On warnings

[sistermagpie]

Having just read a bunch of posts on warnings in fics that didn't actually cover my own feelings about them? I thought I would share them!

A lot of the discussion has centered around triggers, which I think is important, but even as someone who doesn't think of herself as really having any triggers, warnings are still important to me.

There's very few movies or books I've read or seen IRL that I didn't feel warned me in some way, usually through advertising. I've read some concern that warnings about serious subjects says something troubling about handling serious subjects, but here's where I think the fanfic part is really important. Something like Harry Potter, for instance, is warned. I mean, the canon. There are plenty of things we know we won't get in HP canon. And I know that people will point out that there are actually a lot of "warnable" things in HP--rape, bestiality, murder, torture, alcoholism. Those things happen in the books, but we know how they're going to happen. Implied suggestions of Aberforth Dumbledore having an unnatural relationship with his goat are funny and fit the book. If Harry had walked in on Aberforth doing his goat like in an NC-17 Aberforth/goat fic that warned of bestiality? Not so much. Even in scenes that get close to the line they don't cross it. Sectumsempra is bloody, but not in the way it would be in an adult true crime novel.

In fanfic we lose all the warnings that HP the canon comes with. Everything you know about HP gets thrown out once you're in fanfic, so warnings will describe what kind of story we're going to read. For me this isn't about triggers so much as advertising. Generally when I look for fanfic I do it by the warnings. I can skip over pairings I don't like, kinks I don't like. I won't read fluff if I want angst. That's probably good for the author too, actually. If somebody's looking for fluff they probably are not going to appreciate stumbling into a fic about anorexia.

Now, I should say I'm also pretty blase about surprise. Maybe it's because "big surprise" seems like it's so overused in the media nowadays, where things are often a surprise because they literally didn't exist until the ep when they appear and retcon what we've seen before. That's maybe why I actually don't even really understand a lot of complaints about warnings. I understand not wanting to spoil plot points, but most of the things I see warned don't seem like plot points except character death, which I'm not sure always gets warned for anyway.

I don't, btw, think that this confines fanfic writers to particular genres. As I said, I think warnings are more like advertisements. A lot of beginning writers assume their work can't or shouldn't be categorized and they're usuallly wrong. There are stories that do cross lines--I don't think combining genres is really that unusual. But I don't think that necessarily connects to warnings since warnings don't confine an author to a genre, they just say certain things that will happen. Fanfic readers are pretty used to stories veering all over the place from one chapter to another (whether that's good or not) since we read wips, and different chapters can just contain different warnings. I don't know...I guess like I said I just put little value on surprise and have never really felt like it confined authors. Basically, I think it's a system that exists because it's grown organically because it works for readers and writers as a way of finding the fics they want to read/getting their fics to people who want to read them.

Comments

[gramarye1971]

Whenever anyone asks me why I appreciate warnings on fic, I mention my experience with Pan's Labyrinth.

I remember seeing the trailers for the film, and they seemed to promise this fantasy adventure story about a little girl who meets a faun and visits a weird (and somewhat creepy) magical world. So that was what I was expecting to see when I walked into the theatres, not really knowing anything else about the film -- and the moment I heard the actors speaking Spanish and saw several of them in 1940s uniform, my stomach churned because I knew that anything set in Franco's Spain wasn't going to be the kind of fantasy adventure the trailers had suggested. It's a grim, bloody movie, full of violence and disturbing scenes. And though I thought it was well done as a movie, it was exactly what I did NOT want to see that night. Never Trust a Trailer, as TV Tropes says...but I'd still have liked a warning, all the same.

(I suppose I could also add that if an author feels like his or her story can't be enjoyed if the audience knows a surprise!plotpoint already, then there might be something more work to do on the story itself.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Totally agree on both those points. My experience of Pan's Labyrinth was completely different because I read about it in the right context. I'd already seen "The Devil's Backbone" and loved that, and then read articles I think in places like Fangoria. Devil's Backbone was also set in the same time and place and the director was very open about PL being sort of a sister movie. And I'd read specifically about the violence. It's true the movie crosses some genres, but there's not much good in surprising somebody with that kind of violence.

[pauraque]

I suppose I could also add that if an author feels like his or her story can't be enjoyed if the audience knows a surprise!plotpoint already, then there might be something more work to do on the story itself.

So true. "Surprise" stories that are actually good are the ones that foreshadow and lay the groundwork for what's going to happen. They're stories with some mystery, rather than stories that lean on a contrived "surprise" as a crutch.

[tamerterra.livejournal.com]

When I watched it, it was on video, and the chap who owned the video basically said 'it's creepy, there's torture' before it started. And when it was in Spanish, I assumed that was because that was the chap's first language. *facepalm*

[pauraque]

Yeah, totally with you. It is disingenuous to say "warnings don't exist for canon in exactly this form, so warnings aren't needed for fanfic either". The argument was disingenuous the FIRST time I heard it, in X-Files fandom 15 years ago, and it still is now. Professionally produced fiction has all kinds of context around it, especially when we're talking about TV and film! But even so with books.

The distance between author and audience is also highly relevant here. If something on TV triggers me I can't shoot those folks an email and say "hey, you didn't give fair warning for that" and expect to be heard. People in fandom *can* hear me and it's up to them whether they want to listen or blow me off. For that reason, too, it is disingenuous to draw the comparison.

I think there is a bit of a "cult of surprise" that has grown in our culture and certainly in fandom. You won't BELIEVE what happens in the season finale! WHAT A TWIST! The vast majority of stories are not actually "spoiled" when you have some idea of what happens in them (let alone learning the minor details that many people consider spoilers!).

Well, I won't go on too much, we clearly agree. Silly old wank is silly and old.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

And when professional fiction crosses over those warnings in ways that don't work, it pretty much gets clobbered for it.

The vast majority of stories are not actually "spoiled" when you have some idea of what happens in them (let alone learning the minor details that many people consider spoilers!).

Truly if the main draw is the surprise, it's not much of a draw. Even for stories where a twist ending means something. For instance, I've never liked M Night Shamalayan, and the one movie where people tend to think the twist really works of his is the Sixth Sense. But even there I just don't think the big surprise adds anything. As opposed to one of my favorite movies, The Others, which has a similar surprise ending, but in that movie the surprise ending adds to it, both making sense of things that were mysteries before and adding more mystery that makes it more interesting imo.

[pauraque]

I have not seen The Others, but when watching The Sixth Sense I figured out the ending partway through the movie. Perhaps I wouldn't have if I hadn't been previously told there was a surprise, but in any case I did, and wasn't bothered by it. I enjoyed the movie but I don't think I'd have liked it less if the story had been what it pretends to be at the beginning, which is a sign of a problem!

I like some of MNS's movies -- I liked Signs okay, and Unbreakable a lot. But when I like them, I like the realistic, human elements much more than any weird "surprises". As a director he seems to bring out very good performances, but sometimes the script is so weighed down by OMG WHAT A TWIST (arrrgh, The Village) that it's annoying.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That is totally how I feel about 6N. It would work just as well if Bruce Willis was just estranged from his life and they got back on the same page at the end. In fact, it's a lot less emotional for him to learn that he's not estranged from his wife like he thought, he's just invisible. And The Village is ridiculous because it's like everyone does everything to fool the audience. Their behavior makes little sense except as a way to fool us, so what's the point?

[pauraque]

Yeah, it might have been more interesting for it to be figurative... Bruce being emotionally separated from the world is LIKE the separation suffered by the restless spirits the kid sees. And more satisfying, because there's an opportunity for him to change things, unlike those who are already dead?

The Village, omg. When we saw the movie, very_improbable and I agreed it sucked for that reason, and then talked a bit about how from a fanfic writer's perspective (ie, making sense of nonsense), you'd have to conclude that the ~Village Elders~ were acting that way to fool *themselves*, and that perhaps an interesting story could be written about why a group of people would do that. That, however, was not the totally uninteresting story MNS decided to make a film of.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I love trying to imagine them all forcing each other to talk in that stilted language. Which you can maybe imagine for some of them who are nerdy enough to want to do that, but why would ordinary people agree to talk like that for the rest of their lives? Really they all should have seemed like they were stuck in the 1970s, not the 1670s.

[franzeska]

I guessed the twist to The Others long before it was made explicit, but it didn't feel like a spoiler. I think you could figure out what's going on at a number of points in the film without changing its impact.

That said, the movie I really felt was effective was Tesis because it did the tired thriller thing, but I honestly couldn't figure out if the leads were going to survive, which basically never happens with cheesy thrillers. I think I would have been annoyed if someone had told me who gets killed ahead of time. (Of course I've rewatched it like a trillion times, so...)

[anehan]

ITA. I prefer to be spoiled by warnings, as much as warnings can spoil anyway. Things like character death, violence, etc.--I want to know they are happening so that I can choose what to read. I guess this also ties to my not being particularly bothered with spoilers in general. I used to read the ending of books first when I was a child, and I don't think being spoiled detracts from the reading pleasure at all. But maybe that's just me.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I've never had a problem with spoilers, really. I can remember times where I wish I hadn't been spoiled or whatever, but if the story is good on its own it doesn't ruin it for me or anything. For instance, the movie "The Usual Suspects" has a big surprise ending that I had accidentally read somewhere so I went through the movie knowing it, but it didn't ruin the movie at all.

[snapes-witch.livejournal.com]

When I was a child back in the distant past, my folks didn't pay any attention to the time a movie started, and we often came in near the end of the movie. IOW we were totally spoiled, but it never bothered us!!

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

I just read a little bit of context for the warning debate, decided that my first comment here was too naive to be useful, so I'm reposting it after more thought. My gut reaction was that I totally endorse the idea of "warnings" as advertisements or genre labels, but I was sort of uncomfortable with the word "warning" itself because it seems to suggest a dreary world full of minefields, rather than an adventure that sometimes veers into extreme but interesting territory. But people who have posted about "triggering" suggest that, in fact, their experience of reading is full of minefields.

I'm wondering now if there is a way to be respectful of that, to give different readers the information that they need, without normalizing a standard of excessively cautious labelling, which seems a bit inhibiting, reductionist, etc. Not sure where to draw the line -- personally it seems reasonable to me to say, "by the way, there is sexual abuse of minors here, in case you want to just move along" but tedious and pedantic to warn for "character death" -- and not just because of any "surprise" issues: it really seems to narrow and constrain how a reader reads a particular fic if one aspect like that is singled out for labelling. It primes them too much for a particular kind of reading. But that particular example/distinction is probably just about my own mental landscape and others would react differently.

Again, I like your suggestion that "warnings" basically serve the role of advertisements. People certainly are going to be more likely to invest time in reading stories if they have some way of sorting and filtering all the potential links that are out there, so they have some idea of what they want or don't want to read. Ratings, genre labels (which can after all be very complex in fandom, even to the point of suggesting specific story tropes) are all helpful. And the "therapeutic" nature of some fandom writing means there are going to be highly charged works that specifically explore certain kinds of button pushing, so people should be able to decide if that's for them. At the same time, fanfics, except the most popular ones, don't have any real equivalent to the jacket comments or reviews that can steer you to books you might like, so again some kind of labelling is useful. Still, I'd prefer a more neutral term than "warning," and perhaps a less reductionist way of describing the motivations/territory explored by the writer. (But what I'd like most of all is a warning for bad writing!)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It *is* weird that these things are called warnings--and it's true that does seem to refer to triggers. Though with me I realize I probably think it fits because I consider pairings listings as something of a warning. Not in the way that triggering scenes of abuse would be to someone, of course, but like in the way many people sometimes complain about stories about their favorite pairing often including a pairing they don't like.

As ptyx said below, it's up to the author and I'll bet if you looked at a lot of fics we would see a real personal style for warnings depending on the author and depending on the story. Like in the character death example, I think I've only seen it-or at least remember seeing it-in stories that are death stories: Hermione mourns Ron after a long marriage, Harry has thoughts on his deathbed, the WW reacts to Harry's death before killing Voldemort etc. But I've read plenty of stories where important characters die where it isn't warned for because the type of story should already make that clear.

And the "therapeutic" nature of some fandom writing means there are going to be highly charged works that specifically explore certain kinds of button pushing, so people should be able to decide if that's for them.

I'll bet that's a big reason why it got the term "warning" to begin with. As you say, the real danger people would want to avoid is bad writing, and that's not always clear from the warnings! Although sometimes it is--sometimes you can tell a newbie writer from the way she warns for everything and is including every important topic under the sun in her fic. But that's a good point on jacket comments and reviews too--and also the whole area of book design, really. All fanfics look the same. With books you can tell something about them just from looking at the cover.

[ava-jamison.livejournal.com]

As you say, the real danger people would want to avoid is bad writing, and that's not always clear from the warnings!

Okay, that's awesome. Heh.

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

All fanfics look the same.

Heh. This makes me think about the sheer practical difficulty of sorting through fic. I guess in fandom as in RL, to some extent the author is the brand. I think I've always tended to read by mining "everything else" written by the author of a story I really liked, but I've always found it very difficult and frustrating -- and, eventually, too much effort -- to try to wade through what's out there to find a new favorite author. Even reclists are hit-or-miss, especially if they try to be comprehensive.

One possible response in the community is to treat fics as commodities -- here's another PWP, here's another rapefic, here's another fic where H does A, but not B, to D. So that the choice of what to read is as standardized as consuming one particular brand of soup and not another. I think that's pretty dreary, and it's maybe at the back of my hesitation about "warnings" as reductionist.

So I daydream, sometimes, about a fandom where there might develop a tradition of "advertisements" (in the sense that very old books used to be prefaced by an "advertisement" that discussed what the book was about) -- something more substantive than fandom "synopses," which tend toward a teaser style, where you could get a sense of what the author proposed to do (in as spoilery or non-spoilery a way as they chose) as well as a taste of their writing style. Not a practical suggestion, I know, but maybe a mental exercise to describe what's missing!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's funny you mention authors because I think I ultimately start to do the same thing. On one hand it's obvious--there's a lot of dreck in fandom and if you find a good writer you stick with them. But it's also a sensibility, something that often gets me to read stories I might not read by subject. A lot of my favorite authors, in fact, I get/got to via meta. Either because I saw them talking about their take on canon and then read their fic because we were friendly and found that their fic was also satisfying or because I liked their stories and sought out their meta etc. Maybe because I'm so into character interaction and someone's fanfic is probably going to reflect their feelings on it.

But it's just that yes, when I think of writers that I always like what they write I almost have a little advertisement like that in my head because I've read the author's other work. So even if a new work is very different (for instance, "If You've a Ready Mind" vs. "Your Every Wish") I often still find some of the same basic things I like. (Btw, have you read The Demon's Lexicon?)

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

it's also a sensibility, something that often gets me to read stories I might not read by subject

Exactly -- I want to read a story that has an interesting take on people, an intelligent style, that sends me off pleasantly spinning with meta or daydreaming. . .

Just thinking this through in opposition to standard fandom usages . . . pairings, for instance, are a weird category because they really shouldn't necessarily matter, but given the reliance of fandom on so many fixed tropes they are often (but not perfectly) a stand-in for the writer's sensibility in the deeper sense. I mean, H/D had a fun set of issues very specifically associated with it so it attracted writers with certain specific sensibilities, which is what I was after more than H/D per se. At the same time, I can be bored silly as effectively by bad!H/D as bad!anything else. On the other hand, I had a general prejudice aginst Snape/Harry stories because certain uncongenial assumptions seemed necessary to make that even thinkable, but give me snake!Snape or fry-cook!Snape any day and I'm more than happy. So I guess I tended to use pairings as a clue to sensibility in a clue-poor environment. Still, it amuses me (in a complacent, self-regarding way) that my two probably favorite fics end up Draco/Ginny (Trilogy) and Harry/Ginny (Quality of Mercy). Yay for perversity and exploring dark and twisted recesses of the psyche!

I have indeed read (and loved!) Demon's Lexicon -- have you? I was checking back for a while to see if you had commented on SRB's comment thread. I made a comment after reading the first quarter of the book, and owe another now that I'm finished. I won't spoil you here though if you haven't read it yet, except to say it raises some really interesting issues about foreshadowing and surprises (among many, many other virtues).

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I totally have read it! I didn't comment on the thread because I spread it out so I would have it for my commuter book, so I wound up finishing it probably a day or two after most people on the comm. Foreshadowing and surprises FTW!

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

I wanted to spread it out too, as though it were a fandom wip coming out one chapter at a time. :) But I couldn't do it! I held myself back for the first few chapters, but then read the rest all at once.

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

There was a post in this discussion where the poster took 12 book covers and photoshopped off the titles, authors, etc, to illustrate just how much info is given in the cover art. I tried to find it this morning but I couldn't.

BD (oh no, that makes you sound like the Doonesbury character! Nooo!), of course I love "fanfic as commodity" - it doesn't seem to bother a lot of people, but I too find it very dreary. On a more limited scale, though, I don't think I've ever come across chan, e.g., by accident. I'm such a slow reader, I've rarely read things that I haven't read at least something *about* first. Well, I guess I did when I was first reading fic, but I didn't know anyone then - I didn't even know what LJ was. Still, most chan says "chan" on it, doesn't it? Maybe not. Has the genre line of the header been dispensed with?

Anyway, I think it's clear you do need to warn, and it's equally clear you can do it with any one of the numerous codes around that let you hide the warning from anyone who doesn't want to read it.

Er, and what's The Demon's Lexicon?

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

You know, I haven't read Doonesbury since I switched to reading the news on the internet. :( Technology gives and technology takes away. I know you can look it up online, and I really must fix this, as it used to be one of my pole stars. (Can you have multiple pole stars? Is that the definition of being civilized?)

Re: Warnings. Yeah, the more I think about it the more some sort of indicator, whatever you may call it, seems like a no-brainer. In any RL discourse, there's generally some sort of signal that a particular book, or photo, or whatever is going to wander into extreme territory. I recoil a little bit from the general notion that public conversational spaces should be policed to be "safe," or of a general entitlement to be free from offense or upset (which was essentially William F. Buckley's case against the '60s!) But at the level of basic courtesy, well, of course.

If you don't know Demon's Lexicon, you are in for a treat: It's the first published novel by Sarah Rees Brennan, aka Maya aka Mistful aka (now) sarahtales once upon a time from the H/D fandom. ("Underwater Light," and many other marvellous fics, all taken down now, alas.) It is very, very good and since it's gotten some great pre-publication buzz it will hopefully be a rousing success -- it's been out a couple of weeks now in the U.S. and UK. Young Adult supernatural suspense/adventure, with demons. 8X Go seek, find, and buy, by all means!

I am as constant as 42 out of 68 northern stars

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's Maya's novel! Yeah, Maya is one of those weird people from HP whom I only ever knew IRL - she lived in Brooklyn for a year or two and hung out with that whole crowd around Cassie Clare, none of whom I ever see anymore. Anyway, I met her several times, but I never read any of her fic. I'm pleased to hear her novel is good - I remember reading a couple terrific posts she wrote at some point. Very talented.

My dad always still reads Doonesbury. About 8 years ago give or take I used to enter the web via my yahoo home page - the horror! I think now. But I had Doonesbury on it. Not since then. But I'm pretty sure BD went to Iraq and got horribly messed up, PTSD or lost a leg or both - something like that. So between that and the Republicanism, you can't be BD, sorry. (But you can be Boopsie if you like).

[matitablu.livejournal.com]

I understand not wanting to spoil plot points, but most of the things I see warned don't seem like plot points except character death, which I'm not sure always gets warned for anyway.

Exactly. This whole debate left me a bit "bzuh?" because it all boils down to common sense to me. Warnings, or indications for kinks, subgenres, etc. (hey, and the rating, too) contextualize a story before spoiling it. Even "character death" can be rather generic - unless that's the only character you have in the fic I guess ;) - and therefore not really a spoiler. Actually, sometimes I found myself hesitating when listing the characters of a fic because one of them had to make a surprise appearance or something :D I like plot twists (otherwise I wouldn't watch Lost, lol) and I *hate* being spoiled. Actually, I HATE IT WITH THE PASSION OF A THOUSAND BURNING SUNS. But honestly? I've never been spoiled by a warning. And anyway, there's always the whiteout option, "highlight if you want to read", etc. It's not like it takes hours to put the proper ratings or warnings on a fic anyway.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, the character death warning is a great example. I've really only seen it used when it's placing the story in a genre, which to me is just helpful and not a spoiler at all because it's usually clear from the beginning this is a story about death in some way. But in a story where people might die? I don't usually see it warned there.

And also yes, I'd not thought of it in terms of listing the characters but that's true. I always figure that, too, is more about advertising. If it's a story about the trio you list them so that people looking for stories about them will find it, but you don't have to list everybody who makes an appearance.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

This time I see things differently than you. I think this discussion about adding warnings or not is too abstract. Every reader and every author has a different opinion on what such warnings should include. There will never be a consensus.

I am one of those who would never demand a warning, and that would be annoyed if any reader demanded a warning from me. That doesn't mean that I don't add warnings, when I think that they won't spoil the story. I myself avoid spoilers like hell, and I don't like to know much about anything I'm going to read or watch. (Although I agree with you that we always have some hints from the ads.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You know, in talking in the comments I've realized just how much you're saying is true. First because absolutely it's up to the author. There are authors who even refuse to give pairings--which annoys me as a reader so I tend to avoid them until I know the pairing, but it's not something the author *has* to do. But also totally agreed on it being too abstract. As I said in another comment, there are some things that I think get warned for only when they're treated a certain way. Like character death. I don't need that warned for, myself, and I don't think it's necessary, but when I've seen people warn for it it's almost always when the story is about a character dying. Rather than, for instance, a long story with lots of action where characters die along the way. In the first example warning for character death is telling people that this is a specific kind of story--and that can be helpful because people like those kinds of stories and it might be hard to find them. But in the second story it would either be a spoiler or unnecessary. It's like in canon--in HP I knew characters were going to die, and didn't consider that a spoiler. But I did consider myself spoiled when I accidentally read that Sirius died in OotP.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Phew, I'm glad that I agree with you again. I was feeling weird! ;-)

[jewelsong.livejournal.com]

Hey there! Spamming your LJ because I think I have an old email for you!

I'm back across the pond for a few weeks! I'll be in NYC Thursday July 9 - arriving around 1:00pm and staying until about noon the next day when I head down to Baltimore.

So far, I have tentative plans to meet up with a friend in the evening and go see "Romeo and Juliet" at the NYC Ballet. Other than that, I am wide open (and I haven't purchased the ballet tix yet, so joining us is also an option!)

Would love to see you for drinks/chat/something!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Cool--yes! Let me know you're schedule when you're in town and I'm sure we can work out a time for drinks/dinner, whatever. Look forward to seeing you!

[1mpenitent.livejournal.com]

You give me food for thought because I'm a complete beginner when it comes to fan fic - both in terms of reading it (so very little) and especially in terms of writing it.

I don't dismiss what you've said, not at all, but I guess I don't understand it. Perhaps with time, if I become familiar with this genre of writing, it'll make sense to me. I am very, very new to this world.

When I think about it, I guess that I've gone out of my way to avoid stories in any/all fandoms that veer away from canon. If I've enjoyed a book and come to love the characters, then if I'm exploring that world via fan fiction I don't want it to twist from under me. So, yeah, a little label telling me it's spun right off into a different dimension would flag for me that I won't enjoy it.

So I guess I can see that would be a helpful warning.

I'm writing my first story now, up to the fifth chapter of what may turn out novel-length and i didn't kwow what the hell to do with regards to warnings. I mean, I don't know what the hell kind of warnings to give, you know? It's a story. Other than saying it's probably targeted at an adult sensibility, and it sticks to canon, what kind of warnings would I give?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I would say just check around and look at stories by fanfic authors you like and you'll get it. The basic ones are first, giving a genre if you know it. It sounds like you're probably writing genfic (meaning it's not a romance with pairings) which can be helpful to put in the warning--not so much because it's a warning but because it will appeal to people looking for fic that isn't romance. Otherwise my guess is you're probably not writing something that needs a lot of warnings since there's nothing triggering--a lot of the things that get warned about imply veering away from the sort of subjects you'd see in canon. Like rape, cutting, anorexia--special subjects that people might want to avoid. And also a lot of warnings have to do with porn, and if you're not veering into that territory you can avoid a lot of those!

Some people warn for character death, but I've read plenty of stories that don't. It really depends on the story. If it's a story about a character death it's usually warned, but if someone's writing a long HP epic where there's a battle or lots of spying and killing going on I don't think they usually warn for it. That's very in keeping with the canon as well.

[genarti]

I've seen some authors who phrase it as "contains" or the like rather than "warning for." I like this better, really. It still gives you a space to warn for things readers might want to avoid, but it lets you do so without implying ALL THIS IS BAD AND TRIGGERY for things like unpopular pairings or slash or not-entirely-mainstream sexuality.

Another idea I've been seeing in the recent debates, which I quite like, is the notion of putting warnings in the sort of highlight-to-read text that some people use for discussing canon spoilers. That way, the warnings are there for anyone who wants to be warned, but the highly warning-aversive can avoid them. (I'm another who doesn't entirely get that -- I nearly always prefer to be spoiled, so I can look for foreshadowing instead of trying to ignore that awful creeping "Something bad's going to come of this but I don't know when or what" feeling, which I hate -- but if it's easy to let people avoid according to preference, awesome! There are enough people with serious triggers out there, and just plain serious preferences, that I will always warn for anything I think needs it, and edit in one for anything anyone suggests I really ought to have warned them for.)

Incidentally, I'd say I almost never seen pairings listed as "warning." Plenty list them, but it's usually on its own line. Title, fandom, pairings, summary, warnings. This just may be a function of my friendslist differing from yours or something, though.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Actually, now I think about it I always see pairings on its own line. I think I just pictured it wrong in my head talking about the subject. What I do often see in warnings is stuff like h/c or fluff.

[tamerterra.livejournal.com]

" I nearly always prefer to be spoiled, so I can look for foreshadowing instead of trying to ignore that awful creeping "Something bad's going to come of this but I don't know when or what" feeling, which I hate"

Same.

[ava-jamison.livejournal.com]

Have you seen El Orfanato? I loved it SO much. I loved Devil's Backbone very much--and Pan's Labyrinth, but less than the other two.

I highly recommend it if you haven't seen it yet and liked Devil's Backbone.

Slightly-to-a-lot off topic, but this post made me think a lot about reveals and how they work. It made me specifically think of those three movies and 'The Other' and 'Turn of the Screw'. Also some quotes Raymond Chandler said about mysteries and what they should and shouldn't do and how the reveal should work.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I have totally not see this movie--I'll have to put it on my netflix queue because I love Devil's Backbone.

Now I totally want to hear you talk about reveals--I love The Other and The Turn of the Screw (and for movie versions "The Innocents" is one of my favorite movies).

[ava-jamison.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I'll see if I can organize my thoughts on reveals. Might not be interesting, though ;)

Yes! On "The Innocents"!

I absolutely ADORED El Orfanato. I'd love to hear what you think after you see it. I saw it on the big screen on opening day and I'm still fascinated by it.

[uminohikari.livejournal.com]

Well, I think the origin of the warning debate was over triggers, which is why that's currently the focus? Because some authors refused to warn for rape, and then people whose triggers included rape were angry..

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, I had a feeling that was the start of it but I read things that branched out--probably because the arguments against warning I assume get more into spoilers and literary things if that makes sense.

[kerosinkanister.livejournal.com]

Warning: this comment contains nothing to do with warnings.

I saw this the other day and thought of you: http://wiw.org/~jess/archives/2005/01/12/trapped-in-a-cave/

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

When I saw the title I gasped in delicious anticipation. When I read the rest I gasped again, this time with laughter. Thank you for both those gasps!

[night-axe.livejournal.com]

The "profic has no warnings" argument is ridiculous. Reading a fic isn't at all the same thing as picking up a random novel. Most of the time people read fic for sources they're familiar with, so it's more like reading a new book by an author they already know what to expect from. Of course they'll want to know what kind of fic it is, and for that, as you say, warnings are extremely convenient. (Though I'm a little puzzled why authors on LJ rarely use genre labels like "horror" or "action" which are even more convenient for classifying, IMO. It's one of FFN's good points.)

I'm torn on warning for character death, though. I can think of a few stories where the death was enough of a plot twist that warning would have ruined the fic. Or there's that lovely H/D fic where it's left open if they live or die at the end. Very mildly shocking, but still a shock in the sense that most readers would probably expect a happy ending when there's no warnings.

On yet a third hand, if the anti-warners are concerned about the element of surprise, I'd like to point out that the most predictable element of any given fic is almost always the pairing. Labeling a fic A/B is a giant spoiler that A and B will fall in love, have sex and live happily ever after, because most pairing fic is written by shippers. Generally when I figure out ahead of time how a fic will end it's not because of spoilery warnings for noncon/incest/whatever, it's because I've recognized its particular wish fulfillment structure.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I feel like "character death" means very different things in different types of fic--which isn't any different from profic. It's one thing to have an adventure or war fic or any big epic and warn for deaths--that would either be wrong (spoiler) or sort of duh (because what war fic doesn't have people dying).

That's an excellent point, though, about pairings. Especially given at least one person who was arguing anti-warnings apparently had earlier complained that people should warn for a certain side pairing they didn't like!