The man who didn't come to dinner

[sistermagpie]

I had a stray thought today while reading the various theories of Sirius being poisoned, mostly about why I like

Personally, in case anyone's interested, I don't think Sirius was poisoned, nor do I think he was acting reckless when he died. I tend to think that line about the potion is there so that *Harry* can start suspecting Snape of doing some reckless poisoning later, if it's there for any reason at all. Or perhaps the potion will come up later. Heh. It's like fanfic. Everybody knows when Snape introduces a potion in class *somebody* will be accidentally ingesting it by the end of the fic, and it will probably lead to sex somehow.

Anyway, one thing that's been brought up with regards to Snape poisoning someone is his not eating any food at Grimmauld Place--something one might avoid if one knew the food was poisoned. I think again, that would be a little too obvious, like in We Have Always Lived In The Castle when a character is widely considered a murderer because her family was poisoned through the sugar bowl and everyone knows Constance never takes sugar. Regardless, what's interesting is how the topic of Snape's not eating has become an issue.

Technically, I don't think we know he doesn't eat anything at Grimmauld Place, though I suspect he doesn't. I think we're just told he "never stays for dinner." People have said, reasonably, that he doesn't stay for dinner because he doesn't want to socialize with these people any more than he has to. For all we know he's also got a truckload of other responsibilities somewhere. Maybe he's moonlighting at a fast food place in Hogsmeade. We don't know.

But I realized another reason I like the idea of Snape not eating at the place. I'm pretty sure there's a passage in The Count of Monte Cristo, that deals with the hero not eating. Now, I read CoMC (hmm. same initials as Care of Magical Creatures...) in French so for all I know I made up the entire scene through my bad translation and Edmund really refused to remove his galoshes indoors, but I seem to remember that what happened was the Count went to a party at the home of his former fiancé and her husband, one of the conspirators who got him sent to prison for 19 years. Mercedes, his former love, recognizes him as Edmund. She keeps the secret but gets very upset when he refuses an hors d'oeuvre. I mean, seriously upset. She's just frantic that he try her canapé--wtf?

Later it's revealed this is because refusing to eat is a point of honor--you do not accept food in your enemy's house. It appears to be something one could start a duel with if one wanted. Now, it's kind of funny to draw a parallel between Snape and Edmund, since in this story the character most like Edmund would be the guy who spent 13 years in prison for a crime he didn't commit and then broke out. Snape isn't responsible for putting Sirius in prison, though, and Sirius doesn't seem much for archaic traditions. Snape, otoh, I can definitely see holding a Monte Cristo-type grudge and privately vowing never to eat food served in the house of his enemy. Not that anyone would notice--well, other Slytherins might, but they’re not going to be invited to dinner by Molly either.

Snape is, after all, the character in canon who feels bound by a life debt because James Potter was moved to stop a prank by his best friend that never should have happened to begin with--I suspect if there were a fair court of law about such things Snape would be cleared of any life debtedness. Harry, by contrast, appears to feel under no such obligation to Snape for his protection. So if somebody were going to do something like this it would be Snape, imo. I doubt this was the author's intention, but it just seems very Snape to me.

Comments

[jollityfarm.livejournal.com]

I simply thought he wouldn't want to be forced to be sociable not only with people who upset him by their very existence and nature, but with people who do their level best to upset him until he explodes. If it were me in such a situation, I'd be running out of that door, let me tell you. He can get food all over the damn place.

Plus, you know he'd be next to Mundungus Fletcher and Tonks, the former of whom probably dribbles and talks with his mouth full, and the latter of whom does that really weird nose thing during dinner, which wouldn't half put me off my potatoes. And she'd do his nose as well. Pointedly. And Ginny would giggle, and then there'd be Incident. Not to mention Words. Loud ones.

I can't help thinking that Severus, verbally unpleasant though he may be, hasn't really got the heart to do anything physical towards even his deadliest foes for no justifiable reason any more. Plus, you know Albus Dumbledore would have a really bewildering way of finding out about that sort of shit faster than you can say "and where were you with your mighty powers of observation when...?"

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! Oh my god, now I'm imagining all those things at the meal and...yes. There would be Incident. And Words. I mean, really, I don't feel we even need to hear Snape doesn't stay for dinner because it's Snape staying to dinner that would be hard to explain. Just picturing him sitting down between two other people makes one realize it would never work. It's like every movie scene involving a Strange Person at Dinner or Dinner With Strange People. I imagine he could hardly get anything down.

Plus, you know Albus Dumbledore would have a really bewildering way of finding out about that sort of shit faster than you can say "and where were you with your mighty powers of observation when...?"

Funny how that power of observation comes and goes, isn't it?

[jollityfarm.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is funny how he's been "watching Harry closer than he can imagine" (and did no one else get a sort of looking-at-you-through-the-bathroom-window vibe when Albus said that?) but still manages to miss all the various things that could have been prevented in OotP, not to mention the terrible things that happen to Slytherins.

When OotP first came out, it was the fashion to exclaim that the reason why Severus did not eat at no.12 was because he is a vampire and only eats the blood of innocents, presumably. Meanwhile, the reference to that potion was applied to Harry's behaviour. What short memories people have :/

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is funny how he's been "watching Harry closer than he can imagine" (and did no one else get a sort of looking-at-you-through-the-bathroom-window vibe when Albus said that?)

Well, NOW I do! Thanks a lot! ;)

[trobadora]

I can't help thinking that Severus, verbally unpleasant though he may be, hasn't really got the heart to do anything physical towards even his deadliest foes for no justifiable reason any more.

I think this is one of the reasons why Snape honestly believes he's a better person than Sirius - at least he never tried to kill anyone for no better reason than that they were annoying!

[tasogare-n-hime.livejournal.com]

I don't want to step on anybodies toes or anything but thats one of my pet peeves.
*at least he never tried to kill anyone for no better reason than that they were annoying!*
Ok we see the "He was trying to murder me" angle from Snape but other than that there is no indication ANYWHERE in the canon text that says Sirius wanted Severus dead. There is not much to prove he didn't ether but I think Remus even as spineless as he was back then would not have remained friends with Sirius if he had actually planed murder.

[trobadora]

You misunderstand me - I'm not saying that's how it was, I'm saying that's how Snape probably sees it! Myself, I don't think Sirius was planning murder at all, and I don't think Sirius's youthful wrongdoings are at all comparable to whatever Snape may have done as a Death Eater.

[tasogare-n-hime.livejournal.com]

Ah ok I see now. Sorry I just get so sick of people saying "Sirius = TEH EVOL because he picked on my favorite character !!11!!"(did I do that right? Net speak is like trying to write in hyroglyphs for me.) and making Snape out to some helpless victim who can do no wrong (which makes me even more mad because to me victimising Snape is an insult to his character.)

[trobadora]

We're in complete agreement there - I love Snape and Sirius both, but absolutely loathe victim!Snape and evil!Sirius.

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

No, Snape only joined the organization devoted to killing people because of their bloodlines, or because they didn't agree with their ideological orientation.

(No evidence as of yet for active participation, but JKR's "he would have seen things..." is awfully suggestive.)

:)

[trobadora]

I did mean it as Snape's self-justification, with no small part of delusion (denial) thrown in...

[straussmonster.livejournal.com]

I got that after the fact--my bad...

That said, I think that Snape is generally quite good at rationalizing the uncomfortable, and things contradicted by actually *looking* at the evidence, away--and perhaps I am less inclined to cut him slack on that because I am fairly sure that he knows he knows better than to do such. I want to give him that much credit, as he's a sharp boy. But I'm not sure--of course. None of us *know* Snape, so we're all quite possible of being wrong.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

That said, I think that Snape is generally quite good at rationalizing the uncomfortable.

Aren't we all? When it comes to ourselves, and the things that touch us most deeply, at least?

[trobadora]

Funny - I'm inclided to cut him *more* slack because I understand his rationalisations so well. He's far closer to me that way than the Gryffindors, who have their own delusions and rationalisations. I agree with you that he does know better, though. Another thing - I can deal with people going against their better knowledge much better than with those who *don't* seem to know any better, even though they should. My issues, not JKR's here, of course.

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

I can't help thinking that Severus, verbally unpleasant though he may be, hasn't really got the heart to do anything physical towards even his deadliest foes for no justifiable reason any more.

Hmmm. I agree with you, but I wonder if it's not so much that he doesn't have the heart, as he knows how badly any sort of phsyical display would be interpreted/received by Dumbledore and/or anyone else aware of his past history. I've always thought it rather significant that, for all his verbal/emotional abuse of Neville and Harry, and his hatred of Remus and Sirius, the only time he ever does anything physical to any of them in present-day canon* is the incident with Harry and the pensieve, when he was in an extreme rage.

I mean, I can *so* see Snape gleefully using Umbridge's pen with both Harry and Neville if he thought he could get away with it, you know? Or Filch's 'Old Punishments.'

*Excepting the Shrieking Shack scene, of course, but Snape thought Sirius was an escaped murderer and Remus his accomplice at the time...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's like Dumbledore says in PS, I think, that Snape has always disliked Harry, but he never wanted him dead. Clearly Snape is capable of great violence because he was a DE, but there are plenty of situations where he can be angry without wanting to kill anyone.

Of course, the thing with Sirius was when they were kids, which could also be a factor. He may still remember it as he was back then, when it was more about Sirius being able to do anything and still have everybody think it was sort of cute. So it's not necessarily about murder but humiliation, and the way Snape wasn't important enough to make that much of a fuss over.

[arclevel.livejournal.com]

Snape wasn't important enough to make that much of a fuss over.

I think that's an important point. Personally, I think that Sirius wasn't consciously trying to kill Snape, but that what he did nonetheless qualifies as attempted murder. Additionally, I think Snape, who's had a rough upbringing, and at this point has already considered his place in the war and knows James and Sirius's views of anyone who uses the Dark Arts, would be extraordinarily hard-pressed to see this as anything *but* attempted murder. But then, I also think there's a part of him that maybe wants to see it as attempted murder, because then, at least somebody cares, right? Enough to actually kill him, rather than just not think about it, which has got to be harder to take emotionally.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. Attempted murder, at least, is almost viewing Snape as an equal - he has to be eliminated, he's a threat to MWPP.
The alternative is much more humiliating - it's all one big joke; Sirius not only didn't view Snape as a threat, but thought that the idea of him being scared, possibly injured was funny; and James Potter is forced to rescue helpless Snape like a little child.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's how I see it too. I don't think Sirius had murder on his mind at all, but I would HATE to have been Snape in that situation. I imagine he wound up feeling like Dumbledore was almost in on the joke too--I mean, feeling like the Gryffindors were just one big happy family and one of the boys had done something rather naughty but there there, wasn't James fantastic and let's all have cocoa. And meanwhile here's Snape who probably got scolded for trying to get the Gryffs in trouble (Dumbledore does tend to have quite the double standard on sneaking and initiative that way) and joshed about not taking everything so seriously and let's praise James some more. There are so many things for him to feel bitter about.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

And meanwhile here's Snape who probably got scolded for trying to get the Gryffs in trouble (Dumbledore does tend to have quite the double standard on sneaking and initiative that way)

I'm now imagining a McGonagall style 'Well, then you both get in trouble' resolution, with Sirius and James smirking and Snape PLOTTING TO KILL THEM ALL!11 ;)

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

It was more about Sirius being able to do anything and still have everybody think it was sort of cute.

Heh. *coughs at Harry* Oh, the parallels.

So it's not necessarily about murder but humiliation, and the way Snape wasn't important enough to make that much of a fuss over.

It kinda reminds me of a more serious version of the Buckbeak incident.
Dangerous animal, only threatening to certain people (because of course, MWPP were safe around Werewolf!Remus, presuming the prank was post-Animagus transformations.
Which may account for the outright stupidity of the prank - 'Why, me old mate Remus' ((why is Theoretical!Sirius in my head is a Cockney, I don't know)) 'wouldn't hurt anyone! He's always fine with us!'
And with all the PoA DVD furore, I forgot one of the parts I hated most - Buckbeak after unleashing talons, goes up to Harry and nuzzles him. Aw. You see? It only attacks meanies! Poor fluffy ickle Buckbeak.)
And of course, in both cases, the victim bears responsibility for their own troubles - Snape got lured, but it was his own spite in wanting to catch out the loveable MWPP that caused his experience.
Draco didn't know the animal was dangerous, but it was him insulting it that caused his injury.
And again, in both cases, the victim's undeniable responsibility is blown up.
Not only are they not victims at all - the victims are viewed James (risked his life) and the attacking animals themselves; but the meagre amount of suffering acknowledged to them is attributed to them, with the rest dismissed as exaggeration ("For god's sake's, man, it's a silly grudge!")
I mean, I don't think that the Prank was attempted murder, and I don't think 'Oh poor tragic Snape/Draco, how they've suffered' but I do think that they were probably very frightened (dude, you let James Potter help you/Hagrid carry you? You probably truly believe you're dying!), that their bitterest enemies saw them at their worst, and that they have a point: everything was whitewashed away for our loveable heroes by Machievelli Good Old Albus.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yes! Like I said above, it would be like having something happen to you and then you're in this room of jolly Gryffindors and everyone's laughing about it and congratulating the person you're the most angry at.

It's sort of like how in a conversation recently people were referring to the "charmed circle"--oh, it was the one about Snape being redeemed by love, which always gets into this idea that Harry's greatest gift is somehow being deserving of love in ways other people aren't, or able to love in ways other people aren't, and unfortunately for all the talk about Slytherins freezing themselves out with their dreadful views on who should be accepted into society, it's more these people that seem to put themselves above the rest of the world, somehow.

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

it's more these people that seem to put themselves above the rest of the world, somehow.

And i think that JKR is pointing that out. Remember, the chamred circle is broken- even Harry sees it in that picture that Moody gives to him- all these smiling people, and their lives came crashing down on them. Now, they are ina wacky, dirty house, with many of the 'old gang' really not able to do much.

JKR is saying the old, 'arent we so precious and cool' attitude is not going to work. And all that shit you did to people, and never had the decency to admit to, or even be contrite about? Comes back like a tornado. I realluy think that for the adults at least recognition and forgiveness will be very important.( It has started already at the end of OOTP, with Dumbledore realising that he misread Snape quite a bit.)

[iczer6.livejournal.com]

Draco didn't know the animal was dangerous, but it was him insulting it that caused his injury.

But the thing is that Draco DID know Buckbeak was dangerous, Hagrid had just explained how to approach a Hippogriff and even had Harry demonstrate, Draco acted like an ass and got a well earned beat down, no sympathy from me.

[schtroumph-c.livejournal.com]

And like I heard somewhere (maybe in HPforGU), Snape is always trying to expells Harry while knowing DD will never do it. But when Umbridge is here, he has only one word to say and Harry is out.

And he never said the word.

For the pensieve scene, I even had the impression that Snape was near to be really violent (when he grabs him and begin to shout) and then, he push Harry far of him, and out of his sight.

Like if he knew that he'll be really dangerous and restrain himself just enought to let Harry far of him, of the danger.

At least, he know that he could be dangerous and try (a little) to stop himself before it's too late. But he doesn't managed to do it, so he just gain time and explode when he's alone.