Malfoy's Court

[sistermagpie]

Yes, I'm afraid it's another meta-post--the discussions always inspire follow-ups! This one sort of spins off the idea of the Trio being the model of friendship to which everyone should aspire (as opposed to Malfoy and his goons) and asks how exactly does Slytherin work?



On the subject of the Trio being a model for friendship, I'm not thinking of it in terms of whether one would rather be friends with Ron Weasley or Gregory Goyle. It's the dynamics that interest me. The Trio is often described as being "equals" as opposed to Slytherin's dominating Draco with his two bodyguards. It's assumed there is something wrong with the second dynamic but in fact that's not always the case. In some ways, this dynamic makes the relationships more stable. For instance, take the shipping question. I don't get involved in H/Hr vs. R/Hr but if one of them happens, that could screw up the dynamic. Already this friendship gets in the way of dating: when Hermione goes to the ball with Victor Ron gets jealous, Ron's own request that Hermione go with him becomes insulting and Cho gets jealous of Hermione during her date with Harry.

By contrast, the Slytherin group is stable: Draco is clearly the leader, a position he maintains through domination and also reward (jokes, chocolates). The female member is brought in from outside. Pansy fits easily into the configuration as Draco's girl (whether they're dating or not). C&G seem to understand the level of respect accorded to her on that account while not feeling their own position has been lowered to make room for her. The question of leadership is less clear with the Trio, which is why Ron can be conflicted about his own worth and Harry unreliable about whether he's the leader or not. In OotP Harry finally began to assume this position outright, but he didn't slip into the position as naturally as Malfoy seems to. He's yet to produce the chocolate, if you take my meaning.:-)

So this leads me to the whole Slytherin question: exactly what are they supposed to represent? Sometimes I get annoyed at the way their dynamic is presented in fanfic, usually as a nest of vipers or a house of people who wish they had been sorted into Gryffindor and now feel beaten down under the evil Malfoy. I just don't find it believable that everyone sucks up to Malfoy because of his money or who his father is in the way that idea seems commonly understood. I find it hard to believe that Crabbe and Goyle, who can't resist eating cupcakes floating in front of their noses, have held down jobs as professional bodyguards since they were 11. Are they goon savants? I also think it's odd when Draco is portrayed at treating his friends far worse than he treats Harry Potter. (Apparently the day Draco becomes witty and sophisticated is also the day he starts referring to Pansy as a cunt at breakfast.)

The fact is so far Slytherin is the house that presents the most unified front. Presumably they, too, have their infighting. We know about the tensions in Gryffindor: Hermione isn't very friendly with the other girls in her year, Ron and Harry aren't speaking for a bit of fourth year, Harry doesn't speak to Seamus for most of fifth. We don't know how obvious these rifts were to outsiders but they may have been noticed. Slytherin, by contrast, almost always acts en masse or lets one person speak for them. I don't think this is because they are hive-minded or they don't have the same kinds of personality clashes the kids we know do. But I also don't see how, if they were really as constantly backstabbing as they're sometimes portrayed, we've never seen them capitalize on the weakness of another Slytherin. Obviously they have a policy of not showing conflict to outsiders, but that doesn't mean the dungeons are the exact opposite of what they appear in public, that everyone who pretends to like each other hates each other and they are incapable of pleasant conversation.

So how do they operate? It seems to me that in almost every scene involving Slytherins there is one thing that is displayed: a sense of hierarchy. This, to me, seems to be what they mostly represent. This obviously stands in contrast to Gryffindor's general policy of listening to one's heart and having loyalty to one's friends. Authority is almost always suspected by the main characters--even those authority figures they like are only listened to when they say what the kids want to hear. Harry's impulses may have led to tragedy in the DoM, but I think really only Snape saw the lesson here as having anything to do with listening to one's superiors. For the non-Slytherins it seemed to have more to do with not feeling you have to do everything alone.

In OotP we're told Slytherin is associated with kids from the old Pureblood families. This is also the book, iirc, where Harry looks at the Slyth table from across the hall and gets the impression of Malfoy "holding court." I think that description of Harry's is accurate, that Slytherin represents a traditional, old-fashioned view of society that's very strictly structured in terms of hierarchy. Nowadays this is generally looked down upon as a horrible, oppressive system and in many ways of course it was, but it was also the way society functioned for hundreds of years and like most any other system it's not entirely without value (for an idealized portrayal of this society, see Tolkien's LOTR. Sam may have obtained a higher position in the hierarchy by the end, but the hierarchy is still firmly and happily in place). So I don't think it's quite as far-fetched as it seems when fanfic writers suggest a Byzantine "code" in Slytherin which most kids have already started learning at 11. I'm not expert on the aristocracy, but it *is* known for codes of manners that seem odd to outsiders, a code of manners kids learn early.

This is something I feel gets underscored in all their scenes:

* The first time we see C&G they're flanking Draco, seen and not heard. Later, when Draco is with his parents at the QWC, it is he who is seen and not heard.

* Everybody knows how much I love the B&B scene, and one of the things I think people miss about the big power play/domination going on is where Mr. Borgin fits in. Mr. Borgin is nobody. In the beginning he is sucking up to 12-year-old Draco. Lucius not only tells him sucking up to Draco will not please his father, but then insults Draco in front of Mr. Borgin. This adds a double humiliation in ways it would to, say, Ron, for whom Mr. B. would probably just be another adult rather than something like a servant. The fact that Lucius chooses to do this, imo, shows that Draco has been brought up to understand the slight. Even so Draco never directly challenges Lucius' authority.

* Draco also doesn’t seem to challenge Marcus Flint, his Quidditch captain. He may be a brat, but he’s actually not hard for an authority figure to control. Even Hagrid can do it.

* The Slytherins are more likely to undermine authority than challenge it (as Harry openly challenges Umbridge and Hermione Trelawney). They say things to each other so the teacher can hear, ask pointed questions that show disrespect while still staying within bounds. Snape dominates Harry personally in class, baiting him in the hope he’ll snap and get detention. Hagrid's battles with Malfoy are more indirect, without that promise of punishment, existing within the boundaries of teacher/student relationship. In fact, how is it that Draco almost brings Hagrid down? It's when he's hurt doing something Hagrid's told him to do (even if Draco wasn't listening to the directions carefully and so makes a mistake). The reactions to things again underscore the conflict: The Gryffindors feel it was up to Draco to not do something stupid; the Slytherins immediately look to the authority figure, whose job it is to keep the class safe, for the blame. Note that no matter how much Neville screws up in Potions, I don’t there’s ever been an accident Snape wasn’t prepared to handle.

* Just as the Slytherin boys seem to defer to Draco, Pansy, too, is often shown with a "gang" of faceless girls for whom she speaks. Interestingly, Pansy does not seem to be the girl who tries to date older boys and gain prestige that way. Instead she's chosen her guy and stuck with him--I think this is because she actually likes Draco as a friend. If she's just in it for the status there's surely far better pickings than Draco. It marks Pansy as one type of girl rather than another.

* In PoA Draco does his Dementor act for "older Slytherins." Harry has rarely shown much interest in students outside his year unless there's a reason. He knows the kids who play Quidditch, the other Seekers, the twins, who are family. But in general he couldn't care less who the dominant 7th year Gryffindors are. Draco, otoh, performs for the 7th years. They have approval worth winning for him at 13.

* Draco's relationship with Snape, especially in the pre-Pensieve scene, struck me as full of natural, unthinking respect of authority. He calls Snape "Professor" and "Sir," and Snape calls him "Draco," while most teachers call the students by their last names all the time. I think Snape calls him "Malfoy" in class, thus demonstrating a social rule of not having the personal relationship spill out into class. (Hagrid, who has a personal relationship with the kids, says "Harry."

* Draco does not taunt Harry in the pre-Pensieve scene, nor in the box at the WC, because of the presence of adults. His mouthing, "Remedial Potions?" is a perfect demonstration of Draco finding a way to do it without bothering Snape. In class Draco follows Snape's lead in tormenting Harry, never stepping over the line himself.

* This is my favorite: it's a sign of Draco's extreme stress at the end of OotP that for the first time he refers to Lucius as "Dad." Presumably this is what one calls Father at home, but in public the more formal "Father" is expected. I don't think this is merely pretension on Draco's part-I think it's second nature by now. I think it's another sign of a rather complex code of manners.

I think what makes the Slytherins operate so smoothly is this rigid hierarchy, but I think it's wrong to characterize it as simple oppression when it's really probably more a way of life. This gets back to the whole question of people being friends with Malfoy because they think they can get something from him. First of all, remember that it's suggested all or most of the Slytherins are part of this aristocracy somehow. Even Tom Riddle as the Heir of Slytherin, surely. One of the reasons rich people are friends with rich people, I suspect, is that they *don't* have to worry about gold diggers. So I do think the Malfoy name might mean something to the other students, but not in the sense that Draco is the son of a movie star in a regular high school. It's probably more like everyone's parents are in pictures and Draco's Dad is Harrison Ford...but maybe Millicent's Father is Jerry Bruckheimer. Within this group the kids can make names for themselves, but ultimately these are the only people who really matter to them.

So at the end of CoS Malfoy might not longer be strutting around quite so much like he owns the school, but he's not suddenly an outcast either. I'd hope the same would hold true with Lucius in prison. Other students might think it would be awful for your Dad to be arrested that way, but the aristocracy might still consider him one of their own. That world can offer both offer more freedom while being more constrictive. So anyway, I find this fascinating. If one was going to do a story about Slytherin in-fighting I think "Dangerous Liaisons" might make a better model than Wild Kingdom, whatever Harry might think. It seems like few people really want to portray the Slytherins as the blue-blood kids. But then, JKR doesn't really use this either, because in canon the good things about them are taken away. Instead of coming across like children of privilege that could occasionally seem exotic and sophisticated, they seem more like grotesques. Actually, that's kind of an old Hollywood trick isn't it? Like the way in Pretty in Pink Molly Ringwald wears the cool clothes (until she destroys that lovely dress at the end!) and the rich girls look awful. In reality, of course, those vintage threads Molly's wearing would probably be expensive while it's the ugly stuff the rich girls are wearing you'd pick up at the mall.

Draco’s taunts about money are crude and obvious. He never gets to display the sort of icy disdain he could. He'll taunt people for having frayed robes, but has yet to have the chance to take subtle digs at the quality, style or designer. I feel like the class issue is something JKR has more feeling for than the race issue, myself. Draco's never really scored a hit off Hermione. She's been hurt by Snape and Ron more than the word Mudblood. But I believe Ron's periodic anger when it comes to money, whether it's inspired by Malfoy or Harry himself. But if the Slytherins are based on rich kids from Rowling's past, maybe she's avoiding the aspect of herself that envied and admired the rich kids and thus allowed them to bother her.


Sorry that got WAY LONG. I don't know how, but it did.

Comments

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

You ROCK.

Slytherin "Dangerous Liaisons." Draco's dad is Harrison Ford and maybe Millicent's is Jerry Bruckheimer.

And you spotted the undercurrents in the B&B scene, oh YES.

And Draco acting up for the older Slytherins.

And let us not forget "Potter Stinks" and "Weasley Is Our King."

Draco is underappreciated as a subspecies of class clown, I think.

[cleverthylacine]

There are two main reasons why I like Draco so much.

1. He's a lot like me as a kid.

2. He's the funniest character in the book and he quite often says what I'd like to.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

And I agree-there are times when people will say how in canon he's never funny (as opposed to fanon) and I think, "Um, there are certainly times he makes me laugh." He's not Oscar Wilde, but hey, sometimes he's funny anyway! He really is a clown.

[cleverthylacine]

I've always written Slytherins as Dangerous Liaisons...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You know, I had a feeling you did but I have still never just sat down and read it. Reason 298 why I should find the time asap.

[(Anonymous)]

Hope you don't mind a comment by an anonymous nobody...

1. I like your take on internal Slytherin dynamics.

2. The popular fanfic presentation of Slytherins as backstabbing bastards whos only ever manipulate and use other people irritates me - I'm a Slytherin fan -, but it also confuses me.

Can it really be that no one, no one at all, remembers what the Sorting Hat sang back in Harry's first year? The part about finding "real friends" in Slytherin? Here's the quote:

Or perhaps in Slytherin
You'll find your real friends
Those cunning folk use any means
To achieve their ends.

Everyone seems to remember the second part, but I don't believe I have ever seen anyone capitalise on the first. Collective memory loss, perhaps?

--Ziska

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hope you don't mind a comment by an anonymous nobody...

Not at all--I'm a nobody too.:-)

Everyone seems to remember the second part, but I don't believe I have ever seen anyone capitalise on the first. Collective memory loss, perhaps?


Yes! The only people who seem to remember that line are people who like Slytherin. To me it seems like the ambitious trait shouldn't make friendship impossible, but be a challenge to the writer to show how that works. I mean, a lot of the house qualities could cause friction in a friendship. But some people seem to have a hard time even imagining the Slytherins having a civil conversation much less having a friend.

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

First of all, remember that it's suggested all or most of the Slytherins are part of this aristocracy somehow.

I don't think you can say that there is any proof of this. Draco's parents do have money, but Lucius Malfoy is still "Mister Malfoy", not any number of minor titles that do exist in British society (and Wizarding Society, as two of the house ghosts are a knight and a baron). Snape himself is certainly no aristocrat -- a poor boy with a chip on each shoulder and his eyes on the prize is a much better description.

Slytherin as a functioning hierarchy compared to a Gryffindor band-level society makes sense. Ambitious children are sorted to Slytherin as a training ground -- they learn how hierarchies function and how to advance through one without it being life or death, as the Housemaster can quell any intervene if there is serious trouble.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

don't think you can say that there is any proof of this. Draco's parents do have money, but Lucius Malfoy is still "Mister Malfoy", not any number of minor titles that do exist in British society (and Wizarding Society, as two of the house ghosts are a knight and a baron). Snape himself is certainly no aristocrat -- a poor boy with a chip on each shoulder and his eyes on the prize is a much better description.

Oh yes--you're absolutely right! I was thinking more of that vague reference to them having the correct blood somehow, but Snape was definitely a poor boy, if Pureblood. And I doubt anybody knew Tom Riddle's heritage himself. That's a really good point about titles because I had always sort of assumed Wizarding Society didn't have them, yet the ghosts do. We've never heard of any titled kids at the school, though, and if it's the only one in Britain you'd think some of them would be there. Not that I have any idea how that would show itself, exactly.

Slytherin as a functioning hierarchy compared to a Gryffindor band-level society makes sense. Ambitious children are sorted to Slytherin as a training ground -- they learn how hierarchies function and how to advance through one without it being life or death, as the Housemaster can quell any intervene if there is serious trouble.

It does make sense--and what's kind of funny is that of course the other houses develop some hierarchy too. Clearly James was pretty dominant in the school in general, and so were his friends. It's just a different type of thing.

[moojja.livejournal.com]

You don't need to titles or money to have a functioning hierarchy. Maybe in Slytherin, it's more being a gentleman/lady verses the common man/woman. There still is a social structure, but no titles. Besides why would the wizard world have titles? Since they are awarded by the Queen. Who, I assume, is a muggle. Maybe the ghosts got their titles before the division of the magical world and the muggle word. It would make sense that any old pureblood family would drop their muggle titles, in order to show a disdain for the muggle world.

Btw, what part of the book mentioned Snape as a poor boy?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

Thanks SM, this really needs to be written, and it needs to be written by you :)

I of course love your illustrations, especially the Snape/Hagrid/Draco bits. Draco does not expect Hagrid as a person, but he still respects his teacher 'status' (and in SS, Hagrid's power to make him expelled should Draco choose not to go into the FF). That's why Draco does whatever Hagrid tells him to, though with a great pout, some whinning and some fruitless protesting.

Slytherin's lack of aristocratic manner, might have been JKR's careless mistake.. it could also be her lack of comprehension of, or lack of interest in the particular subject?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_rp_zeal_/]

Sorry, Draco does not respect Hagrid as a person..

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I of course love your illustrations, especially the Snape/Hagrid/Draco bits. Draco does not expect Hagrid as a person, but he still respects his teacher 'status' (and in SS, Hagrid's power to make him expelled should Draco choose not to go into the FF).

Yes, exactly. It's almost reflexive to him, I think--in a way that I sometimes wonder if I'm supposed to fault him for. But yeah, all of his undermining of teacher's authority is obviously done with the knowledge that they *are* an authority. It's like, people will get angry at the way Draco never does anything bad in front of the teachers, like this makes him all the more a coward, when from my pov this is just good sense and also probably instinct.

Slytherin's lack of aristocratic manner, might have been JKR's careless mistake.. it could also be her lack of comprehension of, or lack of interest in the particular subject?

Could be, I'm not sure. I mean, it's not like an upper-class kid can't turn adopt an attitude they think is tough or be just as obnoxious as anyone else. But we never see the Slytherins making very good use of all the weapons that should be at their disposal if they're privileged. I wonder sometimes if it's not like Mira said how Hermione often comes across like a non-intelligent's idea of what an intelligent person is like, rather than the real thing. So Slytherin could be false in that way too.

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Oh Sister M, in the midst of my literary theory study thou art a beacon of light. you mentioned his court! I just love that line, for my own t00by little reasons, much to do with 'hee. court.'

I also love your non-black-and-white view of the world. Yes, Slytherins do have a different set of values and a hierarchy unlike Gryffindor (though your essay made me think of this to an extent I had previously not done, and I will ponder). But of course again, they are not astute politicians. Lucius Malfoy may well be, but the man is over forty. These are kids, not *triple hee score for you* 'goon savants.' and yes, dude. If Pansy were going for the Kewl Boy she'd be following around Cedric (well... not currently...) or Marcus Flint, or even Harry himself. I love Draco, and I'm sure he is funny, wealthy and not bad-looking, but he'd be kind of an embarrassing boyfriend to have.

'Dear Mother - Today at school my boyfriend got turned into a ferret, beaten up, laughed at and hit with mud. No, he's not being bullied, Mom, for God's sake, he is the Cool Kid. Luckily he got transformed back. Unluckily, he is still short. I did suggest iron pills to him since you were concerned he was anemic, but then he did the very loud voice and the hand gestures again. I don't think he's gay, I think he's just artistic. We have him down to three Harry Potter taunts a day now. Love Pansy.'

If Pansy's in this for the prestige, she is stupider than anyone has ever dreamed of, and her making prefect clearly indicates that Dumbledore takes bribes.

Personally, I love their little system of respect. I mean let's face it, Hogwarts itself has a fairly archaic system, with house points and prefects being such a big deal. Likewise the 'sirs' and the last names being used - it reeks of traditionalism, much like the Slytherins. Hogwarts was *built* for people who thought like the Slytherins. (I mean, we had prefects and house points at my school. Nobody cared. I myself turned down the signal honour of being a prefect, which clearly no Hogwarts student would do. Though it may amuse you to know that my house colour was green, and we did have a notable reputation for cheating at sports day).

So really, from the Slytherins' point of view this Mugglish behaviour *is* out of order and out of context. Harry and the others adopting Muggle ways are totally the barbarians at the gates. And I'd much rather deal with a rebellious student like Draco than one like Hermione (storming out of a class and refusing to go back because she didn't like the lessons? My headmistress would have verbally bitchslapped the kid) and of course, *far* rather be taught by Snape than Hagrid.

Which only leaves to add that the formality inherent in the Slytherin way of life only makes the part where Snape calls Malfoy 'Draco' in OotP *cuter.* Ah yes, I pretend I can meta, but I'm an idiot fangirl at heart.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I did suggest iron pills to him since you were concerned he was anemic, but then he did the very loud voice and the hand gestures again. I don't think he's gay, I think he's just artistic. We have him down to three Harry Potter taunts a day now. Love Pansy.'

Hee! And isn't it much better to imagine that she actually likes him, like for all his freakishness she just really thinks he's a little prince? So he insults a big monster and gets slashes and to her he's like Saint George facing the dragon. I mean, she's seen the guy at his worst over and over...surely this must be real? (And I love to imagine him coming to see her in the infirmary with her antlers too. She'd be all, "Don't look at me!" and he'd make jokes and hang things from them and say how they're much better looking than anything that could be hexed to grow out of Hermione's head.)

Nobody cared. I myself turned down the signal honour of being a prefect, which clearly no Hogwarts student would do.

Ah! Good, becuase that's always a little bit of belief I have to suspend for the books because it's hard for me to really imagine the kids tripping over themselves for these points. I got kicked off the safety patrol myself for being too snarky about it. Basically, I was the Remus Lupin of my elementary school--yes, I would basically follow the rules myself but when told to enforce things on others or get up early...sorry, no. Can't be bothered.

storming out of a class and refusing to go back because she didn't like the lessons? My headmistress would have verbally bitchslapped the kid

And, uh, did anything happen with that? I can't remember, but did she have to apologize or anything? Especially since she was only in the class because of she was giving control over friggin' TIME ITSELF to take it?

Which only leaves to add that the formality inherent in the Slytherin way of life only makes the part where Snape calls Malfoy 'Draco' in OotP *cuter.* Ah yes, I pretend I can meta, but I'm an idiot fangirl at heart.

Yes! Yes! Yes! *Dances around*

[malafede.livejournal.com]

'Dear Mother - Today at school my boyfriend got turned into a ferret, beaten up, laughed at and hit with mud. No, he's not being bullied, Mom, for God's sake, he is the Cool Kid. Luckily he got transformed back. Unluckily, he is still short. I did suggest iron pills to him since you were concerned he was anemic, but then he did the very loud voice and the hand gestures again. I don't think he's gay, I think he's just artistic. We have him down to three Harry Potter taunts a day now. Love Pansy.'

*Omg fangirls madly!!!*

Ahaha, yes, but don't you remember, Draco is RICH! And like, totally pureblood and what the hell are rich people supposed to do, if not bullying? You can buy a lot of... uh, bullying devices if you're rich, didn't you know? It's like totally a natural call.

Well except if you're Harry Potter and enjoy thinking of yourself as a geek while winning the House Cup every other year and being the jockiest jock in your school.

I swear if all this screwed perspective doesn't lead to some revelation of sort in the last books my head's going to explode.


Which only leaves to add that the formality inherent in the Slytherin way of life only makes the part where Snape calls Malfoy 'Draco' in OotP *cuter.* Ah yes, I pretend I can meta, but I'm an idiot fangirl at heart.

Oh boy, I felt exactly the same about that scene. He's calling him Draco! But he's not supposed to use people's first names! Omg he cares for him, I KNEW!

[dragonelle-fics.livejournal.com]

This is a wonderful essay-- you've really laid out things about the Slytherin hierarchy that I've sensed, but never put into context. There's definitely a distinct social order in place within the House, and I agree, JKR's made it out to have more to do with class than genetic prejudice.

The primary qualities that we see attached to Slytherin include: 1) aristocratic background, 2) pureblood prejudice, 3) ambition, 4) interest in the Dark Arts. But it doesn't look like every student in Slytherin meets every one of those qualifications.

Someone (adinkra?) mentioned in alice_and_lain's journal that JKR conceived Millicent as having only one wizard parent. I wonder how large the social distinction is between "half-blood" and "mudblood"-- mudbloods are obviously more threatening to the social order, since their existence implies that there's more than pure genetics to the inheretance of magical power, but half-bloods might only be regarded as slightly tainted. As you point out, it's adherence to the Slytherin party line that takes precedence.

To be honest, I don't get "ambition" as it applies to Slytherin as a whole. I imagine that's where people get the idea that there's a lot of out-and-out fighting within Slytherin. Draco's clearly invested in staying at the top of the social order, but to me, ambition connotes the desire to reach the *top* of the food chain, and I don't see that in Crabbe or Goyle, or even Millicent, particularly. They're caught up in the Slytherin social order; surely it would be to their advantage to overturn the aristocracy? Or perhaps knowing their own limitations, they prefer to uphold the standing order because doing so gives them protection from falling further down the chain? I'm still not sure I'd call that ambition-- more like clinging to the advantages you've got.

So I'd kind of expect that Slytherin would naturally be divided between a small number of well-educated, intelligent aristocrats (and a few ambitious non-aristocrats like Snape who seek to gain status from associating with and emulating the aristocrats) and a bunch of fairly stupid, weak people who need the protection of the aristocracy in maintaining what status they have. The ambitious non-aristocrats would suffer worst from accusations of impure blood, of course, because they'd be the only ones posing a potential threat to the House aristocrats.

Since I've brought up "interest in the Dark Arts," I'll just say briefly that I think it's clear that moral authority (popular rejection of the Dark Arts) often runs contrary to the actual lines of power. Sometimes I think JKR's actually making a point that moral authority is in mostly place to prevent the distribution of power among the masses (Umbridge's discontinuation of practical DADA lessons), but she never goes full-stop with the idea; instead she gives us a tangle of Dumbledore/Weasley/Hermione moralities and seems to ask us which one we prefer as a basis of opposition against the Slytherins. The nobility in its heyday rarely felt confined by the morality of the masses, and that freedom was part of the way in which they held on to power. It seems to me that our Slytherins regard themselves (as a whole) the ruling class; while popular morality on one hand keeps the masses distracted and out of their hair, they are naturally opposed to being trapped under that moral code themselves, apart from paying it lip service.

Eep, stopping now. Slytherin *is* an awful lot to take on in one breath, isn't it? :-)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hee! Great comment! Millicent as half-blood is really interesting, though I can see how it would make sense within the house. We're told the Pureblood gene pool is quite small, so that they eventually all have to bring in some new blood. I imagine it's possible for someone to be many generations Pureblood on one side and Muggle on the other and it would be sort of like having one parent who's from a very good family who married a chorus girl. It would make a difference, but your connections on one side would still be significant.

Draco's clearly invested in staying at the top of the social order, but to me, ambition connotes the desire to reach the *top* of the food chain, and I don't see that in Crabbe or Goyle, or even Millicent, particularly.

Yes! That's exactly what seems off to me too. Ambition makes it sound like they should be constantly bumping each other off--and it would make more sense to use other houses for that as well. Why wouldn't a person low in status in Slytherin not look for status outside the house with which to bargain? It seems like what they really do is guard their own position within that world, like they're very proud of the positions they already have. They probably make strategic alliances, but protecting the structure itself seems important for everyone. We also see, imo, that self-protection is important as well. So Crabbe and Goyle really don't want to be on top, they want to be favored by Draco. And Draco himself seems to have the same instincts for now--what he wants, as black_dog has said, is a man in uniform. In Mira's fic she has Lucius, I think, explain that while Gryffindors have always been the knights in shining armor Slytherins are the advisors to the king, the power behind the throne. That, to me, seems like what they're about. Not clawing their way to the top only to have to fight off everyone from below, but carving out the best position for themselves that's protected and advantageous.

Somebody like Snape, I agree, is an interesting case--Tom Riddle, I guess--would be too. It seems like both of them buy into the romantic notion of an elite but can't ever be part of it.

Since I've brought up "interest in the Dark Arts," I'll just say briefly that I think it's clear that moral authority (popular rejection of the Dark Arts) often runs contrary to the actual lines of power.

The Dark Arts question always interests me as well because I don't really get what they are. It's like the DA stands for "evil" but that's an incredibly nebulous concept. The morals we more often see at play have more to do with choices and values in Gryffindor and those, to me, often seem pretty bad. So it seems like, I agree, the Slytherins sort of feel like under the old ways they would have had access to any magic they wanted and as the elite they would be able to use it against others. It's hard to say exactly where they stand now, though. We know the Malfoys have Dark Arts stuff, but it's unclear exactly what they do with them. We just know they're raided by the Ministry. Unfortunately the Weasleys also have a houseful of contraband and there we do know what it is: charmed Muggle artefacts. There we have some idea of why this stuff is supposed to be illegal and we know Arthur's going against his job to have it. A lot of people seem to assume this is okay because DA stuff is like weapons and Muggle shouldn't be forbidden, but in reality both families have stuff considered dangerous enough to be illegalboth families do it anyway, but one is expressly bad for doing so, one is expressly good for doing so.

[go-back-chief.livejournal.com]

It's so typcial that the nioght I think I finally have time to catch up with all Lj-posts and comments, the list is literary full of new, interesting, posts. I'll never get to catch up. ::whines::

You make many good points, and I definitely agree about the difference between Slytherin and Gryffindor views of authority, and that hierarchy is important in Slytherin and that "Dangerous Liaisons" would probably be a terrific model to show how the conflicts in Slytherin would be (in fact, that's the part of your post that got to me the most, I've always felt that the Slytherins are more subtle, and have more rules and codes, than the other houses.) However, there's nothing really in Canon to indicate that they are all rich and upper class. In fact, Crabbe and Goyle have always struck me as being decidedly working-class, only they're pure-blood working-class, and unlike the Weasleys, they haven't done anything to "disgrace" their family name, in the eyes of the "proud pure-blooded elite families", like the Malfoys.

Oherwise, I think I agree (but I must consider it further), that JKR in general, deals better with the class-question than the race-question, and it's actually interesting how people constantly seem to assume that all Slytherins aren't only racist purebloods, but also filthy rich snobs, like the two things would inevitably go together. I think it's interesting, because JKR is probably partly responsible for this cliche, she might never have stated that other kids than Draco are all those things (ie racist, pure-blood, rich, upperclass and a snob), but people assume that the rest of the Slytherins are same anyway, because we don't have any real indication otherwise. So, in a way, people see Draco, who is by far the most prominent Slytherin, as a model for other Slytherins. And I also think it's very much because the whole Muggle-born/Pureblood-problematic, could very well work as a class-analogy as well as a race-analogy. In fact, since JKR seems to be familiar with this problematic (being a white British woman who's not upper-class anyway), it probably becomes more of a class-analogy than she intended for it to be.

Which brings me to my last point. I think JKR's "British-ness" (and "white-ness"), makes it easier for her to handle class-problematics. As a white person with the same nationality as the country she lives in, she can't have that much first-hand experience with racism. But the class-system seems to be much more ingrained UK, than in many other countries. Basically, it takes three generations to be considered a member of the class you're in ( at least middle class, maybe it takes even more to be considered upper-class?) Now, I know you have class-system in US as well, but I've always had the impression that it's easier to "class-travel" in US, than it is in pretty much any European country. Correct me if I'm worng, but I've just had the impression that money alone, can take you farther than it can here. But, at any rate, my impression also is that the Brits have a much more complicated and deep-seated class-system than the Swedes. The reason I say this is because of a pretty revealing discussion my sister had with her friends when she lived in UK. Here, my sister and I would both be considered middle-class. In fact, so would our parents. It's true that our mum did a class-travel, she grew up in a working-class home, but she herself through plenty of education, and though none of our parents were ever rich, their respective educations alone, merits them as (at least lower) middle class. But in this converation, it turned out that had we lived in UK, we would all be considered working-class. My sister and I as well, because our grand-parents were. So, in conclusion, it seems like it takes a real long time to "class-travel" in UK.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean to suggest they were all rich at all, though Crabbe and Goyle could very well be. Having a good bloodline doesn't always insure money. In fact, one can be part of the elite and have no money as well. But the Sorting Hat makes a point of saying the House was about taking kids from the "best" families, so I thought we should include that in their description, even if all the students aren't part of it.

In fact, since JKR seems to be familiar with this problematic (being a white British woman who's not upper-class anyway), it probably becomes more of a class-analogy than she intended for it to be.

I feel like this is the subject she does better, myself. The questions of race are all fanciful and intellectual. No matter how many times she has Draco say "Mudblood" the fact remains we've *never* seen Hermione have any trouble being Muggleborn *ever.* The struggle of being a Muggle-raised outsider has never been demonstrated despite the fact two of our main characters were raised in this world. Both of them have risen to the top at their school and while Harry sometimes doesn't know things the others do he's never been made to feel inadequate because he wasn't raised a wizard. It's the class issue, imo, where things get real. I believe the Weasleys humiliation and anger when it comes to money.

As a white person with the same nationality as the country she lives in, she can't have that much first-hand experience with racism.

Exactly--and yes, the class system in Britain even today is stricter than it is in America. In fact, that's why I hesitated over using the movie star children analogy because it's so American. Movie stars shoot to the top of our "aristocracy" during their own lifetime. It's totally different than being part of the upper class. We do still recognize the difference between Old Money and New Money, but class in general has probably been very different in the US ever since colonial times when people were really forced to revise their ideas of what was proper or starve to death! But I agree that racism isn't something with which she could have the same first class experience as class prejudice. So why link the two? Worst case scenario is that she's just being unfair and saddling the people she hates with the buzz-word for bad in today's society. (I'm sure there are plenty of snobs that are also racists, of course, but then there are plenty of every kind of person who are racists.) Or perhaps it's just easier.

But then, the problem again for me is that "Mudblood" doesn't seem like a primarily racist term to me anyway, despite the reference to blood, because it just doesn't really seem to parallel racism in our world. We've never yet been told there was a non-white Slytherin, though I don't know that means there couldn't be. The main "non-white" people so far are the Patils and Cho. Dean's black in the movies but I don't know if he's ever described as such in canon. I seem to remember somebody feeling that Pansy had made a racist remark in OotP. It would make sense for JKR to imagine the snobs as white, just as in America you'd probably picture the snobs as being WASPs, but I'd wonder just how "white" they had to be, and if we're to think there's no racism elsewhere in the school.

[ptyx.livejournal.com]

Wonderful post! In my new story, even if the main plot is related to Snape/Harry relationship, I'm trying to present the Slytherins as a united group with a strong sense of hierarchy. And there will be *good* and *nice* Slytherins - though not Draco (sorry! *g*).

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I'm glad to hear this doesn't sound crazy to people!

[malafede.livejournal.com]

You're on a roll! *cheers*

This should so be used as a resource by anyone writing the Slytherins. So thanks! I'll be sure to check it out every time I plot fic. (Not that I do that very often. :D)

You know, all this made me think about two things. One, the Gryffindor are representing democracy as a government system and that actually does fit better with my worldview but in an informal, mostly social environment like this, you could almost say Slytherin hierarchism (? is that a word?) seems like that Platonic ideal of enlightened tyranny, where the tyran was so selfless and inspired he would put his gent's interest before anything else in every administrative choice. Well, this is a bit (!!!) of a stretch of course because say, Draco, is as distant as they go from that selfless ideal but it does simplify decisional processes, doesn't it?

Also, the Slytherins strike me as the kids that come from the old, conservative kind of families that do put order before equality and are scared about any progressive idea that may be introduced in their lifestyle.

The second thing is that I am a manga/anime nerd, and in my many years of reading about Japanese culture, I always found high school (and younger) student to have precisely this kind of hierarchic organisation based on deference and respect. Yeah, even in school. The good students (academically good, but also politically active and yeah, beauty does seem to count) will be taken as role models even by other students of their same age-group, and addressed with suffixes indicating submission like '-san', and would naturally assume leadership. No, it's not the nazi system it may sound, and of course, it's not as fixed as I described it here, but that's a deeply-rooted national culture and even after a century of western contamination.

Yeah, it comes across as totally fake at times, but I'm sure Slytherin relationship can be shallow and self-serving, and I'm not trying to paint the House as heavenly anyway.

And now for some random comments...

Draco also doesn’t seem to challenge Marcus Flint, his Quidditch captain. He may be a brat, but he’s actually not hard for an authority figure to control. Even Hagrid can do it.

I feel this says so much about his character. Draco is the kind of person that loves authority and he’s thrilled when someone who has it takes a liking to him (*cough*Snape*cough*). I think he enjoys being a protégé, and this would be so interesting in the H/D dynamic if for one he stopped fighting completely after the first encounters because Harry is the perfect substitute for his father. He’s the kind of kid that craves power precisely because he doesn’t have it – while oter people like Harry who naturally draw a lot of deference need it the last.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Draco does not taunt Harry in the pre-Pensieve scene, nor in the box at the WC, because of the presence of adults. His mouthing, "Remedial Potions?" is a perfect demonstration of Draco finding a way to do it without bothering Snape. In class Draco follows Snape's lead in tormenting Harry, never stepping over the line himself.

He is such a little toady bastard. You know, the more I insult Draco the more I love him. O_O So wrong, and yet, so right.

I think what makes the Slytherins operate so smoothly is this rigid hierarchy, but I think it's wrong to characterize it as simple oppression when it's really probably more a way of life.

You know, I think this somehow relates to the House Elves issue, because despite all my Slytherin love (and I LOVE them) I don’t think it’s really the healthier place to grow, and even ideologically, I sort of reject hierarchic system. BUT, pretending to change things voicing your opposition from an outside, totally foreign perspective isn’t going to do much good. I also don’t think it should change all that much, it just would be nice if these kids were raised to respect each other rather than dominate each other.

But then, JKR doesn't really use this either, because in canon the good things about them are taken away. Instead of coming across like children of privilege that could occasionally seem exotic and sophisticated, they seem more like grotesques. Actually, that's kind of an old Hollywood trick isn't it? Like the way in Pretty in Pink Molly Ringwald wears the cool clothes (until she destroys that lovely dress at the end!) and the rich girls look awful.

You already know how I feel about this, but dude, that’s not good writing. Even if you wish your heroes were the specialest, coolest kids on the block (and I feel kind of bad saying this because I LIKE Gryffindors) you ought to give their antagonists some credit if you want their supposed oppression to be credible. Where I live we say Non puoi avere la botte piena e la moglie ubriaca, which argh, I don’t think I know the English equivalent, but this is the translation: You can’t have a full cask and a drunked wife.


(You don't know how weirded out I was with all the talk of Draco and domination, though. If you know what I mean. *g*)

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

Excellent essay.

I think that one reason fanfic writers haven't tended to write "blue-blood" Slytherins is that they simply don't have experience with blue-blood culture. In fact, a lot of blue-bloods don't--a lot of contemporary rich kids, even from "old money" disdain the sophisticated manners and behave as Draco does.

Of course, rude aristocrats have always existed, though they are not, theoretically, supposed to. Malfoy's behavior doesn't surprise me, and if he's the "high-ranking" Slytherin in his year, then he'll be followed anyway.

I think the so-far mythic "good Slytherin" is likely to be a noblesse oblige aristocrat.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

I think the so-far mythic "good Slytherin" is likely to be a noblesse oblige aristocrat.

I agree. And also about many blue blood kids today probably not playing the part in a stereotypical way. In fact, that's one of the things I always find kind of funny about the Common Room scene in CoS. A lot of people have said Tom Felton's accent isn't posh enough, but I always assume Draco's kind of putting it on because it sounds cooler.:-)

[adolfa.livejournal.com]

This is a really excellent essay - some very good points made - but I just couldn't help thinking that, well, they're children. Although we in the fandom may analyze every single one of their actions, I doubt they themselves do, which therefore makes all our speculation moot, doesn't it? *laughs*

I mean, what you've said is nice in theory, but really, the Slytherins are just kids, not little politicians. I doubt they actually have a "code" or even care more than the standard amount about the image they project. I'm not accusing you of doing this, but if the Gryffindors are allowed to be normal kids but the Slytherins need to be psychoanalyzed and made out to be characters out of, well, Dangerous Liaisons, to use an example you brought up - well, isn't that just furthering the distinction and prejudice between the two houses? Marking Slytherin as 'abnormal'? Really, they're just teenagers.

(Which is not to say that their characters shouldn't be explored! Just. You know. Sometimes they might not have a political agenda behind it all.)

[moojja.livejournal.com]

I don't think they have a code that is written out, as much as a social expectation, and social rules. I doubt they (the children) know why they act the way they act, or can explain the social rules, but they still follow it.

I think teenagers, and children cares a lot about the image that they project. It's less about political agenda, as much as fitting in, or hope for the respect of parents. Besides, children often mimic the political agenda of their parents, without fully understanding it.

[kylandra.livejournal.com]

Wonderful post! I think you've really hit on something here with the Slytherins and hierarchy. Draco really does have a lot more respect for positions of authority (though not necessarily the people who hold them, such as Hagrid or Dumbledore) than, say, Harry or Gred & Forge do.

I really wish that we could see more of the internal works of Slytherin.

I could see the Slytherins working to one-up or "backstab" each other to a certain extent, but I don't think of it in the way a lot of the standard portrayals are. I think it would be less of an "omg ebil stabbity stab" way and more of a "[insert person/family here] is such a bunch of ridiculous gits and once I get [insert title/connection/whatever] I'll show them up."

Ultimately I'm sure there's quite a lot of good-natured ribbing in Slytherin, which I would love to see. Because even strict hierarchies have some interesting flexibility, especially when you get people of around the same standing together who need much less to defer and censor themselves. I mean, you know there are those people that are crazy or stupid or whatever, and a total embarrasment--or somebody's got that one silly drunken uncle or something that everybody laughs at--but they're still of the proper sort.

Okay, so that's not really coherent at all. Damn.

I wish Rowling would show some more subtlety and detail of the class system, though I understand that since it's from Harry's POV she doesn't. Harry has to learn all the basics, he'd totally miss subtle insults or whatever getting thrown around, and she'd need to write endless explanations of the social structure--which could be interesting, but exposition dumps are not generally the way to go about such things. Hmmm.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah--I mena, within that house you'd get the usual personality clashes and friendships and weird things. I'd love to see it myself. Particularly when you figure Harry has other things to worry about than his social life while at school, so we don't see a lot of that in Gryffindor. But the Slytherins would be probably mostly concentrated on that.

It's like the scene in the Common Room in CoS. Some people see Draco as being so "mean" to Crabbe and Goyle when he says the thing about if Goyle was any slower he'd be going backwards, but that's nothing compared to the things some of my guy friends say to each other. Plus they miss the fact that Ron and Harry, because they *aren't* Crabbe and Goyle are probably acting particularly stupid.

But it probably would be a story in itself--which is what fanfic is for, I guess!

[asphodeline.livejournal.com]

a really interesting essay. I don't think I have anything new to add but it's going to be running round my head all day now!
I particularly like the Dangerous Liaisons image - definitely more appropriate!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[sabethea.livejournal.com]

if you could post this at ,lj user="hp_conversation">, it'd be really appreciated there, i'm sure :)