The Girls of Slytherin and Hogwarts

[sistermagpie]

Having just read alice_and_lain's recent post about Millicent Bulstrode, I realize I never have spoken about the Slytherin girls and you know, I really love them. Yes, I know it probably seems like I just like them because if it's Slytherin I probably like it, but I really do like them. The HP books are just really interesting on the subject of females, I think a lot of which is because despite whatever Girl Power! ideas Hermione and Ginny represent, the books still seem basically very mainstream in their ideas about women--traditional, with a modern sensibility.



They're very slippery. Okay, so Pansy. The main way she caught my fancy was she seemed (presumably just as Draco did) to be so clearly vulnerable with all her, "Hermione Granger? Pretty? No way! You don't think she's prettier than I am, do you? Do you think I'm ugly? I'm ugly aren't I. I'm pretty than her, though. Bitch." I can so believe she and Draco being little rotten friends and plotting the untimely deaths of their enemies.

Hermione and OotP!Ginny are both characterized by being essentially non-girlish in terms of interests. Hermione has no patience for silly girls who worry about fashion and make-up. She's friends with two guys. Ginny, too, is a tomboy--now. She used to be more outwardly girlie but that had to go before she became a big character--and she still doesn't really have any girl friends, if she ever did (Hermione's like a sister-in-law). When I was in school I was friends with guys like Hermione is, was the advice person for them, etc. Only when I went to the ball, I didn't suddenly turn heads. Being the girl who's the guy's friend (as opposed to somebody they're secretly in love with), can pretty much suck. Like when you decide to reveal yourself as a girl, it's not a given people will really care.

Hermione, as we know, wows them at the Yule Ball while, iirc, Pansy Parkinson shows up in...pink frills. "Pink frills" is shorthand for "hideous." Pansy has never been described as pretty but she's often made remarks about other peoples' looks. She hangs around with a gang of other girls. She flirts in a hyper-girlie way in PoA. So I think it's safe to assume she's supposed to be the girl who cares about fashion and probably make-up. A ball is one of the few places Pansy might possibly outshine Hermione...and yet she looks meh.

Hermione, meanwhile, displays an incredibly sophisticated handle on makeovers. Not that it's a makeover exactly--she's still all natural and no-nonsense. She just also looks great-and not just great for her, but great, period. Unlike many other 14-year-old girls, especially those who don't have much experience picking out clothes, she's found an understated dress that flatters her. Also, she's completely tamed her worst physical feature (beside her teeth which are now fixed, also sort of by herself), her bushy hair. This is a feat that probably takes most girls with bad hair until at least their 20's.

So what's interesting here is that the subtly mixed message. It's bad to be a girl too interested in fashion and make-up because that's superficial, but Hermione still gets her Cinderella moment. Pansy, who probably took just as long to dress, is the ugly stepsister. Never pretty to begin with, when she tries to look nice she's ridiculous, overdone. As much as I hate fics that turn Pansy into a hate object for Draco, I can see where the basis in fanfic comes from. Doesn't canon make a point of letting us know that Malfoy, too, recognizes the wonder of Hermione as he stands beside his own date?

Then there's Millicent. I love Millicent because she commits the worst sin a girl can commit in her very first scene: she's big. Bigger than all the girls, bigger than the boys. She's strong, built like a Mack truck. Oh, the pain for probably every girl like Millicent. nocturne_alley has of course done much for my Millicent love, but what I love about MB is partly that she is so canon. Her face belongs to Janeane Garofalo, who is in no way ugly but is also actually believable as the not-pretty girl in a movie (as opposed to the supermodel wearing glasses while parting her hair crookedly). Plus MB is described just as she is in canon: she's big. She's strong.

We know next to nothing about Millicent in canon, but the way she appears in my mind based on what we've seen is that she's brutally realistic about her looks and how it makes people feel about her. I think she's earned respect in her house (and that she was therefore picked by TPTB in Slytherin for the Squad) and that any girl who tried befriending her to show how little outward appearance meant would be sorry for it very quickly. She's nobody's charity case. Rather than be ashamed of her stature she uses it as part of who she is, whether in a duel in CoS or to subdue enemies in OotP--everything about her says she should be a loser, yet she's in the house for the *ambitious.* She hates weakness in others (as evidenced by her being disgusted by Hermione's tears) and allows none in herself. I like to think as she gets older she'll be known for her presence and so never be thought of as primarily failing to be conventionally pretty. She's the Warrior Queen of Slytherin and she rocks. (Perhaps her middle name is Bodicae.)

What's even more interesting is that these two girls are essentially the feminine face of Slytherin--and what does that mean? Millicent, in particular, seems like somebody we’re supposed to laugh at without anyone wanting to come out and say that larger girls are grotesque. As Dustin Hoffman says in Tootsie: I see what y'all really want. You want some gross caricature of a woman to prove some idiotic point like power makes women masculine or masculine women are ugly. Well shame on you and any woman that let's you do that.” Hee. At the same time, though, it's not that Millicent should be *good* like a PSA. I'm glad she's allowed to be a villain and not the sad, big girl who shows us how nice some other, prettier girl is. I like that Millicent is in the house with all the anger because when I think of her stereotype it seems like she'd either got to be sad or angry and angry is much better.

We've never seen the two Slyth girls interact in canon, exactly, but I can believe they've got a good working relationship since a) they don't encroach on each other's territory and b) neither of them is really successful. I guess sometimes the point of Slytherin is supposed to be that they're so mean and bitter because they want to be beautiful and adored but really they're the ugly kids. Unfortunately my natural reaction is to like them for it. And yes, I realize that none of the other girls are described as really pretty either. Ginny seems to be, but Hermione’s got bushy hair and she cries about her teeth, yes. Neither of them is described as primarily a knock-out, I know. Still.

What is it about Slytherin? I guess that's the question. In OotP Hufflepuff's house seemed to change from the house of loyal hardworkers to the "everyone's valuable" house. Slytherin went from "ambitious" to "House of Old Families." But what really is going on in that house? What is it that binds them all together? What do its females say about it, as Hermione and Ginny say about Gryffindor? (Oddly Ravenclaw is represented by Luna--whose personality makes sense but it still seems odd Ravenclaw is the house that's been systematically ganging up on one girl for 4 years--and the painfully ordinary Cho and Marietta.)

Comments

[just-clodia.livejournal.com]

Janeane Garofalo is actually a very tiny and petite person.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yes yes-I know. It's only her face that M.B. has, but she's described as being a much bigger girl.:-)

[sine-que-non767.livejournal.com]

Excellent thoughts. Never thought too much about the Slytherin girls, shame on me.

I find it difficult to express how much I hate the instant-makeover idea imported in for Hermione. Yeah, she could try to look good, fair enough, but to be stunning overnight? When I was that age my greatest worry was major grease issues. Do any of these teenagers have spots? And why not?

Pansy Parkinson shows up in...pink frills

I liked that this happened, not because it was Pansy, but because this is a realistic mistake for anyone to make, and most especially for a young girl who's concerned about impressing people (and impressing Draco Malfoy, too).

Millicent, in particular, seems like somebody we’re supposed to laugh at without anyone wanting to come out and say that larger girls are grotesque.

Ultimately, I think this might be what is happening with Slytherin House in general. Sly digs on JKR's part, undermining any sense that Slytherin females are valued or valuable in the scheme of things. (The boys are worthy enemies, but the girls just fail at being feminine enough, so they're discounted. Compare Lavender, Parvarti and Padma, Cho - all pretty, feminine girls. Pansy's the only one who might be pretty, and she ruins it at key moments, eg. at the Ball.) But I may be being too pessimistic.

Thanks for this post. I think I've fallen into the trap (as is my usual default with JKR) of accepting MB at face value. You've given me some great keys to challenge the text!

I like to think as she gets older she'll be known for her presence and so never be thought of as primarily failing to be conventionally pretty. She's the Warrior Queen of Slytherin and she rocks. (Perhaps her middle name is Bodicae.)

Brilliant. Reminds me of Stockard Channing, who I've always admired. People like Millicent get where they're going. I have an image of her as a kick-ass lawyer later on, facing down the Wizengamot. *g*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, she could try to look good, fair enough, but to be stunning overnight? When I was that age my greatest worry was major grease issues. Do any of these teenagers have spots? And why not?

Yes! I mean, it's the dream to be able to be gorgeous when you put your mind to it and I'm sure Hermione could look just fine...but I don't know that many 14-year-old girls who can take command of a room like that just because they put their mind to it. I certainly couldn't!

I liked that this happened, not because it was Pansy, but because this is a realistic mistake for anyone to make, and most especially for a young girl who's concerned about impressing people (and impressing Draco Malfoy, too).

True-on it's own I've got no problem with it. In fact, it's too bad we didn't get more stories about fashion victims at the ball. I'd expect more in the other direction too, someone trying to look sophisticated and not being able to pull it off.

Compare Lavender, Parvarti and Padma, Cho - all pretty, feminine girls. Pansy's the only one who might be pretty, and she ruins it at key moments, eg. at the Ball.) But I may be being too pessimistic.


Yes. And on some level I understand that of course someone who's being nasty is not going to look as good--like Narcissa is described as someone who would be good-looking if not for the sneer on her face. But the Slytherin girls just always seem like harpies of different sorts. There's nothing feminine about them at all.

Brilliant. Reminds me of Stockard Channing, who I've always admired. People like Millicent get where they're going. I have an image of her as a kick-ass lawyer later on, facing down the Wizengamot. *g*

Wouldn't that be great? You go, Millicent! I wonder if because I like her I also think more highly of the other Slytherins for appreciating her--not that I have much actual canon evidence for this!

been awhile since I've answered one of your meta posts

[closet-geek.livejournal.com]

I can’t say I thought very much about Millicent when I first read canon (I did later on when I began examining them in more detail, although that was still more about the Slytherins being a group), but Pansy has always been one of my favorite characters. I can probably credit that to relating to her (I’m definitely girl’s girl with more girlfriends than guys) and admiring her style, especially in Ootp. (She was the only one smart enough to check back in the Room of Requirement for any evidence—although I’m sure Draco would’ve came up with something similar if he hadn’t been preoccupied with being the *one* who caught Harry. Taking that into account, don’t you really wish we found out what she did to the person who gave her antlers? What I wouldn’t give…) Outwardly Pansy’s not the girl you’re supposed to like, but even if I didn’t like her I would definitely have a grudging sort of respect for her. You don’t have think pug dogs are pretty to be able to admire their teeth.

If you compare Pansy and Millicent, you get a sense of how much more ‘mature’ Millicent is. Pansy’s a girl who’s gotten caught in all those terrible teenage trappings—insecurity about her looks, bad fashion choices, uncontrollable crushes, tries to make herself better by cutting down those who challenge her, etc—whereas Millicent has obviously had to grow past that, due to circumstance or personality. She’s not conventionally beautiful and she never will be, but I can’t see her giving a hoot about that. I like what you said about her being nobody’s charity case. When Pansy does grow up and out of that terrible teenage phase, I can see her being a smart, successful femme fatale. Maybe she’ll never be gorgeous like Fleur or Cho is, but she’ll have realized by then that what she does have is nothing to sneeze at. She’s smart—enough to become a prefect, despite what Hermione says (while Pansy’s hot spot is her looks, it’s evident what dear Ms. Granger’s is)—she’s ruthless and cruel, but not without heart. (“Draco, Draco darling, don’t you dare die on me! And I am *not* crying, don’t you dare look at me…”) And might I say, she has wonderful taste in guys…

JKR has gotten a lot of crap about being sexist towards women in the series, which I’ve always thought was totally baseless. I think she gives a fair representation of both sexes for the most part; while Parvati is predominantly viewed as a (pretty) giggly moron, she has her moments in canon when it’s clear she’s got balls, and while Fleur seems like a diva/drama queen—half-veela, on top of that—she’s also a Triwizard champion. What I don’t like and I think the two preceding examples show this perfectly, is that JKR gives the message that you ‘have’ to be pretty on top of being smart and wonderful. Hermione could’ve went through the entire series without her ball moment and she still would’ve been viewed as the most important female character, and one of the most important characters, period. But she had to have the ball moment, which means, pow! She’s got brains *and* beauty, watch out! I just don’t think that was exactly necessary, really, and I began to feel for Pansy at that moment. What I don’t agree with when I see it in fanfiction is when authors who love Pansy assume that she didn’t pick her clothes that night. Her mom? No. She did, you better believe it, because she thought it was pretty and she would be pretty. It makes you cringe at how much she missed the mark—she was so far away from the mark she couldn’t even see it anymore. Crossed the line, Pansy did—“so far away from the line—the line is a dot to you!” (Oh, Friends.) It’s definitely one of those things that makes her painfully human and utterly relatable—God how I love her. The only help I think Pansy needs is a few years. She’s alright.

(I’ve never followed any RPGs but I have read snippets of potterstinks’ journal—wonderful, btw—so I know they’re friends. Can’t say I know much more than that, though. If I were to start following an RPG, would nocturne_alley be a good one?)

Re: been awhile since I've answered one of your meta posts

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

N_A is the only one I follow--as of yet it's the only one I've been able to. It's very addictive. Pansy is great in it, though the game started post-GoF and she's developed differently (she went through a Goth stage in fifth year).

ITA with what you're saying, though. I can't remember how I dealt with Pansies in school (I think they left me alone) but I love that type in general. She's just so out there and has no chance against Hermione, particularly, as you say, once Hermione is revealed to have both beauty and brains, that I have to start leaning towards her.

It's sad, really, the way she gets treated in fanon. It's like Draco, in a way. If somebody likes her they fix her into someone else--we're told she's clutching Draco's arm as they go into the ball, her pale pink frills floating around her. Suddenly it becomes that she's too cool for her own outfit and has to wear it--uh, I think Canon!Pansy would, in that situation, have found a way to dress the way she wanted no matter who picked out her clothes. So she's not liked for herself. Then there's the people who make her some ugly animal to disgust Draco by throwing herself at him--I so hate that.

And you're right--it's nothing so simple as JKR IS SEXIST! Her girl characters often show a lot of the dynamics I recognize from real girls I know.

And thank you so much for pointing that wonderful parallel between Hermione and Pansy, that while Pansy's always making a point of saying how Hermione isn't pretty, Hermione makes a point of saying what a moron Pansy is all the time. I remember wondering in OotP just what Pansy could have said that made Hermione so disgusted--did Hermione start laying out just how the Prefects were going to work and Pansy mouthed off?

Re: been awhile since I've answered one of your meta posts

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

*cringes* I did the mom thing. I did not realise it was a cliche. Bad, bad, bad Maya. Should read more Pansy!fic, but whenever I see her she's shrill and Draco hates her, and I just cry and cry.
But, in my defense, I mean, Pansy is fourteen, and fourteen year old girls *do* go clothes-shopping with their mothers. Just like Mrs Weasley picked out Harry and Ron's clothes (without them even being there because they are manly manly boymen).
So, do I think Pansy wore the dress because she wanted to look pretty and feminine, yes, sure. But also sure, it must at least have been mother-approved, and quite possibly mother-recommended, and in any case, the pureblood seem so traditionalist and ancient-heritagey I'd think the girls are encouraged to be feminine-looking. It needn't be Pansy's style - after all, Hermione was trying out something new that night too.
Also it is just cuter that she got all dressed up *wrong* and girly for Draco than 'Pansy is just into pink. she plays Barbies in the dungeons and wears glitter make-up, the ho.'
Now I'm thinking about these entirely in my head pureblood traditional values for women and how they impact on Millicent. Bloody meta thinkers, you people, honestly!

Re: been awhile since I've answered one of your meta posts

[malafede.livejournal.com]

What I don’t like and I think the two preceding examples show this perfectly, is that JKR gives the message that you ‘have’ to be pretty on top of being smart and wonderful.

You must be in my mind because I ended up saying the exact same thing in my comment below in this thread. I am incredibly depressed about how much physical beauty seems to count when it comes to evaluate (and design, if you are the writer) female characters, in a way that doesn't factor at all in our perception of boys.

Look at Harry Potter: JKR manages to avoid giving any definitive indications about his looks for five books. He's neither so ugly people cowers at his sight (Snape) neither so handsome girls all round feel compelled to swoon. (Cedric! Sirius! <3) I mean, she only seems to dwell on physical descriptions when the person is somehow extreme in their looks, but with girls, she seems to feel she needs to always give us some hint on what category the girl would belong: is she ugly and scowled at, or is she pretty and empowered?

And even if these associations were reversed, ie the pretty girl is mean and the unpretty one is sad and lonely, the way it's received by readers is never separated from the detail about the looks, it's just another female clichè. In the end, beauty always matters when you are a girl.

Re: been awhile since I've answered one of your meta posts

[animus-wyrmis.livejournal.com]

(Okay, so this is a ridiculously old post, but I must add my two knuts in anyway)

I always read the ball scene with Hermione as more of the shock that she was actually with Krum. Although she is described (by Harry) as pretty, he describes other girls in the same paragraph as "very pretty indeed" and "beautiful". So, yes, Hermione looks good, but...not that good.

I also have to point out that it's all in Harry's POV, and he's not very likely to look at the people he dislikes -- the Slytherins -- with anything resembling flattery. So, yes, they get shown badly -- but this is *Harry*. He doesn't like or trust them.

[(Anonymous)]

This is only marginally topical, but I've wondered if Hermione and OOtP!Ginny are purposely "un-girly" in order not to put off male readers? Not so much that it should, or even definitively would, but I feel like there's still an attitude sometimes that we can't even ASK boys to read about girls. When I was in fifth grade, every single novel we read had a male protoganist and when I asked why, that was what the teacher told me: boys didn't like to read about girls, so we all had to read only about boys (and sometimes animals). This was true for most of my elementary school years, although most years seemed to have a token girl book, and that girl was frequently also actively un-girly.

I do think the presence of Millicent is a really interesting possibility (and I lurve Ivy Blossom's story about her!). I like what you said about her being angry––it does give her a certain amount of agency that bigger girls don't usually get in stories. I'm trying to recall, but I don't think I've ever heard her being taunted about her size either––I know Ron says she's ugly during the Polyjuice affair, but I'm sure he would say that about Pansy. I'm not sure if it's because she's too much on the periphery, or because she could kick ass and take names if one of the Trio looked at her wrong (although they certainly slag off on others in private). I'm really hoping that having the classes shaken up post-OWLs will lead to seeing some of the other characters in greater depth. It seems like Potions and DADA would be important for a lot of positions (I wouldn't have guessed Aurors needed Potions, actually; I figured there was sort of a scientific arm (like forensic scientists who work with detectives), but I can see it as a plot necessity), so really, anyone could realistically be in those classes.

I think Millicent could be an interesting foil to Hermione, because in light of the Cinderella moment, we know that Hermione can be conventionally attractive when she wants to be, and I think Hermione does have some insecurities about how people view her. She's sometimes very hungry for approval and affirmation of her intelligence and competence. I think that's part of why she blows off Lavender and Parvati––they aren't interested in her skills, and so she preventively dismisses them (Ron and Harry are still pretty dismissive of her at times, I think, but when the stakes are high enough, they do take her seriously). But from what we know about Millicent, she could be someone who really doesn't depend on external affirmation, and that would be quite a shocker to Hermione.

It's strange, though. When I first read this, I thought that it kind of bothers me that JKR does so much characterization through appearance (especially ugly=evil) and that it seemed to me she was much harder on female characters, but on reflection, I'm not sure that's true. Snape is the obvious male example of looks and character, I guess. I think it just bothers me that it seems like we're frequently reminded that Pansy is "dog-faced" right before she does or says something awful. I don't feel like we get reminded of Draco's, er, pointiness, quite so often, but then again, we see him a lot, so it isn't as if we need to be reminded what he looks like.

~M.E.
(I feel chintz-y posting anonymously, but I'm beginning my comprehensive exams for honors on Thursday and I just cannot cope with the pressure of picking a livejournal name!)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh--you can give yourself an lj name as a reward after exams.:-)

This is only marginally topical, but I've wondered if Hermione and OOtP!Ginny are purposely "un-girly" in order not to put off male readers? Not so much that it should, or even definitively would, but I feel like there's still an attitude sometimes that we can't even ASK boys to read about girls.

It's definitely considered just an accepted fact in kids' lit that girls will read about boys but boys will not read about girls. It's understandable, if unfortunate, because boys are socialized to think that identifying with a girl makes them a sissy, period. But it's an interesting idea that Ginny and Hermione are part of this idea and you could be right. That's part of why I find it interesting that when it comes to girls displaying stereotypical "girlie" behavior Harry is completely put off--by Cho's crying, by Pansy's fawning, by Lavender and Parvati's giggling.

The suspicions I find myself having concerning the Gryffindor girls are probably in the way they manage to be both not-girl and girl. That is, on one hand they're not girlie so Harry can have actual conversations with them without their seeming like they're from Venus. This was pretty much the way I always was in school--I never had trouble getting along with boys and was probably liked (meaning platonically, not in the sense of being fancied) by a lot of them. But that also led, in high school, to sometimes feeling rejected as a girl, because while my friends seemed to prefer to hang out with me, they developed crushes on "those other girls."

Ginny and Hermione don't have this problem--they are both the boys' friends and clearly attractive. Ginny dates tons of boys. Hermione is sometimes overlooked by Harry and Ron, particularly in GoF, but that's more because they're stupid and clueless than their not finding her attractive. Ron now seems to be making the first fumbling steps towards seeing her as attractive, and besides she already established herself by going to the ball with the handsome Quidditch star. In this way Hermione and Ginny are sort of both far beyond someone like Pansy who set her sights on Draco early on and appears to have just stuck with him. Even if Hermione and Ginny wind up with Ron and Harry in the end, it will be clear they could have had just about anybody.

I think it just bothers me that it seems like we're frequently reminded that Pansy is "dog-faced" right before she does or says something awful. I don't feel like we get reminded of Draco's, er, pointiness, quite so often, but then again, we see him a lot, so it isn't as if we need to be reminded what he looks like.

Yes--and it's funny how Draco's looks are kind of a debate in fandom. Some people insist he's supposed to be hideous while fandom authors often make him a sex god. I'd say that in canon he is described as attractive. Not in terms of being an Adonis, because he is pale and pointy--to me he seems like just a normal looking boy with pale coloring and sharp features. But he's got a lot of energy (what lj user="black_dog"> once described as a "vigorous courseness") that draws the eye--he swaggers, he juggles, he makes an entrance. More importantly, his eyes often glitter, he lolls against trees and his impossibly sleek hair shines in the sun. He's one of the few villains who isn't exactly ugly. His mother is also described as being conventionally attractive, if not for her expression. It's not that Draco's described as handsome, by any means, and I don't know if his energy is supposed to come across as attractive--it's probably just supposed to be annoying. But compared to most of the other people Harry can't stand he does pretty well!

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Wow, I wanted to answer this afternoon but I just finished catching up on NA and boy, I am so incredibly ticked at Gryffindors and Dumbledore and whoever contributed to call the rematch. *thumbs down* I need to work out my stress waxing poetic about these overlooked Slytherin kids.

I am incredibly conflicted about JKR’s intentions in drawing the Slytherins as she does. I try to isolate my projections from what’s in the actual text, but with all of them I see a compelling if scant subtext and I can’t help wondering if she’s purposely making them likable in less direct ways than the Gryffindor girls.

I mean I don’t have a beef with Hermione or Ginny, but I don’t even like them in the way I like such minor characters like Millicent and Pansy. And as you say, no, it’s not because they’re Slytherins, it’s precisely because they have unusual characterisations – they seem to represent sides of humanity that aren’t very popular as a general thing (Pansy’s girliness, immaturity and vendetta, Millicent and her almost manly ways). It’s like, with Hermione and Ginny you get the likable traits so easily laid down by the text, you don’t have to be particularly discriminating to enjoy them, they are nice people. But with Pansy and Millicent, they are the kind of people that exist in RL and very few writers want to transpose in fiction because their distinguishing traits are neither particularly catchy, neither loud and winning, neither especially nice and admirable. I have a vexed interest in writing that flashes out the more uneasy sides of humanity and the ones that aren’t an immediate success among the public – Ginny and Hermione sometimes sound even super-human in Rowling’s effort to make the readers sympathise with them.

Malfoy, too, recognizes the wonder of Hermione as he stands beside his own date?

That’s exactly what I mean.

I also am very invested in the rediscovery of the monster as an alien and in general the refusal of the concept of monster – which probably makes me not exactly the best reader for many texts I encountered that simply assumed I would dislike certain characters just because they were seen as bad by the protagonists. I always tend to watch at the characters that I am supposed to dislike and try to see them as humans instead, see where they come from. This isn’t limited to villains because I am some sort of posturing goth – I feel the same about Sirius, for example. I am sort of saddened by the way many of his fans and his detractors alike seem to outwardly reject the perceived ‘dishumanity’ in him: his shortcoming essentially, but it seems that people still tend to attribute negative traits to ouside groups (the monsters) instead than admitting they’re implied in human nature, ie it could be any of us.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I feel many have the same attitude toward weakness as well, not just nastiness: if a character isn’t strong and brave and upstanding it seems he’s somehow lacking. I think this account for the lack of interest in Pansy (other than the lack of text): Pansy’s girliness and whining mean she’s weak, and many readers want heroes to identify with, not people who could very well reflect their lowest instincts.

This is of course wild speculation and in no way a definite assessment of Rowling’s morals, but… I am a bit disturbed by the way she marginalise certain types of people in her books. In the economy of the narration, Pansy sometimes comes across as a victim of the authority, ie her writer, who tries so hard to make her dislikable and laughable especially if compared to the one she offers as a role model – Hermione. In a way, it’s like the whole dynamic she’s trying to creare between the typical stuck-up group the Slytherin represent (the bullies) and the brave geeks (the Gryffindors) is completely reversed in meta terms of the relationship between her and her characters. It’s like she really enjoys, for example, to humiliate Draco time and again, and Draco as a character is completely defenceless in front of the writer - the God of his universe. Now this sounds incredibly wanky and I am aware it’s in part derived from some projections of mine, so I’m not saying that this is a vendetta against bullies or this is how things go. I’m just saying that it’s a sensation I had. It’s possibly the reason why I think of Draco and Pansy as outsiders: in their fictional universe they’re upper-class and rich and I’m supposed to perceive them as perfectly integrated, but from an outside perspective (the reader belonging to another universe watching in) they are the one the author seems to brush off.

Then again the other half of the time I think she’s cleverly building up a big surprise with the Slytherin, so a judgement I can intellectually stay behind is suspended until book 7. These are just feelings.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

OMG, I could just go through all three posts and say, "Yes yes yes, that's it!"

I also am very invested in the rediscovery of the monster as an alien and in general the refusal of the concept of monster – which probably makes me not exactly the best reader for many texts I encountered that simply assumed I would dislike certain characters just because they were seen as bad by the protagonists.

Probably the very reason I became an X-Phile and got so angry at CC for betraying his own story in the end and putting the evil "out there." That's exactly what I loved about that show--along with that quote, "What's not to love?" there's my favorite from that ep, "Hey, he's not monster!" LOL!

In general, though, I'm disturbed too at this reaction fans have of passing these extreme judgments on characters that do things wrong. There's times where I'll have a problem with something a character does and someone will say, "But they had this justification, they're not horrible!" and I'll be like, "Errr..of course they're not. I didn't think they were." But I think people get used to seeing things in extremes so they forget you can have a problem with a character or describe something they did in a negative way without condemning them to evil. Plus, it's the grey areas that have been the most interesting thusfar in canon--another reason I hold out hope the Slytherins will get their day in the sun. Snape is so great the way he is, why would someone wan to turn him into this big victim. That, as I think I said, is a lot of what I like about the Slytherins--I agree with you that in many ways they show us the way that most people react to unhappiness. Actually, that's why I've always had this real attachment to Draco as Harry's shadow, because in so many ways he behaves the way a boy in Harry's situation really would--Harry gets treated like dirt for 11 years and somehow manages to be basically well-adjusted but most people wouldn't have those kinds of social skills.

Sirius and Snape are especially good examples of this kind of thing, because Sirius has been put through more unfair torment than practically any other character and Snape has probably been the character who's been the most abusive for no reason to Harry. So it's strange to think that there are people who can consider Snape the big victim and completely condemn Sirius as teh evil. Not that I'm saying the opposite is true at all--I don't think we should see Sirius as the big innocent and Snape as the big baddie either. But you just have to wonder what people are really reacting to with them.

[idlerat.livejournal.com]

I just love your reading of the Yule Ball sequence in the context of Hermione's and Pansy's respective roles and characters, and then pairing it with the contrast between Pansy and Millicent--just outstanding.

::applause::

Interesting that the other two Gryffindor girls are a matched pair (only one binary per house, ladies!) And that it makes sense, in house, only to contrast Hermione with girlie girls (one of whose attributes is to be friends with other girls) and not with a tomboy, even though Hermione really *isn't* a tomboy (she's bad at sports, she's very feelings-oriented, she cleans up well). Also, the friends-with-other-girls thing represents another axis of comparison, since Pansy and Hermione are actually alike in being closest to the the alpha male(s) of their house and year.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Also, the friends-with-other-girls thing represents another axis of comparison, since Pansy and Hermione are actually alike in being closest to the the alpha male(s) of their house and year.

Yes-she's usually with C&G and Draco, but other times she's with "a pack" of faceless girls. I like that we have an example like Hermione, because she's more like me and probably many other women--somebody who isn't a tomboy but isn't girlie either.

[kylandra.livejournal.com]

Hi, got here through a link on quickquote. I found this really interesting!

Pansy has never been described as pretty but she's often made remarks about other peoples' looks. She hangs around with a gang of other girls. She flirts in a hyper-girlie way in PoA. So I think it's safe to assume she's supposed to be the girl who cares about fashion and probably make-up. A ball is one of the few places Pansy might possibly outshine Hermione...and yet she looks meh.

On the one hand I think this is kind of neat, in that it avoids the standard "super pretty bimbo bitch oppressing the poor nerdy girl" by having Pansy actually not look as great as she'd like. On the other hand I do think Rowling went rather overboard with Hermione's Cinderella moment and I have some discomfort with the way all the girls we're not supposed to like are ugly. Hmmm.

Her face belongs to Janeane Garofalo, who is in no way ugly but is also actually believable as the not-pretty girl in a movie (as opposed to the supermodel wearing glasses while parting her hair crookedly). Plus MB is described just as she is in canon: she's big. She's strong.

I sort of think of C.J. from West Wing in that she's very tall and not supermodel pretty though she's still attractive. Though ultimately I think she probably looks a lot more like Chyna. Hmm, yeah, I think that works quite well for a grown-up Millicent.

I'm glad she's allowed to be a villain and not the sad, big girl who shows us how nice some other, prettier girl is. I like that Millicent is in the house with all the anger because when I think of her stereotype it seems like she'd either got to be sad or angry and angry is much better.

Amen! Bring on the rage! Seriously, though, I like the thought that Millicent is owning her size, making the best use of it that she can and not taking any crap from anybody about it.

I would really love to see more of the internal workings of Slytherin and to get a more fair account of the people in it. *sigh* Hopefully JKR will come through and rip Harry's comforting prejudices and assumptions to shreds and really show us that the Slytherins can be bastards but they really *are* human beings and not just ugly caricatures. Until then I guess I'll wallow in more fanfic. ;)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

On the one hand I think this is kind of neat, in that it avoids the standard "super pretty bimbo bitch oppressing the poor nerdy girl" by having Pansy actually not look as great as she'd like. On the other hand I do think Rowling went rather overboard with Hermione's Cinderella moment and I have some discomfort with the way all the girls we're not supposed to like are ugly.

Definitely--there's nothing wrong with Pansy not being as pretty as she wants to be. That's something I like about her, actually. But realistically Hermione isn't either. I guess maybe I feel kind of robbed by it, like Hermione really isn't a girl I can identify with because the downside of who she is has been removed.

I sort of think of C.J. from West Wing in that she's very tall and not supermodel pretty though she's still attractive. Though ultimately I think she probably looks a lot more like Chyna. Hmm, yeah, I think that works quite well for a grown-up Millicent.

Oh, I love the idea of Millicent being like CJ.:-D

Amen! Bring on the rage! Seriously, though, I like the thought that Millicent is owning her size, making the best use of it that she can and not taking any crap from anybody about it.


Yeah! She just turns everything on its head by owning it instead of being ashamed or trying to diet herself into a different body or walking around with her shoulders slumped.

Hopefully JKR will come through and rip Harry's comforting prejudices and assumptions to shreds and really show us that the Slytherins can be bastards but they really *are* human beings and not just ugly caricatures.

Here's hoping!

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

This is interesting but I'm not certain you're taking into account the biased narrator. For one thing, Harry notices and remembers boys more than girls -- we have two girls in Slytherin described but probably four or five in the year. Also, where's the other Gryffindor girl? (This is probably more an effect of Rowling herself than something intentional but it's no less true.) Secondly, Harry insults anything and anyone who upsets or annoys him. Even Ron and Hermione. Hermione is "shrill" whenever he disagrees with her, for example.

This isn't to say that both Millicent and Pansy aren't unattractive just that they may not be exactly as they seem.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Very good point--in fact, I started thinking about how JKR's view bleeds into Harry's when it comes to things like this. Like sometimes Harry is reacting out of his own personality but other times the characters are seen through the author.

But I agree that whatever descriptions we here are not necessarily supposed to be accurate. That was my reaction to the Pansy photo from PoA--I saw some people said she "wasn't supposed to be pretty," but I thought "pug-faced" just referred to her having a flat face and upturned nose that because "pug-faced" when she annoyed Harry. Millicent is probably more accurate in that she appears first in a fairly neutral situation, but still. Presumably were the Slytherins the pov characters Hermione would be described as buck-toothted or horse-faced or something. Meanwhile, Rita Skeeter describes both Hermione and Pansy as attractive!

[cleverthylacine]

I like pink frills. I have therefore always liked Pansy.

Honestly, I don't think Rowling likes feminine women very much.

[cleverthylacine]

I mean, Ginny had to become a tomboy to be cool, Pansy is portrayed as a bitch and a failure at looking good, and Parvati and Lavender are idiots. Cho is vapid and Marietta's a sneak.

This is probably because feminine girls are generally not drawn to the rah-rah-go-go-gryffindor ethos Rowling seems to espouse, unless they're cheerleading.

I am completely feminine in my usual taste, style of dress and interests. I am also big and dark like Millicent. *shrug* It's a life.

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

OMG my great love for the Slytherin girls has just been deeply enhanced by pretty, dark-haired Pansy picture. I am a genius, I tell you, a genius.
I do hate the way JKR seems to reject the girly stereotypes while embracing the, you know, *good* girly qualities... preeetty and sooo attractive to men, and you're like, no, if you want to portray the 'popular bitches' you *really have to give them that.* Negative=OMGnastySlytherin, positive=coolGryffindor. And Harry and Ron, they don't have to be handsome, but all the girls will be secretly pretty or death, fire, mayhem!
hence I take a stand by loving Pansy's Girliest Moment Ever, crying over Draco's attack by hippogriff. Cutest. Thing. Ever. So innocent and sweet of her, I can't see Hermione crying over Ron or Harry getting slashed by an animal. and these are the people who in some fanon are brought up on animal sacrifice and ritual sex and abuse? Um... yeah. Sure. 'Scuse me.
Slytherins so innocent and narky. Bless.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I do hate the way JKR seems to reject the girly stereotypes while embracing the, you know, *good* girly qualities... preeetty and sooo attractive to men, and you're like, no, if you want to portray the 'popular bitches' you *really have to give them that.*

Yes! It's kind of like the thing with the Slytherins in general--they're supposed to be the popular rich kids, but all the things that give them power are taken away. If nobody wants to be friends with them then HOW CAN THEY BE THE POPULAR PEOPLE?

I was just looking for the first time at the Mad Magazine spoofs and Draco was introduced with something like, "I'm Draino Malformed, the obnoxious child of priviledge! Despite all my money and good connections Harry still manages to beat me at everything! That's why these books are filed under FICTION!"

Love that.:-)

And yeah, it's weird the way sometimes the girls are so dismissive of too much emotion, though Hermione is occasionally emotional herself. Like what's with all the Cho hate?? I can understand Harry's being freaked out by it but it seems to just anger everybody else as well. Suddenly she's the big loser although previously she was perfectly nice even when she was unfairly matched up against Harry's firebolt.

I think that's also why I keep being brought up by people describing Draco's injury as being fake. I mean yes, he milks it and is happy to let Hagrid get sacked over it, but it wasn't a fake injury. His friends' reactions (especially Pansy's) aren't all that over the top!

[t0ra-chan.livejournal.com]

I know this entry is pretty old, but something about the Yule ball and Hermione crossed my mind recently. Because it's not that Hermione was made out to be better than Pansy when she was prettified, but she was also shown to be more desirable before that. Think about it, Parvati (and Padma), who are supposed to be the prettiest girls in Harry's year acording to Dean Thomas hadn't been asked out before Harry (and Ron) come along. And this was already pretty late and they were more of a last resort than somebody the boys wanted to spend their time with.

Hermione on the other hand had three boys asking her out. First Viktor (famous with his own fan club, who could probably go with any girl he wanted), then Neville and then Ron, even if this was more out of convenience with him. But Viktor and Neville did want to go with her and Ron considered her more than any of the other girls in his year.

So here we have the two prettiest girls in the year who have to date two boys who could care less about them, while Hermione, the bushy-haired bookworm, has three guys who want to spent their time with her. There is something very off with this picture.

Tora_Chan