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Yes, after that monster post I am posting again. But it's a different subject, and it's really ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
spare_change's fault. She mentioned this old post of mine about Lucius and Draco in HP. A couple of things struck me about it. One small thing was this me saying of Draco was "He's got nothing personally, but is excited when he feels like he's stealing or borrowing from others..." because hee! He's a thief!"
But this is the other part, which deals with writing problems,
More important was the first part: I love this relationship in canon. I think it's full of hints of things painful and hurful and disturbing which make me love Draco oh-so-very-much, obviously. It also deals with things I think I'm very bad at trying to do in my own writing, something I'm trying to work on. My own instinct is always to make parental characters good. They may make mistakes or drive their kids crazy but they are almost always basically supportive and respecting of their children. This is not always the case in reality, but I have a hard time writing about it realistically or well. This is something I would like to do better--need to do better, really, at the moment.
I still need to do it better. I'm writing this thing with a father and son and I know this relationship is at the center of the story, but I keep rewriting the first scene and having it go nowhere. See, the Dad is the kind of kid who puts down his son that way, but when I try to write it it just feels fake, like he might as well be twirling his moustache. I realized the problem is that I really don't know how to get inside the character yet in terms of why he treats his kid that way, because it just goes against all my instincts with a weaker person or a kid. I have this knee-jerk encouragement reaction to kids, so I don't get the urge to cut them down that way. I should understand it, since it's not like I don't get that urge with other people from time to time. Like when you're talking to an insufferable person on a messageboard and you want to be sarcastic. But doing it to your child just sort of confuses me. I can see it happening once in a while because the parent is fed up, but it's hard to understand the pov of someone who does it naturally all the time.
I guess I'll have to just sit down and really think more deeply for this character, but I wonder if anybody has any thoughts on the topic in general. For instance,spare_change, it seems like you'd have a lot of insights into power dynamics, especially within families. :D
p.s. This was obviously important because I missed my subway stop thinking about it. I have no memory of the place I should have gotten out to go to a dance class.
spare_change's fault. She mentioned this old post of mine about Lucius and Draco in HP. A couple of things struck me about it. One small thing was this me saying of Draco was "He's got nothing personally, but is excited when he feels like he's stealing or borrowing from others..." because hee! He's a thief!"But this is the other part, which deals with writing problems,
More important was the first part: I love this relationship in canon. I think it's full of hints of things painful and hurful and disturbing which make me love Draco oh-so-very-much, obviously. It also deals with things I think I'm very bad at trying to do in my own writing, something I'm trying to work on. My own instinct is always to make parental characters good. They may make mistakes or drive their kids crazy but they are almost always basically supportive and respecting of their children. This is not always the case in reality, but I have a hard time writing about it realistically or well. This is something I would like to do better--need to do better, really, at the moment.
I still need to do it better. I'm writing this thing with a father and son and I know this relationship is at the center of the story, but I keep rewriting the first scene and having it go nowhere. See, the Dad is the kind of kid who puts down his son that way, but when I try to write it it just feels fake, like he might as well be twirling his moustache. I realized the problem is that I really don't know how to get inside the character yet in terms of why he treats his kid that way, because it just goes against all my instincts with a weaker person or a kid. I have this knee-jerk encouragement reaction to kids, so I don't get the urge to cut them down that way. I should understand it, since it's not like I don't get that urge with other people from time to time. Like when you're talking to an insufferable person on a messageboard and you want to be sarcastic. But doing it to your child just sort of confuses me. I can see it happening once in a while because the parent is fed up, but it's hard to understand the pov of someone who does it naturally all the time.
I guess I'll have to just sit down and really think more deeply for this character, but I wonder if anybody has any thoughts on the topic in general. For instance,
spare_change, it seems like you'd have a lot of insights into power dynamics, especially within families. :Dp.s. This was obviously important because I missed my subway stop thinking about it. I have no memory of the place I should have gotten out to go to a dance class.
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child = possession. Switch from the genitive to the possessive.
And a child to be trained into a Specific Something. Unfortuately, not all children take to this....
When you get into that level of deprivation, and depravity, then Lucius' own example of being a raptor...
Then you'll get somewhere.
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The father I'm working with isn't exactly like Lucius, though he does have some things in common with him. I think one could make the argument that Lucius sees a child as a possession much more than this father could. He does love his son, imo, but there is definitely an element of what you described, seeing the child as needing to be trained into a Specific Something...
LJ is great!
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When one approaches parenthood with the idea of arming their kids against the big bad world, they can fall into the rigid mindset that kids need to do and be certain things or die trying, literally. Kids are more resilient and adaptive than that, however.
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man hands on misery to man/it deepens like a coastal shelf ...
Well, first off, I don't think I'm good at writing any of this stuff. I was re-reading that thread of yours today and it was one of those "You must change your life" moments, 'cos it just highlighted to me what I had been doing wrong in my L/D fics, and what I needed to improve.
(And also it sent me back to reading Passage to Eden, which is always a good thing, because ... hotness.)
But probably the bigger problem is that I try not to examine these issues too much, myself. At least explicitly. In fact, I would really love to learn more about your writing process in general, because I myself try to write really intuitively. I'm an academic and I work very analytically and if I apply this to fiction, I just end up overthinking things and I get all stuck and jammed up and frustrated. Olympia, who is very muse-driven as a writer, gave me a lot of good advice, back in the day, and so now I just try to trust that my characters know more than I do, and that even if I have no idea where a story is going, eventually it will all come together and make sense.
But I am guessing that because you work with a co-author and you often write within a series, you don't have the luxury of being so wankily self-indulgent. And -- just from the incredible amount of insight you've already brought to your analysis of the Lucius-Draco dynamic -- that you do try to figure out your characters and what motivates them clearly, before writing them down.
Hmmm. So I don't really know if I can help you. But, for what it's worth, I think you are getting it "right." At least from my own very subjective p.o.v. But as far as translating these insights into the actions of a specific character -- which is what your post is about, I guess -- maybe the thing to remember (which you're already working towards) is that every person tends to regard their actions as completely logical and justified and sympathetic. And, indeed, that while from the outside they may appear to be cruel and hateful, they may perceive themselves as victimized and put-upon by everyone else.
So a kid may see a parent as villainous, but from the point of view of a parent who has a very short temper and who gets very nervous and irritable when things don't go as he/she wants them, dealing with a child who is slow or intractable or has a mind of his/her own is going to feel like the entire world -- even the person's own fucking genetic material -- is conspiring against them to give them a migraine headache. Do you know what I mean?
Mr. Darling is one version of this. Barrie writes him in a loveable way, but he's really an asshole, esp. to his wife, particularly at the beginning of the book. He's just someone who's uptight and inflexible and who thus doesn't deal well with other people's demands. And he takes out his insecurities on other people ... (and dogs ...)
Anyway, I don't know if this has any relevance to the specific character you're writing. But I definitely think that even the most loving parents have moments of thinking that their children are just hateful little demons sent direct from Hades with the specific purpose of tormenting and embarrassing and annoying them. And so lashing out wouldn't appear, to the parent, to be picking on somebody's who is weaker and dependent on them, but just a normal reaction against a nasty little creature that is PLUCKING YOUR LAST NERVE.
As Olympia once said, "Poor Draco, to have Lucius as a father. Poor Lucius, to have Draco as a son."
Ugh. This is the most incoherent comment I've ever written, ever.
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Re: man hands on misery to man/it deepens like a coastal shelf ...
Also a lot of the time I think of it like acting too, where I'm playing all the parts. When I work with my partner we always read whatever we've written out loud when we finish, with me reading and playing everybody. Heh--last night I was doing the voice of the Evil Dr. Sniffy and realized he apparently sounded like Hannibal Lecter.
I think what I probably do need is one really basic idea about the character, and right now this character is just a plot device. I'm not seeing this relationship through his pov, so I can't see it from his son's pov either, in a way. I don't hear him in my head yet.
I guess -- maybe the thing to remember (which you're already working towards) is that every person tends to regard their actions as completely logical and justified and sympathetic. And, indeed, that while from the outside they may appear to be cruel and hateful, they may perceive themselves as victimized and put-upon by everyone else.
You are totally right. I think that's the main thing I need to think about this guy, like what is it he thinks his job is when it comes to being a parent? Especially--I hadn't thought about it from this angle until you said this--in terms of what his son is doing to him. I know he's done something wrong but I'm not sure exactly what is so bad about his behavior. I have an idea what he thinks about other things, so I should probably be able to apply that to children.
So a kid may see a parent as villainous, but from the point of view of a parent who has a very short temper and who gets very nervous and irritable when things don't go as he/she wants them, dealing with a child who is slow or intractable or has a mind of his/her own is going to feel like the entire world -- even the person's own fucking genetic material -- is conspiring against them to give them a migraine headache. Do you know what I mean?
Ooh! Ooh! Yeah! That really could help, this idea, since this father does have reason to think the world's against him... I was thinking about your Mr. Darling post with regards to this too. It makes me want to re-read that book. I barely remember it but it's probably very funny when you're an adult.
As Olympia once said, "Poor Draco, to have Lucius as a father. Poor Lucius, to have Draco as a son."
Oh, so true. With Draco you know that if he had a different father he'd be a different boy, but it's harder to imagine a son that would be better for Lucius. I mean, if he had Sirius Black we'd probably like his son more but it would probably make Lucius even worse. I can't imagine a son who'd be capable of actually changing him like Luke Skywalker saved Darth Vader.
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Re: man hands on misery to man/it deepens like a coastal shelf ...
Anyway, I get what you are saying. It sounds like you have figured out this character, but you are just still waiting for that hook that is going to grab you and make him seem like an actual living, breathing person to you. And get him to start muttering in your head.
The only thing I can think of -- which, again, I'm sure you're already doing -- is reading other Bastard Fathers. Mr. Darling is great 'cos he's written in such a light, wry way, but he's just so splendidly awful. Read chapters 1 & 2, and 16 & 17.
Alas, he would not listen. He was determined to show who was master in that house, and when commands would not draw Nana from the kennel, he lured her out of it with honeyed words, and seizing her roughly, dragged her from the nursery. He was ashamed of himself, and yet he did it. It was all owing to his too affectionate nature, which craved for admiration.
(AHHAAA! You know, I hadn't thought of it before, but I think Nana:Mr. Darling as Crocodile:Hook, in terms of being the tick-tick-tocking voice of his conscience, or the intimations of his own mortality, or whatnot.)
I guess I just always think that the more brutally someone wields their power, the weaker they really are. Which is why I actually find tyrants like this oddly sympathetic. I don't know if that helps any.
Also, I was trying to think of other awful parental figures in the YA genre, but the first one that popped to mind was actually Dwight in This Boy's Life, which I'm rereading currently. Which isn't YA, although obviously that matters not a whit.
And yes, I think you're right that there couldn't be a son who could change Lucius. But I guess there are ones who could bear up better. *hearts the L/D massively*
<333333333333333 to you as well! I look forward to hearing more about your book!
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Re: man hands on misery to man/it deepens like a coastal shelf ...
I am so beginning to have a soft spot for Mr. Darling. I can just see him making a fool, out of himself and tormenting this dog. I love that it comes out of his need to be admired. And the crocodile clock as hook's conscience rox my sox!
I guess I just always think that the more brutally someone wields their power, the weaker they really are.
Me too. I think it's a new thing for me to think about that from the person's pov rather than from the outside looking in. It has to be believeable that the person doesn't think their weakness is showing. Maybe they're not even aware they have that weakness, exactly.
It's kind of interesting to imagine a son who could bear up against Lucius--really he could have ended up with a scary kid who was scarier than he is. Poor Draco is rather pathetic in comparison to the kid he might have been.
<333333333333333 to you as well! I look forward to hearing more about your book!
<333333333333333333 back! We'll see if it ever gets anywhere near a book! I have no clue if the idea will end up being the least bit marketable!
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I feel like I'm jumping in here without all the facts, or, univited or something. o_o But, er.
Maybe you don't have to try to feel, yourself, the perspective of a parent who would be so cruel to a child. That kind of cruelty isn't necessarily child-related. Which, of course you know that.
But, to know how it feels to be that terribly mean - you probably *do* know. From the perspective of having been so incredibly angry at someone once that you felt justified to hate them, or to wish something bad would happen to them, or, more simply, to believe that they deserve all the wrath you felt against them. Or, dealing with someone, like, say, the guy at the phone company who doesn't believe they overbilled you and who insists they're going to turn off your phone if you don't fork over that extra hundred dollars - well, he's a jerk, he's a moron, and dammit, he's not. listening. to. you. Or, okay, maybe you haven't felt that way, because I get the feeling you are a much nicer person than me. :D But negative feelings, that you feel completely justified in having. That's where I was going.
Feel that way, but pour it out in the voice of this character you're writing. Because parents who are like that - they feel just as justified. I wrote something that I'm both proud of and ashamed of, because it deals with rape, and is written from the point of view of the agressor. I didn't write it by trying to understand what it would feel like to rape someone, I wrote it by trying to understand how it would feel to justify to myself all of the terrible feelings I sometimes have. To justify all of my self hatred, all of my self-destructiveness, by letting myself be as horrible as I sometimes thought I was. Only, I expressed it through a character who did something I could never, ever do. I couldn't have written it any other way. I'm not sure I *should* have written it, honestly, because...well, it worked. From the couple of reviews I've gotten, I appear to have done what I tried to do: make the rapist sympathetic.
See, there are certain things I don't think I could do in writing: make bad guys sympathetic, or believable. When other people do it, I'm amazed, I'm awed by their skill in characterization. But when I do, knowing where I had to go inside myself to pull that characterization out successfully, I wonder what that says about me, you know? That's something I got over just long enough to write that one story. So I'm proud of that story, but I'm ashamed that I made public something ugly of myself into it, even though that ugly thing has nothing to do with rape nor power-tripping.
Aaaaaaand I'm rambling. I'm just trying to say, that I think to write about something that abhorrant to you without actually knowing what it is to be that person, you have to still be willing to go to ugly places in yourself. Think about something you're ashamed that you feel, and then decide that your character acts the way he acts because he feels that way. Maybe.
Um.
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Oh, not at all! This post is definitely public, I just mentioned
But, to know how it feels to be that terribly mean - you probably *do* know. From the perspective of having been so incredibly angry at someone once that you felt justified to hate them, or to wish something bad would happen to them, or, more simply, to believe that they deserve all the wrath you felt against them.
Oh yes, I definitely have felt that way.:-) I think this particular situation with parent/child is interesting because there's love mixed in with the hate--so it's even more twisted! There's something just satisfying about a scene where somebody tells off an incompetant technician.
To justify all of my self hatred, all of my self-destructiveness, by letting myself be as horrible as I sometimes thought I was.
Oh, I think that's a totally valid thing to do--and I'm not sure it came out so well. That, to me, is one of the benefits of fiction. You can write in extremes. It's really not that strange when you think of the kinds of violent fantasies people tend to have when they're angry. Like you imagine being able to hurt somebody when they make you so angry even if you never would.
See, there are certain things I don't think I could do in writing: make bad guys sympathetic, or believable. When other people do it, I'm amazed, I'm awed by their skill in characterization.
Yeah, I think it's just essential to make the bad guys complex and believeable. Sometimes in the past I've found I end up being too sympathetic to the bad guys and they end up being too nice. I've got to work on being empathetic without sympathetic, which makes it tempting to fix things for them or make them look good. I'm okay with comic villains, I think, but serious ones are harder. Especially when they're not evil but exceptionally cruel. There was one book we published when I was in kids' publishing that I loved that did a great job with this. I think the intro even referred to "carelessness with love" as being one of the big monsters in the story. It was definitely clear where the father in that story was coming from.
These posts are genuinely helping me, though. It's funny because...hmm..I was going to say it's not like this character does anything that bad, like on the level of rape, but in fact he does something really bad in the story. I think it's just something I can understand more so it doesn't seem like as much as an obstacle to understanding. I think I need to take the things that make him able to do the one thing and apply them to his relationship with his son...
Wee! This is great! Problem's not solved, but I don't feel like I'm completely at sea anymore.
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