presented as casual, or even a melodramatic teenage love affair; it's True Love and Soulmates and OTPs and all the rest, and to me, if you want to write such a serious relationship, you need serious development to back it up.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I admit I tend to feel the same way about Aang/Katara--and I don't ship Zuko/Katara either. I think the fact that Aang looks so young is a really big part of it. Maybe I'm projecting my own feelings onto Katara, but I just don't follow her feelings in this, so I wind up just having to see it as a plot thing. Zuko/Mai works for me since they are at least an obvious pairing given their ages. I mean, there's not that many teenaged girls to choose from and one of the fire nation girls is an obvious choice. For the same reason I'm not surprised when Ty Lee has her little interest in Sokka or Toph gets a crush on Sokka. Or even when Aang starts crushing on Katara. Or Katara likes Jet!

It's just about feeling real, like you said, and maybe not being aware of plot-machinations when you're reading it. It's not like even in a romance you love you don't know that you're reading fiction. Pride & Prejudice is just as plotted as anything else. But you want something to feel inevitable for a reason other than it's where the author is going, even if it's a subplot. Which doesn't mean you need emotional reasons for somebody to like somebody else. But if it's physical you have to believe the physical.

[leia-naberrie.livejournal.com]

I don't know. On the one hand, of course it's realistic for teenage boys to suddenly crush on hot girls. On the other hand, like aasylva, I'll buy that as long as I don't have to believe it's True Love. Sudden attraction does build up to true love but when both are presented as occuring at the same time (or as identical!) with the argument of adolescent hormones to explain the suddeness, it contradicts itself and falls flat.

The story never communicates how Harry's feelings for Ginny were more profound for the identical ones he once had for Cho - attraction, jealousy towards suitors, awkwardness and the desire to impress, joy when she takes his side, then triumph when he gets her. Ginny would have been the 'truer' love if a friendship had been established between her and Harry first - something lacking in the Cho affair - but the book that sets them up as friends overshadows that relationship with the bond he forms with Luna Lovegood.

It'll always be a bit disturbing the way Ginny has to transform herself to a meaner version of her boyfriend's ex to get him. Now that is perfectly realistic in terms of teenage dynamics. However it is never treated as such. Instead we're expected to take Ginny's behaviour, which goes against every "Don't Change Yourself for a Man" rule in the book, as a necessary ingredient to achieve True Love. *mind boggles*

Re: Avatar. Perhaps the Zutharan was arguing about the fact that Maiko began offscreen? The comic strip on the website should not have been the vehicle to launch that romance. There was a missing bridge showing how the romance progressed from Mai blushing at Zuko when they're itty and a grown Zuko not knowing what to do on a date to easy going Maikouts on ship decks and picnic dates. Even Harry got the Chest Monster of Lovestruckdom. Maiko is rather like H/G that jumps from page 55 where Ginny gives a Harry singing Get Well card that he chucks in irritation to page 56 where Harry has sunshiny days by the lake with said girl. It works for me because I've read the strip but before I did, it just read like M&B trying to shut up Zutharans as quickly as possible.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, there's a big difference when it's supposed to be true love. If you're presenting something as true love you have raised the bar for yourself--you have to make people believe it. Or else just accept that it's flat--like having Arwen show up at the end of LOTR. In that case we don't really doubt it because we're just told it, but it's not like you have any clue just what they see in each other besides that they're who they are. Sam Gamgee is in an even odder place since Tolkien unfortunately seemed to want to end him with a happy marriage that implied his personal love for Rosie was important while completely spatchcocking her on in the end. We can accept "and then he went home and got married," but if it's supposed to be important who he married, we won't care if we don't know her.

But yeah, that's the thing in HP. It's not that I have any trouble believing that Harry wanted to date Ginny, but as with everyone else in the books we're being shown petty teen romance that we're then supposed to take as something that lasts a lifetime and that's a hard one. If the books had gone from GoF to the epilogue you could swap Cho in for Ginny and get exactly the same result because all it's really saying is that the girl Ginny likes now is his wife later.

Re:Avatar that is totally what the person was referring to, I think. The comic book was brought up as explaining how Zuko and Mai got together and the person said why should we accept that happening somewhere else and not Zutara? Which just struck me as odd because Zuko and Mai didn't happen off-screen. I, personally, didn't need to see them go from two kids who knew each other to two kids who were dating because I figured there wasn't really a story to it beyond that we know she liked Zuko so Zuko then went out with her. It wasn't true love at that point, it was just a goofy teenaged couple. Once they're going out Mai acts as a confident and counselor and Zuko talks to her. They really didn't know each other well when they started going out imo.

[leia-naberrie.livejournal.com]

Do you mean you didn't need to read the comic strip to accept Maiko or that you literally didn't read the comic strip prior to 3x1 and didn't feel any confusion at the established relationship in that episode?

I've never actually read the Lord of the Rings books *blushes* but I'm suprisingly OK with Rose and Arwen being the hero's prizes simply because as characters they're never given a personality or agency beyond being the hero's prize and the heroes are defined from the start as wanting these particular prizes. "Lord of the Rings" has no subplot of Arragorn falling in love with Arwen. He's always been in love with her from the first moment his character is introduced. It's not part of the story any more than, say, Sokka making the boomerang is part of his story. He's always had the boomerang.

The conflict/confusion with contemporary romances like Maiko is that Mai is not introduced and is certainly not defined as Zuko's anything. (Unlike Ty Lee, she's not introduced as Azula's either). And the same goes for Zuko: it's not part of his character profile that he's in love with Mai. The falling in love bit is part of the story, maybe not the most important part but it's certainly not the done deal that Arragorn/Arwen is.

So much word on the GoF to epilogue theory.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Do you mean you didn't need to read the comic strip to accept Maiko or that you literally didn't read the comic strip prior to 3x1 and didn't feel any confusion at the established relationship in that episode?

Both. I think I read the comic book pretty close to the end of the series. I didn't feel any confusion when they were together in 3x1 at all. I'd seen that Mai liked Zuko, and that Zuko was a little nervous around her too when they were kids. Now that he was back in the fold as it wasn't a leap for me to start off six weeks later and find out they'd started dating. It didn't seem like any sort of jump except for what it was, which was picking up six weeks later and things had happened. They seemed to begin and end like two teenagers who were into each other. Mai's declaration of love fit into that for me. It wasn't that their love was so epic, but I bought that her relationship with Zuko had given her something she cared about enough to take a stand and she loved him for it.

I'm suprisingly OK with Rose and Arwen being the hero's prizes simply because as characters they're never given a personality or agency beyond being the hero's prize and the heroes are defined from the start as wanting these particular prizes.

Actually, Rosie isn't introduced until way late in the third book iirc. Sam's completely unattached when he leaves for the quest and then I think when they're nearing the end suddenly mentions that he kind of likes this Rosie girl but she's probably taken up with somebody else since he's been gone.

But still, I don't feel like she can't come running up to him when they return and obviously be somebody he's kind of got a thing with. What I actually didn't like was iirc there was a scene that wasn't in the final ms that gave more of Rosie's pov, where she starts talking, years later, about how she just knew Sam was coming back that day and had been waiting for him...*that* I found jarring because it seemed like trying to slip something in there that just hadn't been earned. Basically, retconning in some sort of great True Love that already existed before Sam left instead of what it was, which was just a little more domestic.

But Aragorn is definitely supposed to be in love with Arwen from the beginning--even if we don't really know her or know anything about their relationship ever.

[leia-naberrie.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting perspective about Maiko. My husband and I watched 3x1 expecting a reveal for how they got together at some point in time in the first few episodes and that never happened. It's about the only established plot in the 1st episode that doesn't get "and this is how we got here". There's a lot of exposition that (I later realised) summarized the web comics - Earth King and Bosco, Invasion of the Earth Kingdom (which actually found redundant because it was such the natural next step to Azula/Zuko's conquest at the end of Book 2) and the capture of the Fire Navy vessel. Maiko, on the other hand, doesn't get that set up in an episode of set ups and that's structurally jarring. I expected it would come later and The Beach seems to explain why the're together - that it's a bit deeper than a random hook up - but it doesn't go into the how.

"Zuko Alone" & the incidents with Song and Jin establish Zuko as out of his element with girls in general - it doesn't set Zuko up as reacting to Mai in particular or even noticing her outside his natural instinct to save her from the apple. How he progresses from there to casual PDA in 3x1 (and how Mai went from his bounty hunter to the more confident half of that pairing) was not just a jump in time but in character and plot - the two things that actually make a story, a story. Using the Sokka example, that would be like having Sokka own the space sword in 3x1 with the explanation that he's always loved gadgets the only explanation as to why he owns the sword but no explanation as the why.

Like I said, I'd never read Lord of the Rings but that's a valid observation about Rose. She's not introduced early as part of Sam's profile. Maiko echoes this in a smaller scale when Zuko's interest in Mai is assumed as established in the 3rd act when there's been no prior set up for it. It gets away with this better because Mai is not a new character and her interest in him is revealed quite early. It's part of the reason why some fans regard it as a retcon, especially when compared to the other major romances which begin within the 1st quarter of the 1st act.

More about Arragorn/Arwen would have gone towards showing us more about Arragorn's character but I'm not sure if that would have fit in the structure of the story (there's no "love story" subplot: the ship is part of the background) and it doesn't need to at any rate because the relationship doesn't reveal anything new about his character - not like if Arwen was a character on the other side of the war.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the Aragorn/Arwen thing is basically just in an appendix. Sort of "if you're interested, here's what happened in the past." But it doesn't go against anything with Aragorn from before--nor does Rosie with Sam.

I'm trying to remember exactly what my reaction to 3x1 was. Maybe I was just expecting Mai/Zuko since seeing that she liked him as a kid? Because that was pretty much enough for me. That he wasn't crushing on her the same way back then was explained by him being 16 now. I don't remember if I was surprised by his casual PDA. I tihnk I just thought he's 16 now and he has a girlfriend. They've been together for long enough that they're really into making out and leaning against each other. Thinking back I guess I felt like I knew how they got together. If the show didn't give me a special story for it I figured it was just so ordinary it was boring. Mai thought he was hot, he thought she was hot. They probably talked together a lot, making slightly stilted conversation. They went off without the others and thought the other one was cool and then that led into them going out. Since neither of them had been with anybody else when last I saw them it didn't seem jarring to me. I didn't need a particular sign that he was focused on her before that because I figured he wasn't.

[jlh.livejournal.com]

I know, finally! But yesterday afternoon was surprisingly busy at work.

I think the problem is that Mai/Zuko doesn't exactly happen "offstage" and that's why the parallel doesn't work. I suppose if you posit that they were not dating pre-banishment but were only sort of interested in each other, so they don't really "get together" until after that, you can say it, but in a way that doesn't really work--how can Mai work up that much love for Zuko when she's dated him for at most a few months after he's been gone for over a year before that?

Really, the problem with M/Z is that Mai as a character and Mai/Zuko as an established relationship is introduced so late in the show. And the "this is why I love her" stuff from Zuko to Mai doesn't really become explicit until Boiling Rock. (Her to him is clearer in The Beach, but it's played rather subtly while many other loud things are going on.) So by the time you get the explanation, it's later than one had hoped for the viewers to really be invested in this relationship. It's why I sometimes say that those early M/Z shippers got lucky, because they liked Mai, and while you can see that narratively there isn't much other reason for her to be there, we all know that most TV show romances don't hang together that well.

As for H/G, if we had seen even one of those "several sunlit days" in HBP the whole thing would have been more convincing. Also, and this may be very pumpkin pie-ish of me, but I really do feel like any girl that was made for Harry wouldn't have let him pull that silly breaking up with her stunt at the end of HBP. The larger problem with H/G, it seems to me, is that JKR sets up a universe in which girls do things, and then gives Harry a girl who is a cliched narrative prize who doesn't do much of anything at all. It's very Amy/Laurie in a lot of ways--a boy (Harry/Laurie) might be close friends with a girl that is clever and capable (Hermione/Jo), but he wants a traditional girl (Ginny/Amy) when it's time to take a wife. It's no shock that a crazy large percentage of H/H shippers were disappointed Jo/Laurie shippers back in the day--or Anne/Gilbert lovers.

Mai/Zuko is very different, and really so is Aang/Katara and Sokka/Suki. All three of those boys like that their girls can kick a lot of ass, and both Sokka and Zuko say so specifically; Sokka and Katara's father openly admires Suki's skills and praises his daughter, so this is a whole "girls kicking ass is awesome and also hot" universe.

But setting that aside, I think it's much tougher to put forth the arbitrary sex part in a teen romance than in a more adult one, not because oh, think of the children, but because adults can be more knowing about sex--instead of being all, "omg, what is this?" they can be "I am clearly hot for you." And in a sense, M/Z is more of an adult relationship, more openly "I am hot for you." And Aang's feelings about Katara are clearly sexual, as Aang keeps staring at the super hot Katara. (One other problem is that in having Aang as the youngish star of a Nick show is that Katara couldn't really do the same, and I can't decide if that was the fault of Nick or Mike and Bryan being boys and not getting it.) Harry doesn't really understand his chest monster; Aang really understands his. Aang knows exactly what he wants. But Harry as a character is so much less in touch with his emotions and his instincts, is so much less intellectual and wise than Aang, that he never knows what he's doing, and that also makes the romance really unsatisfying.

So, I would say that these two ships do not happen offstage in the same ways, and that's your parallel problem right there.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's true, they were very different. I was kind of fascinated with the idea that the fact that we didn't see Mai and Zuko start going out but only found out they had onscreen was being compared to reading romantic things into Zuko and Katara's interactions on screen when they never were romantic. So that they were both supposed to be happening off screen.

Not that I think it's wrong to read sexual tension into scenes just because the two characters never get together--there are plenty of things that are based on unspoken sexual tension. It was just using the expression two different ways. I guess maybe what the person was saying was that the show could just as well have put Zuko and Katara together just as randomly and then told us to accept it. Which yeah, they could have!

HP has such a conflicted attitude about the kickass girl thing in a way. Hermione is in so many ways better than Harry and yet she's totally his helper. It's like her duty in life is to assist in his quest--which is great. Nothing wrong with being the helper. It's like Scully/Starbuck to Mulder. Only it's almost like her romance was planned the same way--it's all for Harry's sake because that way Ron doesn't get left out and since Hermione arbitrarily likes Ron always and never likes Harry the two of them never have a second's moment of tension about that. So Hermione sort of winds up being a prize too, for Ron. She's what keeps him from being the loser.

And yet at the same time, it's these choices with H/G and R/Hr that keep the romance on that "they just like each other" level rather than being like fanfic where we get into the psychology of it and why the person likes the other person. (Actually for Ron/Hermione I always point to the moment where Ron throws away Percy's letter in OotP. That sums up why Hermione is supposed to like him for me.) If Harry and Hermione were together we'd have to get that because their dynamic is one of the few detailed ones in the book. We see how Hermione prods him, how he sometimes gets snippy or yells at her and she gets tearful. If they were in a romance it would be hard for Harry to suddenly disconnect so much that he's talking about chest monsters. He *knows* how he feels about Hermione and Ron. He literally doesn't know how he feels about Ginny, even in the end. He just knows if she gets married in the future it makes him angry to think it's to someone else.

But yeah, I also think that ironically Avatar is more adult with its teen romances because it is far more comfortable with the "I find you hot" plan. Though all the things you say about Mai/Zuko are true, how the real problem is that it comes so late and so a lot of people who don't just instinctively get it are playing catch up, both that and Sokka/Suki rely very much on sexual compatibility it seems. I tend to see Zuko/Mai even at the end of the show as being very much too teenagers all het up about each other who still have a while to go before they hit a mature love. Not that this makes me not believe Mai's announcement about loving him--it's just that it's a dramatic announcement that goes along with all the other drama. She wants to get out from under Azula's thumb and Zuko gives her the inspiration to do that and she loves him for it. For me it doesn't have to be proof that they're meant to be--I can buy that moment without it, in a way.

Aang/Katara then has a problem because it's harder to convey that. Even in the joke ending at ComicCon they've got Aang saying, "Teach me, teach me, my love!" about sex. Though Katara doesn't seem all that ready to teach.

Wow, I've never thought about it before, but that's a really interesting difference between the two. It's like with Aang/Katara they're forced to hint more at "true love" because Aang's a 12-year-old crushing on a 14-year-old--it's sexual, but in a shyer way, and while Katara is easily attacted to Jet it's hard to think she isn't at least a little put off by the fact that Aang is so young and she just can't look back at him the same way, as you say.

But also word on the whole "sure the guy will be friends with that girl, but when it comes time to get married he wants the traditional girl!" Because I hate that and yet it's totally true. Often in life, which is worse.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Only it's almost like her romance was planned the same way--it's all for Harry's sake because that way Ron doesn't get left out and since Hermione arbitrarily likes Ron always and never likes Harry the two of them never have a second's moment of tension about that. So Hermione sort of winds up being a prize too, for Ron. She's what keeps him from being the loser.

Exactly. I classify this in my mind as Rowling's "OBHWF cookie-cutter simplistic plan". The jigsaw is set up so that everyone gets a partner. Dear Ron isn't left out in the cold.

Rowling split up the HP Trio a few times - the broom incident in PoA, Ron's desertion in GoF and again in DH - but in the end there was no romantic tension between the three. Harry's biggest concern was about Ron's brotherly instincts with regard to Ginny.

I've wondered occasionally what might have happened back in the forest, after Ron clobbered the locket!horcrux, had Harry said "well, mate ... I love her too." (maybe waiting until Ron had put the sword down :D).

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Probably Ron would have cursed his fate and given up. A battle between the two of them for Hermione would have been humiliating. Even if Hermione herself said she preferred Ron I suspect Harry's interest would have destroyed the relationship because of Ron's insecurity (which we all know he doesn't get over even after a storyline about him getting over it).

Of course, I found Ron/Lavender a pretty good couple--actually, it illustrates my point too. Ron has no particular interest in Lavender before HBP, nor does she for him. But I had no problem believing she'd developed an interest and that he was thrilled with the idea once the possibility was suggested. A painfully ordinary teenaged couple with no better or worse chance of winding up married as anybody else. It's doomed from the start, of course, because Ron already likes Hermione but also because Lavender's interest is immediately kind of marked out as untrue because there's a sense she only likes him now because of the stories about the MoM. (Which is totally different than Ginny crushing on Harry before she's even met him because he's the boy who lived.)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I'm anti-H/G and I've enjoyed reading both your post and your responses to others here, very insightful. I've learnt a lot. Gained much new ammunition. :-)

... because of Ron's insecurity (which we all know he doesn't get over even after a storyline about him getting over it).

Can you elaborate on Ron's "not getting over it"? I can't recall any clues that he's still insecure about Hermione after the evil!Voldemort!H/Hr scene and Harry's "like a sister" declaration.

A very well known H/G fanfic author once happily compared R/Hr to a "knight's quest", where the lady would set out a number of tasks/challenges for the knight to complete in order to win her hand. R/Hr really seemed that way to me, too ... although I couldn't see that as a good thing. If we were to take the "bickering means true love" trope as true - which I would have preferred had been left with the bad television sitcoms - then Hermione had selected Ron as her love interest back in book 2 or 3. According to the OBHWF fans anyway. Which means Hermione was just sitting there for four or five years, waiting for Ron to grow up. Finally, in DH, he mentions the Hogwarts house elves, she ticks that item off her list - "he thought of the house elves ... hey, that's the last item on my list, I can snog him now!". No romantic tension or complexity, it's all part of the 'cookie cutter' template, Hermione was *always* there for Ron, just like Ginny was there waiting for Harry to notice her.

A painfully ordinary teenaged couple with no better or worse chance of winding up married as anybody else.

I've never really thought about Ron/Lavender, which is interesting, because now that you mention it ... I discounted them because it was *obvious* that it was "doomed from the start", as you state ... and yet it is similar in composition to H/G. All physical attraction, no deeper emotional depth mentioned, girl crushing on the boy's reputation/title rather than the individual and so forth. Wow. Never thought to compare the two couples before.

But one of these "painfully ordinary teenage" romances is lauded as a match made in heaven between soulmates. Amazing!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Can you elaborate on Ron's "not getting over it"? I can't recall any clues that he's still insecure about Hermione after the evil!Voldemort!H/Hr scene and Harry's "like a sister" declaration.

Oh, there isn't. I was referring to the way Ron gets a whole storyline about gaining confidence at Quidditch in OotP and then gets the exact same story in HBP. So if Harry had expressed interest in Hermione I can't see him ever really not being insecure about it, even if Hermione was never interested back. He'd always be worried she was going to leave him for Harry.

I do think Hermione just selected Ron back in PS and never even considered Harry or anyone else. She pretty much does seem to just be waiting for Ron, never sure the right way to get him to shape up. When he starts showing clumsy interest she doesn't react quite the right way etc.