So what are characters anyway?

[sistermagpie]

So there were these big wanks recently, and they got me thinking about the whole process of being a fan, using the examples from my own experiences, especially with The Boy (you know, the one who inspires all that wank).

Here's the exchange. Not angry face! (I have some suspicions about who this is, but that's neither here nor there.)

So I tried to answer exactly why I insist on this analysis and interest of a minor character in a children's series, and the main part of my answer that seems relevant is: "People are drawn to fictional characters for all sorts of reasons." With fictional characters, there almost seems to be two different levels. On the first level, you identify with them as if they were real people: you and people you know. Sometimes people see themselves as the character. Arguing with someone like that is impossible because it's personal. If you say Scully could quit working with Mulder if she wanted you're suggesting Esme could leave her job where she's so unappreciated as well and that would ruin the passive-aggressive martyrdom that is Esme's life. If you say why Draco seems to be doing something, you are suggesting that the person who picked on them in high school was human and not the forces of evil they are continually fighting with their own equally aggressive behavior.

slytherincess, I recall, did a really wonderful post once where she explained how she was very much like the Slytherin characters growing up--and not in some idealized way either. She learned and changed, and this was partly why she did not like people dismissing those characters as unable to do the same. Even though she identified with the characters, she could also look at their faults objectively. It reminded me of Edmund, my favorite character in The Chronicles of Narnia. I love how the narrator tells us that Edmund grew up to be a "graver and quieter" man than Peter and was Just rather than Magnificent (that Peter, still showing off). If someone accepts the parts of himself or herself that are in ugly characters (without romanticizing the ugliness into something else) they can offer a lot of wisdom about them. Even though it's them, it's not always personal, because they're talking about parts of themselves they struggled with and got to know until they weren't afraid of them.

So that's the straightforward way people respond to characters. It's always kind of fun to see that--fun or disturbing. But on another level we know they're fictional characters and are therefore free to live through them in totally different ways. You can, imo, like them because they let you live out parts of yourself you don't show the world, or approve of. It's like I said about the Thief archetype--it's not that I think stealing is cool, it's just that things about this character are very satisfying for me to live out fictionally.

So I'm trying to think about these Slytherin characters--how exactly do I react to them on both those levels? First as real people--well, I'd never be friend with them. Draco reminds me of different people in different ways, but here's two in particular. A girl I knew at camp, D1, and a boy I knew at another summer program, D2. Hated them both. D1 was generally mean, and while I usually stayed off her radar she occasionally would pick on me for no reason (we were in the same tent--imagine being stuck with Draco for rest period). That was awful. D2, for whatever reason, targeted me the first day and went after me whenever I was around--and what was worse was that this was a sailing thing and I had never sailed and had no idea what I was doing there, while he was an expert with his own boat. I seem to recall him locking a younger boy in a locker for several hours--yeah, he was charming.

So I hated both these people. D1 wound up leaving camp a bit early. Her father was a photographer who came to take pictures at the camp. Mysterious drama ensued. Her mother, stepfather and sister came to get her. Her best friend informed us her father was not allowed near her, as there were some sort of abuse charges--either spousal or child--in existence. D2 stayed the whole summer, but I did learn his parents were both psychiatrists, and that his beloved older brother had committed suicide.

My reactions to these revelations was pretty much the same:

1. A pleasant feeling of schadenfreude: You make me miserable, and you are miserable. Good. Be miserable.

2. Firmly deciding that their being hurt did not excuse their hurting me--this is such a strong belief for me it drives me crazy when people accuse me of trying to "excuse" bad behavior in fictional characters. Really, I don't. I would just rather stop it than punish it.

3. Some guilty fantasies about what it would be like if, the next time they taunted me, I said I could certainly understand why D1's father hit her or D2's brother killed himself, because they were such awful people they inspired such actions. This was followed quickly by the thought that if I did say these things the person probably would not collapse in tears, but kick my ass. That was followed by the realization that I really didn't want to say these things anyway, even if it would cause them to collapse in tears, because I didn't want to hurt them, I just wanted them to leave me alone, and saying those things would be a shitty thing.

4. From that moment, everything both of them did I tried to think of from the perspective of their new knowledge. What was D1 like with her older sister and her mother? She was so mean and tough to me, but she cried when she ran out of the mess hall because her father was there. What was her father like? Did he have a creepy, "You love your daddy don't you honey?" air about him? How long had her mother been married to this new guy? Was he like her father at all, but a nice guy? Did she get along with him? Did he have to consciously work on helping her through this trauma? And how about that best friend telling us her secret and probably loving the attention as she did it? Well, what do you expect from a girl who brushed her hair 200 times a day and took 40 minutes to get her pigtails just right.

With D2 it was even weirder, with the psychiatrist parents. Were they workaholics who made a lot of money for boats but didn't spend enough time at home? My mother always said a lot of people became psychologists to fix their own problems (heh--my sister's a psychologist)...did they struggle with suicidal thoughts too? Did D2 really look up to his brother? Were they close? Did he feel betrayed? When did it happen? How did he do it????

I didn't have all these thoughts at once, of course. I've thought about it now and again for 20 years now. Like I said, these incidents didn't make me suddenly like the person or feel sorry for them. But it did make me incapable of seeing them as just D1 the girl who's mean, or just D2 that little shit. They had families and histories and were different people with them. Most of the time you don't get this kind of dramatic information--with D1 even at the time I thought it was almost too after-school-special to be true that her big secret would be revealed to me. But I think you get more than you might think if you pay attention to people. I guess that's why the B&B scene is so significant to me in CoS--if I'd witnessed the scene that Harry did it would have totally changed my view of Draco.

So I do respond to Draco and Pansy as I would if they were real people in terms of wanting to know motivation. Only I like them...but why? I didn't like D1 or D2. I think part of it might be the nature of narrative. I don't really look at any of the kids in this universe and see myself, mostly because this universe seems to clearly come out of the head of someone very different from me. It's very concerned with justice in a way that I just am not--that's why it's so made up of power struggles. There are victims, and bullies, and heroes who protect the victims from bullies. Everyone is supposed to aspire to the hero who protects the victim from bullies--just like in CS Lewis, Peter the Magnificent is elevated above Edmund the Just (where just, imo, refers to wisdom and mercy instead of pardon and punishment).

For people who are more in tune with this personality, I think the differences between the Gryffindors and the Slytherins are more prominent. For me, not so much. I feel out of balance with the world, and that's probably why I often find Draco and Pansy refreshing. Not because they're better people than the main characters, but because they do sometimes say what I'm thinking, like that Hagrid's a menace or Dumbledore is a whacko. Or other times they're just different, not taking things seriously that the heroes take more seriously than I do, or something. Plus they're so obviously vulnerable, walking around announcing their insecurities, getting rejected and screaming about it for five years instead of accepting it and moving on. Screaming for approval and affection and continuing to love passionately and stupidly without it because you can't seem to stop it. Also maybe I think the actions of people all around him are so calculated to make him act even more badly, I am distracted by that. Most importantly, I am drawn to them for all the reasons I outlined in the post a couple down, about what the ultimate judgement on this character "says" about morality, people, etc.

The important thing is, that it's hard to say why you're drawn to a character, and it's a bad idea to assume the answer is so straightforward. It's really not always that this is the character that is like you, or the one you want to date, or the one you'd love to be if you could. I think it's just the character that says something about what you need to work out at any given time. That's why people's characters change. I knew people who read LOTR as a teenager and loved Aragorn, but years later loved Frodo. (One person even referred to coming to identify with Frodo in canon as "growing up") It doesn't mean you "were" Aragorn and now "are" Frodo, or that you used to crush on one and now the other. It can mean those things, but it could also just be that as a teenager you were working on different issues. That's one way fictional characters aren't like real people: they don't change. *We* change, and they look different because of it.

Comments

[ex-lonicera600.livejournal.com]

I feel out of balance with the world, and that's probably why I often find Draco and Pansy refreshing. Not because they're better people than the main characters, but because they do sometimes say what I'm thinking, like that Hagrid's a menace or Dumbledore is a whacko.

I remember quite clearly when I first read SS that I found Harry's behaviour towards Draco at Madam Malkin's strange. He sees this boy and instantly dislikes him - Draco hasn't even said a word then - and when the boy tries to talk to him he totally rejects him in a way you would think rather rude and unfriendly if this was NOT Harry Potter, hero of the book.

Later in the train he humiliates Draco, but I could accept this better because Draco said some things that would clearly annoy Harry as we know him (although I didn't think them so outrageous).

Of course their relationship deteriorated from then and I was kind of stuck in the middle between two people I liked and could understand both, but who would insult each other whenever they meet.

But I could never see Draco as a bad person, because he was so honest. Potter rejected him and now Draco screamed bloody murder. If he were a DE in training and truly evil, wouldn't he have said, 'Oh, Potter, you're quite right about Hagrid and the Weasleys and everything, sorry I couldn't see it your way.' In other words wouldn't he have lied and schemed and 'acted' friendly while following his agenda of bringing Harry down (always simpler from the inside, you know).

What tipped me over the edge in Draco's and the Slytherins' favour was Dumbledore's shabby treatment of them at the end of term-feast (the house cup business). I had to like them and take their side because obviously no one else did (in the book).

Moreover when someone acts strangely - and running around being annoying to almost everybody IS NOT normal behaviour - it's natural to ask: Why? Why does he do it? Instead of just nodding and saying, Oh, yes, evil git. Drop dead!

Clearly someone who hurts other people is hurting something awful himself. And at his age you simply cannot expect him to get over this state of mind all by himself. So, if even his creator does not do him justice and will not give him any chances I have to stick loyally to him even if I cannot help him.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the honesty is the thing that doesn't excuse what he does but makes you sort of wonder why the problem isn't addressed. It's not like Draco's behavior is hidden, and it's especially odd that Dumbledore can casually say that he and Harry remind him of James and Severus when that didn't turn out so well. I mean, even if Draco couldn't be fixed completely as a person or be friends with Harry but I'd think it would be worth it to improve him a bit. I don't think he could get any worse.

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

I keep feeling that I'm repeating myself ad naudseum, on the Draco issue, so I think I'll just do it properly this time and copy the first answer I wrote on one of those "Why do you like Draco?" topics ;-):

I’ve always wanted to know more about him, in fact I think he’s awoken my curiosity to a level that no other peripheral character, save Snape, has. Though I realise I’ll never know everything about him, or what he really thinks and feels, I still want to find/figure out, as much as I possibly can. I *want* to understand him. I want to know what made him the way he is. I want to know why he acts the way he does, and thinks the way he thinks. And especially, I want to have *my own* perception of Draco, a perception of him that’s not entirely shared by Harry, but a more objective one. I wish to have him figured out by the end of the series.

I have five favourite characters, and I love all them for different reasons. All these five, have as characters one thing in common, however, and that is that they all feel very real to me: I have met persons like every single one of them in real life, including Draco.

This is one reason why I can’t see Draco as “evil”, at least not yet. There are definately signs that he might *become* evil, but so far he is too similar to the kids I used to know, to label him as such. I highly doubt *they* were evil. Mean, nasty, snobby, occasionally downright cruel? Yes. Racist, or otherwise bigoted? Sometimes, yes. Tendencies to bullying? Absolutely. Cowards? Sure, at least some of them. Evil? Hardly, they acted like many kids do, and may very well have made decent adults.

The thing is, I’m pretty sure that had I read these books as a child, I probably would’ve projected all the loathing I had for these kids at the time, on Draco, and would therefore not have liked his character one bit. I’d probably have liked to see him as a non-human entity, evil to the bone, without human feelings, existing as a character only to be punished, for me to take out my rage upon, without feeling guilty, the way I might have if he’d been a real human being. However, I’ve moved on since then, I imagine having twelve years on Harry, makes me able to read the books a bit more objectively, than I would have at his age. ;-)

The fact is: Draco has helped me reconcile with the kids from my childhood. I find his petty, and often lame, insults highly amusing, because I can look back at similar instants in my own life, and laugh at them. While I remember what it felt like, and can certainly understand why the trio find him obnoxious, I keep finding myself thinking that Draco’s attempts at grabbing every opportunity to insult Harry or his friends, are simply pathetic. The obsessive way he guards the trio marks him as a loser, who really has nothing better to do in life. It's really sad, when you think about it. Why on earth did I ever let myself be intimidated by kids like this?

So I feel sorry for him, because I can simply not believe that a child (or now teenager) who behaves like Draco can be truly happy. I keep thinking that he’s really a very lonely person. Why this constant hunger for everyone’s attention? Doesn’t he get enough of it at home? Or is his attention-seeking making up for something else that’s missing? Sometimes I even get the feeling that his provocations of Harry or his friends are some very weird and scr*wed up way of making their acquaintance.

// Anyway, these reasons pretty much still stand, but I've since found that I identify with him more than I had imagined. I think it's his thirst of approval, and constant frustration, that I find easiest to relate to.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I wonder how I would have responded to him if I read the books as a kid. The spoiled bully character isn't a new thing. I remember getting a kick out of Flossie and her gang in the Blossom Culp books. She was the mean girl who wasn't as cool as the girl she picked on, but I think she (and Alexander, the male lead who was also a bit of a brat) were handled with much more affection by the author even when they were being mean.

I suppose what's different here is that everything is so life and death, and when you link this to this kid you have to question exactly what the connection is. And I think you're right that the more he stays like this as he gets older it starts to stop being a jerk and start beginning to seem like somebody with some serious mental problems.

I love the suggestion that his provocations are a screwed up way of trying to make the Trio's acquaintance, and I don't think it's as strange as it sounds. I remember in the Q&A with potterstinks and just_harry on Nocturne Alley (I don't know if you read that rpg but I think potterstinks is one of the best, most canoical incarnations of Draco ever, and his player's developed him very slowly over years of gametime), when someone asked him about Harry becoming friends he said that throughout first year he sort of thought they were friends.

It's funny, because the books of course make it seem like it's normal to make an enemy at 11 and hate him more at 16, but it's just as common to be friends with someone you hated at 11 when you're 16. In a small school with a small class, it's hard keeping up that kind of neverending animosity!

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming that if you're a child reading these (depending of course on your specific age, maturity level, personality and reading habits), it's very easy to get locked-in the Harry POV, so to speak. For instance, you see Harry as he sees himself, a lost little boy, who's not terribly special, with experiences of being bullied and abused at home, etc, so you sort of see Draco as the mean, popular kid, who picks on those below him. But if you distance yourself from the Harry POV, you realise that this cannot be how most people at Hogwarts view the Harry/Draco rivalry. Harry is usually the most popular kid in school, and even at the times people distrust him (the heir of Slytherin, OoP), or most people shun him (the Triwizard tournament), he still has friends, he's never a geek, no matter what people think of him, they always seem to respect him on some level. Maybe it's because of his history and fame, but I think it goes deeper than that, it has to do with his personality, he's never, in all his years at Hogwarts, taken any kind of shit, and people know this, and will never see him as a Neville-type of person. For this reason, I think Draco is only ever truly a bully to Neville, and that's only in their first year. To say that Harry is being bullied by Draco, is almost an insult to anyone who has ever been really bullied. Draco has never had enough power to bully Harry, or anyone in the trio, really. If Harry has any experiences with true bullying, it's from Dudley.

Oh, and I agree that "potterstinks" is one of the absolute best fanon-impersonations of Draco. :-D It was quite a while since I last checked it out, but I used to follow it quite frequently. Not really sure I remember that comment (though it rings a faint bell), and I have to ask what the Q&A section is. Do you mean it's somewhere, where people not participating in the game can ask the characters questions?

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

Was there supposed to be a link in this (so I could see where it started)? Cause I'm very interested in the topic but a bit confused...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh for goodness, sakes it looks like the link I put in didn't go in. It must be confusing. (Though it may be confusing anyway because I'm thinking out loud...)

This was the original exchange. (http://www.journalfen.net/community/fandom_wank/334184.html?thread=19813224#t19813224)

[froda-baggins.livejournal.com]

*Shrug* Draco doesn't particularly interest me as a character. He hasn't developed enough in canon for me to take much of a liking to him.

If I were to learn more about his motivations, particularly his home life (the little glimpse we get of him with his father in CoS is tantalizing, but a little frustrating because it's so damn short), I would probably be more inclined to analyse him.

Still, I can see where you're coming from. I don't hate Draco by any means, because I, too, had experiences with people like him in school, and I, too, now understand that there is usually a reason for that kind of behavior.

It's just...JKR has given us so little to go on, I have a hard time grasping anything. So I tend to focus on characters that I know more about.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I totally understand. This is partially why the huge reaction surprises me. I get why everybody isn't interested in the character--I'm not entirely sure why I am--but I was surprised at people getting angry that people were interested in him, probably because he's so underdeveloped.

[froda-baggins.livejournal.com]

Though I have a hard time understanding wank in general. Just over-inflated egos, I guess. ;)

Though, I suppose you could say my disinterest includes most of the students. I tend to like the adults better, in terms of analysis and fic-writing. Hard to say why that is, really.

Though I really like Ginny, Neville and Luna. Heh.

But Snape interests me more. *Especially* after OotP. That man has more...*stuff* than even I imagined lol.

[ljash.livejournal.com]

Oh, so much in there. Yet I'm caught up in your D1 and D2 examples. I remember people who picked on me mercilessly in grade school and junior high. I never had a chance to see other sides of them at the time. I'm not sure what I would have thought. The only thing comparable is that during 4th grade two boys picked on me all year and I swore with every bit of my 9-year-old self that I would hate them forever, and then when I was 16 one of them ended up being a friend of my boyfriend. When I met him again, I got over it in about five minutes. But it did take me five minutes. I only saw him a few times so it was mostly a matter of getting over the pettiness of swearing forever when you're nine. If I'd know him more, though, I might have wondered if he remembered any of it or what he thought of it. Though he had really been the sidekick of the two so perhaps there weren't any answers there.

What you said of your four reactions intruiged me. I wonder if I would feel schadenfreude if I saw Alexa run crying from a room because her father was there. I might have. Yet I have a sense that stretches a long way into the past about how those things are on different levels; teasing and tormenting are on a different plane from having a father who makes you run crying out of the room and isn't allowed near you. Did I have that sense at ten? I think I've had that sense for as long as I've understood what that second level really is.

Sometimes, if I put myself in someone else's place and they are suffering terribly, the compassion hurts so much that I do forgive everything that they do, even though I guess I shouldn't. I do this too much, maybe, because of course they don't have the right to shit their pain on some innocent bystander.

But, see, in fiction, those questions don't have to matter. I've gotten into arguments about Snape that are about these things. And of course Snape's behavior is not excusable or dismissable. He shouldn't be allowed to roam around loose tormenting Hogwarts students the way he does. But because it's just a story, I can focus on some parts and not others. I can read the books and wonder about the story of Snape, and everyone else drifts to being a minor character. And when I do that, I am deeply moved. Maybe more moved than I am by Harry's story.

I'm not really moved by Draco in canon. We can come up with all kinds of theories and backstory, and we can create a moving story that is given life only by the words in the text, but I wouldn't say that story really exists in canon. I find Draco moving only when I read the stories with an eye on an added character of Rowling-the-god, who creates and judges and squashes Draco under her heel because that is his use and his purpose. To me, that meta-reading is bound up in the blanket dismissal of Slytherins that comes across from Harry, the narration, and the society of Hogwarts in general.

I have to admit that on my first read I did not really notice the House cup being stolen from the Slytherins in that particularly cruel way. I didn't notice because I hadn't really cared about who got the House cup. It may have been important to the characters but I really didn't care about it. (Possibly because I could see that the awarding and detracting of House points was arbitrary and ridiculous and that caring about its outcome was to submit yourself to an undeserving authority.) I was too busy in that scene being happy that Neville got 10 points for trying to stop Harry, Hermione, and Ron. I had felt very sorry for Neville in that scene. I was glad for what Dumbledore said about him.

(as you'll notice, this is all quite rambling and random and not exactly a reply to your post. :) I actually have a reply to a specific quote but this is already too long so I have to split it up.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Totally agree on the meta story with Draco--you're right, it does add dimensions to the character that probably would not be there otherwise in canon. If he got sympathy in the books I probably wouldn't feel the need to take up the cause!

The only thing comparable is that during 4th grade two boys picked on me all year and I swore with every bit of my 9-year-old self that I would hate them forever, and then when I was 16 one of them ended up being a friend of my boyfriend. When I met him again, I got over it in about five minutes.

I remember another boy who used to be mean to me because we were both friends with this one family of kids and I think we both saw each other as a threat. I was better friends with them, I think, so maybe that's why he was ruder to me. Anyway, I only really knew him when I was about 6 and then when I was 12 we were going to visit this family who had moved away. My mother suggested (I'm not sure why because it's not like something we really would have done) that we take this boy, who went to a different grade school so I didn't deal with him much now. I said absolutely not--I hated him. My mother said, "He was 6 years old then." I said, "Not to ME. He's just Andrew to me--why should I like him now?"

I was sort of right and wrong, really. I do think that the personality you have at 6 is you, and that was really what I was referring to. Not that he would tease me now but that he was a little jerk and so probably still was. But also of course at 16 a person is going to have better social skills and no longer have whatever reasons they once did for picking on you.

In some ways with Harry and Draco types in canon they might really be friends by this point because they're two leader boys in their class--it would make sense for them to deal with each other civilly, respecting their positions with their respective houses. Sometimes I wonder if it's Harry's refusal to do that that exacerbates things.

It's really more discussions that move me about Draco, actually. Canon often just makes me feel icky--like watching him get turned into a slug just makes me feel like I'm watching somebody tease an animal or something. It's more demeaning than moving and I think that's the point, that we shouldn't be moved. So it's only after the story's over and I can think about it from the other side that it's moving.

Also ITA on the house points thing--it always amazes me anybody in the school submits to that. Who cares? I'd think.

I'm trying to remember exactly how I felt that day at camp...see, nobody knew what was going on at first. I think she wasn't in whatever activity in the morning, then at lunch she either got up and ran out or ran in to get something and was sort of crying and ran out. So I knew something was up but had no idea what it was. I can't remember if I found out before or after that her father was there. So I never saw her with her father. I could watch it sort of distantly. It was probably more like a story happening. But it's always a complicated experience, I think, seeing someone you don't like brought low. Harry gets that in the pensieve with Snape, but that's even a bit different because Snape is an adult. The pensieve cuts him down to size from the very first because he's suddenly a teenager, so he's robbed of power right at the get-go.

[ljash.livejournal.com]

It's very concerned with justice in a way that I just am not--that's why it's so made up of power struggles. There are victims, and bullies, and heroes who protect the victims from bullies. Everyone is supposed to aspire to the hero who protects the victim from bullies--just like in CS Lewis, Peter the Magnificent is elevated above Edmund the Just (where just, imo, refers to wisdom and mercy instead of pardon and punishment).

That's interesting... maybe that core of Rowling's ethics that I find so repellant is actually a hard sense of justice. My, I wonder what that implies about my theories of justice... But yes, that's why the Brave and exaulted higher than the Kindhearted. When I look around, I value the kind because I think they can reduce the cruelty in the world and give people a chance to do things differently. But when she looks, the kind are furniture; they are good because they aren't bullies but otherwise unnoticable, or they're people to protect. It's the brave who are good because they have the balls to stop and punish the bullies. And the bullies, in their way, are also furniture.

(Except for Snape. Snape gives me hope. Although even with Snape, she still writes him as mentally unhinged. She might make his motives complex and make us squirm for hating him, but she still doesn't write him with much compassion. Which is actually fascinating.)

And (this is almost a post note) I've always kind of liked that Edmund is not valued as highly as Peter. I like it because I like that the value of Edmund the Just, the more quiet and thoughtful, is almost a secret thing. Let Peter have the limelight--the limelight never did the thoughtful any good. Most of the time people need a leader like Peter, who rallies them cheerfully and tells them what's what.

Although.... was it you who was getting into all those discussions about Frodo and Sam, and talking to many people who admired Sam above Frodo? And the idea that Frodo wasn't valued was frustrating, but in a small way it was exhilarating, because it made him yours, it made your admiration of him special, which was kind of a silly thing? I can't recall if that was you or not. I feel that too, and maybe it's a little petty. I might have a little of that when it comes to Edmund. Yet I think there's still a little something to that: If you can see deeper into the characters and admire Edmund for his graveness, his quietness, his wisdom, and even his darkness, then that's something of note. And if most people would rather admire Peter because of his bravery and shinging faultlessness, well, that's something to note as well. CS Lewis wrote it for both people--Peter was the highest king but he mentioned Edmund the just, the quiet, grave one, and if you had a mind to look past Peter and notice Edmund, you could do that. Rowling doesn't give us that. She doesn't give us anything remotely like that. She almost goes out of her way to say the opposite. And that's something I dislike in her.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hee! Yes, that was totally me talking about Frodo and I feel exactly the same way about Edmund. I really wouldn't want him to be the exalted one. I almost never go for that type of guy.

I don't know if my thoughts on HP's justice are correct, but they seem that way, somehow. I remember thinking in OotP that I probably wouldn't have fit in well with the DA because I'd be considered suspicious. I wouldn't have told on the group, but I have a feeling I wouldn't be considered loyal, somehow.

It's kind of interesting in this universe that while there are a lot of different characters who are good, there's not that many ways can be good. Neville, for instance, seemed always obviously a hero to me. He's very different from the other characters but his heroism is easily recognizeable--it comes when he's jumping at somebody or standing up to someone. Underneath his thoughts are very much like the other Gryffindors--he's got issues with bullies and Voldemort.

And then there's the problem is that sometimes you ge tthe feeling a good guy is just a delinquent lucky enough to be born at a time when he could use his bullying for good. You wonder if James isn't like that after he pensieve--sure he's considered a good guy, because he only bullies the bad guys. The twins are even worse--they can be downright scary but because it's supposed to be funny and they hate dark wizards (though they probably use dark magic themselves at times--it's all in good fun) they're good guys.

Snape I adore--sometimes he seems like the only character who has actually had to make a correct moral choice. The other characters were born and raised with the right ideas of right and wrong, and only had to choose how far they would go to enforce it. But Snape seems to have started out with the wrong ideas and had to come to the conclusion that they were wrong, and then live with the consequences of his actions for the rest of his life. Yet he's still basically suspicious and isn't respected by most of the Order.

I think it's probably wonderful for JKR to be writing him, because she does like him as a character and yet considers him a horrible person. This might be the reason he seems to rise above so many other characters--she has to really work to get his pov, maybe, because he "should" be somebody she hates?

[just-clodia.livejournal.com]

Like many demented people, I identify with Draco. There have been many moments when I was not a shining example of humanity. I think I would be disappointed if JKR did not beef up any of the Slytherin characters.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hey, demented people need role models too!!:-)

[moonlitpages.livejournal.com]

Hmm this what I always like about your musings, they make me furiously examine my own *laughs*. I have to agree that on a realistic level, children like Draco Malfoy and the Slytherins are not the sort of children I would have gotten along with. In fact, I knew plenty of snotty little brats who made my life miserable around 11-13 years old, horrible little rich girls who would pick on me relentlessly and screech such things as "nice shirt, where did you buy it, WALMART?". I loathed those children at the time, especially the ring leader who never seemed to like me from the moment we met, and all throughout our school careers, when she could not get her friends to screech insults at me, she would just glare at me. I remember finding out that her parents were divorced, and she was very unhappy at home, and feeling glad because I thought she deserved it.

But what I remember most, is that all save that particular one of the five girls who made my life miserable in middle school, something happened to them. What was it, you ask? They grew up. By the time I graduated highschool, three of those same girls who went to my college stopped to offer me a ride when I was trudging up from the parking pit in the rain, and were friendly and kind to me. Amazing, no? One of the characters themselves said as much in OotP, when Sirius said that _lots_ of people are idiots at the age of fifteen. I hate to think that this only applies to the children who are idiots for the right reasons-- it's alright to be an idiot, so long as you only torment the people who really deserve it anyway. I was a horrible child when I was in elementary school-- I bossed my friends around and made an overweight little girl cry because my friends and I made up juvenile songs about her living in a stable because she was so fat. Why? Because I was a child, and I was selfish, and spoiled, and I grew older, and developed a sense of empathy, and grew out of it, and I remember running into that same girl a few years ago, and we got along famously.

I feel like this has been said an awful lot before, but what I don't like about the way the Slytherin children are depicted in these books, unless there is a new perspective gained in the following books that I am desperately hoping for, is that this is an entire group of children that don't seem to have matured at all over five years, during a period when most every teenager changes dramatically to some extent. And most of all I hate the idea that because Draco Malfoy was a rotten little eleven year old brat from the moment we saw him, with a rotten family, and a rotten attitude, that he is just a throw-away child and there is no reason to show an interest in his character. I don't particularly even want him to be 'redeemed'-- I just want him and the other Slytherins to be fleshed out ,and depicted as real children, as people, like the others are. I suppose that is my investment in wanting something more to be done with our little Draco and the rest; I see so much potential in him as a character, and can't bear the thought that he is just there to be this static little bully, drifting about in the background and throwing taunts. I just want him to do something, to change in some way, for better or worse-- just go somewhere, anywhere. Even as a child, I was always fascinated with characters that change dramatically throughout the course of a story-- 'evil' characters that become 'good', 'good' characters that become 'evil', etc. I suppose it's that mutability of human nature that I've always been fascinated with, which probably says a lot about me, eh? I guess the idea of personal growth as a very fluid, non-static process has always been important to me. Go figure.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

In fact, I knew plenty of snotty little brats who made my life miserable around 11-13 years old, horrible little rich girls who would pick on me relentlessly and screech such things as "nice shirt, where did you buy it, WALMART?".

I can literally hear her even now. LOL!

I read a book called "Odd Girl Out" last year that talked about how girls are horrible to each other--not something that anybody who actually was a girl needs to read about since we have to live through it. But what you're saying is exactly true--it's I think more rare to have the same enemy at 11 as you do when you're older.

I also remember once watching Montel Williams (while I was unemployed!) and he had people confronting their bullies. There was a guy who used to be very fat in high school and this jock picked on him. Once he mooned the fat kid's mother when she came to pick him up for something. So this guy had spent the last 20 years working out and was now the kind of guy who looks like he lives at the gym and they brought on the bully, who was now a normal looking guy with a belly and a receding hairline who owned a couple of restaurants and had a family. He was actually pretty likeable.

So at first the bully couldn't even remember who this guy was. Then he finally did and when he heard the mooning story he was embarassed but laughing because it is a ridiculous story. And he genuinely apologized and said he was an idiot and what else could he say. So the other guy really wanted more satisfaction and kept going on about how he'd won and all, and Montel said to the bully, "So, who's the loser NOW?"

And the bully kind of smiled and shrugged and pointed to the other guy and said, "He is." AND HE WAS RIGHT! The other guy and Montel of course protested but the ex-bully just said, "Dude, you've been thinking of me for 20 years everyday? Because I teased you in high school? Get over it! I haven't given you a moment's thought!" It wasn't even just that this guy really was kind of pathetic for focusing on this for 20 years, but that seeing the guy in purpose you could immediately tell that this was not the evil man he had described.

Now, with Harry and Draco at least there is real bad blood between them...it's not just a case of one being an all-purpose bully who picked on everyone and the other just being a face in the crowd. But still given that they both seem to be leaders in the school it's odd they have no relationship whatsoever, and can't ever see any other sides to each other. Or at least Harry doesn't so far--Draco may very well be paying more attention to Harry and see other things.

And most of all I hate the idea that because Draco Malfoy was a rotten little eleven year old brat from the moment we saw him, with a rotten family, and a rotten attitude, that he is just a throw-away child and there is no reason to show an interest in his character.

Yes, and as you said, there's such a potential for change. Not a big fanfic angst drama, necessarily, but a surprise. As I said to ljash earlier, what's fascinating about Snape is that he seems to be one of the only characters who started out with the wrong ideas and had to learn through experience that this was wrong. It could be far more interesting and satisfying, maybe, if this was the kid that had to be the "new Malfoy," rather than the world rejoicing at the Malfoys disappearing from the face of the earth.

[butterfly.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean - I had a sorta Draco (not anywhere near as bad) and I found out quite by accident that she was a cutter, too. She never knew that I knew, I don't think, but it certainly changed the way I saw her behavior. I switched schools soon after that (unrelated issue), and out of all the people from that school, she's the one that I remember most clearly. She was horrible to me and then I saw that she was like me in a very fundamental way. So I remember her more deeply than the people that I was friends with, even.

People who cause pain tend to be in pain, I've found.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes! There's just always something going on there. I remember a girl I was sort of friends with throughout gradeschool, starting from when we were about 3, and she could sometimes be very bullying. Once for about a week in 1st grade she totally tormented me, but then other times she would be oddly vulnerable and I suspect she had some problems here and there. I didn't trust her, and I eventually didn't want to be friends with her because you never knew when she was going to be bullying or get a really bad idea (flashes back to her starting a rather large fire in my garage...) but knowing her for so long I knew there was something weird there.

I guess it's just a basic idea that if you're feeling okay you don't usually need to make somebody else feel badly. It might sound overly sweet but it's often just true!

[anehan]

You have such interesting posts, and how you do it I know not. I love your idea that people love different characters when they change themselves, and that might really explain why I didn't love the Slytherins at first, but that these days I do love them.

I must confess that when I first read PS/SS I felt good when Dumbledore stole the House Cup from the Slytherins. That tells somethign about me that I'm not proud of. At first I identified with Hermione, because she really resembles me in many ways, but that's changed. She is still one of my favourite characters, but I don't see her as myself any more. Yes, we do resemble each other, but there are also fundamental differences.

I must say that when I started to like Draco I first liked the fanon!Draco, the cool and witty one, and that I've come to learn to love the canon!Draco only gradually. I think the process started when I had to defend the Slytherins in general to my friends. I tried to explain why I didn't think it was 'the evil House'. Also, people here at livejournal have made me realize that there's so much more in Draco than I thought at first.

Perhaps I've come to like the Slytherins because I've realized I'm in many ways like them. That if I learn to accept those traits in myself (ambition, loyalty to 'my people', certain coldness and indiffence, which however doesn't mean unjustice) then I must accept them in the Slytherins.

Part of the reason I resented the Slytherins at first and liked the Gryffindors unconditionally is perhaps that I've never really learned to read critically. That wasn't taught to us at school, and I really did take the narrator at face value. It has made a great difference to learn to think myself and to realize that these books are from Harry' point of view, which isn't the most reliable one.

2. Firmly deciding that their being hurt did not excuse their hurting me--this is such a strong belief for me it drives me crazy when people accuse me of trying to "excuse" bad behavior in fictional characters. Really, I don't. I would just rather stop it than punish it.

Many people confuse 'understanding' and 'excusing'. I understand why Snape might behave the way he does, but I still don't accept his behaviour. (And although this is off-topic your point (was it yours?) about Snape being the only one who has had to make a conscious moral choice is really a good one.)

It's very concerned with justice in a way that I just am not--that's why it's so made up of power struggles. There are victims, and bullies, and heroes who protect the victims from bullies.

Hmm, that's interesting, and I must say I don't subscribe to that school either. I believe in justice, of course, in a way that if you murder someone you must be punished for it, but I also believe in mercy. I'm afraid that the HP books will end with the 'light' side winning and punishing the 'bad' people, only because they were at the different side of a civil war (and that really happens in real life, happened at least in Finland after the civil war in 1918-1919, I think), and I can't see anything positive to come from that. It will only divide the Wizarding World even more, and at some point the tension is bound to break out. I believe trying to heal the breach would be much more efficient, and luckily the Sorting Hat's song gives some hope. (After all, in Finland the breach between the two parties of the civil war didn't start to heal before they had a common enemy in World War II.)

[anehan]

(ambition, loyalty to 'my people', certain coldness and indiffence, which however doesn't mean unjustice)

I forgot elitism. I consider elitism, ambition and the willingness to take the power the most defining Slytherin traits. Slytherins base their elitism on purity of blood, but it could as well be based on education or intelligence.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You have such interesting posts, and how you do it I know not.

Thanks! Because seriously, when I write this stuff I think maybe I'm just strange for devoting so much time and energy to it. Which might be true, but I do always hope it's interesting to anybody who takes the time to read it!

I must confess that when I first read PS/SS I felt good when Dumbledore stole the House Cup from the Slytherins. That tells somethign about me that I'm not proud of.

Well, the book does set it up as a good thing, and I think when I first read it it seemed fairly harmless. Had there been no further HP books I probably would still think of it that way. But seeing how much anger continued to build over the years, and how the favoritism became such a big thing that could have tragic consequences, it started to be more sinister. When the Slytherins are possibly at risk for becoming DEs, and there's the example of Snape walking the school, Dumbledore's methods of ignoring the Slytherins' behavior except to occasionally make it clear he doesn't like them anymore than anyone else starts to seem like a serious mistake, like he's trying to make them DEs, or that their futures don't matter at all. It's not that someone can blame someone else for choosing to be a DE, but if I worked at the school I think I'd feel some responsibility if I saw all this happening and did nothing.

Part of the reason I resented the Slytherins at first and liked the Gryffindors unconditionally is perhaps that I've never really learned to read critically. That wasn't taught to us at school, and I really did take the narrator at face value.

That's really fascinating! And I do think that discussing canon on boards and things like that is probably a great way to learn to read critically. It makes you have to learn to look at canon for what is a fact and what is coming through an unreliable narrator. You have to think about why you've drawn a certain conclusion, and then you can sometimes see how the author's made you do that. Plus hearing other people's interpretations makes you see it's not as straightforward as it always seems when you first read it yourself!

Many people confuse 'understanding' and 'excusing'. I understand why Snape might behave the way he does, but I still don't accept his behaviour. (And although this is off-topic your point (was it yours?) about Snape being the only one who has had to make a conscious moral choice is really a good one.)

Yup, that's me! That's what I love about Snape--he's the not-nice person who seems to be suffering for making a moral choice. To me this makes him much more interesting than other characters who were either raised to believe the right things so never had to question it, or those who were even forced into the right side by circumstance. Sometimes when you look at the more vicious good guys, like Pensieve James (and the other Pensieve Marauders) and the Twins it starts to seem like they're not really heroes, but bullies who just happen to have been born into a time when their bad behavior can be channeled into something productive. History is probably full of such people.

I'm afraid that the HP books will end with the 'light' side winning and punishing the 'bad' people, only because they were at the different side of a civil war (and that really happens in real life, happened at least in Finland after the civil war in 1918-1919, I think),

Yes! That's just what I fear too because the situation you describe is so common. Look at how the need to punish Germany so absolutely after WW1 contributed to WW2. It seems like Slytherin's always been some kind of scapegoat since the founder left--and by that I don't mean to make them out as big victims since obviously they hate the other houses just as much and before Harry got to the school they appeared to be dominant in terms of winning Quidditch and the house cup. But the fact that Hagrid says so casually that there was never a bad wizard that didn't come out of Slytherin says to me that they have been saddled with the "bad" image. Meanwhile bad behavior can get overlooked in other houses (Gryffindor especially) as just boys having fun.

[fiera-316.livejournal.com]

I am going to be what I think is the rebel here and admit this...Harry is my favourite character. It's really true, I just love the boy, however immoral-but-moral he thinks he is being at any given time. It's an unpopular opinion, sure, but this entry really made me think. Because while I once thought I loved him because he was the "main character, poor orphaned boy, so sweet sometimes" etc, etc... I think it is almost unnerving, because I don't love Harry because he relates to me in any way. It's just that he is the boy who has been held with relatives who hate him and whom he hates in return, for his whole life, and been constantly picked on and discriminated throughout his childhood (running from bullies in elementary school, etc). And yet he is, for the most part, fairly well adjusted and doesn't complain on-and-on about his life (well, until fifth year, and considering all he's undergone, that is a pretty good record). He's actually had a similar life to one that you would expect bullies to evolve from, and yet he doesn't do this. I don't know, sometimes I'm aware that he REALLY needs to grow up, but when I balance his five years of security and status at Hogwarts against his eleven years of discrimination with the Dursleys, no matter how much of a brat the kid can be, the admiration always wins out and I love him, and...well, I just wish I could do that. That Harry is for the most part well adjusted after his childhood at the Dursleys is utterly unrealistic, I've realized that long ago, but on some level, part of me wishes that I could be like that, that I could NOT want to lash out at the world and still "fight for what's 'right'" and actually KNOW what was right and wrong after being in these circumstances. And I know it's unattainable, of course (because again, it's not realistic that Harry should be this way, even if he DID decide to build his character around complete defiance of the Dursleys -- which is a strange decision for a kid to make, anyway). But that's what the draw is, that unattainable level of....not-messed-up-ness (wah, I'm sorry, I couldn't find the word!). And of course, Harry is far from perfect, which makes it slightly more reassuring, but on the whole...it's strange, because honestly, I think I would relate more to...well, maybe not a Slytherin (because personally, I don't think that I would be able to stand up to the prejudice directed agaginst them; they always fight back, I don't think I would be able to, which is why I admire them). I don't think I would identify completely with any Slytherin (since OMG me too, I've gone through HORRIBLE bullying experiences), but at least I think I would have a streak similar to theirs, similar to Draco's -- I would be totally the one to try underhanded things in an act of desperation, and the way I relate to this is why I think I fell in love with Draco around PoA (what with the Dementor thing and the "grabbing-the-Firebolt" -- both acts of desperation, IMO, though that couldn't have made it right, either). But I think I love Harry because I just can't be that, I wouldn't be able to be so sure that I was doing the right thing, I wouldn't be able to be so...level, I guess, after all he/I'd gone through. *shrugs* Harry-love is somehow so hard to explain. But it's just me.

In what seems to be a huge contrast, my next-favourite character IS Draco; the B&B scene really got to me, too (I mean, my parents, not to say anything bad about them, but they DO sometimes put me down, especially about my grades. But at least with them, there's always that assurance that they do it because they love me. I find myself sincerely doubting that Lucius is the type of parent to give out this reassurance, even if he MAY feel it. And this is another small part of what affects Draco). I too, doubt I would be friends with them, because they remind me vaguely of the bullies who picked on me through grade school. Grades four through eight, the entire time ^^* (But the bullies were mostly boys, and though I have grown out of the perspective since, back then I remember just drawing the conclusion that "boys are stupid", and leaving it at that).

[fiera-316.livejournal.com]

This brings up another interesting things about bullies and how people relate to them-- maybe the thing is that, when you're actually being bullied (and constantly), it's much less easier to think of possible motivation than it is when you are more removed from the situation? I'm really hating to admit it right now, because it's making me feel petty, but I knew at the time when I was being bullied that the particular boy in question's family was a mess, AND that he was a drug addict, and I remember trying to say "well, no one deserves that, I feel really sorry for him"...but this knowledge didn't seem to matter beans when he called me an extremely offensive term to someone of my background. And I would have badly wanted to throw what I knew back in his face (only I was really shy, so of course I couldn't >_<).
But that could be part of the reason why nobody in HP (at least, nobody in Harry's POV) is finding out what the reason behind Draco's "bullying" is, because when one is actually being bullied, their mindframes are actually stuck in reactions 1 and 2. And yeah, Harry witnessed the scene in B&B (in fact, he was even there for the "ferret" scene *growls*), but through this whole time, Draco was still deriding him and calling Hermione "Mudblood" and so on...I don't know, again I would think Harry should be better than this and try to see past it to find out WHY Draco's doing it (if only to just make it stop)...but it's a bit hard to try to tame something that's baring it's fangs straight at you ^^* (do not ask where that analogy came from -_-**).




See, Draco absolutely fascinates me; for many reasons, but for this particular post I'll bring up the one most relating to it. On the one hand, I can almost relate to him, because I see the majority of his more cruel acts (the things he actually physically attempts to do, and always gets thwarted) are out of a sense of desperation, almost, and I can admit that I would probably do the same thing if I were in his situation. But he reminds me of the bullies I once knew -- although they could hurt with actions as well, much better than Draco ever does or ever could, their most effective weapons were verbal -- this, too, happens to be Draco's more effective method when he goes at the Trio: his derision and verbal attacks (especially the ones about Harry's parents) are the ones which stick the most and affect Harry the most (as well as Hermione and Ron). Lol, but not his name-calling ^^, just the things he says. I don't think I even remember a time when they almost attacked him over one of his actions (although Harry came close with the "Potter Stinks" badges). Harry and Draco haven't had any time at all to grow up away from each other, it's always a given in the series: Malfoy is going to be right there when I get back, rah, rah, time to knock him down again. It would be interesting to see what would happen if JKR could change this.

So yeah, this is the way he reminds me of the bullies I once knew (I fight anyone who calls Draco a bully in the physical sense, but there are verbal-bullies too, which is the category I think Draco most falls into). But with him, especially when looking at the text and deciphering his more vulnerable moments, his desperation to prove himself to his father, I feel more of an inclination to actually hug him and not let him go until I find out what exactly it is in his mind. He makes me realize that there really IS more to bullies, that they CAN just be insecure children, and I don't feel so horrible for not recognizing it before. This is where I think you're exactly on the mark: ... they don't change. *We* change, and they look different because of it.

Whole lot of talking, and did any of it make sense? And OMG I love you -- Edmund's my favourite character, too! I've always felt he was the most REAL Pevensie sibling, he showed how people can be taken in by temptation and the way children can be manipulated, but he was just a lost child in the shadow of his older brother. Him and Susan, they've always intrigued me the most (Susan because I've been forever curious as to WHY she never returned to Narnia with the rest).