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Well, I've decided to inflict my huge ramblings about ROTK just in general upon this journal as well. I'll probably continue picking at it in bits and pieces, but this is just a mad ramble in response to everything.
PJ&Co had me at the word go.
The three hunters:
I liked the Dead Army, surprisingly. I thought this was basically what it would look like. In fact, thinking back, I think I appreciated that PJ went for the Frighteners type look instead of working hard to make more of an Army of Darkness type thing. I found the green light very effective. Also, nobody gets out of a boat like Aragorn. He puts even Johnny Depp to shame.
During the end credits two character portraits got applause: Gollum's and...Gimli's. In TTT I sometimes thought Gimli's jokes got a bit much but here I thought he was right on all the time. This is a guy you would want to go into battle with.
Arwen's fate tied to the ring...erm, WTF? I think that line should have ended up on the cutting room floor. Aragorn truly doesn't need that kind of motivation. Coals to Newcastle, really, and Aragorn seemed to think so too. That said, I thought her choice scene with her hands growing cold was quite nice. I liked the way it showed she hadn't actually chosen until that moment (also I thought her eyes turned brown there but they seemed to be blue again later). I liked her vision too--some people feel this is ridiculous, saying that a child changed her mind, but I thought it was much more about an elf understanding mortal immortality for the first time. Of course all Elrond saw was death for her. Mortals have a very different understanding of children because of our mortality and that's what I thought Arwen was understanding there.
Pippin's Story
Billy Boyd, you're incredible and I love you. His scenes with Gandalf were so wonderful, especially the one where they talk about death. One of the things these movies did surprisingly well, imo, was how it did manage to make me feel real connections between characters--Gandalf and Pippin being a great example.
Denethor...well, I had no problem with him just being crazy from Boromir's death and not the Palantir. I understood, I thought, what was going on with him. He had no hope and was going to make sure the world became the way he saw it. Faramir really didn't see him at his craziest, though, so I could handle his suicide mission.
I had more problems with Gandalf's knocking him around. There were cheers when he knocked him out the first time which I did not think was a good thing. It was too Looney Tunes for me, sort of like when Bugs Bunny would sneak up behind Hitler and bop him. I think Gandalf could have found a more dignified way to take control. Pippin's pulling Faramir off the fire was wonderful. I didn't think Gandalf killed Denethor on purpose, as I recall. His dive over the cliff was a little ridiculous--could anybody run that fire when they were on fire?? I think it could have been done better. But that eating scene with Pippin singing during the charge was incredible. I think some people had a problem with the eating noises but I thought that was the point--you were supposed to see Pippin's song and Faramir's ride as this sublime thing rudely interupted by Denethor's gluttony.
I loved Pippin's acting during the Palantir scene, though the crazy fit was out of place for me. His good-bye to Merry was so so good. Dom and Billy really did it in this movie! Merry's run to the tower: perfect. I was laughing (silently) with joy during the beacon lighting and then realized, to my surprise, I was also crying. This movie filled me with great joy on more than one occasion.
Merry's story:
I was so pleasantly surprised by the bonds I saw in these scenes between Merry and Eowyn and Eowyn and Theoden (dare I hope for Merry and Theoden in the EE???). I loved Eowyn in general in this movie. Merry really seemed like a little brother to her with Eowyn the coolest big sister ever--strong, loving and vulnerable. I especially liked her line about Merry fighting for those people he loved. It really inspired respect for both her and Merry, imo. Merry's line to Pippin after he finds him was I know something I've heard with regards to WW1 soldiers whose friends found them wounded on the battlefield. "I knew you'd find me," is like the highest thing one soldier could say to another.
And then Eowyn and Theoden--that repitition of "I know your face. Eowyn," really hit me hard and makes me want to go back and watch the TTT scenes again immediately. It hinted at such a long, loving life between the two of them. That first time he said it it seemed like Theoden was just recognizing a face he hadn't recognized in a while, but then it became clear Eowyn's face was probably a beacon to him in life and had been for years. Like an angel, if you follow me, who led him out of darkness and here leads him gently towards death. Oh, and Bernard Hill's double-take when he sees her is one of the best little moments in the whole trilogy, seriously competing with Pippin's Treebeard doubletake.
Frodo and Sam
What to say? I loved it. I was very worried about changes, particularly the sending home of Sam, but once the movie started I was right there with them, back with the movie versions and leaving the book aside. I could see two very clear, different arcs for the Trio in TTT and ROTK. Frodo was no longer struggling with the same things he was in TTT. He, Gollum and Sam all had raised stakes in this one. Here I was thinking Frodo was sending Sam home over food, but instead I thought that scene played all the tensions there in canon just fine. Nobody betrayed anybody (except Gollum who betrayed everyone), Gollum just encouraged both hobbit's weaknesses and paranoia. Sam was too emotional and protective and played right into Gollum's hands because of it. Frodo had gotten more involved with the ring and Gollum's whisper at just the right moment (when he's exhausted after climbing the stairs) was believeable for me, first commisserating over the burden Sam can't understand, then planting the seed that Sam wants it.
And Sam did want it, for just the reasons he did it the book. He sees Frodo struggling, he's frustrated because he can't fulfil the role appointed to him (and self-appointed as well) of doing for him. He sees Frodo faltering, thinks it's up to him to keep him from doing the wrong thing. So he offers to carry the ring, which he does in the book (though in the book he only does so after he's worn it and tempted by it). Frodo had already had his "just like Gollum" moments in TTT so I thought he could be played calmer here without us forgetting how enthralled to the ring he was himself. It gave Sam a better foil to play against as he struggled with his own temptation.
I didn't have a problem with Sam leaving because I thought he was just dazed and did what Frodo said because it was the first instinct. I didn't think he was actually going home even as he went down the stairs. More likely he'd just try to find Faramir and offer his services or ask for help, imo. Seeing the bread focused everything for him just as being left alone in the tunnel focused Frodo's. They both realized how Gollum had used them against themselves. Once they saw that I thought they were stronger than ever. Sam knew what to do, and Frodo could fight for his own survival. I loved Frodo's lighting the phial and his fight with Shelob. The shot of her hovering above him gave me serious willies (and I've seen a lot of big spiders in movies) and the wrapping up moment was also freaky and georgeous. When Gollum disappeared it reminded me of the way Gollum would speak to himself as if there were two, then one would just be an illusion. I felt like Frodo was being led into his own darkness in the tunnel, in the end he got himself there. It wasn't all Gollum. His little "Sam," was great. So yeah, I thought both of them had their moment when they gave in to despair and then got themselves back on track for the other's sakes and that's Frodo and Sam for me.
Mount Doom I also thought was great, though I kind of wish Frodo didn't have to struggle through his lines about not recalling the taste of food so I could hear them better. Luckily he got stronger by the end and I loved his fear over the wheel of fire. Floating!Gollum looked weird but was probably accurate. I definitely didn't mind Frodo fighting with Gollum again since the ring was still destroyed by accident. I also didn't mind the ring not melting immediately because it's a magic ring and Frodo had to "let it go" before it could sink completely. It's been one of the biggest characters in the story--it deserved a slow death scene.
Frodo in general I loved though as usual I think his struggle and Elijah's performace will pass a lot of people by. What many people see as his seeming weak is not weak at all, imo. For intance, more than once he has to be literally fighting with his own body, which makes him look like he's staggering, like outside Minas Morgul. The ring's pulling him one way and he's fighting to go another, but of course it looks like he's just out of control. Not an easy thing to watch but then, why should it be? I particularly loved his last steps up Mt. Doom when he was waving away the eye--I hadn't dared hope we'd get that and we did! I'm surprised people didn't like the spotlight eye of doom; to me it always seemed like this was obviously what it would be like.
Oh, and Frodo's "Gandalf?" was really well-said, I thought. Poor hobbit didn't know he was alive! The Wizard of Oz reunion made me giggle but in a good way. I was just happy. I wish we'd seen more of Frodo's illness, but that's just probably because it's important to me. The scene at the Green Dragon was very poignant, imo, with the hobbits just unable to be that carefree in those circumstances. It was particularly sad because Merry and Pippin had referenced the Green Dragon so often as "home." The Grey Havens was wonderful, imo. I loved Frodo's pale, sad and wise demeanor through the whole thing while the others were crying. Merry in particular looked like he'd had his heart ripped out, and as I've always loved the canon friendship of Frodo and Merry that made me happy. I wouldn't have cut a single hug. And Frodo's final rosy cheeked smile? Yay. I haven't specifically said much about Sean Astin, but this is mostly because it's self-evident how incredible he was. His temptation scene, imo, was particularly well-done. I hated the ring for causing pain in even Sam, turning even his loving impulses sour, and so glad this scene wasn't breezed over so people could ignore it like happens so often in the books. Sam somehow seemed older to me in the movie than he does in canon. Like a good man up against something beyond his capabilities that he ultimately overcomes.
The Multiple Endings
I could see the problem, but at the same time I didn't think it was really over until we saw them. If I was going to cut one I might think the final one with Sam, but then as I said I don't think it would really feel over without it. It's the start of the new story, and that's the end. I do wish some of the blackouts were a little shorter, perhaps, but the endings really didn't feel long to me. Bowing to the hobbits was just incredible--what a great line from Aragorn. What a classy guy. And he looks great jumping out of a boat.
Um, so that's me babbling for a long time and probably still forgetting a lot.
PJ&Co had me at the word go.
The three hunters:
I liked the Dead Army, surprisingly. I thought this was basically what it would look like. In fact, thinking back, I think I appreciated that PJ went for the Frighteners type look instead of working hard to make more of an Army of Darkness type thing. I found the green light very effective. Also, nobody gets out of a boat like Aragorn. He puts even Johnny Depp to shame.
During the end credits two character portraits got applause: Gollum's and...Gimli's. In TTT I sometimes thought Gimli's jokes got a bit much but here I thought he was right on all the time. This is a guy you would want to go into battle with.
Arwen's fate tied to the ring...erm, WTF? I think that line should have ended up on the cutting room floor. Aragorn truly doesn't need that kind of motivation. Coals to Newcastle, really, and Aragorn seemed to think so too. That said, I thought her choice scene with her hands growing cold was quite nice. I liked the way it showed she hadn't actually chosen until that moment (also I thought her eyes turned brown there but they seemed to be blue again later). I liked her vision too--some people feel this is ridiculous, saying that a child changed her mind, but I thought it was much more about an elf understanding mortal immortality for the first time. Of course all Elrond saw was death for her. Mortals have a very different understanding of children because of our mortality and that's what I thought Arwen was understanding there.
Pippin's Story
Billy Boyd, you're incredible and I love you. His scenes with Gandalf were so wonderful, especially the one where they talk about death. One of the things these movies did surprisingly well, imo, was how it did manage to make me feel real connections between characters--Gandalf and Pippin being a great example.
Denethor...well, I had no problem with him just being crazy from Boromir's death and not the Palantir. I understood, I thought, what was going on with him. He had no hope and was going to make sure the world became the way he saw it. Faramir really didn't see him at his craziest, though, so I could handle his suicide mission.
I had more problems with Gandalf's knocking him around. There were cheers when he knocked him out the first time which I did not think was a good thing. It was too Looney Tunes for me, sort of like when Bugs Bunny would sneak up behind Hitler and bop him. I think Gandalf could have found a more dignified way to take control. Pippin's pulling Faramir off the fire was wonderful. I didn't think Gandalf killed Denethor on purpose, as I recall. His dive over the cliff was a little ridiculous--could anybody run that fire when they were on fire?? I think it could have been done better. But that eating scene with Pippin singing during the charge was incredible. I think some people had a problem with the eating noises but I thought that was the point--you were supposed to see Pippin's song and Faramir's ride as this sublime thing rudely interupted by Denethor's gluttony.
I loved Pippin's acting during the Palantir scene, though the crazy fit was out of place for me. His good-bye to Merry was so so good. Dom and Billy really did it in this movie! Merry's run to the tower: perfect. I was laughing (silently) with joy during the beacon lighting and then realized, to my surprise, I was also crying. This movie filled me with great joy on more than one occasion.
Merry's story:
I was so pleasantly surprised by the bonds I saw in these scenes between Merry and Eowyn and Eowyn and Theoden (dare I hope for Merry and Theoden in the EE???). I loved Eowyn in general in this movie. Merry really seemed like a little brother to her with Eowyn the coolest big sister ever--strong, loving and vulnerable. I especially liked her line about Merry fighting for those people he loved. It really inspired respect for both her and Merry, imo. Merry's line to Pippin after he finds him was I know something I've heard with regards to WW1 soldiers whose friends found them wounded on the battlefield. "I knew you'd find me," is like the highest thing one soldier could say to another.
And then Eowyn and Theoden--that repitition of "I know your face. Eowyn," really hit me hard and makes me want to go back and watch the TTT scenes again immediately. It hinted at such a long, loving life between the two of them. That first time he said it it seemed like Theoden was just recognizing a face he hadn't recognized in a while, but then it became clear Eowyn's face was probably a beacon to him in life and had been for years. Like an angel, if you follow me, who led him out of darkness and here leads him gently towards death. Oh, and Bernard Hill's double-take when he sees her is one of the best little moments in the whole trilogy, seriously competing with Pippin's Treebeard doubletake.
Frodo and Sam
What to say? I loved it. I was very worried about changes, particularly the sending home of Sam, but once the movie started I was right there with them, back with the movie versions and leaving the book aside. I could see two very clear, different arcs for the Trio in TTT and ROTK. Frodo was no longer struggling with the same things he was in TTT. He, Gollum and Sam all had raised stakes in this one. Here I was thinking Frodo was sending Sam home over food, but instead I thought that scene played all the tensions there in canon just fine. Nobody betrayed anybody (except Gollum who betrayed everyone), Gollum just encouraged both hobbit's weaknesses and paranoia. Sam was too emotional and protective and played right into Gollum's hands because of it. Frodo had gotten more involved with the ring and Gollum's whisper at just the right moment (when he's exhausted after climbing the stairs) was believeable for me, first commisserating over the burden Sam can't understand, then planting the seed that Sam wants it.
And Sam did want it, for just the reasons he did it the book. He sees Frodo struggling, he's frustrated because he can't fulfil the role appointed to him (and self-appointed as well) of doing for him. He sees Frodo faltering, thinks it's up to him to keep him from doing the wrong thing. So he offers to carry the ring, which he does in the book (though in the book he only does so after he's worn it and tempted by it). Frodo had already had his "just like Gollum" moments in TTT so I thought he could be played calmer here without us forgetting how enthralled to the ring he was himself. It gave Sam a better foil to play against as he struggled with his own temptation.
I didn't have a problem with Sam leaving because I thought he was just dazed and did what Frodo said because it was the first instinct. I didn't think he was actually going home even as he went down the stairs. More likely he'd just try to find Faramir and offer his services or ask for help, imo. Seeing the bread focused everything for him just as being left alone in the tunnel focused Frodo's. They both realized how Gollum had used them against themselves. Once they saw that I thought they were stronger than ever. Sam knew what to do, and Frodo could fight for his own survival. I loved Frodo's lighting the phial and his fight with Shelob. The shot of her hovering above him gave me serious willies (and I've seen a lot of big spiders in movies) and the wrapping up moment was also freaky and georgeous. When Gollum disappeared it reminded me of the way Gollum would speak to himself as if there were two, then one would just be an illusion. I felt like Frodo was being led into his own darkness in the tunnel, in the end he got himself there. It wasn't all Gollum. His little "Sam," was great. So yeah, I thought both of them had their moment when they gave in to despair and then got themselves back on track for the other's sakes and that's Frodo and Sam for me.
Mount Doom I also thought was great, though I kind of wish Frodo didn't have to struggle through his lines about not recalling the taste of food so I could hear them better. Luckily he got stronger by the end and I loved his fear over the wheel of fire. Floating!Gollum looked weird but was probably accurate. I definitely didn't mind Frodo fighting with Gollum again since the ring was still destroyed by accident. I also didn't mind the ring not melting immediately because it's a magic ring and Frodo had to "let it go" before it could sink completely. It's been one of the biggest characters in the story--it deserved a slow death scene.
Frodo in general I loved though as usual I think his struggle and Elijah's performace will pass a lot of people by. What many people see as his seeming weak is not weak at all, imo. For intance, more than once he has to be literally fighting with his own body, which makes him look like he's staggering, like outside Minas Morgul. The ring's pulling him one way and he's fighting to go another, but of course it looks like he's just out of control. Not an easy thing to watch but then, why should it be? I particularly loved his last steps up Mt. Doom when he was waving away the eye--I hadn't dared hope we'd get that and we did! I'm surprised people didn't like the spotlight eye of doom; to me it always seemed like this was obviously what it would be like.
Oh, and Frodo's "Gandalf?" was really well-said, I thought. Poor hobbit didn't know he was alive! The Wizard of Oz reunion made me giggle but in a good way. I was just happy. I wish we'd seen more of Frodo's illness, but that's just probably because it's important to me. The scene at the Green Dragon was very poignant, imo, with the hobbits just unable to be that carefree in those circumstances. It was particularly sad because Merry and Pippin had referenced the Green Dragon so often as "home." The Grey Havens was wonderful, imo. I loved Frodo's pale, sad and wise demeanor through the whole thing while the others were crying. Merry in particular looked like he'd had his heart ripped out, and as I've always loved the canon friendship of Frodo and Merry that made me happy. I wouldn't have cut a single hug. And Frodo's final rosy cheeked smile? Yay. I haven't specifically said much about Sean Astin, but this is mostly because it's self-evident how incredible he was. His temptation scene, imo, was particularly well-done. I hated the ring for causing pain in even Sam, turning even his loving impulses sour, and so glad this scene wasn't breezed over so people could ignore it like happens so often in the books. Sam somehow seemed older to me in the movie than he does in canon. Like a good man up against something beyond his capabilities that he ultimately overcomes.
The Multiple Endings
I could see the problem, but at the same time I didn't think it was really over until we saw them. If I was going to cut one I might think the final one with Sam, but then as I said I don't think it would really feel over without it. It's the start of the new story, and that's the end. I do wish some of the blackouts were a little shorter, perhaps, but the endings really didn't feel long to me. Bowing to the hobbits was just incredible--what a great line from Aragorn. What a classy guy. And he looks great jumping out of a boat.
Um, so that's me babbling for a long time and probably still forgetting a lot.
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It was so very gratuitous. No, saving the entire world is not enough, your girlfriend will die too! Blah. I think Aragorn just taking it in his own manly way and getting on with business saved that from being as bad as it could have been.
I think some people had a problem with the eating noises but I thought that was the point--you were supposed to see Pippin's song and Faramir's ride as this sublime thing rudely interupted by Denethor's gluttony
Yeah. Didn't like that, while also realizing it was the point. My dislike centered around Denethor's craziness, though, (so over the top) and the fact that his eating that horribly doesn't make much sense outside of symbolic requirement.
I also didn't mind the ring not melting immediately because it's a magic ring and Frodo had to "let it go" before it could sink completely. It's been one of the biggest characters in the story--it deserved a slow death scene.
Ah, is that what you guys meant about the friendship destroying the Ring thing? I interpreted that as the Ring just taking its own merry time, but a time convenient for any friendship-related symbolism. And a nice parallel of the FOTR moment. And probably by this point I was a babbling heap of Frodo and Sam love and willing to forgive anything cheesy.
the spotlight eye of doom; to me it always seemed like this was obviously what it would be like.
I always imagined the Eye inside some sort of tower, with walls around, seeing everything because of its magical powers instead of being present. When you have crazy concentration, do you really need a beam of light too?
It's the start of the new story, and that's the end. I do wish some of the blackouts were a little shorter, perhaps, but the endings really didn't feel long to me.
Multiple endings were fine by me. The last one was absolutely necessary for the completion of the story, and making us feel less bad about the Sam-ditching, and of course I wish there'd been an epilogue. Hee. ;D
Bowing to the hobbits was just incredible--what a great line from Aragorn.
I love that. It gave me shivers. So wonderful.
Also, I look forward to more rants! I'm craving ROTK reviews at the moment, and it's nice to see someone finding the middle way between overcome gushing and detailed analysis of the flaws, and explaining why they liked things in detail. :D
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Really? Weird. In our theatre, the applause at the character portraits went, from greatest to least amount: Legolas, Aragorn, Gandalf, Sam, Frodo, Gollum, Eowyn and then the other hobbits. Denethor got a 'boo'. But we had a very participative audience. Not only was there applause at the end, but also significant cheering for Eowyn taking down the Lord of the Nazgul, Gandalf downing Denethor, Sam stabbing Shelob, Sam stabbing the orc after Frodo in the tower, Frodo confronting Shelob, Aragon and Legolas jumping out of the corsair ships (there was an audible female sigh at that, I swear) etc.
Frodo and Sam
I didn't like most of the Frodo and Sam changes. I came away from the movie(s) with the impression that Frodo's mercy was foolish, and partly the result of distrust of Sam, caused by the Ring. I got almost no impression of Frodo's 'elf-like greatness' or grace, due to the quest; there was focus only on how the Ring was destroying him. I thought Sam's temptation by the Ring was rather weaker than in the book, and his statement that he should have known better, when he finds out Frodo is still alive after Shelob's attack, makes no sense in context: known better than what? It seems that Sam only just hides himself away in time as the orcs come. Should he have just hung out there waiting to be attacked by a company of orcs instead?
But I think Sam is the character in the whole movie (after Faramir) that I'm least pleased with. Especially because we had to watch so much of him. He seems so much more the modern movie hero than he seemed in the books. I detested his over-long monologue in the Two Towers about the benefits of war or whatever - especially as they came untempered by any disgust/sadness of his 'first view of Men fighting Men'.
The scene at the Green Dragon was very poignant, imo, with the hobbits just unable to be that carefree in those circumstances.
Yes, I thought that was an appropriate end to a heroic journey for the poor little hobbits. Especially after the 'you bow to no one' scene...it captured part of the flavor of their return to the Shire very nicely.
Arwen's fate tied to the ring...erm, WTF?
My thoughts exactly. That needed to go.
Billy Boyd, you're incredible and I love you.
Heh. I really loved the Pippin story arc in this movie. OK, the palantir-induced seizure was maybe a bit long, but the whole Merry-Pippin interaction, not to mention Gandalf and Pippin, was just perfect. And I liked the song he sang to Denethor. Lots.
I also really liked anything to do with Rohan or the Rohirrim. Eowyn, Theoden, the muster of Rohan, the ride of the Rohirrim into battle - it was all just perfect. Eowyn (and Rohan) got the best music in the entire movie.
Oh, though I was not so keen on the Faramir/Eowyn glance-of-mutual-admiration at Aragorn's coronation. Without any prior mention of the two even being in the same part of the city, it made it seem like Eowyn was thinking, "Oh, well, looks like the elf-chick showed up after all. No King for me. Guess I'll go for the steward instead."
Finally, multiple endings: also not a problem for me. The movie seemed amazingly short for the time it did in fact last; when the Ring melted I thought, "What, already?"
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