Real life vs. whatever this is

[sistermagpie]

I am totally behind on my flist, and it was really interesting to read today and see some posts about people making first-time real life connections and other posts about fandom and whether or not it's like real life. My own quick RL update is that last night I went to my very first Seder, which was really fun, thanks in large part to the company. It was an all-inclusive night, since we had a Seder while listening to hymns from 'O Brother Where Art Thou,' before Druid Card readings. For me the night will always be summed up with the line "Sister Magpie ate Gefilte fish?? And I missed it?" said in with a shocked expression.

Yes, SM traditionally has a very limited number of foods she eats and very few figure into the story of Exodus. (And I still do, thanks.) Today I am exhausted (why does the subway always take so long from Brooklyn at night?) but it was so worth it.

So then there's this fandom thing, and people feeling bad. Is it like real life or not?

One thing that struck me reading comments about BNFs were first, who exactly are the BNFs? I could certainly name a few that I feel confident are them, but I suspect there are hoards of them out there I've never heard of, so how B are the N's of these F's exactly? My second question would be...why exactly do people want to be friends with them--I mean, in an impersonal way as opposed to liking BNF #32 because you find things in her posts you like? Mira touched on part of it in when she wrote about how for some people who they know is who they are. Some people are only defined by their social contacts because they never developed an independent sense of self. Imagine how volatile that kind of person would have to be, and you probably understand half the wanks in fandom. These must be the people who are friends with people they don't trust not to betray them, something I do not understand.

But then there's this other question that never goes away, about whether fandom friendships are real. A lot of people said how people shouldn't substitute fandom for real life, how it just wasn't like real relationships, it was just fandom, and how it was for people who couldn't socialize in public. Now, I'm no social butterfly. I'm fairly introverted in real life, but I'm not socially inept. I'm fine speaking in front of people, with making small talk (it's tedious but I can do it), with meeting new people. The internet doesn't appeal to me because I can't talk to people in real life or need to be anonymous, it's because, I think, I can interact when I want to and withdraw when I need to recharge. Being around people for too long is draining for me in ways the Internet is not.

But still, there's the stereotype of the geek who's always on line, suggesting he uses this medium to make up for his inability to interact with "real people." But one of the things that amuses me about the Internet is that it simply changes what popularity is based on. I find it funny that a girl who might be the most popular in her school would crash and burn in something like fandom because her skills are based more on looks or a bubbliness or the right clothing or being sexy, and online all those things are taken away. Now she has to actually say something that interests somebody somewhere. I've never understood those people who want to recreate boring small talk on line: I live in X place and I have 2 cats and a dog and I've been married for X years...

So yes, in fandom you do have a strange social system where, perhaps, someone like me probably seems more "dominating," for lack of a better word, than I do in real life. But I don't see that as getting a pass on social skills. To me it just seems like I'm using a different skill here, just as being able to flirt is a skill. To be known on the net, it seems to me, you really just need a personality that comes out in your writing. It can even be an awful personality. You just can't be vapid/bland--a quality that could get you elected homecoming queen in real life!

We act like this kind of interaction is so modern, that it's never been done before, but didn't letter writing used to be, like, an art? Sure most people never left the place where they grew up and died next to the same small group of people they were born with, but when somebody did go away letters were important. (And then there's those families like the one in Clarissa who wrote 9 long letters a day to the person in the room next door.) One's personality in writing is surely just as much a personality as the one in person, isn't it? It's like Anne Frank says in one of her last entries: "Will anyone know the true me?" By "the true me" she means the one in the diary, the one who is famous. Not the one we hear references to in her entries, who is boy-mad and silly and whom nobody takes seriously. That girl faded away--we don't know her.

Finally, there's this "it's only fandom" question. Now, I find it as strange as the next person that someone thinks it's important for them to have So-and-so the fanfic author answer their comments or friend them. With all of lj out there there are probably a lot of people with whom you would truly click, so why want somebody just for their name? And why would anyone want to be friends with someone who just wants something from them-because that kind of thing tends to come through as a vibe to the other person? (Upon reading some of the recent "Sean Astin is rude" threads I was totally reminded of the "stuck up BNF" threads.) So yes, I think a firm grip on reality and a proper sense of one's relation to others is always a good thing.

However. Sometimes people act like "it's only fandom" means anybody should be able to say anything without any normal repercussions, but what planet does that happen on? I mean, on what planet does someone read that they are ugly, stupid, fat, boring, whiny or useless and react no differently than they would to an essay on the average annual rainfall in Hogsmeade? Whether they react maturely ("Well, I don't care what that person thinks...and perhaps I will take a closer look at this area and see if I can improve it") or a violent way ("Everybody hates me and it's the world's fault and I will kill you all."), you still had to hear somebody call you names and that can suck.

That's the idea behind name-calling anyway, isn't it? You have to make the person think this is part of who they are so that there's no getting away from it. It's a fundamentally different activity than, say, complaining about somebody who drives you crazy. That's far more rational: "It bugs me so much when she says this yet does that because..." As opposed to everything out of the person's mouth or in her head or on her
body sucks.

lj is being completely evil about this entry. Hopefully this one will work....

Comments

[saturniia.livejournal.com]

It works all right, but you might want to edit it.

What are BNFs? I'm thinking "Best 'Net Friend", but I'm not positive.

[anehan]

BNF = Big Name Fan, meaning someone who is famous in fandom. However, one person's BNF may be other person's 'who?'.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I admit I was playing around with it and then finally just threw it up...do you mean edit it because it's just very difficult to follow at this point? I'll go over it now. (Sort of worried that would happen--bad posting when tired!)

BNFs=Big Name Fans. "Famous" people within a fandom.

Thanks!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Good lord, I just read it over--I am so amazed anyone made it through this entry with all the half sentences that got blended into others etc. I tried to make it a little better with editing.

[franzeska]

I've totally been reacting in a "get a life!" way, and you make very good points. I think what makes me have this reaction is that a lot of people who complain about fandom seem to believe that fandom is here to provide them with a certain type of emotional support that they lack in real life. Some people are geographically isolated, it's true, but for many of them, I suspect that the problems are self created. They don't need the love of BNFs; they need the help of a therapist, a more loving parent, or some friends who can hold their hand instead of ::hold::ing it.
I agree with you that they are missing out in this BNF quest. Most of the people whose ljs I enjoy the most are just people I met randomly through some link to a essay or ranting.
I do understand people's complaints that the people they know in RL do not like their fandom obsessions, but then again I don't really understand because I have always--always--been able to find like-minded fans. Even in the most unlikely of places, I have either converted people or had them randomly divulge their secret nerdliness to me.

I can't help but feel that the real problem is that there are a great many sad and lonely people in the world. Full stop.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think what makes me have this reaction is that a lot of people who complain about fandom seem to believe that fandom is here to provide them with a certain type of emotional support that they lack in real life.

And they're pretty much always going to be disappointed. I mean, I have met people through fandom who are good friends--one of them was at that Seder. When it turned out we lived down the block from each other and had other things besides fandom in common, it was a natural.

I think that's why I'm also always surprised at people looking for support on the net. I understand if you're having a bad day and you put it in your lj of course it's nice to know that the people who read you regularly care about it, can maybe say something encouraging. But I'm always thrown by, say, the person who announces lots of personal angst or excitement on a messageboard where they're sometimes not even that well known, claiming they want to share it with everyone they feel so close to. That always makes me feel very awkward, because I feel like I'm expected to pretend to care about this is some personal way when I don't know the person. On the net you can put out things that say, "This sucky thing happened to me," and get people commisserating, but you can't expect a bunch of strangers to care that it happened to *you* unless you've gotten to know them fairly well.

Even in the most unlikely of places, I have either converted people or had them randomly divulge their secret nerdliness to me.

I have the same experience--I think a lot of depends on exactly how you talk about it. I've been able to have intense discussions with someone I met through another fandom about the fandoms we're in now. Neither of us has read/seen the other's canon, but we can express ourselves in such a way that that isn't necessary. If you can explain what you find interesting about something, the other person can usually understand that, I think. What you can't expect is for people in real life to be as emotionally involved in the thing as you are, I guess. And that seems to be what some people want.

I don't really understand that because it's not really what I need. I'm already getting something emotional out of the canon by connecting to the characters. I enjoy talking about it with others, but I don't feel like I have to be emotionally connected in a group.

I can't help but feel that the real problem is that there are a great many sad and lonely people in the world. Full stop.

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

Great post! Yes, I think it's very important to keep a healthy balance between not losing yourself in fandom politics and acknowledging that virtual relationships can be real and ought to be treated accordingly.

And I've thought a lot recently about whom we look for online, how we find one another, what becomes appealing and it certainly is amazing how one's writing abilities become central in this medium whereas looks all but disappear. I wonder how many of us are exactly the same, though, IRL and online. I think I pretty much am (you'd have to ask some of my recent roommates :-) and most of the (admittedly few) people I've met and talked to on the phone were pretty similar. Is age an issue?

And just because it was such a gorgeous paragraph and it seems to fit, here is brooklinegirl's account of Connexions:

It's just - later, the last night of the con, we were talking about how with slash cons like this, we worship intellectuality over everything else. So when you meet someone you admire, like Kat, for their sheer stunning talent when it comes to writing (her fic, her LJ), it's just - it's like a turn-on, you know, that's what gets to you. It's not how pretty or how well-dressed or anything like that - it's her brain that gets you all hot and bothered.

What it comes down to, at a place like a slash con, is what makes you so enamoured of these women has nothing to do with how pretty or skinny or built they are. It has everything to do with how freaking smart they are. That's the turn on, the major, major turn on, and Byob summed it up with a quote from a film (I can't remember which one!), where you say in tones of awe, with appropriate hand gestures "Her brain was this big" and - yeah. That was us, this weekend.

And isn't that really the biggest difference and the most exciting thing about online communication...all of us seem to be vested more in our brains than our looks...and to find people who feel the same way is great!

[anehan]

And I've thought a lot recently about whom we look for online, how we find one another, what becomes appealing and it certainly is amazing how one's writing abilities become central in this medium whereas looks all but disappear.

I've been thinking about this, too, and like isiscolo said some time ago, livejournal is all about content. I think it's wonderful that here I'm able to find people who share my interests, and who don't mind debating some obscure detail in Harry Potter (*grin*) or generally just discussing things somewhat intelligently (like in this thread).

Certainly the first impression counts here, too, as it does in real life, but here it's all about written word. The first impression comes from the appearance of the writing, like sufficient contrast between the text and the background in a journal, and whether the text is properly capitalization and divided into paragraphs for easy of reading and so on. But after that it's all about what we say and how we say it. It's refreshening.

I wonder how many of us are exactly the same, though, IRL and online.

I think I at least am somewhat different online than in real life. Here I'm more confident and outspoken, whereas in real life I'm more of an introvert and insecure. Of course, the insecurities don't disappear anywhere here, but they are easier to overcome. I think it overcoming them online may actually help overcoming them in real life.

Then there's the question of language, which of course applies to only those whose native language is not English. I suspect I'm actually different when I use English than when I use Finnish. However, it's difficult to say for sure since I use English online and Finnish in real life, and so my online identity is very much an English one and my real life identity a Finnish one.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

What a great quote!!

I love the whole "did I look like you thought I would?" thing. Most people I know that I've met online have only ever said they imagined me to be "bigger," which maybe makes sense because my posts are big. I don't usually imagine what the other person looks like as I'm typing to them (unless I imagine them as their icon--like with yours). Part of what's interesting about meeting a person, I find, is that they're always at the same time completely different (because now they have a face and a body) and completely the same.

And isn't that really the biggest difference and the most exciting thing about online communication...all of us seem to be vested more in our brains than our looks...and to find people who feel the same way is great!

Definitely--and it is a huge relief! Because it's not that there's no interest in the basics of putting yourself together. We can all dress ourselves etc. It's just so refreshing to be connecting on something other than that, it's sometimes like clearing away all the white noise and just concentrating on the important stuff.

This is also, imo, amazingly important when it comes to disabilities. They don't exist on-line. You can be talking to someone for years about a show and then the subject of, say, deafness will come up and they'll say, "Well, I know about this because I've been profoundly deaf since birth..." Intellectually we should all certainly know that being deaf has no bearing on who a person is in that way, but still if we met them in person maybe the first thing we'd both notice about each other is this difference. It must just be freeing to be able to choose whether people identify you by that characteristic or not, or at least have them do it on your own terms.

Hello, you Sexy Intellectual

[franzeska]

I find slash particularly fascinating because there's this interesting tension between mutual voyeurism directed at the same canon and desire evoked specifically by another writer (or artist, I suppose, but I see more fics than pictures). So is it desire for the nominal object or to be that object or for the other writer or to be the other writer or...? My puny mind explodes.

BTW, I've friended you because you seem interesting and I keep seeing your comments on other people's ljs lately.

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

I find it incredibly refreshing with the Internet, that trivial things usually don't seem to matter as much as they do in real life. For instance, no one (usually) gives a damn about where you live, how you look, how you dress, not even what you work with, or what you do (something that is usually the first question people ask, when they first meet you, at least in my experience). All that matters, is what you say, and how well you say it. Or at least it should be. And it often is. And personally I find to to be a great relief, it's actually the reason I started posting in the first place, because I didn't want people to judge me by anything other, than what I was saying and how I said it.

But when it comes to these "fandom politics" (as everyone seem to call it), it seems like that's not the case anymore. Suddenly, it becomes more important how famous you are, who you are friends with, what connections you have, what your role in the fandom is, etc. And, in these cases, what originally drew me into the on-line communities, seems, sadly, to be completely lost.

And this is also why it annoys me so much, when fans stereotype over other fans and judge them only by which character they like and what ship, or theories, they support and/or believe in. Because it seems to me like people do it as an excuse to not listen to good argument or well thought out analysis. In these circumstances people do judge others over trivial matters, just like in real life people may judge you by where you're from, or how you dress.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

I wonder how many of us are exactly the same, though, IRL and online.

Although I've just started meeting fandom people IRL, I was very seriously involved with several Usenet newsgroups through which I met lots of people first online and then face to face. My overriding people is that people ARE the same as they present themselves. I have yet to meet someone who I like online that I don't like when I meet in person, and similarly if I have a somewhat negative impression of someone from internet contact, I've never completely changed my mind when we've met in person.

And yes, it's all about the brain!

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

C- you were a little different than I expected, but I think that has more to do with how I do and don't read than anything.

Sister M- Mazel tov on another swell essay. Very humane. I really disagree with the "get a life" approach. I know a number of people who get a lot of support from on line. And why not? They may need "a more loving parent," but unfortunately those aren't available, not even for ready money, to those who don't already have them.

[anehan]

Being around people for too long is draining for me in ways the Internet is not.

I feel exactly the same way. I need solitude more than the average person (I think). I have often felt that I'm somehow weird because I prefer the company of a few close friends to that of large parties, or because I don't want to go to a bar in Friday night. It's been difficult to accept the fact that I just don't enjoy large crowds of unknown people, and that it doesn't mean that I have poor social skills. I mean, I can interact with people just fine, I can make friends reasonably easily even though I'm an introvert. It's just that being able to do something doesn't mean I have to like it. And I do enjoy the company of my friends.

I can't understand why some people would dismiss fandom and online connections as something inferior to 'real life'. I think online friendships can be as real as real life friendships. They may be different but that doesn't make them inferior, and I think they should be treated with the same respect as their real life versions.

People may think that they can be anonymous here, but I believe that if they want to form connections and even friendships, they can't be that anonymous. Of course they don't have to tell their real names, but they still have pseudonymes, and their whole online identity is built around those names. The respect and recognition they have is based on their name and what they write in that name, and if they taint that name, then it's almost as unpleasant than tainting their real names. They can't just delete all they said and think that that does it. They can't just start over, because if they start with some new identity, then all the work they've done is wasted. They are nobodies again, and they have to start building the relationships from scratch.

It's so easy to forget that there are real people who read what we write. I think the fandom would be much more pleasant place if people remembered that, and if people could admit being wrong. It's so easy to misunderstand something that's written because we don't have facial expressions and voice tones in our aid. We have to convey what we mean through written text, and that requires skill. I think much of the fandom kerfuffle could be avoided if we weren't so damn pround and if we could see that what we said didn't necessarily convey our meaning. A simple apology is often enough.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--somebody put up an article once called something like, "The care and feeding of your introvert," that just explained these things very well. Introverts are a minority in the population, but I suspect we're represented in greater numbers on the Internet because we can be social without being forced into situations we don't like. I've just never really understood the appeal of bars and clubs---they're so loud and tiring. Though I understand that other people thrive on them, and get energized by all the people. When I think of my ideal social situation I think of this one early chapter of LOTR where the hobbits take hot baths, then have a nice dinner at home and sit in front of the fire talking.

Of course they don't have to tell their real names, but they still have pseudonymes, and their whole online identity is built around those names.

That's a whole interesting point in itself, because I hear how people feel like they can do things because they're anonymous and to a certain extent that's true. There are things you might type to someone you wouldn't say to their face, I guess. But for me my fandom identity is just as real as my RL identity. Somebody saying something about SM is "me" just as much as my own name. (In fact, I'm now at the point that any references to magpies jump out at me as if I'm reading my own name.) I always think it's interesting, too, how difficult it can be to start a new online identity--I mean, I'll bet people figure it out a lot of the time because you sound the same. Some people might change their name symbolically while not hiding who they used to be, but that's not the same thing.

It's so easy to misunderstand something that's written because we don't have facial expressions and voice tones in our aid.

Oh god, yes. I remember one horrible situation that happened between me and someone else online that I felt was completely my fault, but whenever I tried to make it right I made it worse! Luckily the person did live relatively close by and once we were in person I could figure out what really happened. It was as silly as this: I had said something jokingly but she thought I was serious because it just came across that way. In fact, what I had said was to joke about caring about BNFs--and she thought I'd just revealed myself to be exactly the kind of person that confuses me! We really laughed about it once this was understood and everything fell into place--but I could totally see it from her pov and it must have been horrible! Everything I was saying to her must have sounded so fake and scary!

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

It's so easy to forget that there are real people who read what we write. I think the fandom would be much more pleasant place if people remembered that, and if people could admit being wrong. It's so easy to misunderstand something that's written because we don't have facial expressions and voice tones in our aid. We have to convey what we mean through written text, and that requires skill. I think much of the fandom kerfuffle could be avoided if we weren't so damn pround and if we could see that what we said didn't necessarily convey our meaning. A simple apology is often enough.

This is all so very true. I think the very reason why posts like those in that "hate thread" gets written, is because when you read messages on the Internet, by strangers you've never met in your life, it's easy to forget they are actually real people, with real feelings, because we don't have that physical connection to them, and so people post hurtful things, like they are posting about a fictional character. It's almost as it is with celebrities, we know an awful lot about them, because of what we read in magazines, and we've seen them on TV so many times, but we've never met them, so they seem more like fictional character, who we know everything about, but who don't really exist. And with celebrities too, I get the feeling that people often forget that their impressions of them as fictional characters, rather than real people, are decieving, and so many people misguidedly think that they are entitled to the celebrities, and that they can treat them however they want, without them getting hurt. Like they can write a letter to a well-published magazine about how so-and-so celebrity suck, and if they meet them on the street, they can call them any names in the book, if they don't give them an autograph. Treat them as "public property", in other words. And this seem to be happening on-line as well.

[samaranth.livejournal.com]

I’m still trying to work out an answer for ‘what is fandom?’!!

But from my own (admittedly sheltered) experience of it, it seems to be a rather amorphous creature that lurks around message boards and news groups, and has also found a home on LJ. But there are real life manifestations too, aren’t there? I mean, conventions and things, as well as the real-life meetings of people who have come to know each other online?

The thing that has characterised the kind of relationships that have had their spark in fandom, or online in general, is that they have to be dynamic, rather than static things, or they’ll turn in on themselves. And for most, this would be when communication moves from the specific to include the more general, and from online forms to include the more day to day – the phone, IM, actual meetings, so there’s a balance.

There’s all sorts of real life on the Internet. Wherever there are people you’ll get cliques and politics. The BNF phenomenon you describe doesn’t sounds so different to some of the more unsubtle ‘networking’ efforts evident amongst ambitious persons. For example, the GA who I work for counts as her ‘friends’ a number of high profile people in the media world. They even go to dinner parties at her house (although I shudder to think if they’d have themes… best not go there…) But from my vantage point I can’t say that these ‘friends’ are ‘friends’ as I’d define ‘friendship’. They are simply Very Useful People to Know, who Give One Status amongst Other People. Name-dropping is a sure symptom of a rather nasty disease. (I’ve seen people at conferences and other work-related meetings literally target the Big Name. It’s a very scary sight watching them circle and then strike. And it gives one enormous cachet, if the Big Name then drops their name somewhere else.)

On LJ, the friends thing is very interesting. I think of it literally – these are people whose writing style I enjoy, and who don’t have an obvious online ‘persona’ – they sound like real people. Of the people I have actually met, the gap between the ‘real’ and the online person (as far as I have been able to get to know them) has been minimal. (OK, there have been one or two exceptions, but actually all for the positive.)

(As a personal aside, this is actually the part I find most surprising. I have never great at meeting or talking to people, and I’m suddenly finding myself deliberately doing exactly that which would, in any other context, have me in the bathroom throwing up from the nervousness of it all.)

I’m not sure I agree that this style of interaction is completely comparable to the former art of letter-writing, or even (paper) diary keeping. A little comparable, maybe. Some of my favourite reading is the Collected Letters of *insert name here* - and I love reading other people’s diaries even more. But these are essentially personal communications, usually originally intended for reading by one or two other people, often lapsing into a kind of private shorthand. Something like LJ is deceptively private. However, there is a potential audience of many, many others, and unless you are scrupulous about your privacy settings, you may not even realise who or how many. And it does depend on the purpose you’ve assigned to your LJ too, of course.

Am I the same person in writing as I am in real life? (NB this is a rhetorical question.) I don’t know. I try to be. In the last entry of Anne Frank’s diary that you cite, she discusses the discrepancies between the inner and the outer Anne, and how she is afraid to let other people see the ‘real’ (inner) Anne. I can sympathise with that fear. I think it’s enormously tempting to only show the aspects of yourself that you think are the best and hope that no-one can see the secret, hang-up ridden you. But I also think that, inevitably, after a while you do reveal yourself – the real ‘inner’ self – in spite of your self.

(I’d be interesting in hearing more about the Druid card readings, but perhaps some other time. :-) )

[anehan]

The thing that has characterised the kind of relationships that have had their spark in fandom, or online in general, is that they have to be dynamic, rather than static things, or they’ll turn in on themselves.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean. Could you elaborate? Please, bear with me. English is not my first language, so sometimes I need clarification.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It’s a very scary sight watching them circle and then strike. And it gives one enormous cachet, if the Big Name then drops their name somewhere else

Yes, and it's strange watching how different people react to this as well. Some people sort of like being courted, with others it just makes them feel nervous. Both of those things can be turned against them as well--in fandom maybe the first BNF will eventually be considered to have a huge ego and be fake, the second will be stuck up and elitist. The weird thing to is that in fandom (leaving aside what that is for a moment!) there's also the celebrities, and for a lot of people those are the ones to target. I mean, in any fandom there's the people who are primarily interested in the actors or the author, the real people involved. Sometimes they can do this is a non-crazy way, and other times the actor just gets drawn into their drama.

And for most, this would be when communication moves from the specific to include the more general, and from online forms to include the more day to day – the phone, IM, actual meetings, so there’s a balance.

I always find that interesting too, when people decide to take that step. IM is something that's always kind of exotic to me, because it seems like a lot of people are just always on it but I never even think about it unless I have a scheduled chat.

I have never great at meeting or talking to people, and I’m suddenly finding myself deliberately doing exactly that which would, in any other context, have me in the bathroom throwing up from the nervousness of it all

Oh yes--I remember meeting my first online friend in person and it wasn't so much nervousness as thinking, "What if this is an incredibly tedious night and we have nothing to say to each other?" And it turned out not only was it fun to talk about fandom stuff in person, but we had a whole community in common to talk about too, and real life stuff as well. Though I suppose it changes if there's more at stake--like if somebody reeeealy wants to be best friends or more.

And it does depend on the purpose you’ve assigned to your LJ too, of course.

That's a really good point about letter-writing being personal and the purpose of one's lj. That was probably the most daunting thing in starting one, I found. It's this blank space...what do you put in it? Everyone's lj is different but at the same time consistent, usually. At least, it is with regular lj-ers. Maybe some people just starting out flail around a bit before coming up with who they are online. Someone once posted something about how one's online activities tend to mirror what one does IRL, so journalers have ljs. They pick something that's somewhat natural for them. But that decision of what kinds of things go into your lj and who you're speaking to is a significant thing to figure out.

That's partly what must be so odd about being a huge BNF. I mean, I tend to post things that I think people might have something to say on, or they wouldn't mind thinking about it. There might be people I know whose opinion on the subject I'd like to hear, but in general it's understood to be open to everybody. But another lj, for instance, might be more personal when not posting fanfic. Like, I don't know Cassie Claire's lj that well but it seems like she posts just a lot of short anecdotes about fun things she's done, or whatever strikes her fancy. This is totally normal, and yet there are people ready to jump on it to analyze the BNF mind or try to gain some personal connection through it...it just must be odd. In general, though, it seems like an lj always attracts regular commentators that make sense for that lj.

I’d be interesting in hearing more about the Druid card readings, but perhaps some other time. :-) )

Sure!

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

The internet doesn't appeal to me because I can't talk to people in real life or need to be anonymous, it's because, I think, I can interact when I want to and withdraw when I need to recharge. Being around people for too long is draining for me in ways the Internet is not.

Ditto and yet not. I don't need the internet to find people to talk to or out of a need to be anonymous, but I haven't had as healthy a relationship with the internet as you have. I found the internet easy to misuse - when I'm down, I gravitate to things that insulate me, that allow me to be as inactive and unthinking as possible, and the internet completely fits the bill. It's difficult to avoid, too, because I'm online during the day for my job. I guess that because of the way I've used the internet, it's far, far more draining than real life interaction even though I dislike a lot of social interaction in general.

I suppose this is why I don't understand the appeal of fandom, but I do understand turning to the internet out of loneliness or whatever.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ah--well, of course I'm probably making myself out to be totally healthy all the time here when I'm not.:-)

I think I can actually totally understand using the net to escape, and sometimes it can be totally draining. I guess because you can't ever really escape. You recreate things in all these areas of your life.

At times, really, I find online relationships and socializing far far more intense than real life ones, maybe because face-to-face contact makes things easier or something. I don't think I've ever had the kinds of kerfuffles happen in real life as I've seen online--at least not since jr. high. When you think about it, it's a very tough social situation--even the fact that there's a word like "newbies" points to a harsh pecking order. And you know, maybe the high number of females contributes to it as well. I went to a women's college and it always seemed like co-ed schools were SO much more mellow. They might not have been good in other ways, but the shrill intensity of it all was absent.

I suppose this is why I don't understand the appeal of fandom, but I do understand turning to the internet out of loneliness or whatever.

I think I get what you're saying...and really, the reason anyone goes online is going to color everything that happens there. I remember the last time I was sucked into lj in a frightening way was probably the weekend of the Outing on NA. Except for when a friend literally showed up unexpectedly and dragged me out to brunch (probably very very healthy--sitting out in the sunshine that day stands out in my mind all the more clearly because of it, I think) I was glued to my computer. I even didn't eat (just because I'm the kind of person who forgets to eat a lot, not because I was upset). But for me that weekend was intense like watching a good movie or reading a good book would be intense. I was just caught up in the discussions and what was happening in the game--it probably wasn't much different than I would have been if I'd gotten into a good book and lost a weekend that way. But still it was strange how intense it was and how it took several days to get back on a regular eating schedule. I can easily see the internet being far more stressful if it's a social thing first instead of primarily about entertainment. And it must hurt if one person is looking for one thing and another person another thing.

[oselle.livejournal.com]

I've often thought about the nature of these online friendships, because even though I've been involved with this for two years now, and have definitely formed some solid relationships, there's still something in my head that segregates my online friends from my real life friends. It's really quite ridiculous, since my online friends, especially my LJ readers, actually know more about me, far more, than my RL friends or my family.

I've always felt that there's a different protocol to these online friendships. You wouldn't think twice about giving your phone number to an RL friend, even if you didn't know them very well, but I've noticed that there's a far greater reserve amongst online acquaintances to share that kind of personal information. There are people in the fandom that I "talked" to every day for months before I even knew what their real first name was...and there are some people whose real first name I still don't know. I think there's this slight suspicion that, even though we know we're normal, everyone else who spends so much time on the Net is a stalker/serial killer/child molester/Satan worshipper, etc., and we have to tread very carefully with them.

At the same time, that protocol extends to not "intruding" upon people's real lives. I've always felt a little bit weird about getting in touch with some of my fandom friends on the weekends, because I know that's their "real life" time. But I wouldn't necessarily feel the same way about calling up an RL friend on a Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon. Just as an aside, I've always noticed that the online ranks tend to get very thin after 5:00 p.m. on Friday---and start filing back in around 10:00 a.m. on Monday. I used to belong to a message board group where the members always talked about how much their online friendships meant to them, how valuable they were, and then everyone disappeared all weekend. I always wondered about that. If these relationships are really so valuable to us, then why do we tend to maintain them during the boring stretches of our work week, those hours when we're chained to our desks and our computers, and neglect them on our personal time? And boy, doesn't that also say an awful lot about what people are REALLY doing at work!

I've long thought of the nature of fandom "popularity" as a bit of sweet revenge on behalf of introverts everywhere. So many of us are accustomed to not making much of an impression on others, especially not at first, but suddenly we have this forum where we can shine---and so many of the people who are used to having all of the attention simply can't translate that popularity into this medium. I know that I've seen people drift away from message boards and Live Journal with a slight air of wounded confusion because they suddenly aren't the center of attention anymore, maybe for the first time in their lives! I can easily believe that these people are at least partially responsible for labeling the online population as a bunch of geeks and losers---it's natural to put down any group from which you feel excluded.

I also agree with you about the "it's only fandom" thing, but it's kind of a gray area. "It's only fandom" is a valid argument when people are getting bent out of shape about an issue that is basically unimportant to real life, for example, it ultimately doesn't matter whether Frodo was homosexual or not. But it's NOT a valid argument to excuse the sort of rude or insulting behavior that we'd never tolerate in real life. The problem is that the two things tend to blur into each other. If someone calls me an asshole because I don't think that Frodo was gay, it doesn't make it any less of an insult because it happened in a fandom context. I can say, "oh, this is so stupid to get upset over whether or not this fictional character was gay, after all, it's only fandom." But that doesn't mean that someone still didn't call me an asshole, and that I shouldn't get pissed off about that.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

OMG, I agree with everything you've said here. I remember reading an article about a nudist resort once (which was hysterical) and it talked about how there was a different set of social rules because of the nudity. Like, you could be naked in front of someone, which usually would require intimacy, but you couldn't ever touch a person or sit too close to them, because the nudity made that loaded in ways it wasn't when you were clothed. Also, people didn't really seem to care about being too in shape physically, but their pubic hair was trimmed with incredible precision.

Online relationships have different rules. You sometimes share far more personal things, but in response it's understood, maybe, that you don't press for mundane personal details like a phone number, because that too intimate now. You also touched on another thing that always strikes me as odd, which is the people who are always talking about how much their online friends mean to them. I have online friends that do mean a lot to me, but I don't have to say it anymore than I have to say it to my RL friends. And often it's the person who says that all the time that disappears over a weekend or loses interest quickly. Plus the idea of everybody doing this at work is just very funny--take that corporate America/Europe/Australia!

I know that I've seen people drift away from message boards and Live Journal with a slight air of wounded confusion because they suddenly aren't the center of attention anymore, maybe for the first time in their lives! I can easily believe that these people are at least partially responsible for labeling the online population as a bunch of geeks and losers---it's natural to put down any group from which you feel excluded.

This is so true, and I admit this just tickles me. Really, the idea that there's any social setting where I make a bigger impression than Sally Star is fascinating. It makes you wonder on what basis they think they're being excluded on? Sometimes people will put up these posts, for instance, about how BNF #25 is stuck up because they won't be friends with her and there seems to me no earthly reason this person would even know who she was. You wonder, are you just not seeing what other people are connecting over?

But that doesn't mean that someone still didn't call me an asshole, and that I shouldn't get pissed off about that.

Yes--and it is so frustrating when people can't make that distinction. Within fandoms there's always going to be different groups that care about different things and so fight. People who like hobbits are probably going to have some collective opinion about the people who like elves. People who like het are going to have some collective idea about slashers. It's important not to confuse these ideas for the reality of the real people involved, and also to not pretend these differences don't exist. I think that's when people get into this idea that everybody in a fandom is going to be friends, which just isn't going to happen. And to act like being insulted over liking Frodo more than Sam is somehow less insulting than being insulted over how you parallel park is just ridiculous.

[franzeska]

I've long thought of the nature of fandom "popularity" as a bit of sweet revenge on behalf of introverts everywhere.

Well... maybe sometimes. A lot of the time though, the people who complain of being excluded are introverts too. The people who complain about online social dynamics remind me a lot of the people who complained about the sci-fi club at my college. Most of them were the same sorts of geeks as the people who found the club fulfilling except that they had more emotional problems that they needed to work out. It's a tempting fantasy to say that "we" get revenge on "them" online, but I'm not sure it's true.

[samaranth.livejournal.com]

If these relationships are really so valuable to us, then why do we tend to maintain them during the boring stretches of our work week, those hours when we're chained to our desks and our computers, and neglect them on our personal time? And boy, doesn't that also say an awful lot about what people are REALLY doing at work!

Plus the idea of everybody doing this at work is just very funny--take that corporate America/Europe/Australia!

*looks very guilty*

The protocols of communicating online are all over the place. On the one hand you have the initial, and rather seductive, sense of anonymity, which allows you to share innermost secrets in a way (and using forms of language) you would not in real life. Until the anonymity begins to wear off, and you’ve let enough slip for people to start putting together their composite picture of you, and then the reticence may kick back in. Sustained online anonymity is actually a myth. Anyone who thinks that such anonymity as the ‘Net provides means that anarchy!rulz and it’s a licence to behave without observing ordinary courtesies is deluded.

The key, I’ve found, is the point where real names, and things like phone numbers are exchanged. That’s breaking down the barrier between the two worlds you inhabit. It becomes seriously real, then.

This is not to say that the real name will stick. In most cases where I have met ‘net people in person I use their online name, because that is them, to me. The real name is slightly foreign. I know there are some who think it’s more correct to use real names once you’ve met in real life – I’d like to comply, but I can’t help myself.