OotP--very long, lots o'spoilers

[sistermagpie]

Okay, I've been flipping around and I feel like I had a very different reaction to this book than everyone else so I ought to get down my immediate thoughts. I should start out by saying that in general I didn't like this book so much so be warned and feel free to skip reading the bad stuff. I'm going to put the good stuff (imo) and the bad stuff under separate cuts. The good stuff, I admit, it mostly personal for me. There are things I'm interested in and I liked that I saw hope for them (no, I'm not talking ships here at all). There's more good stuff in the book, I just zoomed in on my personal preferences and my prefences weren't really for the main stuff dealt with in the book. Maybe the biggest thing to say straight out so you can stop here if you think I'm nuts? I thought this book was very pro-Slytherin. Yes. Not as a theme in this book, but as a foundation for the future. If you can handle that, feel free to click.



Like I said, I'm interested in Slytherin House. Not because I am a Slytherin type myself. It's more because...well, one of the things that's always disturbed me about this series was, imo, a lack of compassion. Oh, there's plenty of compassion for the good characters and non-humans, but as I've said before, it's easier to ease up on them. What I've yet to see is an acknowledgement that Slytherins are just students like everyone else, certainly not evil, and possibly valuable. These are the people it is hard to understand, so these are the people we should try to understand.

When I read that new Sorting Hat song, my heart leapt with joy. Finally an acknowledgement that house rivalry is ultimately pointless. The hat didn't just promote unity it specifically talked about the four founders being friends and that the school had never been whole since Slytherin left. This theme was not one that was fully realized and played out in the book but honestly I felt like this was what was being set up as the ultimate ending. Because ultimately, this book is about Hogwarts and not the wider universe (in fact the more we stay away from that the better for my taste). All the grande heroics in the world will not help the school stand when you've got 1/4 of the students standing against the others. And that is what happened here--I thought it was very significant that the hat's warnings about house unity were immediately dismissed as not including the Slytherins even while certain students formed an elite group amongst the other three houses. (Of course it was understandable why the Slytherins weren't invited but that's not the point.)

Harry himself was at his most Slytherinish in this book. In that first scene he's taunting Dudley--now that Harry's got power he's glad to have Dudley as a convenient vent for his anger. And Gryffindors sure are angry, aren't they? Ka-pow! While I've always been interested in Slytherin, I've never particularly liked them before. In this book I found them incredibly refreshing in the early parts. They were a welcome relief from the constant grimness and seriousness of the other students. It was nice seeing them laugh and crack silly jokes about beasts following instructions provided they could understand what you were saying. I'm not a sports fan, but Draco's song about King Weasel didn't sound much worse than what I've heard at most sporting events--a really stupid psych out that worked well. I wouldn't sing it to anyone but it seemed like a dumb thing kids would do. When Draco lost he then managed to "win" by causing the Gryffindors to get violent by essentially saying, "Ron sucked, and your mothers are ugly and stink." Honestly, if you fly into a rage and attack him at that you need to chill. I also loved Draco looking shocked at Neville's reaction to his loony bin comment--once again Child!Draco cracks a joke that stabs a Gryffindor's honor and almost gets pummelled. It rather made me long for Nocturne_Alley where the players have found believeable ways for the Slytherins to help some of the Gryffindors lighten up. As Snape says, they just hand people weapons to make them lose control.

In general--and I know this will sound odd--I thought this book was the most pro-Slytherin yet despite obviously being the most anti-Slytherin on the surface, mostly through comments dropped by characters and dismissed by Harry. Things like this:

*Phineas saying that his house is brave, they just will always choose to save their own skins. Phineas being loyal to Dumbledore, just complaining about it more. Phineas ultimately caring about the last of his line despite the fact that it was Sirius.

*Harry's talk with Nick about getting along with the Bloody Baron.

*Snape's warnings to Harry that his hot-headedness is what makes him a great target for Voldemort. I know a lot of people were probably disgusted by the kids who joined with Umbridge but I thought a middle ground between Gryffindor and Slytherin was the best way to go with this woman--Snape being the best example. Harry played right into her hands every time while the more slimey Slytherins, who clearly had no more loyalty to her than they had to Hagrid on a good day, siezed their chance to make her work for them. Not that it got them very far. They ultimately appeared to just be able to get themselves some house points for a contest that wasn't even really going on anymore (though I loved Draco's point-taking moment--potterstinks lives!) In return they appear to end up in the infirmary over and over. Those Slytherins--forever bringing a knife to a gun fight. Not that Draco in particular was in it much, but then I've always thought of him as sort of Harry's shadow and since Harry took on a lot of his characteristics at times Draco just wasn't needed.

*The fact that the Slytherins and Gryffindors both screwed themselves in Quidditch with their stupid fighting. First Harry and the Weasleys attack Draco giving Frau Umbridge a convenient excuse to band them for life (or the book--whatever). Then Montegue (that's his name, right?) tries to take points from the twins and ends up in the infimary for weeks. ("Good," says Harry and Ron.) Similarly Harry inadvertantly kills Sirius by not going to Snape for help even though he's in the Order. Snape himself refuses to continue Harry's lessons.

*The Snape/James stuff. Yes, I see the implications for Snape/Harry slash with the with the private lessons and then visions of Abused!Snape and Harry feeling sorry for him. But I honestly didn't think Harry getting closer to Snape would help him that much as a person. Snape is Harry's teacher. Hope needs to come from this generation. Whatever Snape's feelings are about Harry they are only due to his true hatred of James. Dumbledore has said flat out that Harry and Draco remind him of James and Severus. (Hermione appears to be Remus at times.) True, they've never had any scenes like the one in Snape's memory. The closest they've come is Draco leg-locking Neville first year (hardly on the same level of public humiliation and cruelty and plus he was 11) and Draco's ferret incident (equally publically humiliating but Harry didn't do it). Harry is horrified by his father in the past but I assumed they had more in common than he thought. Given the Harry we saw in this book from the inside I could absolutely see an outsider finding him arrogant--not in the way James was, but in his own way. I wouldn't be surprised if Harry through Draco's eyes was closer to James than Harry would expect. Anyway James seems like a bigger jerk than either of them but his friends both explain that one can grow out of being a jerk. Sirius and Remus both explain that James didn't just go around picking on Snape; they hated each other from the first moment they met; Snape was always trying to hex him; they were a special case of hatred; James was everything Snape wanted to be because everything came easy to him and he was good at Quidditch. Harry sees Snape as being unpopular in the memory but he is without his Slytherin friends there. Harry would appear unpopular in a crowd of Slytherins and Draco in a crowd of anyone but Slytherins. And what is Harry's response to this memory? He's horrified at the idea his father would do that. He'd never do that to anyone. Except maybe Malfoy or someone who really deserved it. Hello? Miss the point much, Harry? Of course he does, because I thought a lot of this book was about the students missing the point. The Sorting Hat gave a warning and everybody totally ignored it, fighting each other.

*Also there was the whole issue of family. Hagrid says family is important even if it's not good family. I thought this was really important. Sirius was so sad in this story, I thought, partly because he'd denied his own family. Obviously there are plenty of good reasons to leave one's family and their being frightening Nazis is one of them. I'm not saying he wasn't right to reject their ideas. But still I could completely understand Kreacher's distress over his essentially wanting to erase them, particularly after seeing that family tree. We hear about Purebloods like they're this big evil force but in fact they appear to be, like one not-so-large family. It's just the only people who acknowledge it as family are the bad guys like Kreacher who runs to Narcissa. I could be totally wrong in what I got from this, but I felt like this was also a warning to not dismiss people's ties to their family even if you find their family abhorrant. Weren't these the feelings that Sirius mostly dismissed to his own peril in Kreacher? The Gryffindors characters tend to be very judgemental and never more so than in this book. Hermione's vicious about Pansy as early on as the train and is later pleased to hear she's in the infirmary...why, exactly? Sirius wants to get rid of everything that reminds him of his family yet his mother's stuck things to the wall permanently. I found the story of his brother quite sad (and wondered if this was a forshadowing of other students' ends) but couldn't tell if he was bitter because he had liked his brother at one time or just rejected them all. Then there was the whole Percy thing which isn't quite resolved. And Hagrid dragging his brother to Hogwarts (shades of Hermione trying to force the House Elves into freedom?). To top it off for the first time ever in canon that I remember, Draco refers to his father as "Dad" (Dad??!!) right before Harry refers to him as scum.

*Then there was the ending. Not the whole fight thing etc. (more on that below) but the way the WW is poised right now. You've got newspaper articles on how to bring in Dark Wizards and people seeing Voldemort in their neighborhood. On the surface this sounds good with everyone ready to fight but frankly, it reminds me more of people gearing up for some paranoia as well. It's like in the 50's when people tried to learn how to spot Communists. I feel like everything is set up now for some true Slytherin alienation and possibly bashing. Already we had members of that house being physically attacked throughout the story: Pansy, Montague, Draco, Crabbe and Goyle, presumably Millicent though we don't know how they subdued her. On the train the Slytherins do for the first time try something they've never done before by ambushing Harry three to one, though we don't know exactly what that entailed other than it was seen and the Slytherins were quickly outnumbered and hexed beyond human recongition. Hexing the Slytherins has apparently replaced the Leaving Feast as the end-of-the-year tradition. And why not as it apparently has no reprecussions whatsoever for anyone involved! All of these physical attacks are always met with the same response from the main characters: Good. When someone once complains about it--Cho--Harry gets angry. Now, Marietta was obviously a danger to the DA (btw, good idea writing down a list with that name on it, guys) but I still thought it was perhaps a bad idea to not acknowledge any possible reasons she might have for being against DA. Not because I thought Marietta was anything but a jerk but because it takes all people to stand against this thing. Cho says Marietta's family works for the ministry. Again, it's that family tie. (Harry's protest about Ron's father doesn't really work--we know Mr. W. would approve of what they're doing.) It's not that I didn't think Marietta was wrong, just that I think the Gryffindors cut themselves off by dividing the world into, as Sirius I think says, trying to divide the world between good guys and Death Eaters.

*Last of all--and I hesitate to say that anything of this, especially this last bit-should be taken as accurate because I honestly don't know if JKR and I are on the same page at all here--we've got Lucius in jail. I have no idea if this will mean anything but for the first time Draco is without his father. I can only hope this means Snape will take more of a role in his life, particularly since Sirius casually referred to Snape as Lucius' lap dog and Umbridge said Lucius had only good things to say about him. We also learn that Lucius is 41 so presumably he was at school with the Marauders and he and Snape were friends? This would be great, although I have a sinking feeling the book will just start with us being told Lucius got out of jail so we can hit the reset button. It seems natural that Snape should have his own protege instead of only concentrating on Harry. But then, pretty much everybody concentrates on Harry.

*Also, couldn't help but wonder about Draco's being prefect since Dumbledore apparently chooses them. Did he see something there? Not that the prefect thing went anywhere for anyone, but we certainly don't hear about Draco's being so dreadful at it besides Hermione early on saying he was being beastly to first years (or "midgets" as Ron would say!) . Have really nothing to say about that, just making a point that this could be a set up for later school intrigues if we get back to that. There was really nothing to say about him in this book per se expect that Jr. Deatheaters are just as incompetent as their parents, but then the Slytherins also now seem to be a year behind the other students in DADA.

Like I said it's not that I thought this was the theme of this book. I thought it was more a foundation being laid for future books. Because honestly I think the true ending of the books should be healing the rift within Hogwarts and not defeating Voldemort who simply takes advantage of that rift. To do it honestly, imo, there has to be some kind of truce or new understanding between the Gryffs and the Slytherins we know--the worst of them--Pansy (who often took over for Draco with the meaner comments) and Draco. I mean really, who else is there in the series right now? I can't imagine we're going to be seeing the nicer side of Lucius, Snape's already started to become more human. It seems to me the real unknown factor within Hogwarts are those students themselves. JKR could be planning to do it solely through Snape but really, I think that's a cop-out. Harry can never look at Snape and say, "He is me." He needs to do that with another students. Harry doesn't need to reconcile with the man his father hated upon first sight, he needs to reconcile with the boy he hated on first sight. (Oh and note his memories of Dudley with the tricycle? Jealous jealous jealous. Yes, I continue to maintain this was his first reason for hating Draco absolutely).

I'm not at all confident that I'm reading this the right way. This book, more than ever, I had a hard time imagining that Draco even existed when he wasn't in a scene with Harry. I got no sense that he was a student with his own life at all. But then, as I said, I felt that about a lot of the characters. But I just felt like I was consistently seeing the Slytherins being more and more of an enemy while at the same time getting all these tiny hints about that being the wrong way to see them, perhaps forshadowing of future stories.







Here lies bad stuff, imo.

For a book that was 870 pages, it felt really rushed. I felt like I was just being moved from point to point to get to the ending, one which was ultimately very unsatisfying, imo. My biggest problem with JKR's writing in the past has always been that characterization often seemed to really be plot points. A character reacted to something a certain way not always because it was logical or made emotional sense to them but because it was necessary for the plot. I was totally disappointed by the throwaway line about fighting a troll making three people friends, for instance. Much more disappointed by the quick way Ron and Harry's problems in GoF were tossed out the window for good with a meaningful look. I felt this much moreso in this book. In the past I've always been frustrated at how Draco, in particular, seemed a plot device rather than a character, but this time I honestly felt like almost everyone was a plot device rather than a character. Ginny conveniently gave up on her crush on Harry to become a new, spunkier Ginny Sue. Now, there was nothing in this Ginny that I found particularly unbelieveable, exactly, I just thought she was there because this type of character was now more convenient. Neville, too, didn't exactly contradict his old personality (he threw himself into a fight way back in PS after all), but I did rather resist this slightly new Neville because again, he seemed necessary for plot purposes. Particularly the ultimate prophesy revelation. I realize that we're seeing things through Harry's pov and perhaps that explains it but I'm kind of tired of putting everything down to that. It's like Harry got a memo telling him to notice Neville to the exclusion of other boys in his dorm this year.

Meanwhile other character things were picked up and drifted away. How long were Harry and Seamus fighting exactly? Months? Yet this barely registers on the radar because this book just wasn't a school story the way the other ones were. Many would say this is a good thing, as with the return of the Dark Lord why should school be important? It should be important because this is the world of the books--Hogwarts, not the wider world. Plus I think it's what JKR does much much better. Anyway, so Seamus and Harry have a fight (on Harry's side because Seamus doesn't seem to believe him totally, on Seamus' side because Harry insulted his mother.. We get a sign of Seamus perhaps wanting to make up . Then the Quibbler article comes out and Seamus shows up at a DA meeting. Um, I guess it's good Seamus came around but this fight hasn't been developed enough on either side to really feel much about it. Ron and Hermione become prefects, leading to one angsty moment where Harry worries that he's just as arrogant as Malfoy (800 pages later I would have to say Harry has in fact surpassed Malfoy in that particular department, since Draco's barely around and Harry's just learned he is indeed the savior of the WW), then gets over it. We hear Draco and Pansy are prefects too, which seems to set up some trouble. But then it turns out no one's being Prefect has no effect whatsoever on the plot.

Quidditch, of course, has also always been plot-driven. Turns out it's not so much being Harry that makes you the best Seeker as being a Gryffindor. Ginny steps in and beats everybody as well (with Cho handling her loss even worse than Draco does). The girl's got spunk.

Early on Sirius' death was looking to be mighty emotional. I loved the early hints of him wanting Harry to be James (who I always said sounded like he could be a real jerk--gives self a gold star for pegging James!), of falling into a depression, of becoming desperate and possibly about to do something reckless. But then it turned out that really went nowhere. It was more like well, there could be something really interesting going on with this character but we didn't see it. This ultimately made his death not that emotional for me. I thought his possible early life story was much more effecting.

Meanwhile everything in the book was really going towards this big ending and the prophesy which was a real groaner, imo. Um, so Harry's the only person who can kill Voldemort? Hasn't that been pretty obvious from, like, day one? (A friend insisted that this was made clear in the first book, and she only read 1 & 2.) Surely Harry's had an inkling this was true before? And no, I didn't buy Dumbledore's little heart to heart at the end. He didn't tell Harry because he loved him too much and wanted him to be happy? But placing him in the abusive household was not an issue (though Dumbledore sure rationalizes that one--Harry just showed up a little too underfed than he'd have liked)? It just seemed like a lot of spinning on Dumbledore's part. This whole book rather turns on not telling Harry this obvious piece of information that he should have for no good reason whatsoever. Even if they didn't tell him what was in the prophesy they could have warned him about the sort of things to look out for. And the great power Harry has is...love? (Me reading up to that part: Pleasedon'tsaylovePleasedon'tsaylovePleasedon'tsaylove.) Even as a kid I hated A Wrinkle in Time and wanted to drop kick Charles Wallace. I can't believe I'm having to hear this again! Arrrgh! That's ultimately kind of sad, isn't it, for all the bad guys? No wonder they are all so bitter about Harry.

Then, speaking of the characters as plot devices problem, let's talk about the Death Eaters. You know, there's really only so long we can hear about how they're so dangerous and know all this dark magic before they have to put up or shut up and in this book they definitely shut up. Or rather, they didn't shut up. Instead of being effective they turned into the type of Villain who chats with the victim and tells him all his plans, thus giving him plenty of time to escape. I half expected them to just tie the kids to an unecessarily slow lowering device over a shark tank and consider them dead. Instead we get a fight that seems to imply that no, it really doesn't get any more effective than Stupify and Silencio and Expelliarimus. Ironically when Sirius and the others shows up we're suddenly told about fast-paced duels with curses flying...erm, why weren't the DEs fighting like that with the kids? Did they forget there for a second they weren't fifth years themselves? They got beat by a bunch of kids. They are not scary. In fact, they appear to be a bunch of crazy idiots most of the time with Lucius at least occasionally able to come off well ("Patronus Potter"). Draco made me laugh a few times just by being a regular kid amongst all the other stuff, but considering the DA can dispatch a herd of DEs it's no wonder a bunch of Slytherins who really couldn't care less about Umbridge got zapped by them.

I don't know if JKRs gotten to the point where she's not edited but I really felt like she should have dropped some of the ideas here. She's already got a cast of thousands is it that necessary to add half a dozen more each book to pop in and out? I was particularly uninterested in Luna who just seemed to take Neville's place as the person Harry is friends with but doesn't really see them as a full person, only to feel sorry for them when he realizes they carry some great pain. I didn't dislike her at all, I just could easily have done without her. I guess it's good that Harry always gets the tiniest message there there is a world going on outside of himself but I didn't feel like I knew her any better at the end than at the beginning, though I don't particularly hope I'm going to get her story in the next book.

I really missed the school in this book. Just the sense of a year at school. When Harry was having his career talk I had a real wish to find out what my other favorite students discussed: Ron I had an idea but Hermione? Dean? Seamus? Draco? No clue. In fact, I didn't feel like any of them had their career discussions at all (not that the Slytherins' ever would have been seen, of course). It was just there so Harry and Minerva could argue with Umbridge. I never felt like I was sitting down at a meal with the students at a school. I just don't think JKR does the epic fantasy as well as she does that. I was having this discussion with somebody recently and I decided that one thing I think Tolkien does better is that he's clearly created his world as a history from the ground up. It's completely self-sufficient. The dwarves and the elves have a detailed history that explains the subtleties of their tension etc. In HP, though, I often feel like things depend on your recognizing something from our own world and just going with that even though you don't really understand how much of a parallel it is, if that makes sense. Like in this book you've got Umbridge calling her group of students an Inquisitor Squad when they're not really being Inquisitors at all. In fact, as I said up top, I think the world is much more poised for an Inquisition now than it was in this book. She was doing bad things, sure, but I wasn't reminded of the Inquisition in the least. Or the Quibbler--I never really got it so much that I got it was supposed to be a tabloid I just feel like, okay, there's a political message here but I don't feel as interested in how it's played out in this society as I am in real societies because I don't feel like there's a real history here. People seem to represent bad ideas or types rather than truly be a certain type.

Comments

yes

[anamirza.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to see you posted this - I'm just now starting to go through my friends list and read reactions, so I'm not sure what the standard reaction, that you say you don't have, is.

But on what you have written: I think you are spot on with the observation of the portrayal of Slytherin and with the observation that the kids almost universally miss the point (Hermione might be the exception among the Gryffindors.) It is so frustrating to see Harry come so close to having some understanding of Snape - his feelings as he sees the memories make you think he is close to 'getting it', but then he doesn't. And we also see the other 3 houses able to overcome past differences and in some sense 'unite', but Slytherin is still outside this. Which, as you point out, the Sorting Hat clearly warns is a not a good idea.

As for the inclusion of the school year - I think that was sometimes handled well, and sometimes not. The beginning of the school year and the exams I felt were more 'at Hogwarts'. I particularly liked the way the part with the exams was written and worked into the larger plot. What I think made the rest of it so un-Hogwartsy is that Harry doesn't seem to feel himself really there, IMO. He's concerned about the Order, and living in his dreams. He doesn't care about classes other than getting through them so he can do his other obligations. We also lose Draco in the same way. This was one of the things that always bothered me about the Draco Trilogy - was that the students never seemed to be in school. Eventually I just accepted it and moved on to enjoy that fic as it is.

I think her plot is becoming too complex to keep it all in one year. She seems to be torn between her overarching plot and her episodic presentation of the plot (each year at school) for the last two books. At some point, when you have an overarching plot, and yet an episodic approach, people start to ask, "why didn't we hear about this (eg, other wizarding schools) before?" JKR seems to approach the difficulty of fitting everything in by only focussing on a few characters. So, for example, we know that Professor Sinistra must exist, but we never see her teaching astronomy class to the 5th year Gryffindors. And we never see her out of class either, really - she's just not described.

Anyway, not sure these comments are clear, but I just wanted to say that you and JKR may not be on the same page, but I think you and I probably are. :)

Re: yes

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

The more I go around my friends list the more I see that my reaction really isn't that off, I'm happy to say.

I thought about whether Hermione understood the hat's warning while others didn't...I think her role here is a lot like Lupin's. He was supposedly the smart one, yet still sat back and let his friends have their fun. There were times in this book when I thought Hermione was entirely too wise, but I think it makes sense that she not see the seriousness of cutting the Slytherins out so much. She surprised me with her extreme dislike of Pansy, for instance.

Thanks for your comments though--you're right, I think we are on the same page!

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Magpie, you always say what I'm thinking, but you express it much more articulately than I can.
I agree with everything

Especially the parts re:
the Gryfs being judgemental (could I possibly be as arrogant as Malfoy? Surely not?! No, Harry, you rather eclipsed him again, this time for Biggest Jerk),
Dad (wtf? Draco refers to My Father as Dad? Spunky Ginny and Neville? Invisible Draco, Ron and Lupin? I tell you, if anyone had wrote this as fic, their beta reader would have sent back approx 800 pages of red ink saying 'CHARACTERIZATION' all over),
hexing (I was very uncomfortable with the casualness of that in GoF, but in OotP, the reference is breathtakingly nonchalant - Harry boredly watched as Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle were basically paralyzed and helpless and not even human),
prefects (If EverSoWise Dumbledore picks our boy, there must be a reason),
the House rift (right on! I've always thought that was the more threatening, over Voldemort, who, powers or no, is one man, and a man who practically carries a sign saying 'evil'; even the most valued people - Dumbledore, Harry, Hagrid, etc. encourage the Slyth bias, and like Sirius and Kreacher, they will have only themselves to blame when it inevitably backfires in their faces),
jealousy (A theory of mine has always been that Harry tends to be more receptive to people once he feels like he's on equal footing or superior to them. He immediately feels inferior to Draco, not knowing as much as he does about wizarding; so he resents him. Ron is embarrassed by his poverty in front of Harry almost instantly, and Harry is cheered (that someone else has suffered like him almost? He doesn't want to be a victim, but if he is, he won't be the only one)
Hermione only becomes friends with the boys when she has been victimised; in this case by showing she has been emotionally damaged by Ron's teasing, and in physical danger by the troll. And I wrote most of this a month ago - check out little Ms. Psychic
"And mark my words that Neville will become more important as the series progresses, and he's one of the biggest victims in the school."
If Harry and Draco's first meeting had been more like, say, the Borgin and Burkes scene on the DVD, I think they would have had much more of a chance at a friendship = too much pride on both sides at the moment.)
sore loser (How come my poor Draccy gets accused of being a sore loser? He didn't throw his broom down and cry like some (or did he? I have to admit I'd laugh at that ;)
I was suprised when Harry was empathizing with Snape over being laughed at 'by a circle of onlookers', since I can remember far more incidents of that happening to Draco than Harry, and like James, he makes special cases of those he deems hex-worthy, morality aside since 'they deserve it'.
Harry has been embarrased over his Valentine and the Slytherins occasionally taunt him, but canonically he DOESN'T CARE. There's no feeling hurt or bullied or even angry (when he attacks, it's usually down to pressure from other influences, with Draco as his scapegoat) as Snape obviously did. He is always defended, by intelligent and loyal friends, and his entire House plus Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw often rally behind him if forced to choose between his side and a Slytherin's.
Malfoy has been mocked far more often, is often more humiliated by this than Harry, almost certainly sees Harry as Snape saw James - the 'big man' 'strutting around' because of his popularity and Quidditch skills, and there is frankly some basis for that - I laughed out loud when Harry wondered if he could possibly be as arrogant as Draco Malfoy, when he's always struck me as far more confident - like Snape, Draco's actions in the past books if not OotP so strongly, indicate a certain amount of self loathing.

The song didn't bother me, since 3/4 of the school at one time or another chant 'Go go Gryffindor' (ugh, they even did it in the film), and since the commentator is also a Gryffindor, I feel it balances out. Besides, thats sports. If you get psyched out by audiences, maybe you shouldn't be on the team.

And I think I have spammed you enough for one night.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! You made me laugh with the "Could I possibly be as arrogant as Malfoy? Surely not!" Oh Harry Harry. Surely you are. I'm also glad I'm not the only person who had to stop and wonder just when Harry had been humiliated like Snape had. He knows what it means to be embarassed, certainly but humiliated that publically and cruelly? You'd have to go to Draco to find out about that. Harry has been ostracized but not laughed at. No matter what happens he is still The Boy Who Lived.

I totally agree on Harry liking to feel level or equal to a person in order to feel comfortable. Even after beating Draco again and again he can still be made uncomfortable around him. I think part of it comes from Draco's talent for impressions. His jokes don't always hit the mark but in general he does base them on some truth that can be painful. Harry (and the Gryffs in general except maybe Hermione who is kind of 40-years-old sometimes) tends to take himself seriously and really hates to see himself or his friends mocked at all.

Draco's song didn't bother me either. It's not personally cruel, just the usual "You can't catch a ball!" I laughed at the idea of Pansy leading them all in singing it.

I totally agree Draco seems the much less confident of the two. We might know that Harry is nervous but I suspect Draco sees Harry totally throwing his weight around and accepting all the adulation the way James appears to be doing with Peter.

[anamirza.livejournal.com]

Harry has been ostracized but not laughed at

... in the wizarding world. My impression is that he's been in the position of young Snape, only it was in the Muggle world.

And I don't think Harry has been as arrogant as Draco, in the same way as Draco. Harry's been arrogant in the way that Hermione points out - he's sure he's right, and won't consider that someone is using him, and that he may be wrong. But Draco is arrogant in the I-am-better-than-you way to Gryffindors and others, to their face, rather than Harry's simple refusal to listen. Not that the refusal to listen is a good trait, as we saw, but it's a different sort of arrogance than Malfoy's.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

This is true, though I see a bit more arrogance in Harry than you do, I think, and you're right about his position in the Muggle world--good point. He doesn't have Draco's superiority issues of blood, definitely. But I feel much more now that Harry does quickly sort people into a hierarchy of who is superior to who and it shows. We don't see it show because we are in Harry's head but I get the feeling everyone around him knows exactly where they rate on his scale. And of course anyone who isn't completely on the same page as he is about the situation in the WW is immediately the enemy.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Completely.
And even people who agree with him and have shown him nothing but loyalty don't get much back.
He's embarrassed to be seen with Luna and Neville in front of Cho. Neville, who fought for him and Ron in PS, despite all Harry's trying to avoid being partnered with him. Harry may have told him he's worth twelve of Malfoy, but all his behaviour since indicates the opposite.
He thinks Marietta's scum who deserves what she got (which was a rather low trick, IMO - Hermione is another who is supremely confident in her superiority, and will do anything to protect herself ((and her friends, to be fair)) including kidnapping someone, ruining their career, assaulting people, using hexes and curses against unarmed and non aggressive foes); he's unwilling to listen to Cho's point of view - Harry is Right, Opposers are Wrong.
Harry thinks of himself as better than his family, better than at least 1/4 of the school (and I have no doubt all the Gryffindors secretly think of themselves as the cream of the crop), better than his friends, better than his enemies, better than his mentors...Was there anyone in this book he actually admired or felt he could learn from?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Harry thinks of himself as better than his family, better than at least 1/4 of the school (and I have no doubt all the Gryffindors secretly think of themselves as the cream of the crop), better than his friends, better than his enemies, better than his mentors...Was there anyone in this book he actually admired or felt he could learn from?

Yes! To everything, really. It's not that I didn't like Harry in this book because I did, but I also thought he was really really dangerous and had the potential for the first time to be a villain. No matter how he may feel about being TBWL people do follow him like an icon no matter what he does. People have said this book was about Harry becoming a leader and that he was very good at it (which surprised me, that he took to that role, because I always thought of him as more of a loner). He was good at it in that he assumed the position easily, naturally thinking his plan was best etc. But to me he seemed to also show a lot of bad qualities in a leader, being unable to really listen to different povs, making everything into us vs. them etc. Harry was all about his own agenda here. He still doesn't seem to really get that other students have their own lives and problems.

When I think about DA I realize it never felt to me like a fun thing the kids were doing to get around Umbridge's stupid plan so much as...well, something I could very well imagine Tom Riddle doing. The main things I remember about it is Hermione's clever little twist on the DEs marks with the coins, which she is quick to defend by saying, "Well, I'm not putting the mark on someone's body!" Then a bit later we find out the coins *do* put marks on a person's body if they tell. I can understand the necessity of having some kind of alarm system like that but there's something very creepy about being marked like that, you know? I got the feeling that Marietta and Cho at least saw the club as just that, a club. It was kept secret from teachers to keep from getting in trouble. They didn't realize that to other students it was far more serious--like a cult or the Freemasons or something.

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[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I hated the DA, and Harry teaching. I don't know why, it was just an instinctive reaction. Maybe because I think Harry should fight alone, maybe because I'm uncomfortable with him being adulated for more than Quidditch and being TBWL, and the Triwizard Champion, and having Occlumency lessons and a psychic link with Voldemort and mysterious never mentioned prophecies.
It's too much.
The kids didn't seem to learn much defence, apart from Patronuses. They seemed to be hexing - ie, secretly learning the Dark Arts. And not hesitating to use it on other students.
If a Slytherin had been caught doing that, there's no doubt it would have been expulsion, perhaps not under Umbridge's regime, but I doubt Dumbledore would have stepped in, as he of course did with Harry.
I see no reason to have a marking system at all - if teachers find out, what good does it do to find out who told? And since Marietta had the guts to come forward, and not hide to Harry the fact she told, it seemed pointless and cruel.
I was also uncomfortable with the Imperius curse being used on her by one of the Order, and the Crucius curse Harry uses later - those are illegal curses, and no doubt the reasons Lucius etc are in Azkaban. Presumably, it's another case of the end justifying the means, not matter what.
Though I did love Draco's 'hungry' look at the idea of Harry being cursed. Mmm...slashariffic.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the hexing in this book was pretty all over the place, yet I couldn't help but note that the mean kids never seem to do any of it. There was certainly nothing intimidating about the Inquisitor Squad, huh? It seemed like occasionally they took a stab at trying to put a stop to the continuous practical jokes and got hexed. One of them even had his parents show up he was ill for so long. You have to wonder, too, why Snape wouldn't be teaching his own kids DADA in this case, as long as no one else is teaching the class. (You have to wonder even more why Dumbledore doesn't give him the job...apparently having no teacher is better than having Snape?) Maybe he just doesn't have time with the Occlumency lessons and all things Harry.

I see no reason to have a marking system at all - if teachers find out, what good does it do to find out who told? And since Marietta had the guts to come forward, and not hide to Harry the fact she told, it seemed pointless and cruel.

Yes, that's the part that creeps me out. I meant I can see the point of having a system whereby if their cover is blown they know it, but this didn't seem to do that. It just marked the person who did it for punishment and shaming. It's kind of particularly funny that the word that appears is SNEAK because Hermione and Harry etc. would so look down on that, yet of course the whole club is about sneaking.:-)

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[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I wondered about that - Snape's clearly qualified, and if Dumbledore puts St.Harry's life in his hands, clearly he must trust him. I had hopes that perhaps Snape loved Potions (what with his speech about the subtle art of it) and it was just rumours he wanted DaDa. I frankly don't trust Dumbledore an inch though. So he'd rather have a werewolf, a sham, a Death Eating student abuser and Voldemort himself than Snape? Fine. Don't blame anyone else when you have to cry your crocodile tears then.
And Montague - he was just doing his job. I have very little time for Fred and George, although perhaps I'd like them better in real life than in books. They're funny, but in a callous way - hissing first years is something Malfoy has never sunk as low as, for instance.
I love how anything can be excused by the Trio - can they do no wrong? Kidnapping, assault, Unforgivable curses, ganging up, sneaking themselves (what were they planning on doing in Book 2 if Malfoy had been the Heir? Obviously that's the kind of situation that needs adult resolution, but then they could have just told Dumbledore their suspicions in the first place), lying, bullying.
Interestingly enough, Harry goes through a few Deadly Sins in this book - lust (if that counts, which imo, not really, but hey, it's in The Book), jealousy, anger, pride, sloth. Gluttony and greed are left out, but then I couldn't find much evidence for any of the seven virtues, so there we are.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I have very little time for Fred and George, although perhaps I'd like them better in real life than in books. They're funny, but in a callous way - hissing first years is something Malfoy has never sunk as low as, for instance.

I remember thinking about them when Harry was angsting over James' callousness and he thought that yes, he knew they were pranksters but he always thought they were just like the twins. And I thought, well, gee Harry, maybe if you were a Slytherin on the receiving end of their pranks you wouldn't find them as funny either!!

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[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Well, precisely!
Poor little baby Slytherins, it's their first day, they don't know which house they'll be in, they get in the one their parents have no doubt hoped for, and the most popular kids are hissing them.
I could easily see Fred and George levitating someone like Malfoy, and feeling absolutely no guilt whatsoever, and to my mind, that's amoral.

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[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I thought Pansy conducting was hilarious.
Harry hasn't even been humiliated by Dudley like that - from day one, he's been confident enough to stand up to the Dursleys, stand up to Draco (ooh, that bugged me - I think I can tell the wrong sort for myself - both the implied superiority and the fact he blatantly can't!)
I can't find anything that's happened to him that could be as embarrassing as the 'Snivellus' thing - the only other event in canon that compares humiliation wise is dadada....the ferret incident.
From day one, Draco's been shown to cave into a mass of hysteria/humiliation - he barely utters a word to his father after being chastised, he blushes when Harry turns him down (aaahhh, woobie), he treats Snape - the only person to give him a chance, with utter deference and respect.
Plus the fact that Snape gets embarrassed in front of people who's opinion we have no idea whether he cares about. (Wouldn't be suprised if he had a H/D style rejection by James.)
Harry gets embarrassed in front of people who he despises, people he thinks he is better than. Never is Harry humiliated in front of his friends (excepting class, and boo frickin hoo. EVERYONE in the world has had that); without them sticking up for him, outnumbering or outsmarting his enemies (and does he respect his mates for this?!)
Draco gets humiliated in front of his friends, in front of teachers, in front of entire classes, when it's clear he desperately and unlike Harry wants admiration, friendship and respect. (Just like Snivellus wanted, no doubt. Ooh, the parallels found in such a sucktacular book!)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

When I pictured Pansy conducted I could so imagine her in a sorority.

Severus is 15 when that incident happens and that makes a big difference, too. Anything pre-Hogwarts for Harry would probably have a different effect. Dudley seemed to have one group of friends who would pick on Harry but you're right, it doesn't seem like he was humiliated in front of a big group of his peers. Not like the ferret incident or this Snivellus thing.

I love the way Draco deals with authority figures. He's really cut out for it, obviously. Sitting quietly with Dad, taking Marcus Flint's abuse after the Quidditch game. I love the way he is with Snape. One of the funniest things about the pensieve scene, for me, is the way it seemed like a brief glimpse of Draco the regular student when he comes in all, "Excuse me, Professor..." and is explaining the thing about finding a Slytherin in the toilet. He's efficient, polite, doesn't cause trouble with Harry, just mouths, "Remedial Potions?" over Snape's shoulder.

At Hogwarts, it's true, Harry's friends not only back him up but usually succeed. The thing with Draco is that even when he's got back up they're usually clobbered or ineffective as well.

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[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Harry has never feared Dudley, it seems - look at him mouth off in Book 1 about toilets.
And since Harry had no friends, there was no one to be humiliated in front of. And again, Harry being so independent, he didn't seem to care that he had no friends.
I like Draco's way of dealing with authority - smart kid. And the mouthing...heh. He's all shocked cos he has faith in Harry!
I always feel sorry for Draco and his friends - they may be 'arrogant' or appear that way, but they have nothing to back it up, so either they're badly written into arrogance, or they're INSANELY overconfident, which I doubt.
Crabbe and Goyle always get hexed along with Draco (so loyal, bless them!), despite the fact they've never laid a hand on anyone or even said a word! And poor Draco gets the shit kicked out of him, despite the fact the Trio always attack physically first (ah, how noble. Like in PS, when Harry 'bravely' threatens to fight them for Ron's honour. That's not bravery. That's fighting when there's no need, when it's stupid and pointless and won't win you anything, not because it's the right thing to do or because some things are worth fighting for. That's weakness.)
I could have swacked Harry myself in OotP for not fucking SHUTTING HIS MOUTH. I felt bad about the cuts, but not that bad frankly, a) because I thought the whole Umbridge thing was a very lazy power corrupts theme, and her forcing people to cut themselves - please. She may as well have twirled a black moustache and had the Inquisitors wear swastikas. B) Harry was happy to milk his wounds. C) Because if someone gives you detention when you end up cutting yourself, make the frickin effort not to get detention! But Harry had to do the 'I am right, and will proclaim it in my own little power issue, I'll do what I want as I always have, no-one tells me what to do.' I'm a stubborn person myself, so I empathize, but that's not the kind of bravery that the best of Gryffindor endorses, it's the kind of mindless disregard for survival that the best of Slytherin would look down on. Take your punishment like a big boy and keep your head down like McGonagall said, because you're playing into their hands, making yourself and everyone on your side, including Dumbledore, look the hysteric attention seeker you're cracked up to be.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

And since Harry had no friends, there was no one to be humiliated in front of. And again, Harry being so independent, he didn't seem to care that he had no friends.

I've always had a hard time really understanding Harry's early life. Dudley is such a loser it's hard to believe he could convince any other kids not to be friends with cool, easy-going Harry. It almost seems as if Harry never met other kids until Hogwarts. Even if the Dursleys made it impossible to have friends after school surely he'd have gotten along with kids in school. I'd expect he'd be much more popular than Dudley, really. So yeah, I agree that while Harry was downtrodden he never seems like the kind of kid who gets picked on by everyone like Snape probably was.

I always feel sorry for Draco and his friends - they may be 'arrogant' or appear that way, but they have nothing to back it up, so either they're badly written into arrogance, or they're INSANELY overconfident, which I doubt.

This is something that's always bothered me. Sometimes I feel like Draco & Co. are based on every memory JKR has of ever being teased in grade school and that she still can't see these kids as human like herself. Draco so often seems to me like an idealized bully: he mouths off, but you've always got the cleverer comeback. He looks threatening with his goons but you always beat him up. He acts superior but you beat him at every game, look better than him and his friends, get higher marks. He's humiliated all the time, he rarely scores a hit off you. Plus he has no redeeming characteristics whatsoever so you can feel free to despise him without worrying about hurting his feelings: he doesn't have any. He only exists to try to pick on you and fail.

Sometimes I just want to say, JKR, really, this is something that should be worked out in therapy and not on the character you've created. In some ways I find something like Nocturne_Ally more realistic because you've got house biases, yes, but you still get the sense that these are all kids in the same class. Realistically there would be times when Gryffs would probably have laughed at Draco's antics in class or they'd have talked about homework or something. That Draco hasn't seemed to change at all seems like as much a lack of maturity on Harry's part as his own, sometimes.

I'm glad I wasn't the only person not all that impressed with Umbridge. To me she seemed more like an annoyance than anything else, sort of like Dean Wormer in Animal House. She tried to do things at the school but never had any real control at all. She just seemed more menacing because Harry handed her so much power, like by making the cutting thing a point of honor between them instead of going to McGonagall and saying the woman was a lunatic. The Slytherins seemed, if anything, amused at how easily she could get under his skin. There were many times in this book when I thought Gryffindors were insanely easy to tease. Draco even makes Neville fly into a rage accidentally.

Meanwhile it was so funny when we got the little glimpses of the way the Slytherins could deal with her. (Btw, I read someone somewhere say Umbridge was definitely Slytherin but her hysterical rant about nobody doing anything about Harry so she did sounded like the kind of zealotry I'd expect from a Gryff or a Hufflepuff myself. She was a true believer, not a Slytherin, imo.) They just were nice to her face and found ways to use her own stuff against her, like Snape with his, "Sure I gave you Veritaseum. I told you not to use it all." I couldn't believe Harry thought Snape was really just abandoning him there at the end and not going to check up on Sirius. He was just being smart in not telling Umbridge that, of course.

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[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

It almost seems as if JK was lazy again, and didn't really consider any character's pre-Hogwarts life. Where did the Wizards learn to read and write and make friends? If there's a school, how come Draco and Ron didn't meet? Why does Hermione have absolutely no connections with Muggle life?
Agreed, Draco is the stereotypical bully. But if one beats him all the time, he's not really stereotypical. I wish JK'd see that by making him lose all the time, she's building up sympathy for him, and the feeling that Harry has his own way too often.
I was more upset by the Hippogryff slashing than by Harry's line cuts for example.
The others did seem to agree with Draco re: Hagrid, as did the Ravenclaws, although I wouldn't be suprised if they were too intimidated to be obvious about it, since Draco's pretty much ostracised - for a rich kid who plays Quidditch, is a prefect and is prominent in his House (holding court, bless him), he doesn't seem to have many friends, or be very happy.
Umbridge = Dean Wormer - bwahahaha! I'm having all these Simpsons spoofs running down - the school of Hard Knockers and panty raids!
I thought she had some good points in investigating the way Hogwarts was run, then she goes all Evil with a capital E.
The Gryffindor's tempers are childish, and self-control doesn't mean being a 'sycophant' or 'cunning'. It means being mature.
Harry's so dumb sometimes. If someone isn't waving a go Harry banner, he assumes they're evil.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Agreed, Draco is the stereotypical bully. But if one beats him all the time, he's not really stereotypical. I wish JK'd see that by making him lose all the time, she's building up sympathy for him, and the feeling that Harry has his own way too often.

Exactly. He's not a bully if he never manages to bully anyone. He's more like a pipsqueak who just refuses to go away. On one hand I feel like I'm supposed to immediately resent all the Slytherins because they're supposedly rich and pureblooded and exclusionary, but then they never actually show any of the things you would resent those kinds of people for. Even their ugliness works against them--generally people with money can afford to make themselves more attractive, you know? But they seem to be the outcasts of the school.

Meanwhile, like you said, Harry has a never ending list of special powers and talents. Sometimes it's really hard to be ordinary. Not that I think Draco is ordinary. Even with the little we know of him he sounds like he's got a nice little imagination and is really creative.

I was more upset by the Hippogryff slashing than by Harry's line cuts for example.

Oh, I find the whole hippogryff thing so disturbing. The whole book kind of turns on the idea that an innocent pet is being unfairly destroyed while we jeer at the person who got hurt by it and say it was his own fault. Not only would nobody really react that way in real life if somebody's animal attacked them without real physical provocation, but honestly, why should Draco be nice about this incident at all? He hates Hagrid, he hates the Gryffindors. I'll bet if his father's prized python bit him he'd suck it up. But for Hagrid's 89th pet? I don't think so.

I thought she had some good points in investigating the way Hogwarts was run, then she goes all Evil with a capital E. The Gryffindor's tempers are childish, and self-control doesn't mean being a 'sycophant' or 'cunning'. It means being mature.

Interesting that Trelawny is really just given a paycheck for one prophesy about Harry. I've always wondered why the school wasted money and time on that class. Hagrid, too, teaches because he's friends with the right people despite pretty much everyone learning more and enjoying the class more with the substitute.

It's funny...I have a friend who by temperment is probably kind of Gryffindor. She has a really hard time not telling the truth. She'd play right into Umbridge's hands as well. But lately in dealing with certain people she's said she tried to do things the way I would because I'm so non-confrontational. And you're right, it's not about being cunning or a sycophant (though you wonder if people outside Harry's group see him as having a bunch of sycophants himself) it's just dealing with certain people the way that's going to be most effective. The problem with Harry is everything becomes a battle of wills, especially with somebody like Umbridge.

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[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Exactly - it's not what you know, it's who you know.
If you're friends with Dumbledore, you can have a job, despite the fact an unqualified teacher jeopardises the education of hundreds a year, merely to keep a few people (Dumbledore, the teacher, Harry and the trio as pertains to Hagrid) happy.
I have a Ravenclawish temperment I guess, but since they (interestingly the female founders - another case of male domination at Hogwarts) are pretty much unknowns at this point, I would definitely say I'm Slytherin over Gryffindor.
It's funny how in hurting people, the ends justifys the means, but Harry would rather suffer physically than have people doubt his rightness. In my opinion, he rather brought his punishment on his own head, which is why I was glad he didn't complain about it.

Draco sounds like a sweet enough kid - his first ever instinct in the book is to reach out and try and be friends with this scruffy sullen kid. Yes, he comes off badly to Harry, but an adult can read between the lines and see his father's influence there - what's the betting he was told to ask other kids names before befriending them, in case they were Mudbloods?
He's talented, smart, funny, and creative.
But every time he tries, he gets knocked down. It'd make anyone bitter. (even in CoS movie, I found the Herbology shot very interesting - Draco pets the Mandrake, which promptly bites him.)
As for the hippogryff thing, I compare that to a school trip to the zoo.
One doesn't take the children into the lions cage and warn them not to tease. If you have any sense at all (and Hagrid's experience with animals should at least have taught him something), you don't put untamed animals near children at all.
How many times do you read in the paper about a pit bull terrier or rottweiler attacking a kid who teased it? And how many times did the journalist and law governing body in charge of the case take the view that the kid had it coming because of their natural impulses? Exactly.
I had no sympathy for Hagrid and his pathetic drowning of his sorrows (yeah, super brave. It's easy to be physically brave when you're the size of a fucking tree, but anything more emotional than that and it's into the booze, no matter if it means putting peoples lives in danger a la PS.)
He cared more about some frickin animal than the fact it had attacked someone. If Draco's arm had fell off, he wouldn't have wept over the guilt of causing someone pain, because in his infinite wisdom the whole family's rotten so they deserve whatever happens to them.
In England, we have a National Society for the Protection of Children, but a Royal Society for the Protection of Animals, which shows you our lovely priority system.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I always get sorted in Ravenclaw too. I think that's why I always feel like Ravenclaws lean slightly towards the Slytherin side. Hufflepuffs sometimes seem like Gryff Jrs. I guess expect head-oriented people to not be carried away by that Gryff rah rah mentality. Even in this book it's Cho who is trying to present Marietta's side of things and rejecting Harry's SHE'S A SNEAK attitude.

He's talented, smart, funny, and creative.

It's kind of surprising to think about how creative, particularly as opposed to Harry, he is. Harry's best at Quidditch and gets the job done when he's up against the bad guys, but he's not that intellectually curious or creative. I was surprised at how he threw away those Occulamancy (sp?) lessons. Who wouldn't want to learn that?? But way back in first year Draco's telling long, wild stories about being attacked by Muggles and escaping via helicopter(?), imitating other students that he clearly watches and imagines lives for, then in OotP he's writing songs. Sometimes I think, aw, the poor kid really ought to be a writer.

One doesn't take the children into the lions cage and warn them not to tease.

And here it's even sillier because at least with animals "teasing" implies some kind of physical intimidation. Draco's told, IIRC, not to insult the animal and he's petting it and jokingly calls him a big ugly brute in a baby voice. He probably thought he could be a little entertaining while still staying within safe bounds--because we all know Draco wouldn't knowingly put himself in danger from the animal. Did Hagrid even tell them just what the animal would do if insulted? It's kind of funny to think of Buckbeak living with Sirius who'd be insulting Kreacher all day long. Hope he never accidentally directed a remark towards Buckbeak!

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[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely. I'm a head over heart person, and the Slyths and Rvaenclaws seem to follow that, as the Gryfs and Huffs prefer heart.
Harry is very uncurious. Someone theorised because of his upbringing with the Dursleys, he learnt not to ask questions, as you won't get the answers, and this also bears on why he doesn't seem to trust authority figures.
Still, he seems to be very uninterested in learning. Perhaps it goes back to heart over head again, and he simply doesn't care about things that don't affect him emotionally/physically.

Oh yeah, Draco's helicopter - cracked me up when I read that, and made me think perhaps he'd secretly seen a few Muggle movies (where on earth did he pick up what the ballet was, in another Muggle knowledge nitpick?)
And he's got his song (aw, bless), and his intellectual curiousity and curiousity about the lives of others (the Daily Prophet reading, the cuttings his dad sends him, and one day I'll count how many times in canon some insulting form of 'How are you feeling, Potter?' is asked. I know it's a lot.)
I can't believe that a hippogryff would miraculously understand English, let alone differentiate between tone and meaning. It's an especially dangerous creature because if it realises that, it must have known that it wasn't being physically threatened, it was just pure 'pride'. Ugh. Stupid hippogryff, sounds like a Gryffindor. Besides, it was a great ugly brute - it brutally attacked!

[thegraybook.livejournal.com]

I don't know if JKRs gotten to the point where she's not edited but I really felt like she should have dropped some of the ideas here.

I was in fact told by another children's book author that the word in the publishing world is that OOtP was not edited at all. Copyedited yes, edited no, because it was turned in so late.

Shows, eh?

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Why does that not surprise me one bit?

[ackonrad.livejournal.com]

A wonderful review. Thank you so much for writing that.

I've always been one of the few who had always thought Draco loves his father and he's loved back by Lucius. I've never seen any hints for the abused!Draco theories, and I'm glad that that's been cleared out. Draco has never really threatened Harry before his father came into Azkaban, and this was probably the first and last moment when I saw some hints that Draco may become more mature. The end of the book leaves definitely some H/D possibilities.

Harry is certainly very arrogant, in this book he was even more arrogant than Draco, but he's also very self-righteous. He has always been like this, since the first book, and that's what I've always disliked in him and the other Gryffindors. It's very interesting to see that Ginny's words from CoS to Draco:"Leave him alone, he doesn't want all this!" aren't true anymore. I think that it was obvious in this book that Harry actually needs the whole attention he's gotten as The Boy Who Lived. He was jealous when Ron became a prefect, and immediately thought why it should have been him - he was the big Hero after all. When nobody wanted to tell him what's going on, he thought how much he deserves to know because he is the Hero. In general, I completely agree that Harry's nasty, rude, self-righteous behaviour to Draco can be compared to James's behaviour to Snape. The Sorting Hat song thing was well-spotted.

I'm glad you've written that about the Death Eaters and how JKR's description of them is absoluteley ludicrous. We had their photos in the DP with description about how many people they've managed to kill until now, and in their battle with the kids Lucius and the others (except Bellatrix) didn't even try to use some Unforgivable Curse properly! How is it possible for people who've been apparently trained in the Dark Arts and who've killed people and made people insane not to be able to conquer a couple of kids? It doesn't make any sense.

Ginny and Neville's sudden transformances were absolutely bad done. I'm sorry, but it's true. In the first four books, we had a scared, forgetful, awkward Neville and a shy, blushing, passive Ginny, and suddenly they're both supposed to have become so great without any real development? And Ginny as a great Seeker (actually she lost her first game - Hufflepuff won against Gryffindor, but as you said it seemed her brother's fault, not hers - she caught the Snitch) is simply something so exaggerated that I have no words. I hated Ginny before, and I certainly don't like her better now.

Overall, there's still hope to see some positive development for the Slytherins, although I'm not sure it will happen anymore. JKR seems inclined to make them look like big, ugly and stupid losers, and in this book I didn't see really any sign that would change. We'll see in the next years...

The American version was over 800 pages? The British one was exactly 766 pages long...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

870 pages, I think. I pre-ordered the British version which should be coming soon, but I caved and bought one to read before that.:-)

I really do hope Draco becomes more mature but I just don't trust his author at this point. This may be totally unfair of me because as I said up there I see many hints that Slytherin is important and Lucius has been sent to jail. But I also just feel sometimes that Harry's attitude--and Hermione the author-insertion's too--is the same as JKR's, which would mean that the Slytherins really are subhuman and a waste of space. Therefore all the characters who are "good" shall be granted ever-growing powers which they have not earned in any way while the Slytherins will continue to dimish. There were times in this book where I thought, "How can any of these guys still be in school if they're so dumb?" Meanwhile the one thing we've always counted on in Neville, that he's just not that good at magic, suddenly gets wiped away.

And no, I don't buy the idea that the new Ginny in particular is just a case of Harry noticing her for the first time. As self-absorbed as he is, he's still been intimate with the Weasley family for a while now and they rarely shut up about each other, really. Plus I note that Ron, too, is completely clueless about the sister closest to him in age who lives with him. I'd assume if anybody was stealing the twins' brooms it would be both of them together. Ginny just became one of those annoying girl characters who can do no wrong and is tough and nice to all the right people besides--I wanted to smack her.

There were definitely times when I wondered if Harry, seen from the outside, would not come across as easily as bad or worse than Draco to someone who didn't know him. We didn't get any Draco-whining in this book, I noticed. Harry took up the "It's not fair!" cry and carried it throughout the book. Even with the OotP looking after him (The Weasleys, Remus, Sirius, Snape) and giving him extra attention he's complaining that Dumbledore is treating him like he's just a student at the school. Now, I can see why Harry felt he deserved more consideration from Dumbledore (and he did) but I couldn't help but think how odd it was to have Harry playing passive-aggressive games with Dumbledore like that. In the end--this killed me--he even gets an apology from Dumbledore for not making him prefect! (Sorry Ron, you really were second choice, just as Harry thought you deserved!) I have a hard time believing that Harry's extreme attitudes about things like this and his sense of personal entitlement with Dumbledore, doesn't come off clearly to other students.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, and re: abused Draco. Even with the little we get of Draco I've always thought part of what was so horrible about his story was that Lucius' hold over him obviously had a lot to do with love. This is why it frustrates me, for instance, when people say, "Well, Harry was raised by horrible people and he didn't become like them!" Well, yeah, Harry was raised by people he hated and who made it clear he wasn't part of their family. Who wants to be them? Maybe if they'd given him a tricycle too he'd have ended up a lot more like Dudley!

Draco, I think, has gotten very careful messages from Lucius over the years. I think the smallest bit of praise from Lucius probably lights that kid up for a week. This is why it drives me crazy to think his family situation now possibly won't be explored. I keep picturing him and Narcissa at home at the end. Draco's in bed or on the couch, probably still swollen and sore from the hexing. Narcissa has a house elf bring some tea or something. Lucius is gone. What do they do? Draco's thinking how he tried to avenge his father against the kid (a kid!) who got him and failed miserably. Meanwhile they're gearing up to show even more family pride to the world...

[ackonrad.livejournal.com]

Exactly, you said it. Harry was raised by people who apparently hated him and whom he hated as well. In Draco's case, we know that he worships his father. His second-last meeting with Harry only confirmed that. If he didn't really love his father, then why would he look so angry like Harry's never seen him? Draco genuinely wants his Dad to come out of the jail, and not only because Dad might give him money. Draco loves his father, and I can't imagine he would love him if Lucius treated him bad.

Draco, I think, has gotten very careful messages from Lucius over the years. I think the smallest bit of praise from Lucius probably lights that kid up for a week.

I agree Lucius isn't probably the best parent - he was very formal with his son in CoS. He clearly wants Draco to follow his steps and has done everything to make sure Draco will do exactly this. I suppose you're right - I can imagine Draco getting some attention if he'd managed to hex some Muggle kid when he was a child... That had made him realise - if I hex the Muggles, Dad loves me more. If I say they're stupid, Dad praises me. Little children crave attention. I really hope we'll get the possibility to find out more about Draco's family life.