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Well, I've decided to inflict my huge ramblings about ROTK just in general upon this journal as well. I'll probably continue picking at it in bits and pieces, but this is just a mad ramble in response to everything.
PJ&Co had me at the word go.
The three hunters:
I liked the Dead Army, surprisingly. I thought this was basically what it would look like. In fact, thinking back, I think I appreciated that PJ went for the Frighteners type look instead of working hard to make more of an Army of Darkness type thing. I found the green light very effective. Also, nobody gets out of a boat like Aragorn. He puts even Johnny Depp to shame.
During the end credits two character portraits got applause: Gollum's and...Gimli's. In TTT I sometimes thought Gimli's jokes got a bit much but here I thought he was right on all the time. This is a guy you would want to go into battle with.
Arwen's fate tied to the ring...erm, WTF? I think that line should have ended up on the cutting room floor. Aragorn truly doesn't need that kind of motivation. Coals to Newcastle, really, and Aragorn seemed to think so too. That said, I thought her choice scene with her hands growing cold was quite nice. I liked the way it showed she hadn't actually chosen until that moment (also I thought her eyes turned brown there but they seemed to be blue again later). I liked her vision too--some people feel this is ridiculous, saying that a child changed her mind, but I thought it was much more about an elf understanding mortal immortality for the first time. Of course all Elrond saw was death for her. Mortals have a very different understanding of children because of our mortality and that's what I thought Arwen was understanding there.
Pippin's Story
Billy Boyd, you're incredible and I love you. His scenes with Gandalf were so wonderful, especially the one where they talk about death. One of the things these movies did surprisingly well, imo, was how it did manage to make me feel real connections between characters--Gandalf and Pippin being a great example.
Denethor...well, I had no problem with him just being crazy from Boromir's death and not the Palantir. I understood, I thought, what was going on with him. He had no hope and was going to make sure the world became the way he saw it. Faramir really didn't see him at his craziest, though, so I could handle his suicide mission.
I had more problems with Gandalf's knocking him around. There were cheers when he knocked him out the first time which I did not think was a good thing. It was too Looney Tunes for me, sort of like when Bugs Bunny would sneak up behind Hitler and bop him. I think Gandalf could have found a more dignified way to take control. Pippin's pulling Faramir off the fire was wonderful. I didn't think Gandalf killed Denethor on purpose, as I recall. His dive over the cliff was a little ridiculous--could anybody run that fire when they were on fire?? I think it could have been done better. But that eating scene with Pippin singing during the charge was incredible. I think some people had a problem with the eating noises but I thought that was the point--you were supposed to see Pippin's song and Faramir's ride as this sublime thing rudely interupted by Denethor's gluttony.
I loved Pippin's acting during the Palantir scene, though the crazy fit was out of place for me. His good-bye to Merry was so so good. Dom and Billy really did it in this movie! Merry's run to the tower: perfect. I was laughing (silently) with joy during the beacon lighting and then realized, to my surprise, I was also crying. This movie filled me with great joy on more than one occasion.
Merry's story:
I was so pleasantly surprised by the bonds I saw in these scenes between Merry and Eowyn and Eowyn and Theoden (dare I hope for Merry and Theoden in the EE???). I loved Eowyn in general in this movie. Merry really seemed like a little brother to her with Eowyn the coolest big sister ever--strong, loving and vulnerable. I especially liked her line about Merry fighting for those people he loved. It really inspired respect for both her and Merry, imo. Merry's line to Pippin after he finds him was I know something I've heard with regards to WW1 soldiers whose friends found them wounded on the battlefield. "I knew you'd find me," is like the highest thing one soldier could say to another.
And then Eowyn and Theoden--that repitition of "I know your face. Eowyn," really hit me hard and makes me want to go back and watch the TTT scenes again immediately. It hinted at such a long, loving life between the two of them. That first time he said it it seemed like Theoden was just recognizing a face he hadn't recognized in a while, but then it became clear Eowyn's face was probably a beacon to him in life and had been for years. Like an angel, if you follow me, who led him out of darkness and here leads him gently towards death. Oh, and Bernard Hill's double-take when he sees her is one of the best little moments in the whole trilogy, seriously competing with Pippin's Treebeard doubletake.
Frodo and Sam
What to say? I loved it. I was very worried about changes, particularly the sending home of Sam, but once the movie started I was right there with them, back with the movie versions and leaving the book aside. I could see two very clear, different arcs for the Trio in TTT and ROTK. Frodo was no longer struggling with the same things he was in TTT. He, Gollum and Sam all had raised stakes in this one. Here I was thinking Frodo was sending Sam home over food, but instead I thought that scene played all the tensions there in canon just fine. Nobody betrayed anybody (except Gollum who betrayed everyone), Gollum just encouraged both hobbit's weaknesses and paranoia. Sam was too emotional and protective and played right into Gollum's hands because of it. Frodo had gotten more involved with the ring and Gollum's whisper at just the right moment (when he's exhausted after climbing the stairs) was believeable for me, first commisserating over the burden Sam can't understand, then planting the seed that Sam wants it.
And Sam did want it, for just the reasons he did it the book. He sees Frodo struggling, he's frustrated because he can't fulfil the role appointed to him (and self-appointed as well) of doing for him. He sees Frodo faltering, thinks it's up to him to keep him from doing the wrong thing. So he offers to carry the ring, which he does in the book (though in the book he only does so after he's worn it and tempted by it). Frodo had already had his "just like Gollum" moments in TTT so I thought he could be played calmer here without us forgetting how enthralled to the ring he was himself. It gave Sam a better foil to play against as he struggled with his own temptation.
I didn't have a problem with Sam leaving because I thought he was just dazed and did what Frodo said because it was the first instinct. I didn't think he was actually going home even as he went down the stairs. More likely he'd just try to find Faramir and offer his services or ask for help, imo. Seeing the bread focused everything for him just as being left alone in the tunnel focused Frodo's. They both realized how Gollum had used them against themselves. Once they saw that I thought they were stronger than ever. Sam knew what to do, and Frodo could fight for his own survival. I loved Frodo's lighting the phial and his fight with Shelob. The shot of her hovering above him gave me serious willies (and I've seen a lot of big spiders in movies) and the wrapping up moment was also freaky and georgeous. When Gollum disappeared it reminded me of the way Gollum would speak to himself as if there were two, then one would just be an illusion. I felt like Frodo was being led into his own darkness in the tunnel, in the end he got himself there. It wasn't all Gollum. His little "Sam," was great. So yeah, I thought both of them had their moment when they gave in to despair and then got themselves back on track for the other's sakes and that's Frodo and Sam for me.
Mount Doom I also thought was great, though I kind of wish Frodo didn't have to struggle through his lines about not recalling the taste of food so I could hear them better. Luckily he got stronger by the end and I loved his fear over the wheel of fire. Floating!Gollum looked weird but was probably accurate. I definitely didn't mind Frodo fighting with Gollum again since the ring was still destroyed by accident. I also didn't mind the ring not melting immediately because it's a magic ring and Frodo had to "let it go" before it could sink completely. It's been one of the biggest characters in the story--it deserved a slow death scene.
Frodo in general I loved though as usual I think his struggle and Elijah's performace will pass a lot of people by. What many people see as his seeming weak is not weak at all, imo. For intance, more than once he has to be literally fighting with his own body, which makes him look like he's staggering, like outside Minas Morgul. The ring's pulling him one way and he's fighting to go another, but of course it looks like he's just out of control. Not an easy thing to watch but then, why should it be? I particularly loved his last steps up Mt. Doom when he was waving away the eye--I hadn't dared hope we'd get that and we did! I'm surprised people didn't like the spotlight eye of doom; to me it always seemed like this was obviously what it would be like.
Oh, and Frodo's "Gandalf?" was really well-said, I thought. Poor hobbit didn't know he was alive! The Wizard of Oz reunion made me giggle but in a good way. I was just happy. I wish we'd seen more of Frodo's illness, but that's just probably because it's important to me. The scene at the Green Dragon was very poignant, imo, with the hobbits just unable to be that carefree in those circumstances. It was particularly sad because Merry and Pippin had referenced the Green Dragon so often as "home." The Grey Havens was wonderful, imo. I loved Frodo's pale, sad and wise demeanor through the whole thing while the others were crying. Merry in particular looked like he'd had his heart ripped out, and as I've always loved the canon friendship of Frodo and Merry that made me happy. I wouldn't have cut a single hug. And Frodo's final rosy cheeked smile? Yay. I haven't specifically said much about Sean Astin, but this is mostly because it's self-evident how incredible he was. His temptation scene, imo, was particularly well-done. I hated the ring for causing pain in even Sam, turning even his loving impulses sour, and so glad this scene wasn't breezed over so people could ignore it like happens so often in the books. Sam somehow seemed older to me in the movie than he does in canon. Like a good man up against something beyond his capabilities that he ultimately overcomes.
The Multiple Endings
I could see the problem, but at the same time I didn't think it was really over until we saw them. If I was going to cut one I might think the final one with Sam, but then as I said I don't think it would really feel over without it. It's the start of the new story, and that's the end. I do wish some of the blackouts were a little shorter, perhaps, but the endings really didn't feel long to me. Bowing to the hobbits was just incredible--what a great line from Aragorn. What a classy guy. And he looks great jumping out of a boat.
Um, so that's me babbling for a long time and probably still forgetting a lot.
PJ&Co had me at the word go.
The three hunters:
I liked the Dead Army, surprisingly. I thought this was basically what it would look like. In fact, thinking back, I think I appreciated that PJ went for the Frighteners type look instead of working hard to make more of an Army of Darkness type thing. I found the green light very effective. Also, nobody gets out of a boat like Aragorn. He puts even Johnny Depp to shame.
During the end credits two character portraits got applause: Gollum's and...Gimli's. In TTT I sometimes thought Gimli's jokes got a bit much but here I thought he was right on all the time. This is a guy you would want to go into battle with.
Arwen's fate tied to the ring...erm, WTF? I think that line should have ended up on the cutting room floor. Aragorn truly doesn't need that kind of motivation. Coals to Newcastle, really, and Aragorn seemed to think so too. That said, I thought her choice scene with her hands growing cold was quite nice. I liked the way it showed she hadn't actually chosen until that moment (also I thought her eyes turned brown there but they seemed to be blue again later). I liked her vision too--some people feel this is ridiculous, saying that a child changed her mind, but I thought it was much more about an elf understanding mortal immortality for the first time. Of course all Elrond saw was death for her. Mortals have a very different understanding of children because of our mortality and that's what I thought Arwen was understanding there.
Pippin's Story
Billy Boyd, you're incredible and I love you. His scenes with Gandalf were so wonderful, especially the one where they talk about death. One of the things these movies did surprisingly well, imo, was how it did manage to make me feel real connections between characters--Gandalf and Pippin being a great example.
Denethor...well, I had no problem with him just being crazy from Boromir's death and not the Palantir. I understood, I thought, what was going on with him. He had no hope and was going to make sure the world became the way he saw it. Faramir really didn't see him at his craziest, though, so I could handle his suicide mission.
I had more problems with Gandalf's knocking him around. There were cheers when he knocked him out the first time which I did not think was a good thing. It was too Looney Tunes for me, sort of like when Bugs Bunny would sneak up behind Hitler and bop him. I think Gandalf could have found a more dignified way to take control. Pippin's pulling Faramir off the fire was wonderful. I didn't think Gandalf killed Denethor on purpose, as I recall. His dive over the cliff was a little ridiculous--could anybody run that fire when they were on fire?? I think it could have been done better. But that eating scene with Pippin singing during the charge was incredible. I think some people had a problem with the eating noises but I thought that was the point--you were supposed to see Pippin's song and Faramir's ride as this sublime thing rudely interupted by Denethor's gluttony.
I loved Pippin's acting during the Palantir scene, though the crazy fit was out of place for me. His good-bye to Merry was so so good. Dom and Billy really did it in this movie! Merry's run to the tower: perfect. I was laughing (silently) with joy during the beacon lighting and then realized, to my surprise, I was also crying. This movie filled me with great joy on more than one occasion.
Merry's story:
I was so pleasantly surprised by the bonds I saw in these scenes between Merry and Eowyn and Eowyn and Theoden (dare I hope for Merry and Theoden in the EE???). I loved Eowyn in general in this movie. Merry really seemed like a little brother to her with Eowyn the coolest big sister ever--strong, loving and vulnerable. I especially liked her line about Merry fighting for those people he loved. It really inspired respect for both her and Merry, imo. Merry's line to Pippin after he finds him was I know something I've heard with regards to WW1 soldiers whose friends found them wounded on the battlefield. "I knew you'd find me," is like the highest thing one soldier could say to another.
And then Eowyn and Theoden--that repitition of "I know your face. Eowyn," really hit me hard and makes me want to go back and watch the TTT scenes again immediately. It hinted at such a long, loving life between the two of them. That first time he said it it seemed like Theoden was just recognizing a face he hadn't recognized in a while, but then it became clear Eowyn's face was probably a beacon to him in life and had been for years. Like an angel, if you follow me, who led him out of darkness and here leads him gently towards death. Oh, and Bernard Hill's double-take when he sees her is one of the best little moments in the whole trilogy, seriously competing with Pippin's Treebeard doubletake.
Frodo and Sam
What to say? I loved it. I was very worried about changes, particularly the sending home of Sam, but once the movie started I was right there with them, back with the movie versions and leaving the book aside. I could see two very clear, different arcs for the Trio in TTT and ROTK. Frodo was no longer struggling with the same things he was in TTT. He, Gollum and Sam all had raised stakes in this one. Here I was thinking Frodo was sending Sam home over food, but instead I thought that scene played all the tensions there in canon just fine. Nobody betrayed anybody (except Gollum who betrayed everyone), Gollum just encouraged both hobbit's weaknesses and paranoia. Sam was too emotional and protective and played right into Gollum's hands because of it. Frodo had gotten more involved with the ring and Gollum's whisper at just the right moment (when he's exhausted after climbing the stairs) was believeable for me, first commisserating over the burden Sam can't understand, then planting the seed that Sam wants it.
And Sam did want it, for just the reasons he did it the book. He sees Frodo struggling, he's frustrated because he can't fulfil the role appointed to him (and self-appointed as well) of doing for him. He sees Frodo faltering, thinks it's up to him to keep him from doing the wrong thing. So he offers to carry the ring, which he does in the book (though in the book he only does so after he's worn it and tempted by it). Frodo had already had his "just like Gollum" moments in TTT so I thought he could be played calmer here without us forgetting how enthralled to the ring he was himself. It gave Sam a better foil to play against as he struggled with his own temptation.
I didn't have a problem with Sam leaving because I thought he was just dazed and did what Frodo said because it was the first instinct. I didn't think he was actually going home even as he went down the stairs. More likely he'd just try to find Faramir and offer his services or ask for help, imo. Seeing the bread focused everything for him just as being left alone in the tunnel focused Frodo's. They both realized how Gollum had used them against themselves. Once they saw that I thought they were stronger than ever. Sam knew what to do, and Frodo could fight for his own survival. I loved Frodo's lighting the phial and his fight with Shelob. The shot of her hovering above him gave me serious willies (and I've seen a lot of big spiders in movies) and the wrapping up moment was also freaky and georgeous. When Gollum disappeared it reminded me of the way Gollum would speak to himself as if there were two, then one would just be an illusion. I felt like Frodo was being led into his own darkness in the tunnel, in the end he got himself there. It wasn't all Gollum. His little "Sam," was great. So yeah, I thought both of them had their moment when they gave in to despair and then got themselves back on track for the other's sakes and that's Frodo and Sam for me.
Mount Doom I also thought was great, though I kind of wish Frodo didn't have to struggle through his lines about not recalling the taste of food so I could hear them better. Luckily he got stronger by the end and I loved his fear over the wheel of fire. Floating!Gollum looked weird but was probably accurate. I definitely didn't mind Frodo fighting with Gollum again since the ring was still destroyed by accident. I also didn't mind the ring not melting immediately because it's a magic ring and Frodo had to "let it go" before it could sink completely. It's been one of the biggest characters in the story--it deserved a slow death scene.
Frodo in general I loved though as usual I think his struggle and Elijah's performace will pass a lot of people by. What many people see as his seeming weak is not weak at all, imo. For intance, more than once he has to be literally fighting with his own body, which makes him look like he's staggering, like outside Minas Morgul. The ring's pulling him one way and he's fighting to go another, but of course it looks like he's just out of control. Not an easy thing to watch but then, why should it be? I particularly loved his last steps up Mt. Doom when he was waving away the eye--I hadn't dared hope we'd get that and we did! I'm surprised people didn't like the spotlight eye of doom; to me it always seemed like this was obviously what it would be like.
Oh, and Frodo's "Gandalf?" was really well-said, I thought. Poor hobbit didn't know he was alive! The Wizard of Oz reunion made me giggle but in a good way. I was just happy. I wish we'd seen more of Frodo's illness, but that's just probably because it's important to me. The scene at the Green Dragon was very poignant, imo, with the hobbits just unable to be that carefree in those circumstances. It was particularly sad because Merry and Pippin had referenced the Green Dragon so often as "home." The Grey Havens was wonderful, imo. I loved Frodo's pale, sad and wise demeanor through the whole thing while the others were crying. Merry in particular looked like he'd had his heart ripped out, and as I've always loved the canon friendship of Frodo and Merry that made me happy. I wouldn't have cut a single hug. And Frodo's final rosy cheeked smile? Yay. I haven't specifically said much about Sean Astin, but this is mostly because it's self-evident how incredible he was. His temptation scene, imo, was particularly well-done. I hated the ring for causing pain in even Sam, turning even his loving impulses sour, and so glad this scene wasn't breezed over so people could ignore it like happens so often in the books. Sam somehow seemed older to me in the movie than he does in canon. Like a good man up against something beyond his capabilities that he ultimately overcomes.
The Multiple Endings
I could see the problem, but at the same time I didn't think it was really over until we saw them. If I was going to cut one I might think the final one with Sam, but then as I said I don't think it would really feel over without it. It's the start of the new story, and that's the end. I do wish some of the blackouts were a little shorter, perhaps, but the endings really didn't feel long to me. Bowing to the hobbits was just incredible--what a great line from Aragorn. What a classy guy. And he looks great jumping out of a boat.
Um, so that's me babbling for a long time and probably still forgetting a lot.
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From:
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I did think that TTT Gollum showed the results of Frodo's forgiveness - the movie then implies that Frodo's betrayal of him, with Faramir as an accomplice, was what turned him back over to evil. Didn't like this at all, and is one of the reasons why I'm not contented with the "Faramir can't be so perfect, we had to make him more tempted" justification - they made Faramir responsible for Gollum's demise. Although in its way that makes him responsible for the world's salvation too. Weird, weird. *torn between love for Faramir and Gollum and confused by conflicting moral messages*
From:
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Forgot to say about Denethor, he's never been my favorite character so I'm probably more open to his being reduced to something more comic as well. I was reading this really stupid article somebody posted by a guy who claimed the movies were very inferior morally to the books and using explanations that didn't hold up at all (also misunderstanding the movie at points) and he claimed Tolkien "clearly" wanted Denethor to represent a noble pessimist just driven to despair by the state his culture had fallen into...um, projection much? I really don't see Denethor in the book that way at all and the point of this whole article appeared to be that he had that attitude about his own culture, which these movies symbolized.
From:
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Yes and no, I think. In the books, Tolkien implies that Aragorn has power to resist the Ring more than any other living being, because he is pure Numenorian and the ancient power of that race flows in his veins etc. E.g., he alone is capable of looking into the Orthanc palantir and confronting Sauron directly--and he terrifies Sauron. Even Gandalf, Maia though he is, does not have that strength, and never risks looking into the palantir.
Only Aragorn can pass the Doors of the Dead and survive (and any who follow him are protected by him). And he alone can absolve the dead of their guilt. Aragorn has powers that are only hinted at--not supernatural magical powers, but supreme human moral authority.
Which is not to say that he would have been able to resist the Ring's corruption. Eventually he too would have succumbed.
Book!Faramir, in whom the blood of Numenor also runs true (as it did not in Denethor and Boromir), apparently also has a bit of Aragorn's quality of Insight and strength; hence he too is capable of rejecting the Ring once, at least.
Forgot to say about Denethor, he's never been my favorite character so I'm probably more open to his being reduced to something more comic as well. I was reading this really stupid article somebody posted by a guy who [...] claimed Tolkien "clearly" wanted Denethor to represent a noble pessimist just driven to despair by the state his culture had fallen into...um, projection much?
Some of this seems right to me. Book!Denethor isn't very likeable, but he is noble. His lineage is nearly the same as Aragorn's and far more illustrious than, say, Theoden's. He is a pessimist because he lives in the diminished latter days of his nation (or culture, if you will), and is aware that his people have fallen from their greatness.
His natural pessimism is corrupted into madness and despair when he begins to look into the Minas Tirith palantir. Because he is no King (not Aragorn), he mistakes what Sauron chooses to show him in the palantir for the objective truth. And so despairs.
So it's a pity that Denethor is shown in the movie as merely nutso. Jackson got rid of the second palantir because it would have been two confusing to have two of them. But without it, Denethor's fall makes little sense, and his tragedy is reduced to farce.
From:
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Hi. I just wrote an overlong post but some of it was about Denethor so I thought I might aim you that way to see what you thought. Here. Actually much of my Denethor thoughts are unsophisticated as I'm kind of happy to have him be less complicated, so maybe it's not so interesting.
But I also wanted an excuse to ask you what your icon is quoting. :)
I agree with you two about Faramir. I like the character created for the movie, but he's such a wonderful one in the book. And it does change things around with Gollum. Jackson took out that lovely scene when Frodo and Sam are napping and Gollum comes up to them. I'm not sure it's a very filmable scene. But it really was one of the most touching ones in the book. And then Sam barks at him and that's pretty much it for Gollum. Though he had been planning their demise earlier, hadn't he? That was just the final push. Hmm I'll have to reread it.
From:
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The problem for me with Movie!Denethor (aside from his crude table manners, which seem rather startlingly out of character) is that we have no motive for his viciousness and insanity. In the books, the Minas Tirith palantir makes clear that Denethor has long since been corrupted to despair by Sauron, just as Saruman was. Since Jackson removed that, along with the Scouring of the Shire, we lose the point that Sauron's evil is not confined to Mordor, but has already infiltrated all of Middle Earth.
Without that explanation, Denethor really doesn't have much purpose in the story & might as well have been deleted. Why Pippin would feel moved to swear allegiance to such a man is puzzling. If Denethor had been portrayed as noble but weak, or wise but despairing, or something, then his fall would have had some poignancy, and Faramir's suffering might have made sense. I'm not sure why Jackson made that change. Expediency, I suppose. The whole Denethor section felt very rushed to me. It might have helped to introduce him in TTT.
From:
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From:
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Leaving out the Minas Tirith palantir is one of the more glaring ommissions in ROTK. It didn't mess with my suspension of disbelief, but it would have made Denethor a better character to have it in. It's perfectly plausible to be he'd go mad from grief for his sons. But his paranoia towards Gandalf, his predatory demeanor, before Faramir falls, are better explained by using the palantir. Maybe in the EE.
From:
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Some of this seems right to me. Book!Denethor isn't very likeable, but he is noble. His lineage is nearly the same as Aragorn's and far more illustrious than, say, Theoden's. He is a pessimist because he lives in the diminished latter days of his nation (or culture, if you will), and is aware that his people have fallen from their greatness.
Oh, I agree some of this is right. It's just having the character reduced to one idea, and not an idea that makes up a complete character, and in such a snotty way, really irritated me!
From:
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Am totally with that. I love the flashes of nobility you can see in Denethor, and it was disheartening to see PJ strip away much of that character's dignity - because dignity, if nothing else, was one of his good points. That death scene was just too comic to buy.
I also wish the movie had shown some of that genuine good-feeling Denethor had when Pippin swore allegiance to him that too, might have made him slightly less 2D. Evil rarely manages to appear anything other than black and white in the third movie, and imo that's one of its weakest points.