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Arrr!
I be now t'proud ownero'a lovely velvet Frodo-jacket and a Pippin scarf. Today's smartly-dressed gentlehobbit shops at T'Gap!
Happy Talk Like a Pirate Day Everyone!!
I've also been havin' some good conversations about that Malfoy lad lately with![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
reenka and rpzeal and it's been makin' me think about him...again. You'll be happyt'know I decided nott'do this part in pirate, exceptt'say that he's a good lad, smart as paint, and that his dad be Captain Hook."
We were talking about Draco the possible future Death Eater, something a lot of people think is a given. The first problem with this is that, of course, Draco doesn't seem like he'd be really useful to Voldemort. I doubt Voldemort would call him and to say, "Right, Malfoy. I'll be facing Potter again next week and Dumbledore is sure to be there. I'm going to need some insulting nicknames for Albus and if you throw in a few limericks using Dumbledore that imply his mother had a moustache there could be a promotion in your future."
But let's for a moment pretend that Draco had some skills in the Dark Arts. Would he want to be a Death Eater? That got me thinking about his real feelings on Voldemort and the whole Pureblood superiority thing. The Pureblood thing seems pretty obvious--he's all for it. But you know, I'm not so sure. I don't mean he's secretly politically correct. A world where he was superior for being a Malfoy would be great with him, I'm sure. But to really sign on as a DE I think you need to fanatically believe that the WW must be purged of Mudbloods and halfbloods so that the superior Purebloods can rule as is their destiny as superior beings and I just don't think he buys that.
When I think about Draco's scenes, it seems like the most confident he ever was in the idea that Purebloods were superior was in Madam Malkin's when he first brought it up to Harry. He'd been living at home for 11 years and this was probably the first kid he'd ever met on his own that wasn't part of the Pureblood circle. He's wants to be Lucius and he talks like Lucius--it's pretty obvious he's quoting somebody else. Draco himself would hardly have given much thought to whether Muggleborns should be at school with Pureblood children. After that, though, it's all downhill. The B&B scene in CoS is, to me, the real demonstration of where Pureblood superiority gets him and it's not good. He gets criticized throughout the scene and accused of not living up to his own bloodline. He even has to come up with reasons he was beat by over-acheiving Hermione. If Draco does something right it's his blood talking, if he screws up it's his fault. If there's a way for him to be personally impressive he doesn't seem to be able to find it. He may be called a Pureblood but he seems to fit what's he been told is a Mudblood: inferior.
Because of that I see a little difference between Draco's racism and Lucius.' If they were in the Klan Lucius is a little more like the evil lawyers they get to speak for them in court who dress things up in reasonable language. Draco's the guys the lawyers try to hide from the public--the ones spouting racist rhetoric flat-out. Draco's version of racism, though, is the more honest. (I'm leaving aside here all the logical reasons why I think Muggleborns are a natural threat to the WW here because Voldemort's policy isn't really about that, obviously.) Calling someone a racist name is really just a way of saying they're nothing and trying to make them feel like nothing. This is the way Draco seems to think of it from Book 2 onward.
Draco tells lies whenever it suits his purpose, but ironically, his character often knows the truth even when many other students don't. In CoS he doesn't believe Harry is the Heir of Slytherin. In GoF he honestly seems to know Harry didn't put his own name in the Goblet (not because he was told; he just seems to know this is the type of thing that would just happen to Potter). In OotP he knows Harry isn't lying about Voldemort. This, imo, is a big part of the reason Harry hates him so much. It would be bad enough if he were a dupe like Percy, but Draco's usually making a show of letting Harry know that he's lying to annoy him. When he cheerfully tells everyone how he's talked to Umbridge first thing about the Quidditch team he obviously hasn't just become a goody-goody who loves beaurocracy; he just knows how annoying the Gryffindors are going to find Umbridge's system and enjoys not backing them up on how stupid it is. Just as he refuses to back up Harry on not being crazy when he knows he isn't in OotP. Or just enjoys watching Harry get roasted for sticking his name in the Goblet. When he's taking points from the other students as a member of Umbridge's squad he's again making it obvious that he knows how ridiculous the whole situation is: points from Potter because he doesn't like him; points from Granger because she's a Mudblood--which he forgot about for a second. That whole scene is like, "Can you believe this? The woman gave me the power to take points! It's completely wrong! Watch me do it anyway. Chaos rocks!"
Even his stupidest insult in OotP on the Quidditch pitch actually do hold a bit of truth to him. He's not just telling Harry his mother smelled, he's teasing him about thinking of the Weasleys as his own family. Draco almost always tells the truth in CoMC, pissing Harry off to no end. And when he gives information about "the other side" he's usually being truthful (the hint about Sirius OotP, the DEs in the woods of GoF, the hint about Hagrid and the Giants, telling Harry about Sirius in PoA). One of the reasons Harry can't ignore him is that, as he says in PoA, "Malfoy knows."
His role in the story has always been to observe and comment. I can't imagine this character really joining up with Voldemort, especially since, as I said, I think he's started to understand what this Pureblood idea is really about: I hate them; they hate me; these are names I can call them that they can't call me. Then there's Voldemort himself. He loves bringing him up to frighten Harry, telling him the Dark Lord is going to come to get him, but upon seeing him he runs from him. He flinches at hearing the man's name. He doesn't seem ready with the "Voldemort's coming to get you" remarks when Harry jokes about Voldemort being a mate of his dad's--maybe Draco isn't very happy about Dad's choice of friends now. The one time Draco seems actually involved in the proceedings at all is when he confronts Harry about his father being in jail.
Would it really be "growing up" for him to give up his role as the guy who catches Harry's eye and smirks to let him know "Malfoy knows" and become a drone in a psycho's army? I can't see it. I would rather see him stay the same watcher and commentator, only with a darker edge. Instead of seeing Harry's vulnerabilities and laughing at them, he could see Harry's darker impulses and throw them in his face more. God knows Harry could use somebody like that. IMO, anyway.
I be now t'proud ownero'a lovely velvet Frodo-jacket and a Pippin scarf. Today's smartly-dressed gentlehobbit shops at T'Gap!
Happy Talk Like a Pirate Day Everyone!!
I've also been havin' some good conversations about that Malfoy lad lately with
reenka and rpzeal and it's been makin' me think about him...again. You'll be happyt'know I decided nott'do this part in pirate, exceptt'say that he's a good lad, smart as paint, and that his dad be Captain Hook."We were talking about Draco the possible future Death Eater, something a lot of people think is a given. The first problem with this is that, of course, Draco doesn't seem like he'd be really useful to Voldemort. I doubt Voldemort would call him and to say, "Right, Malfoy. I'll be facing Potter again next week and Dumbledore is sure to be there. I'm going to need some insulting nicknames for Albus and if you throw in a few limericks using Dumbledore that imply his mother had a moustache there could be a promotion in your future."
But let's for a moment pretend that Draco had some skills in the Dark Arts. Would he want to be a Death Eater? That got me thinking about his real feelings on Voldemort and the whole Pureblood superiority thing. The Pureblood thing seems pretty obvious--he's all for it. But you know, I'm not so sure. I don't mean he's secretly politically correct. A world where he was superior for being a Malfoy would be great with him, I'm sure. But to really sign on as a DE I think you need to fanatically believe that the WW must be purged of Mudbloods and halfbloods so that the superior Purebloods can rule as is their destiny as superior beings and I just don't think he buys that.
When I think about Draco's scenes, it seems like the most confident he ever was in the idea that Purebloods were superior was in Madam Malkin's when he first brought it up to Harry. He'd been living at home for 11 years and this was probably the first kid he'd ever met on his own that wasn't part of the Pureblood circle. He's wants to be Lucius and he talks like Lucius--it's pretty obvious he's quoting somebody else. Draco himself would hardly have given much thought to whether Muggleborns should be at school with Pureblood children. After that, though, it's all downhill. The B&B scene in CoS is, to me, the real demonstration of where Pureblood superiority gets him and it's not good. He gets criticized throughout the scene and accused of not living up to his own bloodline. He even has to come up with reasons he was beat by over-acheiving Hermione. If Draco does something right it's his blood talking, if he screws up it's his fault. If there's a way for him to be personally impressive he doesn't seem to be able to find it. He may be called a Pureblood but he seems to fit what's he been told is a Mudblood: inferior.
Because of that I see a little difference between Draco's racism and Lucius.' If they were in the Klan Lucius is a little more like the evil lawyers they get to speak for them in court who dress things up in reasonable language. Draco's the guys the lawyers try to hide from the public--the ones spouting racist rhetoric flat-out. Draco's version of racism, though, is the more honest. (I'm leaving aside here all the logical reasons why I think Muggleborns are a natural threat to the WW here because Voldemort's policy isn't really about that, obviously.) Calling someone a racist name is really just a way of saying they're nothing and trying to make them feel like nothing. This is the way Draco seems to think of it from Book 2 onward.
Draco tells lies whenever it suits his purpose, but ironically, his character often knows the truth even when many other students don't. In CoS he doesn't believe Harry is the Heir of Slytherin. In GoF he honestly seems to know Harry didn't put his own name in the Goblet (not because he was told; he just seems to know this is the type of thing that would just happen to Potter). In OotP he knows Harry isn't lying about Voldemort. This, imo, is a big part of the reason Harry hates him so much. It would be bad enough if he were a dupe like Percy, but Draco's usually making a show of letting Harry know that he's lying to annoy him. When he cheerfully tells everyone how he's talked to Umbridge first thing about the Quidditch team he obviously hasn't just become a goody-goody who loves beaurocracy; he just knows how annoying the Gryffindors are going to find Umbridge's system and enjoys not backing them up on how stupid it is. Just as he refuses to back up Harry on not being crazy when he knows he isn't in OotP. Or just enjoys watching Harry get roasted for sticking his name in the Goblet. When he's taking points from the other students as a member of Umbridge's squad he's again making it obvious that he knows how ridiculous the whole situation is: points from Potter because he doesn't like him; points from Granger because she's a Mudblood--which he forgot about for a second. That whole scene is like, "Can you believe this? The woman gave me the power to take points! It's completely wrong! Watch me do it anyway. Chaos rocks!"
Even his stupidest insult in OotP on the Quidditch pitch actually do hold a bit of truth to him. He's not just telling Harry his mother smelled, he's teasing him about thinking of the Weasleys as his own family. Draco almost always tells the truth in CoMC, pissing Harry off to no end. And when he gives information about "the other side" he's usually being truthful (the hint about Sirius OotP, the DEs in the woods of GoF, the hint about Hagrid and the Giants, telling Harry about Sirius in PoA). One of the reasons Harry can't ignore him is that, as he says in PoA, "Malfoy knows."
His role in the story has always been to observe and comment. I can't imagine this character really joining up with Voldemort, especially since, as I said, I think he's started to understand what this Pureblood idea is really about: I hate them; they hate me; these are names I can call them that they can't call me. Then there's Voldemort himself. He loves bringing him up to frighten Harry, telling him the Dark Lord is going to come to get him, but upon seeing him he runs from him. He flinches at hearing the man's name. He doesn't seem ready with the "Voldemort's coming to get you" remarks when Harry jokes about Voldemort being a mate of his dad's--maybe Draco isn't very happy about Dad's choice of friends now. The one time Draco seems actually involved in the proceedings at all is when he confronts Harry about his father being in jail.
Would it really be "growing up" for him to give up his role as the guy who catches Harry's eye and smirks to let him know "Malfoy knows" and become a drone in a psycho's army? I can't see it. I would rather see him stay the same watcher and commentator, only with a darker edge. Instead of seeing Harry's vulnerabilities and laughing at them, he could see Harry's darker impulses and throw them in his face more. God knows Harry could use somebody like that. IMO, anyway.
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*laughs heartily* ahahahhaah omg, that is the BEST EVER, ahahaaha, OMG. DRACO THE COMPLETELY INCOMPETENT DEATH-EATER!! ahahah, fic potential, man :D :D :D
ehehehe draco-as-redneck-hick, eheheheheh. god, i love that comparison. okay, so it's only 12:30 and already my brain is just going "bleeep, leave a message".
eheheh i love the idea of draco knowing how stupid and wrong umbridge's little scheme was and doing it -for that reason-, just because he -has- to, of course, do the thing potter wouldn't want him to do. heeee. in that way, i totally understand him. i also like the idea (not mine) that umbridge promised the slytherins -power-: that while potter had his "da" which excluded them, the slytherins would thus have their own army, so to speak. it's that essential tit-for-tat dance that means draco does equal and opposite to whatever harry does. and i suppose they're both equally to blame until one of them hurts the other more than the other feels they can dish out right back. and so far that hasn't really happened, even though harry keeps beating draco at dueling & quidditch with seemingly no effort. somehow, draco retains the feeling that he can "get" potter, that it's just a matter of knowing exactly what potter's weaknesses are. heh. i love that~:)
also, ahahahahah. "Chaos rocks!" cracked me right up ~:))
heeeeeeee! i love draco the chaos-bunny. i mean, in a way it's giving him too much credit, maybe, but i do love the idea, anyway :D :D
not like harry's the champion of order by any means (not like he's fred&george, but it's really not like he's percy-- harry's really supposed to be balanced, i think, at his best, anyway). but still, it's delicious to think of it that way >:D<
ooooh, lovely connection to truth-telling with the bits about sirius & the danger to hermione. hey, it's true, isn't it. my god, you're brilliant :D :D heeeeeeee. i mean, usually i think of draco as the inveterate Liar, but i love to think that he also tells the truth at the most inconvenient times and in ways that he thinks will somehow inconvenience or complicate things for harry. heeeeee. it's like, he's indiscriminate in his methods and yet completely focused on his Goal. which is just very encouraging, i feel~:)
heheheh "draco as the watcher". loveit. dunno if he -wants- to be, actually, but i sure like him like that :D
Instead of seeing Harry's vulnerabilities and laughing at them, he could see Harry's darker impulses and throw them in his face more.
ahahaha and now we're in the fantasy-land of h/d shipping. *bounces*
i'm right there with you, man :D :D :D
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here (http://www2.expecto-patronum.net/reenka/_sumwine.html). eheheh it's bad, but~:)
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You really don't think so? Because I think it's very possible that Harry getting Lucius sent to prison entered their rivalry into new territory. While I do agree with the majority of these factors as contributing to Draco's attitude in the novels, I don't think you can really deny how he feels about his father. I mean, no matter how healthy (or un-) the relationship is, the fact remains that Draco feels very attached to his father, and if there was one time in the novels I could connect with him it was in his confrontation with Harry after the fact. I think that sent his relationship with Harry in a completely new direction, because this time it's really personal. I think Harry has hurt Draco to the point where it's no longer going to be just one-upping him on this. I can't really see Draco continuing with the same schoolboy rivalry he's had with Harry the past 5 books, which mainly consisted of pranks and lies crafted to Harry's detriment, and I think was mainly brought on and continued because of Harry's rejection of him from the beginning. I think it was some twisted form of trying to get Harry's approval. Even if Harry despised him, if he could prove to Harry that he was on the same level as him (how successfully he goes about this is another matter entirely)... But I don't think it's going to be about that anymore, because now he actually has reason to hate him, not just his wounded pride.
Just look at the Marauders. While the dynamics between MWPP and Snape weren't exactly the same, there was that point where a line was crossed (sending Severus to his possible death in the form of Remus). From then on it was no longer a schoolboy grudge, no matter what Lupin said about it in PoA, and for all we know may well have precipitated further events in Snape's life. I can see this being true of Draco. Putting aside Draco's actual potential as an effective DE, from his point of view he may not need to agree with Voldemort's politics to join his side if he has sufficient reason to despise those he knows on the other side.
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Anyway. I shall not tell lies.
What motivates Draco to do the things he does? You've already pinpointed one: To annoy the hell out of Potter. While this is almost certainly IT on the surface, there is also why he wants to annoy Harry so bad? Is it 1. He can't get Harry expelled, so he settle for the second best- make him suffer; or 2. This is the boy (not just any boy, but The Boy Who Lived) who turned him down, he has to prove to Harry, and himself, that he's good/better/right/worthy, otherwise he'll feel like shit. If it's 1., which was actually Snape's attitude up until the end of GOF, then he'll most likely want to do Harry real damage, thus more prone to joining the DS. (even without the Lucius factor) If it's 2., then.. how he treats Harry would be largely reactive. If Harry shows even more hate or contempt, Draco will get worse; if Harry becomes a bit nicer (which won't happen all of a sudden with no reason, I know), Draco will respond accordingly too.
Again just like you said, Draco basically just quotes his dad when it comes to the blood matter. He doesn't think about his true stance because there's nothing to motivate him into doing so. For 1. He's supposedly the 'superior' one and 2. All the muggle-borns he came across suck/treat him bad anyway, so no contradicting dad's theory. IF, ever there is a muggle-born who is kind or at least friendly to Draco, it'll be interesting to see how he reacts.
So apart from hating Harry, what other elements of life drives him? Again as pointed out by you in other posts, he seems to want to be liked, worshipped, respected, appreciated. Who can give him that? And if no one gives him any of the above, what would he take? Power? Maybe.
What I think of Draco, is that while he of course has a very strong personality, he very often is like a mirror who reflects people's actions and attitudes toward him. Pansy seems to like him, so he faked a brave smile in return. Goyle and Crabbe seem to be waiting for his instructions, so he gives commands. Ron seems to loathe him, so he loathe him back. Hermione mocks him, so he reserves the more intelligent insults for her (notice how he snaps back at Ron without thinking). Harry does not want to have anything to do with him, so naturally, he won't let him be. So in conclusion I think Draco's future would depend on who reachs out for him first, or at least offers him something he could settle for. He seems to be the sort who would be completely loyal once he chose the person to devote to (but he seldom offers such devotion, currently only Lucius I'm certain, maybe Snape too..), it would be so great if Harry can have him on his side. But how the hell is that gonna happen!
Wah. Look at me blab.
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All these posts are totally making me understand my own pov more. Go team you!
I think part of the problem for me with Draco going to Voldemort to annoy Harry (heh--it sounds so funny but for this kid annoying Harry is a religion!) is that it's so predictable. Harry's assumed this kid is DE material since Day 1. Heir of Slytherin targetting Mudbloods? Somebody trying to keep me from going back to school? Must be Malfoy. The book would have ended pretty quickly if it were!
For this reason I feel like Draco would almost reach his goal of annoying Harry better if he *didn't* join the DEs. I mean, that's just been so done. Snape did it, and one would think he'd be able to communicate to Draco that this is a bad idea. It's not like Draco's siding with Voldemort could ever rival Peter's joining of Voldemort in terms of pain it inflicted on Harry or pure shock value. So yeah, he could just ride out the destiny Harry already expects from him where he turns to Voldemort because he can't get Harry himself but geez, what's the point in seeing it play out since it's already so cliche? If Draco came to school with a tattoo the general reaction would probably be, "Didn't you, like, get one of those when you were like, born?"
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*heart and brain melt*
(ps- i was going to since i've read many of your comments on NA, but I kept forgetting to ^_^)
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Re: *heart and brain melt*
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Basically, IMO, Draco is not suited to become a Death Eater. He is far too passionate, intuitive, fierce and fixated to beat Harry to be able to think rationally. And what's more important - he just can't keep his mouth shut.
The Lucius-Draco father-son relationship has always interested me, and I've come to the conclusion that Lucius is certainly fond of his son, but he doesn't have much time for Draco. However, he expects his son to behave like a real Malfoy, although he clearly doesn't spent enough time with him to teach him how to do it.
I've always regarded Draco like a very innocent child. It's true that he is clever and he knew that Harry wasn't the Heir of Slytherin, but it was quite surprising to see that Lucius clearly didn't trust his son enough to share with him who the real Heir of Slytherin was and what exactly had happened fifty years ago. IMO, Lucius is well aware of the fact that Draco just can't keep his mouth shut - the fact that Draco wanted to share such an important thing like where his father had hidden his Dark Arts stuff with idiots like Crabbe and Goyle was talking for itself. Draco can't keep a secret - he couldn't leave it to go and tell Harry about what he knew about Sirius in book 3. It was interesting to see that Lucius hadn't told Draco who the real traitor was - I'm sure that as a prominent Death Eater, Lucius had known that Peter was one of Voldemort's servants as well. Draco is innocent, because he often thinks he knows much, but in fact he knows only the superficial version of the story.
A real, evil Death Eater should be someone who can neglect personal feelings and concentrate on killing/torturing - something that Draco clearly isn't able to do, because his whole struggling with Harry is personal. Draco is far too innocent, childish and fierce to become a real Death Eater. He isn't cold enough, he isn't composed enough, and he isn't cruel enough - he warned Hermione in GoF. I have the bad feeling that if JKR decides to make him a Death Eater, he will fail miserably.
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I do wonder exactly how much Lucius tells him and how much is overheard, what Lucius thinks Draco is passing on to others and whether he uses Draco's big mouth to his advantage or if he doesn't know how much his son knows. After not knowing the truth about Sirius back in 3rd year Draco must be thrilled to be able to let Harry know he's in the know by OotP.
If Draco became a DE I worry his fate would be even more pathetic than Regulus.' I hope that isn't JKR's intention!
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But as Hannah Arendt, I think, has pointed, out, successful totalitarian organizations cultivate many faces. There may be only a small hard core that is fully initiated into the true viciousness of the leadership's plans, but the organization as a whole amounts to concentric circles around this core -- each outer layer having a more human face, and able to rationalize its cooperation with the slightly more vicious layer just above. In addition to torturers and enforcers, the DE's need an acceptable political face, they need propagandists, and networkers, and diplomats, and organizers of potential allies; they need effective spies and political fixers.
I can definitely see Draco in any of these latter roles. He's a proven leader, he's fun to be around, he can organize things like the badges and the Weasley song, he shows strong personal loyalty to people like Crabbe and Goyle so presumably he attracts similar loyalty in return.
You make fun of the idea of Voldemort needing "a good limerick against Dumbledore," but dirty-tricksters have always been a useful part of the political economy. At a slightly higher level, I can easily see him as a political fixer and schmoozer, organizing people to oppose or hamstring some crucial initiative of the Ministry, gathering information through his extensive social networks.
What's in this for Draco? Well, a couple of things. First, even though he would probably recoil at the actual hands-on viciousness of the core DE's, he has a significant capacity for denial, as shown in his inability to accept his father's guilt. He could tell himself he was standing up for his class and his family, rather than focusing on the part about slaughtering Muggles and Mudbloods. A "softer" version of the DE line seems consistent with his social pretensions and his class background. And I'm sure he'd be delighted to score politically off Dumbledore and his allies and the rest of the pro-Potter wizarding world.
But more importantly, there are aspects of Draco's own character that I think would attract him to the outer fringes of the DE. As you point out, he loves being an observer, he loves being "in the know." I think he would find the quasi-secret world of an insurgent movement a very seductive place to be. Furthermore, I think OOTP in particular shows a very significant development of his character that hasn't been adequately commented upon -- while in the past, he was always somewhat ineffective and ridiculous when acting on his own, in OOTP he has finally figured out that an alliance with authority (or at least power) can dramatically enhance his ability to act on his own resentments. His alliance with Umbridge allowed him to finally score off Potter in significant ways. He's not likely to forget that lesson.
For all these reasons, I'm not as complacent as I used to be that Draco would never "go bad" just because he's really not, personally, vicious enough. Draco can be manipulated, if Voldemort is smart enough and finds an appropriate role for him. Draco is vulnerable to such manipulation, right now, because of his extraordinary bitterness about his father. And Draco has the skills and talents to be a prize for the DE if they can find a way to use him on his own terms.
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But as things stand in the book now, as you describe in the first paragraph, the DEs are a small group of maniacs in a society not disposed to let them take power. England is not post-WW1 Germany. In order to create the kind of totalitarian state described here if seems like so much would have to change.
I do agree, though, as I said above, that Voldemort could manipulate Draco easily if he so chose--if I were Snape I'd be extra worried about Draco's future now because of this. But storywise I wonder whether this is the best use of the character too. Draco signing Voldemort is something everyone has probably imagine. Harry considers them connected. Outside of Draco fandom people probably consider it a given.
The bigger surprise is if the character does something else. It's like Snape's story in PS/SS on a grander scale. Snape as the bad guy would have been too obvious, as would Draco as the Heir of Slytherin in CoS. He's the person Harry thinks will be the DE at school. If there was any traitor there Draco would be the first one in anyone's mind. I can't help but think he holds greater potential as a character and a story element if he stands for something else. Not something good, necessarily, but something else.
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But Draco and his friends ganging up to hex Harry is a new development. It's not his usual style. It worries me. In that sense, I think his character is headed for change.
Because, it's no longer a game now as you put it. Draco seriously hates Harry now, and for the first time it's more important to hurt him than to gain approval from him. In the past, tipping Harry off to DE secrets why not? As long as he could impress Harry for even just a moment. But I can't imagine him doing the same from next school year.
A Draco-centric site sounds heavenly♥ Would save us all so much time explaining about our obsessions with him and, remind my aging brain what interesting things have been said about him.
One idea that keeps coming into my head is the James/Draco analogy. I mean, I keep seeing it everywhere. They're both extroverted and showoffs.
Yes! Yes! and......?
but joining the DEs outright seems a bit too throwing-everything-away-for-revenge for Draco to me.
Your version of Draco has more spine and I like that :-) I can see him going either way: completely disregards what hellhole he has gotten himself into as long as his current major goal gets achieved; or stubbornly sticks to his own way of paying back. Both are possible, but taking the Snape factor into consideration I'd say option 2 stands a big chance, I definitely prefers so.
I totally agree with comparing Harry sending Lucius to jail with Sirius sending Snape to werewolf!Lupin. Regardless of who started it and who was more at fault before, the two incidents definitely had 'crossed the line'. That's why,
If Draco came to school with a tattoo the general reaction would probably be, "Didn't you, like, get one of those when you were like, born?"
*LOL*
You always say the funniest line.
I know what you mean, it would be, far too predictable and Rowling might not like the idea of being seen as unsurprising. Eh?
England is not post-WW1 Germany. In order to create the kind of totalitarian state described here if seems like so much would have to change.
Agree. And she only has two books left too. I think Volde and co would have to settle for Al Qaeda status, forget Nazi.
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no subject
In the past, tipping Harry off to DE secrets why not? As long as he could impress Harry for even just a moment. But I can't imagine him doing the same from next school year.
Though I think impressing Harry is still a factor. Draco's threats to Harry in OotP were all about how Harry was going to be his to get and I think he meant it. Whatever Draco wants to see happen to Harry he needs Harry to know that he, Draco, did it. This could, of course, mean that Draco wants to be the one to turn Harry personally over to Voldemort. Voldemort could certainly promise to let Draco do the torturing whatever once he got him. If that happened, though, it seems like Draco would have to either get cold feet once Harry was with Voldemort and he himself was stuck in Voldemort's web or that Draco would be laughed at and destroyed by Voldemort in return for his services.
Speaking of Snape and the past repeating itself, I've always wanted to also keep open the possibility of Draco doing something to save Harry in the way James saved Snape. I don't think this would be completely impossible depending on the circumstances--if Draco felt he'd be saving his own skin to save Harry he might do it. James saved Severus despite hating him.
(no subject)
From:From: (Anonymous)
closet_geek, AKA angelica, AKA LURKER!
I realize I’m jumping in a bit late here—I only recently found out about this wonderful discussion, so my apologies go out to everyone. I actually just discovered a few days ago—to my delight, of course—that people have whole discussions about Draco on their ljs. This is quite the introduction into the lj world. So hello, hello. This is closet_geek from FAP, but from now just Angelica, and I had something to say.
Ahem.
Whenever people comment to me on Lucius Malfoy’s racism, mostly in reference to Draco’s, I always have to wonder about its origins, and why he keeps up with the silliness of it. I don’t mean that I think he’s secretly an angel, and the whole “Big Bad Death Eater Daddy” is a façade for the public and he covertly knits mittens for handicapped children and plays Santa Claus down at the Diagon Alley, or other such things—no, not at all. I think his racism, and Draco’s, stems from old Malfoy doctrines that Malfoys are better, superior, and the “looking down at Mudbloods” ideology came about because they needed someone to be better and superior [I]to[/I]. His racism comes from old family pride, and consequently so does Draco’s. Old family pride, the operative word being “old”. I absolutely agree with Jason Isaacs when he asked the costume department in COS to have him in furs and capes, a wicked little cane and long hair—a very period sort of look, because Lucius Malfoy’s a traditional sort of guy. (Imagine him in an Armani suit and glasses, like the costume people originally wanted. I think I speak for everyone if I say, “Eurgh!”, sticking out my tongue and all.) If it’s not broken, don’t fix it, and that goes for his family values too. He would keep the whole pureblood thing up—because, why not, really?
Lucius lecturing to Baby Draco: We’re Malfoys, and we [I]are[/I] superior and better. If not because we’re rich beyond our dreams, have gorgeous silver-blond hair, weird Latin names, then because we’re purebloods. *nods firmly
So do I think Lucius buys into the whole pureblood mania? Well, yes, to a point, for all the reasons stated above. I highly doubt that he’s as fanatical or over zealous as Crouch Jr. or Bellatrix, that he would willingly spend time in Azkaban for his Lord, and his actions the last time around prove this. (Imperious curse, anyone? Riight…) I do think he’s a staunch supporter of Voldemort, however. Draco…well, Draco seems to go about it differently for me.
(cont'd below because this is too long.)
From: (Anonymous)
cont'd from above
I agree whole-heartedly that Draco seemed the surest about his beliefs when he was eleven in the robe shop with Harry. He’d never had reason to think any different about them, and his father must’ve been God to him then, anyway. But that was four long years ago. When I think of the times that he’s used “Mudblood” in the books, it always seems to me he’s just parading it out because he can. “That’s about the dirtiest thing he could think of,” to quote Hagrid, as painful as that was. That’s all it is to him—something to throw in Hermione’s face when he most needs to, like in the first instance he used it, in COS. Hmmm….let’s talk about that, shall we?
I’m sure the COS broom scene horse has been beaten to a fine powder, but let’s hear Angelica out. From Draco’s perspective, the scene must’ve been like this. He’s finally achieved something he’s wanted for a year, or more—a racing broom from his father, like he said in PS/SS—adoration from his teammates, his house, because Dad’s supplied top-notch brooms for them too, and a spot on the team he’s wanted since, again PS/SS. Now here comes the perfect opportunity to rub it in Potter’s face, and he [I]knows[/I] it. (“He was smirking so broadly that his eyes were reduced to slits.”) And then…enter, Hermione, butting in and insinuating that he’s bought his way into the team, and in doing so probably ruined the best Hogwarts moment for Draco, ever.
I’m going to ignore whether or not he actually did buy his way into the team, because for me it’s actually rather irrelevant. If he did buy his way onto the team, then he’s mad because she made it plain to everyone on the pitch, which was probably the way we were supposed to read the scene. If he didn’t, however, then he’s furious that she even made that assumption because he is a good flier (Harry admits this as well) and deathly afraid that that’s the assumption everyone’s going to make for all the days he’s on the team, even if he knows it isn’t true. She’s just cheapened everything that day, and Draco being Draco, eye for and eye and all that, reaches around and finds the thing he thinks will most offend [I]her[/I]. “Mudblood!”
People say that his cry of this signifies the start of the racial war in the books, and maybe that’s what it does, but for Draco it wasn’t that. I’m sure he was looking at Hermione as a person, not as a Muggleborn, at that moment. It was just as Hagrid said (and I can’t believe I just said that too) it was just the filthiest thing he could think of, not because he actually put a lot of stock into Lucius’s beliefs at that moment—very personal for him.
Draco’s usage of that word in later books mirrors the first incident. In GOF, right after he shows off his “Potter Stinks” badges to Harry, he turns around and lobs off a casual “Mudblood” at Hermione. This wasn’t personal to Hermione at this point, this was more of him adding insult to injury for [I]Harry[/I], this time. What’s the best way to get at Harry through his friends, really? Another victorious moment for Draco, and he tried to make it more so. “Mudblood!” to the rescue, again.
And the way he said it OotP—that [I]one[/I] time. It came off as powerful to me because it was so offhand, almost like he really forgot. Some of the stuff he does is comes off to me as done just because he was expected to, like he was “expected” to take points from Gryffindor because he could. If I’m being honest, if Draco didn’t take advantage of that golden opportunity to undermine Gryffindor then I would’ve run to JKR gibbering about Polyjuice Potion. (I certainly couldn’t blame him—I would’ve done so as well, in a heartbeat or quicker.) But the powerful fact that he only did it once, added to the fact that the “Remedial Potions” incident hadn’t even been made public, as far as we know, shows that perhaps he is just playing a role, doing what’s expected of him. There’s a wonderful little quote from Harry when he saw Malfoy turn up in his train compartment to show off his shiny new prefect badge, “he had expected this…”
From: (Anonymous)
cont'd from above
(*throwing herself on people’s ankles and dragging them back.) Wait, wait, hear me out. We’re all in agreement that Draco’s an innocent kid. He can’t see the thestrals, so he’s never seen death, his dad constantly (wisely, on his part) keeps him out of things by telling him as little as possible about Death Eater, Dark Arts, activities. (But who wants to bet that Lucius didn’t actually tell Draco any of what he knows? I’m sure that Draco wouldn’t think anything of eavesdropping on Dad, or eavesdropping in general. Norbert comes to mind. Especially if he feels frustrated that Dad’s not telling him things that could he could use to piss Potter off, which he does do with what little information he has.) He’s still a naïve boy, which I don’t think most people think when they speak of him, seeing him as a the spawn of evil at the age of eleven with more Dark Arts training as your average DE, like Snape in that respect. Never mind that he keeps getting hexed into oblivion at the end of every year, with lots of instances before that where he’s come close, which I’m sure would not have happened if dear old Dad’s been teaching him a few [I]Avada Kedavras[/I] around the dinner table. No, he’s naïve, all right.
That said, I’m sure the fact that people will die horrific deaths if his Dad’s “mate” comes to power hasn’t really crossed his mind. Or, rather, if it has, it’s usually followed by, “Voldy’s come to power, so yea, people’ll die…*brightening. Potter’ll probably snuff it too, so I guess I’m gonna going to win at Quidditch more.” I don’t think the concept of death and destruction has really touched him, not yet. Death is an awfully vague concept when you haven’t seen it seen it. Seen it lain out in front of you after a terrifying flash of green light, with eyes staring out at everything and nothing, a brilliant boy’s future blown out like a candle in a dark and grimy cemetery, like Harry has. It’s not “real” to him. In fact, he probably thinks of the upcoming war as “exciting”, and is all gung-ho at the fact that his side’s going to “win”. Much like a Gryffindor-Slytherin Quidditch match, only Slytherin’s going to win because Voldemort’s on their side, like they’ve got the baddest broomsticks this side of the wizarding world, with fire and turbo-chargers and plus, Potter’s not going to be there. To bring up the point of his “playing a role” again, I do think that that plays a role in what he does, however unconsciously. Of course he’s going to support the dark side, it’s what expected of him. I think of it as a game to him, all the “Mudblood!” comments and the upcoming war, and he doesn’t think of it as really all that terrible, because he can’t.
cont'd below, again.
From: (Anonymous)
cont'd AGAIN
So, our favorite blond Slytherin’s going to have to make some decisions. Join the big bad half-blood who routinely gets thwarted by some meddling kid with a disfigured forehead, because Dad did and now he’s sitting in prison, carrying on the tradition like the Malfoys we are, or sniff around after Potter like a dog who smells steak because Dad’s sitting in prison, and that half-blood sent him there?
(Just as a note, I personally don’t see him taking the latter route, because his animosity towards Harry is at an all time high. I’ve seen a lot of people take this—Lucius in Azkaban—as Malfoy’s redemption and I just don’t agree. Whoever said that Harry putting his dad in prison took the rivalry to a new level is right, and having JKR [I]not[/I] acknowledge this is a cop out. I think it’s unlikely that she will just ignore his new hatred and say that Draco’s train ambush is the end of it, he’s not going to get revenge on Harry anymore. Because I think that that is going to be his new goal in life: get Harry. More so than before, I mean. The fact that Draco actually [I]had[/I] a train ambush is very telling to me. This is a kid who will think his punishments for Harry and Co. out effectively, calculatingly. This is the kid who dressed up as a Dementor to scare Harry off a broomstick because he knew that those creatures were his biggest fear, this is the kid who spent bloody [I]hours[/I] making badges to undermine Harry, taking advantage of the school’s hostility towards him because he knew it was there, this is the kid who made up a highly effective song to sap the morale of Weasley, whom he quite cleverly knew was lacking in confidence on the pitch. This is [I]not[/I] the kid who plans random train ambushes on people who hexed him into the next week just the year before. He’s obviously not thinking rationally like he did in the past, because. He. Wants. Blood. But that is neither here nor there, so I digress. Just wanted to say it.)
one more time, cont'd down below.
From: (Anonymous)
the last one, i promise
One more quick note before I go. (Stop breathing sighs of relief, people. Honestly.) The question whether Malfoy would actually be a good Death Eater can go either way for me. I think that he’s scared of Hagrid’s “pets” is quite adorable—not to mention [I]sensible[/I]—but again, very telling. Because, well, come on. A kid who’s going to lead a class into hiding in Hagrid’s hut when a few animals get loose is not a kid who can flip off a few [I]Avada Kedavras[/I] without thought, or beat up a few Muggles because Voldemort thinks they looked at him the wrong way. I mean, I can see more of this reaction to the latter command:
Draco (hesitating): Looked at you the wrong way? You sure? Well, there’s the “red eyes” thing…you should get that checked or something…and plus, I’ve got a Quidditch game this Saturday and it won’t do if I break my hand or something. Potter might get to the Snitch first and I [I]really[/I] don’t like that. I mean, he may have “killed” and sent you into hiding for ten years, but he’s never beaten [I]you[/I] at Quidditch! Maybe you can get Crabbe and Goyle to do it?
I just think that this is not quite DE behavior, and he’s going to get Crucios cast on him like nobody’s business if he joins up with Voldemort. I can see him more of, as someone said, master manipulator at public relations, etc. You have to give him some credit, he knows what people’s weaknesses are and strikes accordingly, and most of the time effectively. He’s a leader within the Slytherins, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some people outside his house respect him, albeit grudgingly, as well.
Now, I’d love to elaborate on this, but I’m really quite pressed for time. Real life rears its big ugly head. I skimmed through some of the comments and everything is expressed so eloquently I feel like hiding my head under a rock. Thank you for giving me a place to release some of my verbal diarrhea about Draco; FAP and Guns and Handcuffs don’t quite cut it sometimes.
Thank you!
P.S sorry about the posting numerous times. The thing wouldn't let me do it all at once, it was too long.
From:
Re: the last one, i promise
I agree with your view of ancient Malfoy racism and pride. I assume Draco was brought up on tales of their history. This is one of the things I think is intersting about him and Ron--that Ron's pureblood family seems cut off from its history and living firmly in the present. this is also why I'm intrigued by stories (Res comes to mind) where Ron is tempted by the same kind of pride.
I so agree with your take on the first Mudblood scene. As wrong as it was for him to use that word it was absolutely imperative for him to shut Hermione up effectively. That was a serious moment for him. The accusation would have dogged him forever. I have lots of objective fact reasons for not thinking Draco really did buy his way onto the team, but I also think this scene is more powerful if he didn't.
I was quite delighted in Draco's point-taking scene and I thought his Mudblood joke was pretty significant. I don't think there are many Nazis who would joke that way about somebody being Jewish. It's the only time he says it in Book V. He may have been warned against it as a Prefect but I don't think he has any trouble not doing it. I think Draco does support the idea of Pureblood superiority in many ways, but I just don't think it's the driving passion for him, something he wants to sacrifice for. And I also agree with him seeing himself as playing a role with it at this point as well.
Totally agree on his not having any clear idea of the kinds of things he's pretending to support. Would he support it if Voldemort came to power? As odd as it seems, I'm not sure. A Nazi-type regime will bring out amazing cruelty in people who seemed normal and harmless. Draco, otoh, seems weird to me. I'm not saying he's secretly heroic but I'd rather not say we know for sure everything he's capable of.
Draco should be down in the struggle now that Lucius is in jail. I do think he should be more determined than ever to go after Harry...but how? So far the worst stuff he's tried have to do with detention and Quidditch. What would he turn to now? I'd really like to think he'd go to Snape, to be honest. He knows Snape dislikes Harry and he's the most powerful ally he has. I'd love it if this could lead, even if Harry doesn't know it, to a the beginning of a better path for Draco. Not a goody-goody one, but one that would protect him.
Speaking of allies, I'd feel sorry for Snape if he lost Draco at this point. If I were him I think I might fight like hell for this kid, who seems to be the one person in canon he can stand that he doesn't owe anything to. Now Lucius is gone and Draco would even need him more.
I hope you'll keep posting, btw. Would you like an lj code?
From: (Anonymous)
more thoughts
“I agree with your view of ancient Malfoy racism and pride. I assume Draco was brought up on tales of their history. This is one of the things I think is intersting about him and Ron--that Ron's pureblood family seems cut off from its history and living firmly in the present. this is also why I'm intrigued by stories (Res comes to mind) where Ron is tempted by the same kind of pride.”
I assume you’re speaking of “Resolutions” by Frances Potter here. I started to read this fic because of its popularity in the fandom, but lost interest halfway through it. However, I do remember that Ron was being tempted by an incarnate of Tom Riddle, or something along those lines. The idea of Ron being “tempted” is something I can whole-heartedly jump aboard with. To be honest, I’ve never been in love with Ron, but I found his “dark side” very intriguing in GOF and love it when this is explored in fanfiction. I suppose calling the fight between the two best friends as a revealer of Ron’s “dark side” is a little bit of a stretch, but it’s the first time in canon that Ron *really* shows how petty, jealous, and resentful he can be of Harry. Ron’s greatest desire, as shown in the Mirror of Erised, was to become great and shine above and beyond everyone he’s ever known. His greatest desire. Is it so hard to believe he might display some “Slytherin” attributes and betray Harry at some point, to a certain extent?
But that wasn’t really what you were getting at. (Am *horrible* at keeping on topic.) I’ve seen Ron display some wizarding pride, “Get away from me, werewolf!” and “They’re just not nice, giants.” (Those lines tend to make me froth at the mouth, because Ron’s the one who tends to get the most violent at Draco for the “Mudblood” comments. Eurgh. Ron, *really*.) But pureblood wizarding pride? No, not really. I don’t think we’ll ever see “proper wizarding pride” from Ron, seeing as the man who sired him is the Head of the Department for the Misuse of Muggle Artefacts Office. We don’t really know how old the Weasleys are, either. Sure, they’re purebloods, but they certainly do not seem as “old” as the Malfoys. I would think a family’s age generally has a great deal to do with how much “wizarding pride” they have…from the stories passed down from father to son about the glory days of the wizarding world, or alternatively, how Muggles burned witches at the stake, instilling a certain sense of righteous anger. It’s a fandom cliché that the Malfoys would actually have a Code of Conduct, like in the Trilogy, but it’s something I can very much imagine. I can’t imagine the Weasleys having a Code of Conduct, or anything of that sort. I can’t really imagine many similarities between the Weasleys and Malfoys; the Malfoys are velvet dress robes and formal dining rooms while the Weasleys are blue jeans and garden gnomes. Which is why Ron and Draco view the world so differently.
cont'd below.
From: (Anonymous)
con'td
You know, something Phineas said in OotP really struck me. “We Slytherins are brave, but not stupid…we always choose to save our own skin.” (Am paraphrasing.) The actions of many DEs, in other words, former Slyths, during the last war proved this, not many were willing to brave Azkaban for their Lord. In fact, many were even eager to give up names of fellow DEs so they wouldn’t have to. No honor among thieves and all that. Draco’s a Slytherin, through and through. I can hardly see him sacrificing much of anything for an insane old half-blood. Where would the motivation come from? I won’t repeat myself and my reasons for this, but he’s not Lucius, he doesn’t seem to buy into the whole pureblood thing. What you said about him and his bloodline—if he triumphs, it’s because he’s a pureblood, but if he fails, he’s just Draco—is true. I can see him being somewhat resentful, actually, of his status as a pureblood and all the expectations that come with it—not that he’d ever tell anyone this, of course. (Even if he did come to the conclusion that his father was full of horse manure and the pureblood mania was just a bunch of outdated ideas, what’s he supposed to *do* about it? Just stop with the “Mudblood!” comments and dance merrily in a field of dandelions with Hermione, Dean, and Colin? No, he can’t. He’s Draco Malfoy. He’s a bastard. He’s THE bastard. People cling to roles in the random chaos of life because they make things easier, especially when you have a limited worldview like Draco does. I truly think that if he did stop believing his father’s propaganda, I don’t think he’d show it, and certainly not to Harry.)
That said, the only thing he seems to have a “passion” for is beating Harry at something, anything. And I’m not just speaking as an H/D “shipper” here. I hardly think the same sort of passion would go into being a DE for Voldemort. What’s going to spur him on? Not much. Resentful wizarding pride and fatherly respect don’t take you very far at all. (Incidentally, and I know this isn’t the time or place for this, but knowing Draco’s passions or lack thereof, I really wonder what Draco would see in the Mirror of Erised. I can’t even begin to speculate on this.)
Of course, now this has changed since Lucius is in Azkaban. Actually, in addition to what you said about Draco going to Snape for help in revenge against Harry, I also think it would be logical to go to Voldemort. Again, Draco’s a Slytherin, and using any means to achieve his ends would include “using” Voldemort. If Voldemort helps him exact revenge on Potter, so be it. Plus, joining up with the Dark Lord is expected of him, right?
cont'd below
From: (Anonymous)
and the last one...
I think it’s pretty evident from the scene directly preceding “Snape’s Worst Memory” that Snape and Draco have some sort of relationship. I would go as far to say that it’s a close one—I’ve never seen Snape refer to any student by their first name before, and I found it rather adorable. I also counted four “sirs” from Draco, which made me, rather embarrassingly, hug myself with glee. I would prefer not to think that they have a relationship because it’s useful and beneficial to both of them; Draco because Snape is his HoH and Potions teacher and he wants good marks, Snape because Draco is Lucius’s son and he doesn’t want to “piss off” the old man, along with some standard reasons—wants to be in with the DEs, doesn’t want to invoke suspiscion, etc, etc. To be honest, I can see how this relationship would start out that way, but I can also see it growing into a genuine relationship with respect from both sides, over time. The other interactions between them have been in the classroom in front of Potter and about thirty other students, so as to be expected, Draco is showing off, but in this scene Draco seems stripped of that and is just showing, normal, everyday respect for Snape, as per usual. I use the word “respect” a lot because that’s seems to be the basis of their relationship, I hardly think they seem the type to gab about their lives over popcorn and butterbeer, or even have the same relaxed sort of relationship that Harry seemed to have with Lupin. A close relationship, but one with boundaries and Things You Do Not Do as well. It may sound like it, but I’m not speaking as a Draco/Snape shipper when I say I want to see more of their relationship, more interactions with just Draco, Snape and no one else. If anything, I want to see Draco sincerely call someone “sir” again. :)
Their relationship fills me with hope, but with dread as well. As you said, Draco might turn to Snape for help with Harry, and that might lead him on a better path, but at the same time, what’s going to happen when Draco turns to Snape—and FINDS OUT SNAPE IS A DE SPY? I think a lot of trust will be lost there, because I certainly don’t think Draco knows already. What little information Draco has, this is not among it. Lucius would never have told Draco about Snape’s status if he did know, and I hope that he wouldn’t have said within Draco's earshot. On the subject of trust, I wonder how Draco’s going to feel if he finds out Snape had been lying to him about the “Remedial Potions” thing? I would think another basis of their relationship was an intense hatred of Potter, and Draco would feel that they were “in it together”. Snape hadn’t only been lying to him, he had been lying to him ‘with Potter’. Draco being Draco, Harry being Harry, once Draco finds this out, he’s really going to feel betrayed. Betrayed by the one man who could’ve really helped him, one of his possible chances for “redemption”, one of the only adults he’d felt a real respect for. Snape could really have something with Draco, if he doesn’t blow it. If his trust for Snape goes, then so does a lot of my hope for Draco’s redemption.
Interesting how you seem to be looking at the Draco/Snape relationship from the Snape POV (what’s going to happen to *Snape?*), whereas it’s Draco for me. I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on how Draco would feel once he finds all of Snape’s dirty secrets. And of Ron, actually. One thing that seems to be constant for me is I seem to look at everything from Draco’s POV. I love, love Draco, and I wonder sometimes if that adversely affects my opinion of Ron, or other characters Draco hates. Is it the same for you?
Draco seems to be bleeding into my brain…my conscience sounds a lot like his nowadays. The other day I caught myself calling my sister fat, smelly and a Mudblood. I’m quite…morbidly afraid.
--angelica
P.S There’s an interesting thread on FAP about Fanon Draco. Have you seen it?
P.P.S Does having a lj code mean I have to have an actual livejournal? If it doesn’t, I’d love to have one, if the offer still stands. If I do have to have an lj, then I’m quite happy just being the creepy anonymous user. (*ominous music.)
From:
Re: and the last one...
Re: The Weasleys, I think they are somewhat "old" in that Draco not only knows who they are but is distantly related to them according to Sirius. Even Harry identifies him as being from one of those "old wizarding families" when he meets him on the train. They don't have the same kind of pride as the Malfoys but they do have pride in Gryffindor.
This is part of why I think it would be more interesting for Ron to be the one tempted by the whole idea of Pureblood pride. It seems like if you were really trying to study why kids get into these things Ron would be the perfect candidate: he wants to be special and often feels like the world is just stacked against him. I don't think Ron would do this in canon, but it would be easy to see how a son in that family could turn against Arthur's own beliefs, much as Percy did. I think the Weasleys are at their most interesting when they show how unhappy they are with their position in society.
We've been having another really interesting discussion over in
I don't think either boy forgot his humiliation that day. Draco hates Ron for it and has probably watched the friendship closely for years because of it, delighting in any friction he senses. Ron, imo, must remember that Harry's rejection of Draco was, in part, a charity to him.
One of the things that frustrates me about Draco in general is how, imo, he really doesn't act like an aristocrat. In fact, in each book he seems to act more and more like the social-climbing Dursleys which is totally wrong. Part of the problem is he's supposed to be a blueblood yet all the things one would envy about that are taken away--only in fanon does Draco have any class or culture or taste. Nobody wants to be his friend, so he can't really exclude anyone in that cutting rich-boy way. Usually it's only Ron that makes him seem believeable that way. Ron's family is definitely blue jeans and garden gnomes, but it doesn't stop Ron from being ashamed that his dress robes don't fit.
I have SO had that same thoughts about Draco and Snape that you have--particularly worrying what Draco's reaction would be upon discovering that Snape is Harry's protector and those lessons were not about Remedial Potions but Super Sekret Powers Draco would probably love to learn. This is part of what makes me angry at Dumbledore in that book--in pairing the two of them he not only twists the knife for Snape (not that this excuses him not doing the job anyway), makes it difficult for Harry and, imo, threatens Snape's relationship with Draco as well. Not that Dumbledore seems to care about Draco much, but this would be a serious blow to him.
You're totally right that Voldemort would be another obvious person for Draco to go to for help against Harry. JKR might do that in the next book, but as of now it just seems OOC for Draco. He's afraid of Voldemort. Would he overcome that fear for revenge against Harry? I'm not sure. I definitely think he'd do it if he thought he could do it safely, but it just seems it'd be hard for Draco to even go about it. He's never had any contact with Voldemort before; he's always been strictly Hogwarts-confined. It seems like knowingly going to Voldemort would go against the whole "Slytherins are brave but not stupid" idea, yet if someone approached him he could be an easy dupe.
Re: and the last one...
From:Re: and the last one...
From:From: (Anonymous)
me again
I had the T.V on in the background yesterday while I was scurrying around trying to get about eight things done at the same time, and unbeknownst to me, it was on an episode of “Will and Grace.” In the middle of frantically searching for a friend’s number, I heard Grace’s character say, “I wish…I wish I knew some voodoo so I could find a spell to turn her into a *ferret*!
That cheered me up a little bit…some writer on Will and Grace is a Harry Potter fan, I tell you…
Anyways, quite terrifyingly, I have more thoughts:
“They don't have the same kind of pride as the Malfoys but they do have pride in Gryffindor.”
The Weasleys do have Gryffindor pride, don’t they? That’s an interesting way to put it…the same way the Malfoys have Slytherin pride. The Weasleys have all been in Gryffindor the same way the Malfoys have all been in Slytherin. I guess there’s a way of translating their Gryff pride into some sort of old wizarding pride. And I suppose I agree that the Weasleys are an “old” family, but in the same way the Malfoys are? Not a chance.
Now, I don’t like Ron, so discussions about him have never really interested me much. (read: bored me to death.) But I can see your point, I can see Ron getting into the sort of things people accuse Malfoy of, for the logical reasons you stated. To turn things around and look at things from Draco’s POV as I always do, it’s actually a lot more believable at this point for Ron to be a junior DE than it is for Draco. The need for validation, respect and feeling you can’t beat fate measure higher against reasons like a weird sense of duty and fatherly respect, for me.
“We've been having another really interesting discussion over in black dog’s journal that’s gone all over the place but touched on the Harry/Ron friendship and how it seemed cooler in OotP.”
While there was a lack of Ron/Harry in OotP (not in a shippy sense) there was a lot of Harry/Hermione. OotP did a lot for their friendship, and for the first time I kind of got Harry/Hermione (*now* in a shippy sense) vibes. But if you look at the previous books, it was Harry/Hermione together at the end of PS after Ron sacrificed himself during the chess game, it was Ron/Harry at the end of COS, with the acromantula and down in tunnel right before the Chamber, again Harry/Hermione at the end of POA with the time turner and Sirius’s rescue mission. But breaking the trend of it being H/H, then R/H, H/H, there was a lot of Harry/Hermione in GOF, because of Ron and Harry’s fight. While the two boys seemed to bond together in disapproval of Hermione’s SPEW, it doesn’t compare to the time Harry spent just being with Hermione before the First Task. Then, in OotP, it was only Harry and Hermione who went into the forest with Umbridge for the encounter with the centaurs. Incidentally, they were together a lot in the DoM, too. It *was* Hermione’s idea to start the DA, and her idea as well for the Quibbler interview. While Ron is very much Harry’s best friend, brother, (heteorosexual) life partner in every way (cue manly beats to the chest and Quidditch victory straight guy hugs with thumps on the back) I think there’s a strong bond being made with Hermione over the past few books as well.
cont'd
From: (Anonymous)
and again
Really? I’m going to try and find black dog’s entry right after this. Ron’s replacement? That’s interesting, I had never thought of that. Harry really seemed to break out of the Trio and find friends in other houses in OotP, it was a great book for inter-house interactions. It was the first book that mentioned people crossing the Great Hall to visit students from other houses, the first for relationships between people from other houses (Ginny/Micheal Corner, Harry/Cho), and we finally find out where the Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw dorms are. I’m musing over that comment by BD, but I think I’m going to disagree until I hear his reasons for that. Simply because I find it impossible to find a replacement for Ron for Harry that isn’t Hermione, and even then I’m a little “iffy” on that. Harry’s friendship with Hermione is strong in itself, but it’s not the same as his with Ron. In GOF, when they were fighting, Harry really missed Ron…”there was a lot less laughing, and more time spent in the library when your best friend was Hermione.” Zach could be fun as Harry’s friend, they would bicker much like Ron and Hermione do, and Zach would challenge Harry’s ideas instead of blindly following him like Hermione and Ron tend to do, at times. But a Harry/Zach relationship wouldn’t exist on the same level as Harry/Ron. I don’t like the guy much, but he was Harry’s first friend, and will remain Harry’s last friend, in the end.
“I think Draco always sort of hangs as a specter over that friendship for Ron…
Ron, imo, must remember that Harry's rejection of Draco was, in part, a charity to him.”
So well put. I had never thought of Harry’s rejection of Draco from Ron’s point of view—well, I hardly ever think of Ron. I can see how he would view it as a charity, how he now “owes” Harry for picking Draco over him. I pretty much read the scene as a signifier of Harry’s goodness, picking the poor loser over the rich “bully” (bully? Ha! *derisive snorts all around) because Harry’s not “superficial”. From Ron’s POV…quite interesting. But I have thought of how Draco must’ve felt, being rejected over a Weasley. You know, knife, heart, twist, twist, in a very “But I’m a *Malfoy*!” sort of way. He *would* watch Harry and Ron over the years, feeling somewhat resentful and jealous, because firstly, Harry rejected him, (twice), and secondly, I truly think Draco really wanted Harry as his friend.
“One of the things that frustrates me about Draco in general is how, imo, he really doesn't act like an aristocrat.”
Draco to Ron, OotP: “Do you think if you saw someone snuff it, you’d be able to see the Quaffle better?” This is one of “Draco as an aristocrat” lines in OotP that didn’t sit well with me. The phrasing, in particular…snuff it? *makes face. I don’t think JK’s met very many aristocrats, and therefore has no idea what they sound like, especially added to the fact that the Malfoys are “old” and the WW is stuck a hundred years behind the Muggle one, anyway. You could put forth the opinion that the Malfoys are *so* rich and *so* well-connected that they couldn’t be arsed with appearances, but that doesn’t sit well with me, either. (Maybe I’m coming down with something?) Lucius Malfoy seems like the kind of guy who enjoys *reminding* others that he’s more rich and blue-blooded than he has any right to be, and conducts himself in such a manner. (In COS, “I’ll expect you at the *Manor* tomorrow…) Then you have Draco…snuff it…I don’t know, it’s not very consistent. You’re right—only in fanon does Draco have culture, class or taste—all the things earmarking an aristocrat.
From: (Anonymous)
here's to hoping that this is the last one
“I can see very bad things happening if Draco feels betrayed by Snape, but it also seems like Snape should know this and take steps to prevent it. If Draco found out Snape was working with Harry he could probably easily turn the house against him, tell them all they'd been betrayed by Hogwarts AGAIN, tricked into trusting this guy. Then they'd be open for trouble.”
Ooo. Open for “trouble.” I can practically hear a door creaking, and see a bony finger beckoning…I think people tend to underestimate exactly how much influence Draco has in the Slytherin house. “Holding court” and all. If Draco spread through the Slytherins (and we have proof that they listen to his impressions and he has a gift at drawing a crowd) that their HoH was consorting with a Gryffindor—Potter, no less, I think you’d find a lot of hurt kids. The one adult at Hogwarts they respected, you know, their HoH, Potions teacher, the only one who didn’t say “Slytherin” without mentally adding “Stinkin’” before it. There’s a lot at stake with the Snape/Draco relationship, affecting not just Draco, but all of Slytherin. Maybe the Slyths would start to think that maybe there is someone out there they can trust, but he *isn’t* at Hogwarts…
Then again, Snape’s also a smart guy. Possibly he would foresee this happening and prepare himself. I like to think he thinks more of his relationship with Draco and prepared something to somehow explain himself. But you bring up an interesting point with Draco, wouldn’t he like to learn Occlumency? This is useful, because he couldn’t for the life of him hide his feelings, like in Umbridge’s office at the end of OotP. Well, it’s not like Snape can either—I mean, he threw a JAR OF DEAD COCKROACHES at Harry after the Pensieve scene. (I’m going to use this opportunity to bring up something that’s been bugging me for a little while about Occlumency and Legilimency. If Dumbledore is such an accomplished Legilimens and can tell when someone’s lying to him, how come he never knew about Quirrell and the fact that Voldemort was sticking out of the back of his head? Or Moody the Imposter? Or way back when, Tom Riddle and the Chamber of Secrets? Argh. Presumably we don’t know everything about those two practices yet, but still. Argh. And more argh.)
Hmmm….I think that’s all for now. Heesh, this was intended to be short. I can never just stop typing.
But one more note:
I’ve decided to take the bull by the balls and ask someone for an lj code. I still don’t want an actual livejournal (*looks lazy) but damnit, being a creepy anonymous lurker (*ominous music) is tiring sometimes. And I’m running out of “ominous music” to play. Seriously, having a livejournal sounds easy to set up, but so much *work*, updating. I write posts and other fandom stuff sporadically during the day, mostly during tech class and babysitting the little brats, and having an lj would mean more time and stuff. Not for me. (Yes, tech class. As is evident from my writing, I’m sixteen.) So, if the offer still stands, you can email me a code at saintgelatron@hotmail.com. Am grabbing that bull’s balls, alright.
From: (Anonymous)
*sigh. It wasn't...the last one, i mean...
“It's kind of scary how alike we think.:-)”
You know, reading the above, you’re probably more than “kind of scared” that you think a lot of the same things as a pierced sixteen year old who’s not really very intelligent at all. Ha. And ha.
So, anyway, not to betray my generation or anything, I’m off to a party to get drunk and fool around with friends, if for no other reason than we’re sixteen, it’s Friday, and we can. Or because they never really seem to take my suggestions of, “Let’s talk about Harry Potter!” very well at all.
“You are a weirdo *LOL*”
*eyes gleam madly.
--angelica
From:
Re: *sigh. It wasn't...the last one, i mean...
In my experience, being rich means that you put people down by looking down on them. Like, you talk to the person as if they're your maid. As Draco and his friends got older they should become better at "accidentally" pointing out what other kids are lacking without ever EVER coming out and saying, "I've got loads of money and you've got non. HA HA HA!" Everytime Draco does that he marks himself as non-upper class. Plus he and Pansy seriously sound like they should be hanging out on a streetcorner hooting at toffs half the time. Pansy's a fifteen year old blueblood, allegedly, so why does she screech like a tough girl on the subway? Like when she comes up to Harry and basically tells him he's "going down" in Quidditch? WTF? It's ridiculous.
Then there's the age thing, which is equally dumb. As you said, why does Draco not seem aware of sex at all? Dudley's comment was the first accurately crude 15-year-old-boy insult ever. As I think I've said before, whenever I read the bitchslap scene I practically hear Draco's real comeback in my head (where he suggests Hermione go make Hagrid feel better in some obscene way). Half the time you could just lift Draco's comebacks from PS and stick them into OotP. He hasn't changed at all.
BD said in his journal that one is rarely friends with the same people at 11 that they are at 15 and that's true, but I'd say it's even more true that you're mortal enemies with the same people at 15 that you were at 11. We've yet to see exactly what kind of teenager Draco is because he hasn't grown. He's still got the exact same concerns as he did at 11 and that's just silly.
Sometimes with Harry and Hermione I feel like JKR just finds it easier to put Hermione with him in scenes because she's more of an author insertion. She gives him information and is always focused on the plot. Ron, to me, is more of just a regular friend so to write him and Harry together means they have to just talk about boy stuff. In my experience in high school as much as my guy friends liked hanging out with me I was never on the same level of intimacy as they had with each other. It's like the bit you quoted from GoF--you spend a lot of time in the library when Hermione's your best friend.
Concerning Evil!Ron, I just think he'd be the obvious candidate if JKR wanted to write about the nature or lure of evil--which she doesn't really seem to want to write about. There's nothing particularly interesting about Draco being on that side. He announced it in his first scene so it's no big deal for him to repeat it in Book 7. He's just been told this stuff. Even if he never lets go of his beliefs we still know where they came from: his upbringing.
Ron, to me, is a much more obvious candidate to be tempted to the dark side. He gets overlooked a lot, so Voldemort would offer him power. Also, in some ways he's the reverse Draco. Where Draco fans (at least me) might find it satisfying to have Draco surprise Harry et al. by being tempted by good, thus showing them how he's been underestimated, it might be satisfying to do the same thing by doing something bad. Like saying, "You always just thought you could count on me while brushing me off. Mwahahaha!" It's more about the surprising Harry and Hermione (who know everything) than wanting to see Ron literally be evil.
I do hope Snape realizes the dangerous line he could cross with Draco re: the Slytherins because it does seem like Draco has a lot of power in the house and that he probably puts in good words for Snape there as well. Snape's already got a lot on his plate with classes and the Order, and I'd worry what was going on in his house when he wasn't on top of it. I can easily see Draco painfully realizing Snape's "on the other side" and not showing it to Snape, instead just instructing the Slytherins not to trust him. Snape might not realize what was going on until it was too late if he was preoccupied.
Hope you had a good time on Friday! I am e-mailing you a code!:-)
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
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From:From:
shiny new lj *beams
Just dropping in to say thanks for the lj code. Not a creepy anonymous user anymore! Created one today. And lo and behold, I've decided not to have it exist just for the friends list--I'm actually going to use it for its original purpose, an online diary. *shrug. I do change my mind sometimes.
Anyway, thanks also for humoring me and having a conversation with my ever-so rambly lengthy mutliple comments. I mean, you got sense out of it! *looks appalled.
Thanks bunches.
P.S Do you mind ever so much if I friend you? *big puppy dog eyes.
From:
Re: shiny new lj *beams
Excellent! Come to the dark side...join us...join us!
You are quite welcome to friend me! The more Draco-lovers the better!